It is so true that a game strictly built upon the concept of it's predecessor (not a bad thing IMO) was so 'revolutionary wow-factor'.
It had better graphix and a new setting though that must count for something!
So, looking back... was Super Mario 3D World's E3 reveal trailer really that bad?
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It had better graphix and a new setting though that must count for something!
Solid Samus
Banned
Did you miss the point earlier where I pointed out that 3D Mario games aren't the system sellers you think they are? And this game changing revolutionary wow factor business, I mean come on. What was Galaxy's 'revolutionary wow factor'?
Space?
Because you'll notice that the reason everyone gushed over Galaxy wasn't because of it's setting mainly but because its setting facilitated all sorts of new gameplay applications, a design philosophy that still stands with EAD today and believe it or not shines through in 3D World and in the variety of its levels and level designs. At this point you're literally saying that your beef with the game deals entirely with the visuals and that's unfair. It's also unfair to continuously act like an accessible, familiar 3D Multiplayer Mario game developed by EAD Tokyo with the same attention to level design and incredible, bombastic OST isn't or can't be seen as a game changer whatsoever. But shit, who knows. You've probably played tons of great co-op 3D platformers, right, with multiple instantly recognizable characters balanced with their own quirks for drop in drop out style multiplayer, with powerups that let you do shit like climb walls and clone yourself, a musical direction that can stand right alongside Galaxy 1 and 2 no problem, with level design that changes up on you and throws new gimmicks and ideas at you every other map. I don't see how anyone could find the sum of those things to be anywhere near 'fresh', right
ZombiePlatypus
Member
The visual-jump back then was still big enough to feel like the arrival of a new generation. It's not hardly enough to make a difference now, but it was a staggering difference during its day.
The whole playing around with gravity and changing orientations back and forth, 360 degrees was huge.
Well at least you're consistant
But... How is it a sideline game? It's just as important to the plot and evolution of the series as KH2 was (If not more so). Just because it doesn't have a 3 in? Or because it's on a handheld?
You have a proper mainline next gen Mario. Accept it. If you don't like it, or the direction it's taking, that's fine, completely understandable, but refusing to accept it as a mainline game because of stupid reasons is just silly. It's as much a main Mario game as Galaxy or Mario 64 ever were and to deny this just shows you don't understand the concept and meaning of the word 'mainline'.
All those things had been done before though, albiet not to the extent/quality that Galaxy did, but still done before.
I do sorta agree with this though, diminishing returns and all that. The small graphic boost compared to previous gens means gameplay innovation is even more important than ever and I haven't seen enough of that yet (Which ironically, 3DW seems to have in spades but doesn't seem to really count...)
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Well at least you're consistant
But... How is it a sideline game? It's just as important to the plot and evolution of the series as KH2 was (If not more so). Just because it doesn't have a 3 in? Or because it's on a handheld?
You have a proper mainline next gen Mario. Accept it. If you don't like it, or the direction it's taking, that's fine, completely understandable, but refusing to accept it as a mainline game because of stupid reasons is just silly. It's as much a main Mario game as Galaxy or Mario 64 ever were and to deny this just shows you don't understand the concept and meaning of the word 'mainline'.
We'll all see how this game is categorized once Nintendo gets around to releasing something that feels like a true mainline, nexgen sequel.
So now it has to 'feel' like it? You really don't understand do you? This is in everyway a true mainline, nexgen sequel, I don't get why you can't accept it but hey, I'm done trying to explain what those words mean.
I remember seeing this a lot as well, didn't know so much of GAF was so blind
It was plainly obvious from the first few seconds (That smoke!).But then, lots of people seem to forget Nintendo calling the Wii U a 'Brand new system' several times uring E3 so I'm not surprised.
Solid Samus
Banned
Well designed multiplayer 3D platforming is huge - how often do you see that? 80+ maps of the kinds of genius gameplay surprises Galaxy brought to the table is huge - how often do you see that? The sheer number of throwbacks across the entire IP in 3D World is huge despite new locales and themes - how often do you see that? Galaxy calibur soundtrack - how often do you see that? The option to play through a 3D platformer as any of a cast of characters that control differently and are well suited to and balanced for different kinds of platforming is huge - how often do you see that? No freshness there though, I've played that game before! lol. You're deliberately downplaying the things that this game has going for it that are actually fresh especially together because of superficial similarities to games in different genres or a handheld game that doesn't compare - 2D platforming multiplayer is a different beast entirely and 3D Land is slower paced with less momentum, fewer movement options, and far fewer powerups/stage gimmicks/level themes/enemies/etc. etc. it's not even comparable besides on a base level. Continuing to reiterate that it's not a 'true Mario' despite everything I've pointed out is just moving goalposts man. It's bursts of polished, varied, and extremely well designed platforming backed by wacky abilities, ever-changing art design and incredible music. Sounds like true Mario to me.
dirtywhirlwind
Member
Personally I thought it was the most fun looking game on E3. I will of course probably never play it though.
I remember seeing this a lot as well, didn't know so much of GAF was so blind
But then, lots of people seem to forget Nintendo calling the Wii U a 'Brand new system' several times uring E3 so I'm not surprised.
It looked like 3D Land a lot. Hype really blinds you and I was pretty confident we would see something better that looked better than Galaxy. The first trailer didn't...
All I needed to know was that that it was a continuation of 3D Lands style to be sold. It's an EAD tokyo game, so I didn't really need to see every level gimmick to know they would be there and it would be full of ideas
The gravity mechanics were absolutely amazing, but honestly a lot of the other new mechanics in galaxy were kindof shitty. The pointer stuff didn't add much, all the swooshing through space was pretty but rather pointless, the blue point&click stars were slow and boring, the spin attack was a bit of an improvement over the SM64 punches, but still not as pure as just having the jump attack
The gravity mechanics were absolutely amazing, but honestly a lot of the other new mechanics in galaxy were kindof shitty. The pointer stuff didn't add much, all the swooshing through space was pretty but rather pointless, the blue point&click stars were slow and boring, the spin attack was a bit of an improvement over the SM64 punches, but still not as pure as just having the jump attack
The Dutch Slayer
Member
YES!
For me it was, that first fall trailer, early October one that really convinced me.
The E3 one was boring and just did not show what the game was all about.
For me it was, that first fall trailer, early October one that really convinced me.
The E3 one was boring and just did not show what the game was all about.
SolarPowered
Member
It was really bad and and really boring. This and SSX had the worst reveals this generation. I was honestly ready to skip 3D World until the october trailer blew our minds.
Stiflers Mom
Banned
I expected something on the magnitude of the Galaxy games, and that trailer didn't deliver.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The first one? No
This one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLOKVABfrzw
Yeah, I honestly will. When I saw that I "got it", I was like "holy shit they're doing Galaxy level everything, but 3DLand style, I need this now". It was totally genuine, "this looks new and exciting and I want it" hype
ZombiePlatypus
Member
So now it has to 'feel' like it? You really don't understand do you? This is in everyway a true mainline, nexgen sequel, I don't get why you can't accept it but hey, I'm done trying to explain what those words mean.
I remember seeing this a lot as well, didn't know so much of GAF was so blind
But then, lots of people seem to forget Nintendo calling the Wii U a 'Brand new system' several times uring E3 so I'm not surprised.
Yes, nexgen games should feel nexgen. A new mainline entry should feel like a proper, new mainline entry, not a neat refinement.
Lordwindowlicker
Member
No, it not bad at all. It felt underwhelming at first, even to a Mario fan like me. But over time what they've shown has really just gotten better and better.
Scofield94941
Member
quick question. Wind waker HD came out at midnight of the day on eshop. Will SM3Dworld do the same? Getting it at midnight tonight will be amazing. I love not going to gamestop
I liked 3D World the first time I saw the trailer, and one could see the potential in it despite how it focused a bit more on the early pedestrian levels of the game. It just wasn't until the second trailer that we got to see more variety in platforming and power-up craziness that we got a better understanding of where EAD Tokyo was going with this game. EAD Tokyo underwhelmed us at first, but they've hit the ball out of the park since then.
Incitemaybe
Member
I've seen lots of Nintendo reveals, enough to know that we were getting to see some basic concepts first.
I don't comprehend people who saw it as a 3Dland rehash, even though I absolutely think 3DLand was an exceptionally solid game through both first set of Worlds and the second set.
So evolving the concept further on more powerful hardware was def going to deliver.
I was hyped!
I don't comprehend people who saw it as a 3Dland rehash, even though I absolutely think 3DLand was an exceptionally solid game through both first set of Worlds and the second set.
So evolving the concept further on more powerful hardware was def going to deliver.
I was hyped!
Solid Samus
Banned
Are you missing the point on purpose
ZombiePlatypus
Member
No I'm not. At the end of the day, this is exactly what it all boils down to. People can analyze and rationalize why we're getting what we're getting for days to make it seem justified. But, bottom line is, new gen = brand, spankin', new Mario like never before. 3DW (looks absolutely amazing), but it's nowhere near being that.
I'm not saying it looks anything less than spectacular and fantastic. All I'm saying is that it's just not on the same level of a gamechanging jump as M64/Sunshine/Galaxy. Again, this doesn't make it anywhere near being a not great game, but it also doesn't fit the bill when looking for that big, new, nexgen, mainline, proper Mario.
Solid Samus
Banned
Yeah, you're missing the point. You're right that it's not the same bombastic showing that Galaxy was but you're still discrediting it on aesthetics alone. Galaxy was groundbreaking in the same sense that 3D World can be considered groundbreaking because it still had a heavy reliance on a formula pioneered in Mario 64 that was enhanced by constant surprising tweaks to the gameplay formula. 3D World is packing the same kind of level design philosophy in a multiplayer game packed with content so to act like there's no jump there at all like you continue to do is a little tiresome.
This game receiving praises such as "The only TRUE next-gen offering this year" is making really hard for some to dis it: It's the first time I see the goal posts moving backwards!
Anyway, yes, the first trailer was... bland and too simple. Glad to see the game turn out to be a master piece. And damn you Nintendo, now I have to go and buy this game. I have promise, *promise* not to buy a platforming Mario game ever again.
Anyway, yes, the first trailer was... bland and too simple. Glad to see the game turn out to be a master piece. And damn you Nintendo, now I have to go and buy this game. I have promise, *promise* not to buy a platforming Mario game ever again.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Ok, I guess by your own definition, I "don't get" beefed up sideline games then.
I'm not saying it has to have 0 common threads to be revolutionary. Even M64 has ties and clear inheritance to the previous old-school Mario games. Despite having really neat, smaller new stuff though, 3DW feels like, for the most part, a collection of previous elements we've all seen and done before. I don't see a one, big, brand new concept to explore that'll propel the series forward like the previous, big three, nexgen Mario games had. This one comes across more like, Mario: The Greatest Hits.
Again, the the previous, big three games reinforced what they were and got majority of fans excited, (without this kind of justified backlash) just from the trailers alone.
What looked bad were the fools trashing EAD Tokyo.
C'mon. It's not like it's uncommon for Nintendo to reveal new games with boring trailers. People see a trailer consisting of a couple of basic levels because they don't want to spoil much that far away from launch and suddenly everyone thinks the whole game is going to be that boring.
C'mon. It's not like it's uncommon for Nintendo to reveal new games with boring trailers. People see a trailer consisting of a couple of basic levels because they don't want to spoil much that far away from launch and suddenly everyone thinks the whole game is going to be that boring.
Solid Samus
Banned
I've explained to you over and over just how disingenuous it is to consider this game nothing more than a 'beefed up sideline game'. It's like saying Galaxy is nothing more than beefed up Mario 64 despite the number of changes and refinements that set it apart from its predecessors. Again, you continue to downplay or ignore the things this game has going for it that set it apart form both 3D Land and from every other 3D game in the series. By manipulating the connotations behind the idea that it's just 3D Land made bigger you successfully prove that you don't even know much about the game you're talking about, though if that's anyone's fault it's Nintendo's I suppose.
Pretty much this. After Galaxy, where would Mario go next? People's minds went to "Universe" which is such a grand scale that nobody really knew how exactly to comprehend it. That's what people were expecting, something beyond comprehension, beyond speculation. Instead, we got what looked like a sequel to a 3DS game on the Wii U. Why should we care about that?
Good to see that it's an amazing game, but that doesn't stop people from wanting something more, something new.
Freezie KO
Banned
You don't see it often. But that doesn't mean people have to care about this optional mode.
Unfortunately, you don't see 80+ fun levels often, but that doesn't mean it's some big change in the series, which is ZombiePlatypus's main argument. 80+ fun Mario levels is the baseline. That's where we all say, "Okay, this is a Mario game. Now what makes this Mario game unique?"
How often do you see Nintendo doing throwbacks to old games? Pretty much every game they release.
There are tons of great soundtracks in gaming. I'm not going to judge this one as I haven't listened to it in full yet, but this is a silly thing to point out when you're complaining about supposedly "superficial" elements.
The fact that 3D World's mechanics and design are clearly based off 3D Land is way more substantive than the soundtrack.
They just took the SMB2 characters with the same abilities and put them in 3D space.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
As I've said before, it has a bunch of new elements (as any new game should have some new elements) but nothing feels like a big enough, central, brand new idea.
Waluigilicious
Member
It made it look like 3D Mario was taking the route of 2D Mario in the sense that it was becoming its own "NSMB" series.
That's all that there's to it really.
Edit: Oh and the fact that it came after Galaxy and Galaxy 2, and on Nintendo's first HD console didn't help either. Had a lot to live up to.
That's all that there's to it really.
Edit: Oh and the fact that it came after Galaxy and Galaxy 2, and on Nintendo's first HD console didn't help either. Had a lot to live up to.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Or that it followed NSMBWiiU. "Oh, you're tired of direct sequels/massive expansions of parallel Mario titles that already exist? Well guess what we have coming next!"
lazybones18
Banned
Was hyped from the very beginning even if I was only gonna do single player
Solid Samus
Banned
As though it's fair to act that people aren't going to care about it either. Multiplayer has proven to be a big selling point for 2D Mario and the novelty of playing a 3D Mario in multiplayer is bound to attract people.
Core gamers so cynical that they honestly believe an incredibly charming multiplayer 3D Mario is something people aren't going to care to play and experiment with, something that has zero potential to excite anyone.
You'd think level design that differs wildly from everything that came before it would be enough to consider this Mario game unique before you even touch on the multiplayer. It's still a 3D Mario game that differs greatly from everything before it and is only vaguely familiar if you're one of the relative few who have actually played 3D Land. And even then the level design is far different, far more creative and varied and leaning toward faster-paced platforming and non-stop Galaxy esque gimmickry and sandbox style experimentation than 3D Land's ever was. Constantly surprising ala Galaxy despite its unimposing demeanor.
And you think EAD Tokyo would have built up more than enough fucking goodwill at this point after a generation of Mario unprecedented in both quality and quanitity to produce a less visually imposing Mario that doesn't sacrifice level design creativity or most of the amazing shit that made their last two games great but has the potential to attract the large Mario userbase at large more toward the 3D series. but nope. One aesthetic miss based on your metric, and all of a sudden one of the best development studios in the world has lost all their luster, leading to a series of complaints that turned out to be factually false and leaving one unsubstantiated superficial argument left to use to detract from the quality of the game.
Once again manipulating connotations to diminish what 3D World actually has to offer. I watched most of the game in two streams and let me tell you it's far more than the 3D Land up rezzing you constantly claim it is even if the basic formula has base similarities. You'd think that nearly every single review reiterating this would be enough to grant a shed of potential truth to it dawg. And I mention these side elements because they are still elements that people had been bashing up until now.
I'm going to give you a minute to think on how much of a hilarious oversimplification of the thought that goes into platforming design this is.
Hey at this point my opinion is prolly grating on you as much as yours is on me so I'm just gonna step back from here on and let the quality of the game speak for itself.
The initial reveal wasn't bad so much as it just looked bland and like a really sterile Mario game. It looked like 3D Land without much added to it except a new power-up, which wasn't anywhere near good enough when this is coming after something as full of imagination as Galaxy. They've turned it around the last few months but damn that thing just looked disappointing when they first showed it.
MisterHero
Super Member
It wasn't bad at all. The [now] majority has cut off the idea that Nintendo could surprise anyone with their games.
Green Mamba
Member
After reading of the ways that such and such could not be done because of multiplayer, I really hope they do not see this as an integral feature of 3D Mario that cannot be dropped going forward.
Also, trailer sucked. Like a kick in the nuts. All this hype built up and... it's a sequel to the worst 3D Mario. Huzzah! Pity, after all of these trailers showing its creativity they haven't fixed the formula's number one problem.
Also, trailer sucked. Like a kick in the nuts. All this hype built up and... it's a sequel to the worst 3D Mario. Huzzah! Pity, after all of these trailers showing its creativity they haven't fixed the formula's number one problem.
It wasn't bad, it just wasn't particularly inspiring. It looked like it lacked ambition. However, it's clear that the trailer only showed about 10% of the game, and what looks to be the very early stages. Once people realized that yes, this is another really ambitions and creative Mario game, they got really excited.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
I always suspected multiplayer (as fun as it is) would probably eat away at grander aspects of a single player Mario when making the game, but didn't realize they talked about it. What did they mention?
Well, that bit is definitely subjective.
Solid Samus
Banned
If we're talking about reviews - mostly that aesthetically it's obvious that the level design was built to accommodate up to four people despite being tightly designed for even a lone player, and that despite that fact it doesn't take away from the sheer joy of the game's platforming and various level gimmicks. It seems that the inclusion of multiplayer doesn't have as much of a detrimental effect on the single player experience as NSMB Wii/U's large styled maps did because the extra player space naturally alotted by a third dimension keeps map from having to be too large to function well in both modes of play.
And I guarantee that if Nintendo's first round of media on 3D World wasn't so poor and they came out with the big guns from day one there would have been justified excitement in place of the justified backlash. You think that if the second trailer was Nintendo's big e3 reveal people would have been claiming it wasn't fresh or that it was a simple 3D Land up rezzing? Doubt it.
It's totally fair to point out that Nintendo's marketing abilities are shit but lets not continue to act like this game doesn't have any defining features just because of its initial underwhelming showing. Calling it a 'best of' doesn't even make sense, either. I challenge you to find one of the 60 FPS streams and watch it for a while. Left and right you'll be seeing new Mario art styles, new level design concepts, all sorts of genuinely surprising shit that runs at an incredible clip and looks genuinely fun at its core.
jts
...hate me...
I didn't know that this was Super Mario Sunshine 2.
Oh right, it's not. Nintendo haven't touched that stinker with a 10ft pole since. And thank god for that.
thecouncil
Banned
OP uses the words "return of" a lot and I think that was the problem. Lots of "been there, done that" going on.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Yup, basically.