How is the game less consistent? There's no randomness in how frames are calculated. On the flip side, you can say that free overpowered dodges and easy to backstab enemies are bad design.
Dark souls 2 is like a really great dark souls cover band. Or maybe like queen playing with Adam lambert. Naw, not that good. But still good.
I'm confident if you dodge intelligently based on your agility, the hit boxes won't feel terrible. And if you boost your agility way up there, then you'll feel as untouchable as you did in Dark Souls (which could very likely be what made those hitboxes feel better).
I always play offline, and I still get hitbox problems.Because I think it's worth stating: Dark Souls 2's hitboxes are problematic because of netcode, not because of the hitboxes themselves. Which isn't an easy thing to explain, sadly. Play the game offline (not connected to the internet - not connected to Namco's servers) for a while and you will notice that suddenly all the hitbox shenanigans go away. For some reason the player hitbox is connected to where the server thinks you are, not where you think you are.
Also, Dark Souls 2 is a superior game. It has better mechanics and less poise garbage, which automatically makes it better in my book.
Are you disconnected from the internet? Because if you're connected you're still connected to Namco's servers (this occurs even if you play the game in "offline mode"). There's also a 60FPS issue with the PC version (which is why the weapon degrades so quickly on the PC version).I always play offline, and I still get hitbox problems.
Nope. I'm completely disconnected. =/Are you not connected to the internet? Because if you are you're still connected to Namco's servers. There's also a 60FPS issue with the PC version (which is why the weapon degrades so quickly on the PC version).
"Bad game design" lol. Not a very convincing argument.
Yes, Dark Souls is an action game, one that depends on visible and manipulable stats through a leveling mechanic. In game A you are given x number of invincibility frames and in game B you are given Y number of invincibility frames, but in a game where the nature of a dodge can be adjusted, then you'll get both depending on your build. In the end, it's not only a matter of hitboxes, but the stat that assigns the length of the time the player cannot be hit.
How is the game less consistent? There's no randomness in how frames are calculated. On the flip side, you can say that free overpowered dodges and easy to backstab enemies are bad design.
Interesting. Relative to how you felt it was in Dark Souls 1? I mean, I never felt the hitboxes were bad in Dark Souls 1 either but there were still some moves where I felt the hitboxes were garbage.Nope. I'm completely disconnected. =/
But then again, I may not be having it as badly as some of you guys are. It's enough to notice though.
If you're on PC, the other thing you might be experiencing is the 60FPS bug. It basically screws with active frames of certain moves as well as your own hitboxes and makes everything move much faster as a result (meaning that you may both be hit by things or hit things while the animation has already finished because the active frames aren't synchronized properly).Nope. I'm completely disconnected. =/
But then again, I may not be having it as badly as some of you guys are. It's enough to notice though.
I-frames on the roll changing based on stats (and with it starting out pretty shit) was a really poor decision. You don't think the length of invulnerability should be set and the enemies designed around that set roll - like an action game?
I would say that fact there's little visual representation of i-frames, before or after they've changed, is more of a problem than varying i-frames. This means even in the best case scenario you have to do learning the hard way. The actual variance I don't see an issue in.
The difference between the rolls is not so great where the enemies become incompatible with low or high AGL (or even low/high encumbrance). It merely comes down to a matter of changing the risk-reward equation and having to balance these elements out for build construction (as opposed to getting it for free). In Dark Souls II you don't get to become a ninja for free, so don't try to play like a ninja and take wild chances before you've become agile. I would say that it is more reasonable to adapt to your current i-frames than it is to lament the fact they can be improved.
DS1 for me.Plus, DS2 was a bit annoying and even more difficult to play for me as I was playing with mouse and keyboard, just like DS1 in fact. Surprisingly, in spite of the improvements, I found DS2 a lot harder to play that way, mostly because the mouse input always seemed to wait whether you'd double click or only do a single click, which led to a significant latency in combat.
So why was no one complaining about them in Dark Souls 1? You couldn't see iframes in either of the first two games either. Much like in Dark Souls 2, you had to feel out your iframes, much like a player in a fighting game feels out an opponent.Imru’ al-Qays;123763001 said:How're you supposed to adapt to your current i-frames if you can't see them? If i-frames were clearly visible like DS1's weight classes I don't think people would complain about them as much. But they're not, and agility is awful game design for that reason.
Imru’ al-Qays;123763001 said:How're you supposed to adapt to your current i-frames if you can't see them? If i-frames were clearly visible like DS1's weight classes I don't think people would complain about them as much. But they're not, and agility is awful game design for that reason.
So why was no one complaining about them in Dark Souls 1? You couldn't see iframes in either of the first two games either. Much like in Dark Souls 2, you had to feel out your iframes, much like a player in a fighting game feels out an opponent.
If anything, poise still remains one of the worst game design decisions in the Souls series. It's a far bigger problem than iframes.
When I said current, I meant "base", as in what you are currently used to before you change them. The point being you should dodge conservatively until you can easily eyeball the difference overtime (from my personal experience a handful or two of points is easily felt).
Also when I said visible, I meant when the character is in an invulnerable stat as opposed to set classes of invulnerability. That would still require deliberate testing or "learning the hard way" to get a grasp on. Seeing your AGL stat (or Evasion+ in Monster Hunter) go up a few points is also about as visual in that respect.
I think this is actually backwards. With a tight window on your rolls you're forced to get better at timing your rolls. When the timing eases up you're allowed to become lazier.Imru al-Qays;123764309 said:Because your i-frames in DS1 and Demon's were consistent. You needed to get a feel for them, but once you got a feel for them you could carry that knowledge with you through the rest of the game.
DS2 i-frames are not consistent. You start the game with shit i-frames and eventually you get more, but that takes time and stat investment, so you're constantly relearning the timings on your rolls.
"Bad game design" lol. Not a very convincing argument.
Yes, Dark Souls is an action game, one that depends on visible and manipulable stats through a leveling mechanic. In game A you are given x number of invincibility frames and in game B you are given Y number of invincibility frames, but in a game where the nature of a dodge can be adjusted, then you'll get both depending on your build. In the end, it's not only a matter of hitboxes, but the stat that assigns the length of the time the player cannot be hit.
When the hit is registering before the enemy is swinging it's definitely a netcode problem. (see rubber banding)In game A you can see when you have successfully dodged an attack.
In game B even if your character appears to have successfully dodged an attack, because of stat Y is not at X or hitbox problems you are punished.
The player should never have been hit in the first place because their character is not even close to the weapon so its a hitbox problem.
There's also stuff like this:
You know even with these severe hitbox problems I would be still be okay with the game........if the game didn't have so many enemies have insane tracking skills. enemies having seemingly unlimited stamina and the game just chucking enemy hordes in a sad attempt at making the game "hard".
Because I think it's worth stating: Dark Souls 2's hitboxes are problematic because of netcode, not because of the hitboxes themselves. Which isn't an easy thing to explain, sadly. Play the game offline (not connected to the internet - not connected to Namco's servers) for a while and you will notice that suddenly all the hitbox shenanigans go away. For some reason the player hitbox is connected to where the server thinks you are, not where you think you are.
How is the game less consistent? There's no randomness in how frames are calculated. On the flip side, you can say that free overpowered dodges and easy to backstab enemies are bad design.
Yes, and I totally agree! It's really, really stupid! I still have no idea why this is the case, and it drives me up a wall.Wow.
... Wow. This is genuinely one of the dumbest things I have ever heard (not you, the game). Are you completely sure of this? It's so mind-bogglingly stupid of a design decision I can hardly believe it.
I would say it's an issue of player tracking enemy attacks, which are definitely a thing in Dark Souls 2.Player feedback.
I find it immensely more difficult to roll consistently in DS2.This could be due to invincibility window being much more narrow as well as active enemy attack animations and tracking being quite ridiculous in DS2.
Because I think it's worth stating: Dark Souls 2's hitboxes are problematic because of netcode, not because of the hitboxes themselves. Which isn't an easy thing to explain, sadly. Play the game offline (not connected to the internet - not connected to Namco's servers) for a while and you will notice that suddenly all the hitbox shenanigans go away. For some reason the player hitbox is connected to where the server thinks you are, not where you think you are.
Also, Dark Souls 2 is a superior game. It has better mechanics and less poise garbage, which automatically makes it better in my book.
I find it immensely more difficult to roll consistently in DS2. This could be due to invincibility window being much more narrow as well as active enemy attack animations and tracking being quite ridiculous in DS2.
It's the only explanation for rubber banding aside from being trapped inside of an animation, which frequently isn't the case on many moves. Granted, the hitboxes may just be that ridiculous, but in the case of stuff like a mining pick hitting you? Unless lag or server placement-based mapping is being used, I can't see it as being possible. FPSes do this too quite frequently. Where you are is determined entirely by the server unless you're on a LAN. Regardless, I have found hitboxes to be variable while online, whereas they have no variance while offline (though I haven't tested it with every enemy).This couldn't possibly be the case. My internet connection is extremely shitty (if I run a Speedtest during the evening hours, my ping to the nearest server will be something like 300ms) and I don't have many problems with hitboxes. If what you're saying is true, the game would be unplayable for me.
It's also the only thing that explains so many conflicting reports, both in video and in people talking about the game. Again, there may even be something that triggers it, turning it on or off, I'm really not sure. I'm just sure that there is hitbox variance when canned animations definitely shouldn't show such variance.Yeah, I don't buy the online thing at all because a connection like mine would be having "hitbox" issues in every fight (and stuff like PvP makes that especially obvious) if that was the case and I don't.
This couldn't possibly be the case. My internet connection is extremely shitty (if I run a Speedtest during the evening hours, my ping to the nearest server will be something like 300ms) and I don't have many problems with hitboxes. If what you're saying is true, the game would be unplayable for me.
it was a joke on Riposte's name >_>
Imru’ al-Qays;123764309 said:Because your i-frames in DS1 and Demon's were consistent. You needed to get a feel for them, but once you got a feel for them you could carry that knowledge with you through the rest of the game.
DS2 i-frames are not consistent. You start the game with shit i-frames and eventually you get more, but that takes time and stat investment, so you're constantly relearning the timings on your rolls.
The difference is that in Demon's and DS1 you learn the hard way once. Once you understand the i-frames you know how to roll, period. In DS2 this isn't the case.
In my defense I was reading on my tablet and was on my side in bed at the time I totally missed that.
You couldn't possibly be more wrong.
DS1 had DWGR (0-25%), Fast (0-25%), Mid (26-50%), and Slow (50-100%) roll animations with each different i-frame tiers in between (usually halfway) while each animation has different wind up, active, and recovery frames.
In DS2 each roll animation is the same until from 0-70% while weight determines roll speed and distance and Agi determines how many I-frames the roll has. I-frames always start on the same frame of animation regardless of weight and agi and because of the wind ups, delays, and tracking of enemy attacks roll speed and distance are now just as important as I-frames themselves. 70% and higher is fat rolling.
Imru al-Qays;123764309 said:Because your i-frames in DS1 and Demon's were consistent. You needed to get a feel for them, but once you got a feel for them you could carry that knowledge with you through the rest of the game...
The difference is that in Demon's and DS1 you learn the hard way once. Once you understand the i-frames you know how to roll, period. In DS2 this isn't the case.
In my defense I was reading on my tablet and was on my side in bed at the time I totally missed that.
You couldn't possibly be more wrong.
DS1 had DWGR (0-25%), Fast (0-25%), Mid (26-50%), and Slow (50-100%) roll animations with each different i-frame tiers in between (usually halfway) while each animation has different wind up, active, and recovery frames.
And Psycho_Mantis, animations and frame data are still being worked on, in some cases on an individual basis (sanatier's spear for example), and a lot of what you posted is already outdated. From Software just released a major set of calibrations t hat fundamentally changed the way the entire game is balanced by tweaking nearly every item and spell in the game in one way or another. I know why you're posting these but realize that until they are finished you really can't compare the two games right now. That version isn't the version of the game people are going to remember and in some cases the version of the game you're posting isn't even the version of the game being played right now.
It's the only explanation for rubber banding aside from being trapped inside of an animation, which frequently isn't the case on many moves. Granted, the hitboxes may just be that ridiculous, but in the case of stuff like a mining pick hitting you? Unless lag or server placement-based mapping is being used, I can't see it as being possible.
Dark Souls 1 was still very much a game of guesswork, hoping, praying and luck. Poise was the root cause of it, but dodge tiers generally were more problematic because the animations for them were never representative of the i-frames they had in the first place. Dark Souls 2 solves the first problem and mitigates the second by managing i-frames into tiers established by stats, allowing them to be discussed with greater specificity and optimized to a greater degree as a result.I believe this is what Imru’ al-Qays is talking about. These 4 catagories are constant. And once your get used to them, you knew how to react. Then it becomes a game of skill, rather than guess-work, hoping, praying, and luck![]()
It's possible, but I was informed about it by a friend after I had beaten the game and when going back and playing it offline, I suddenly noticed that the hitboxes seemed a lot more "fair." I then did some testing on enemies and found that after going back online, their hitboxes changed. Just, straight up the enemies would hit me more consistently doing the same thing. I don't have the video recording skills of others so I can't really show it, but I do hope others will do so.Was this theory based on some inside info for how the game works or just based on observation and logical deduction? Unfortunately I would also have to call shenanigans if there wasn't some supporting evidence based on my own experiences. Part of the problem is that some of the enemies are just very poorly programmed with how their damage is tied to their animations. For example, the "swollen mongrel" giant dogs found in the gutter and Aldia's corrosion pit have a biting lunge attack that deals damage to the player before the animation noticeably activates. Maybe some of these issues have been patched or addressed, maybe there is some other netcode voodoo going on, but there definitely have been problems with just how the game itself was programmed.
You can at least make a case with the other two (especially the Mimic which is one of the ones that's actually legitimately broken), but I don't see anything wrong here. The whole gimmick of these enemies is that their melee attacks are incredibly fast and long range but have really obvious start-up, and enemies in Souls have always ignored walls most of the time unless it 100% blocks them. Get good and block or dodge.
This is exactly the problem, though. In Dark Souls, there are four specific rolling conditions, as you said. DWGR, Fast, Mid, and Slow. With this specificity in mind, the developers are able to (and did) design the entire game around the mechanic with very little variance to worry about. If you are able to Fast or DWRG roll, you will be able to dodge pretty much everything in the game without issue if you master the timing of your roll. A Mid or Slow, on the other hand, might get you in trouble - but then, the difference is immediately apparent to the player as soon as their Equip Load passes a certain point, allowing them to adjust their playstyle to easily accommodate. It's a reliable and intuitive system, and one of the backbones of the Souls combat system entirely.
Dark Souls 2 does away with this, though, because there is simply so much variance forced onto the player that it becomes confusing and frustrating. Look to Page 7, where Riposte asks Psycho_Mantis what the player's AGL was. This is a question that should never have to be asked. When the player, as well as observers, are left unsure about how the player's current rolling conditions will work, the system is flawed.
I don't know or care how many individual i-frames it takes to dodge Artorias' sword in Dark Souls. I do know that a fast roll will work, because of the immediate feedback the game grants me. In Dark Souls II though? I don't fucking know - 50% Equip Load and 22 AGL might work I guess? But then, if it does, what about 21 AGL and 60%? I don't know. I can't know. I have to get a feel for it literally every time one of those stats is altered.
I believe this is what Imru’ al-Qays is talking about. These 4 catagories are constant. And once your get used to them, you knew how to react. Then it becomes a game of skill, rather than guess-work, hoping, praying, and luck![]()
nah, I beat and platnuimed DeS within the last year and that game's feels anything but low quality. Hell, in some ways it feels infinitely more polished that both its "sequels".
And I'm not talking anything away from both Dark 1 and 2, as I've greatly enjoyed both (I still think the first half of DrK1 is not only the best Souls experience, but one of the greatest gaming experiences I've ever had as a gamer), but neither game was as consistent in quality as Demon's was, world tendency shenanigans notwithstanding.