So now that the dust has settled a bit - Dark Souls 1 or 2, which is better?
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Imru al-Qays
Banned
Just because there's no randomness doesn't mean it's not inconsistent. The added i-frames are completely invisible to the player.
Deified Data
Banned
Since this is less a thread about which Souls game you prefer and more an indictment of Dark Souls 2 (which is understandable - as a sequel to one of the best games ever made it had a lot to prove), I'll detail a list of things the sequel gets right and things the sequel gets wrong. Then, maybe at the end of it I'll have a decent idea of which game I prefer. Not likely, but let's give it a shot.
What Dark Souls II got RIGHT
What Dark Souls II got WRONG
So which one do I prefer? Impossible to say. The same way I can't choose between Demon's or Dark. Some people say DSII is one step forward and two steps back. I disagree. I'd say it's simply one step forward and another step back (with the exception of Soul Memory, which is several dozen steps back). I enjoy both while being mindful of their respective strengths and weaknesses.
What Dark Souls II got RIGHT
- As opposed to the first Dark Souls which started on a high note and got progressively more sloppy in the second half of the game, Dark Souls II starts with the excellent Forest of Fallen Giants and, with the exception of a few hiccups like Tseldora, gets progressively better until the game's finale. The atmosphere, the bosses, the enemy encounters, all get a bit more interesting in the second half of the game. Dark Souls II generally has more momentum as far as world progression is concerned.
- Variety. More weapons, more armor, more spells, more viable stats to invest in which means more viable builds. PVP is a bit less homogenous. Power stance can breathe new life into a weapon that was previously underwhelming.
- If I put my summon sign down or decide to invade someone, odds are I'm going to get what I want within 30 seconds or less - as opposed to the first game where I'd have to keep trying over and over again every time a summoning or invasion failed. The dedicated servers work beautifully when it comes to matchmaking. There's even a bit less lag in my experience, though I'm sure others would beg to differ.
- Balance changes. Most PVP matches in the first game devolved into backstab fishing. Now that the effectiveness of backstabs has been reduced, players are encouraged to trade blows more often which results in a greater variety of PVP encounters. The rise of strength weapons was a welcome reprieve from the dex domination of the first game.
- The end-game and NG+. I love how the game doesn't end when you defeat the final boss. I was a lot more encouraged to do a NG+ run when I saw all the different items and encounters it brings. It feels like a more robust experience than the first game's NG+, which only brought with it increased difficulty and Gravelording.
What Dark Souls II got WRONG
- Neglecting PVP and putting it off until NG+. I didn't care for how they segregated NG players from NG+ players, especially since there's so much more focus on PVP in NG+. Sometimes I just want to make a basic build and get into PVP as soon as possible, I might not feel like playing through the game so I can have infinite access to cracked eye orbs. It's too many hoops to jump through for what's supposed to be an essential aspect of the series. I've only ever been invaded once by a Dark Spirit in the couple hundred hours I've played the game, including NG+. There's something wrong with that. People purposefully congregate around the Bell covenant because the Blood and Sentinel covenants are too annoying to invade in.
- Enemy extinction. What an ill-advised feature. Frankly I have no idea who this feature is even for. It makes farming for rare drops an ordeal and technically puts a cap on the souls you can earn unless you're active in multiplayer or free and loose with your bonfire ascetics.
- Covenant progression. Frankly the amount of victories required to get to max rank in the two main PVP covenants are ridiculous, especially considering dying in the Blood covenant erases a victory and dueling in the Sentinels consumes a Token of Fidelity every time. So many hoops to jump through for spells and gear that you'll already find most of in NG+ and beyond. I'm shocked this has never been patched.
- Some of the worst boss encounters in gaming. Belfry Gargoyles. Royal Rat Vanguard. Ruin Sentinels. Ancient Dragon. Dark Souls 2 is the first game in the series where I'm tempted to say they exploited cheap tactics to frustrate the player. Ancient Dragon especially is a giant game of roulette, which wouldn't be so bad if the path to him wasn't so long and filled with infinite-stamina Drakekeepers.
- Last but not least - paramount in fact - Soul Memory. Implemented to keep low-level twinks from harassing new players with late game gear (Why? No one invades until NG+ anyway). What it essentially does is punish players who enjoy co-op or PVP at specific level tiers by forcibly ejecting them from their preferred bracket once they've earned enough souls, whether they use them to level or not. This is mind-boggling to me. So say you feel SL170 is a great point to stop leveling and that's where you want to stay from there on out. Tough. You're going to keep getting pushed towards higher level opponents whether you level or not, meaning there's essentially no reason to ever stop leveling if you want to remain competitive. A feature instituted to solve the problem of twinks, it went ahead and become a bigger problem than the one it was meant to solve.
So which one do I prefer? Impossible to say. The same way I can't choose between Demon's or Dark. Some people say DSII is one step forward and two steps back. I disagree. I'd say it's simply one step forward and another step back (with the exception of Soul Memory, which is several dozen steps back). I enjoy both while being mindful of their respective strengths and weaknesses.
You can at least make a case with the other two (especially the Mimic which is one of the ones that's actually legitimately broken), but I don't see anything wrong here. The whole gimmick of these enemies is that their melee attacks are incredibly fast and long range but have really obvious start-up, and enemies in Souls have always ignored walls most of the time unless it 100% blocks them. Get good and block or dodge.
DustyVonEric
Member
Damn. Best way I've ever heard it put.
Anytime you lose your ace, your megastar player, your iconic frontman, there's going to be a bit of a step down.
The team may still be great, but it's not at full strength. And your band is just not the same.
The Patriots still had an awesome 11-5 season without Brady
, though they missed the playoffs that season
Miyazaki and his team are Souls imho. Of course Miyazaki's absence is going to be felt in the sequel. It doesn't mean Dark Souls 2 sucks though. The game is still a bunch of GAFfers' GOTY so far according to the GOTY thread going on right now.
Demon's Souls is my favorite though 
SkullHydra
Member
One of the main things that got me upset at Dark Souls 2 is how awful they made the Great Scythe. I wrecked with it in DS1, so I saved my upgrades for it in DS2, and when I finally found it and upgraded it to max... it sucked.
;_;
;_;
Brerlappin
Member
There isn't even a debate in my mind. DS>DS2, no question
AcceptableGhost
Member
Dark Souls 1 for sure.
There are definitely great things about Dark Souls 2 but I just find the content - the levels and bosses to just be worse in general.
I-frames on the roll changing based on stats (and with it starting out pretty shit) was a really poor decision. You don't think the length of invulnerability should be set and the enemies designed around that set roll - like an action game?
There are definitely great things about Dark Souls 2 but I just find the content - the levels and bosses to just be worse in general.
I-frames on the roll changing based on stats (and with it starting out pretty shit) was a really poor decision. You don't think the length of invulnerability should be set and the enemies designed around that set roll - like an action game?
TeddyShardik
Banned
Definitely Dark Souls 1 for me. I would love to have all the small improvements Dark Souls 2 got in #1. Like using several souls at once, the ladder climbing etc.
I enjoyed DS 2 a lot as well but it has too many problems in pvp for me to keep playing it as long as I played DS 1. I still go through the game trying differnet weapons and builds but it's much more a pve exclusive affair in DS2.
I enjoyed DS 2 a lot as well but it has too many problems in pvp for me to keep playing it as long as I played DS 1. I still go through the game trying differnet weapons and builds but it's much more a pve exclusive affair in DS2.
Because I think it's worth stating: Dark Souls 2's hitboxes are problematic because of netcode, not because of the hitboxes themselves. Which isn't an easy thing to explain, sadly. Play the game offline (not connected to the internet - not connected to Namco's servers) for a while and you will notice that suddenly all the hitbox shenanigans go away. For some reason the player hitbox is connected to where the server thinks you are, not where you think you are.
Also, Dark Souls 2 is a superior game. It has better mechanics and less poise garbage, which automatically makes it better in my book.
Also, Dark Souls 2 is a superior game. It has better mechanics and less poise garbage, which automatically makes it better in my book.
SkullHydra
Member
I always play offline, and I still get hitbox problems.
Are you disconnected from the internet? Because if you're connected you're still connected to Namco's servers (this occurs even if you play the game in "offline mode"). There's also a 60FPS issue with the PC version (which is why the weapon degrades so quickly on the PC version).
Please note, I'm not saying there aren't issues, but people focusing on hitbox issues should be focusing on fixing the netcode, because it's the source of the problem (the 60FPS bug being the other half).
SkullHydra
Member
Nope. I'm completely disconnected. =/
But then again, I may not be having it as badly as some of you guys are. It's enough to notice though.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
"Put points into this stat to fix broken this broken mechanic in a ARPG series that already had a stat governing this in tandem with equip load."
This isn't an MMO-esque RPG where +Hit affects as you go to town on each other (and we all know the whining and bitching that stat's gotten in MMO circles, so why is it fine in a much more action based game praised for its responsive combat?) They made your character a clumsy load in the beginning, then you get those stats up and suddenly you're not getting phantom hit, you're not chugging your Sunny D like it's a commercial, and you're not lifting your shield like you don't meet the STR requirement.
It's another domino in DK2's self-destructive war against itself.
Demon's Souls did better on both fronts. S'all I'm saying.
JimmyRustler
Member
Let me put it this way:
When is started playing Dark Souls I hated it. I ended up loving it.
When I started playing Dark Souls 2 I loved it. I ended up hating it.
Demons Souls is somewhere in between there.
When is started playing Dark Souls I hated it. I ended up loving it.
When I started playing Dark Souls 2 I loved it. I ended up hating it.
Demons Souls is somewhere in between there.
Interesting. Relative to how you felt it was in Dark Souls 1? I mean, I never felt the hitboxes were bad in Dark Souls 1 either but there were still some moves where I felt the hitboxes were garbage.
I also find it funny how polarizing this all is. I mean, the technical discussions are more interesting to me than all the fighting about which one is better, which doesn't really matter.
If you're on PC, the other thing you might be experiencing is the 60FPS bug. It basically screws with active frames of certain moves as well as your own hitboxes and makes everything move much faster as a result (meaning that you may both be hit by things or hit things while the animation has already finished because the active frames aren't synchronized properly).
I'm still of the opinion that what killed Dark Souls 2 for most people isn't hitboxes, but environmental design and enemy encounters. It's a mechanically better game on all fronts. Even I, despite liking Dark Souls 2 more than the first two, hate the Lost Bastille. I hate Anor Londo way more though.
DS1 for me.
To be fair, I've only played DS1 about 50% (but absolutely loved it, just didn't have time to continue), and DS2 maybe.. 10%-20% or so, mostly because I just didn't feel much motivation to continue.
I liked level design in DS1 a *lot* better, with all the shortcuts and interwoven areas. And many of them were easier on the eyes as well, that forest in DS2.. ugh.
Plus, DS2 was a bit annoying and even more difficult to play for me as I was playing with mouse and keyboard, just like DS1 in fact. Surprisingly, in spite of the improvements, I found DS2 a lot harder to play that way, mostly because the mouse input always seemed to wait whether you'd double click or only do a single click, which led to a significant latency in combat.
And last but not least, DS1 was just completely new to be, a kind of game I had never experienced before. DS2 felt like an addon to that, so it couldn't manage to create the same kind of excitement again, but I can't really blame the game for that.
To be fair, I've only played DS1 about 50% (but absolutely loved it, just didn't have time to continue), and DS2 maybe.. 10%-20% or so, mostly because I just didn't feel much motivation to continue.
I liked level design in DS1 a *lot* better, with all the shortcuts and interwoven areas. And many of them were easier on the eyes as well, that forest in DS2.. ugh.
Plus, DS2 was a bit annoying and even more difficult to play for me as I was playing with mouse and keyboard, just like DS1 in fact. Surprisingly, in spite of the improvements, I found DS2 a lot harder to play that way, mostly because the mouse input always seemed to wait whether you'd double click or only do a single click, which led to a significant latency in combat.
And last but not least, DS1 was just completely new to be, a kind of game I had never experienced before. DS2 felt like an addon to that, so it couldn't manage to create the same kind of excitement again, but I can't really blame the game for that.
Riposte
Member
I would say that fact there's little visual representation of i-frames, before or after they've changed, is more of a problem than varying i-frames. This means even in the best case scenario you have to do learning the hard way. The actual variance I don't see an issue in.
The difference between the rolls is not so great where the enemies become incompatible with low or high AGL (or even low/high encumbrance). It merely comes down to a matter of changing the risk-reward equation and having to balance these elements out for build construction (as opposed to getting it for free). In Dark Souls II you don't get to become a ninja for free, so don't try to play like a ninja and take wild chances before you've become agile. I would say that it is more reasonable to adapt to your current i-frames than it is to lament the fact they can be improved.
Rawshocker
Member
Demon's Souls>>>>>Dark Souls>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dark Souls 2
Dark Souls 2 was dirty spot on souls series.
Dark Souls 2 was dirty spot on souls series.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
How're you supposed to adapt to your current i-frames if you can't see them? If i-frames were clearly visible like DS1's weight classes I don't think people would complain about them as much. But they're not, and agility is awful game design for that reason.
I'm pretty sure someone's made a fix for that.
So why was no one complaining about them in Dark Souls 1? You couldn't see iframes in either of the first two games either. Much like in Dark Souls 2, you had to feel out your iframes, much like a player in a fighting game feels out an opponent.Imru’ al-Qays;123763001 said:
If anything, poise still remains one of the worst game design decisions in the Souls series. It's a far bigger problem than iframes.
Riposte
Member
Imru’ al-Qays;123763001 said:
When I said current, I meant "base", as in what you are currently used to before you change them. The point being you should dodge conservatively until you can easily eyeball the difference overtime (from my personal experience a handful or two of points is easily felt).
Also when I said visible, I meant when the character is in an invulnerable stat as opposed to set classes of invulnerability. That would still require deliberate testing or "learning the hard way" to get a grasp on. Seeing your AGL stat (or Evasion+ in Monster Hunter) go up a few points is also about as visual in that respect.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Because your i-frames in DS1 and Demon's were consistent. You needed to get a feel for them, but once you got a feel for them you could carry that knowledge with you through the rest of the game.
DS2 i-frames are not consistent. You start the game with shit i-frames and eventually you get more, but that takes time and stat investment, so you're constantly relearning the timings on your rolls.
The difference is that in Demon's and DS1 you learn the hard way once. Once you understand the i-frames you know how to roll, period. In DS2 this isn't the case.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
In game A you can see when you have successfully dodged an attack.
In game B even if your character appears to have successfully dodged an attack, because of stat Y is not at X or hitbox problems you are punished.
The player should never have been hit in the first place because their character is not even close to the weapon so its a hitbox problem.
There's also stuff like this:
you can see it here in this gif:
You know even with these severe hitbox problems I would be still be okay with the game........if the game didn't have so many enemies have insane tracking skills. enemies having seemingly unlimited stamina and the game just chucking enemy hordes in a sad attempt at making the game "hard".
When the hit is registering before the enemy is swinging it's definitely a netcode problem. (see rubber banding)
Wow.
... Wow. This is genuinely one of the dumbest things I have ever heard (not you, the game). Are you completely sure of this? It's so mind-bogglingly stupid of a design decision I can hardly believe it.
Player feedback.
I find it immensely more difficult to roll consistently in DS2.This could be due to invincibility window being much more narrow as well as active enemy attack animations and tracking being quite ridiculous in DS2.
Yes, and I totally agree! It's really, really stupid! I still have no idea why this is the case, and it drives me up a wall.
I would say it's an issue of player tracking enemy attacks, which are definitely a thing in Dark Souls 2.
This couldn't possibly be the case. My internet connection is extremely shitty (if I run a Speedtest during the evening hours, my ping to the nearest server will be something like 300ms) and I don't have many problems with hitboxes. If what you're saying is true, the game would be unplayable for me.
I agree with this. I think the ADP stat was a terrible addition (I'm not fond of the equip load/Stamina/Health split either to be honest) because it makes leveling up in the early game a total chore, and kept me from ever feeling comfortable with my rolling. I don't know what it is, but it feels way off in this game. Taking Artorias down with a Zweihander in Dark Souls II would feel less like skill and more like luck because the i-frames didn't fuck me over.
It's the only explanation for rubber banding aside from being trapped inside of an animation, which frequently isn't the case on many moves. Granted, the hitboxes may just be that ridiculous, but in the case of stuff like a mining pick hitting you? Unless lag or server placement-based mapping is being used, I can't see it as being possible. FPSes do this too quite frequently. Where you are is determined entirely by the server unless you're on a LAN. Regardless, I have found hitboxes to be variable while online, whereas they have no variance while offline (though I haven't tested it with every enemy).
It's also the only thing that explains so many conflicting reports, both in video and in people talking about the game. Again, there may even be something that triggers it, turning it on or off, I'm really not sure. I'm just sure that there is hitbox variance when canned animations definitely shouldn't show such variance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFgo-trRpVo&list=UUt_wFX6XDkIVoNpzBiRVcDw&index=11
Yeah, I don't buy the online thing at all because a connection like mine would be having "hitbox" issues in every fight (and stuff like PvP makes that especially obvious) if that was the case and I don't.
In my defense I was reading on my tablet and was on my side in bed at the time I totally missed that.
Imru’ al-Qays;123764309 said:
You couldn't possibly be more wrong.
DS1 had DWGR (0-25%), Fast (0-25%), Mid (26-50%), and Slow (50-100%) roll animations with each different i-frame tiers in between (usually halfway) while each animation has different wind up, active, and recovery frames.
In DS2 each roll animation is the same from 0-70% while weight determines roll speed and distance and Agi determines how many I-frames the roll has. I-frames always start on the same frame of animation regardless of weight and agi and because of the wind ups, delays, and tracking of enemy attacks roll speed and distance are now just as important as I-frames themselves. 70% and higher is fat rolling.
And Psycho_Mantis, animations and frame data are still being worked on, in some cases on an individual basis (sanatier's spear for example), and a lot of what you posted is already outdated. From Software just released a major set of calibrations t hat fundamentally changed the way the entire game is balanced by tweaking nearly every item and spell in the game in one way or another. I know why you're posting these but realize that until they are finished you really can't compare the two games right now. That version isn't the version of the game people are going to remember and in some cases the version of the game you're posting isn't even the version of the game being played right now.
If you really wanted good examples as to how fucked up DS2 was though look up Bino boosting, Parry walking (both sky walking and soft locking the games of enemy players), and Backstep/ Roll Parries. Also R1-L1 dual spamming (aka Tanimu-rush, a guaranteed perma stun/kill combo ) and old dual animation bugs that gave heavy tiered weapons fast and low stamina consuming light tier dual swings.
This is exactly the problem, though. In Dark Souls, there are four specific rolling conditions, as you said. DWGR, Fast, Mid, and Slow. With this specificity in mind, the developers are able to (and did) design the entire game around the mechanic with very little variance to worry about. If you are able to Fast or DWRG roll, you will be able to dodge pretty much everything in the game without issue if you master the timing of your roll. A Mid or Slow, on the other hand, might get you in trouble - but then, the difference is immediately apparent to the player as soon as their Equip Load passes a certain point, allowing them to adjust their playstyle to easily accommodate. It's a reliable and intuitive system, and one of the backbones of the Souls combat system entirely.
Dark Souls 2 does away with this, though, because there is simply so much variance forced onto the player that it becomes confusing and frustrating. Look to Page 7, where Riposte asks Psycho_Mantis what the player's AGL was. This is a question that should never have to be asked. When the player, as well as observers, are left unsure about how the player's current rolling conditions will work, the system is flawed.
I don't know or care how many individual i-frames it takes to dodge Artorias' sword in Dark Souls. I do know that a fast roll will work, because of the immediate feedback the game grants me. In Dark Souls II though? I don't fucking know - 50% Equip Load and 22 AGL might work I guess? But then, if it does, what about 21 AGL and 60%? I don't know. I can't know. I have to get a feel for it literally every time one of those stats is altered.
DustyVonEric
Member
Imru al-Qays;123764309 said:
I believe this is what Imru al-Qays is talking about. These 4 catagories are constant. And once your get used to them, you knew how to react. Then it becomes a game of skill, rather than guess-work, hoping, praying, and luck
Well it seems the great majority on Gaf will remember the game this way, as rabid Souls fans that bought the game right away, found it lacking, and have already moved on before the changes.
If the experience has soured enough for them, they may not want to or think of returning to the game to see how it has evolved since.
If Dark Souls Collection for Bone and PS4 comes out though, gamers will probably revisit the game and see all of the changes.
DrDrizzay101
Member
Was this theory based on some inside info for how the game works or just based on observation and logical deduction? Unfortunately I would also have to call shenanigans if there wasn't some supporting evidence based on my own experiences. Part of the problem is that some of the enemies are just very poorly programmed with how their damage is tied to their animations. For example, the "swollen mongrel" giant dogs found in the gutter and Aldia's corrosion pit have a biting lunge attack that deals damage to the player before the animation noticeably activates. Maybe some of these issues have been patched or addressed, maybe there is some other netcode voodoo going on, but there definitely have been problems with just how the game itself was programmed.
Dark Souls 1 was still very much a game of guesswork, hoping, praying and luck. Poise was the root cause of it, but dodge tiers generally were more problematic because the animations for them were never representative of the i-frames they had in the first place. Dark Souls 2 solves the first problem and mitigates the second by managing i-frames into tiers established by stats, allowing them to be discussed with greater specificity and optimized to a greater degree as a result.I believe this is what Imru’ al-Qays is talking about. These 4 catagories are constant. And once your get used to them, you knew how to react. Then it becomes a game of skill, rather than guess-work, hoping, praying, and luck
It's possible, but I was informed about it by a friend after I had beaten the game and when going back and playing it offline, I suddenly noticed that the hitboxes seemed a lot more "fair." I then did some testing on enemies and found that after going back online, their hitboxes changed. Just, straight up the enemies would hit me more consistently doing the same thing. I don't have the video recording skills of others so I can't really show it, but I do hope others will do so.
eot
Banned
The issue is the tracking as much as the clipping.
I wouldn't go as far as saying it's flawed. It's different from Dark Souls, but not flawed. It's definitely harder to read since you don't get the immediate feedback as when it was only up to weight... but what you lose in preliminary readability you gain in variety. You are no longer forced between good (best with DWGR), decent, and garbage weight tiers. You can min max any way you choose as long as you learn how your roll works.
And it's not like the disparity between rolls is that bad either. At worst you start off with 8 I-frames (@ 30 fps). Instead of feeling severely punished for that extra pound of weight (again 26% is the same as 50%) in DS1's system you start off with a character that demands more precise timing or a stat investment for more comfortable rolls - 10 attunement and 24 adaptability adding 50% to your base I-frames which is 1 frame away from fast rolling in DS1.
It's different - yes. Harder to learn at first for sure. But this isn't DS1 afterall. This is DS2. and in DS2 Agility allows for more variety, which is not inherently a bad thing. It is more uniform because of regardless of what stats you eventually end up using or equipment you end up wearing the I frames always start at the exact same point of the roll. You might prefer the weight class system, but can you at least acknowledge that some people might have seen it as too restrictive for builds which lead to a certain level of stagnation in online play, the freedom may very well being one of the major contributing factors as to why PVP is more popular in DS2.
I believe this is what Imru’ al-Qays is talking about. These 4 catagories are constant. And once your get used to them, you knew how to react. Then it becomes a game of skill, rather than guess-work, hoping, praying, and luck
After some thinking I understand where they are coming from now - I just have a different opinion. That because all rolls are uniform as long as I learn the first 8 frames which will be the same on every other character the rest is just a matter of wiggle room.
DeS is extremely inconsistent. It has by far the worst level design in the series (2-2 the cramped confusing nightmare, 5-2 poison excess, 3-2 overlong and samey). Boss arenas can also be poorly designed so they can get stuck (again 2-2 and 3-2), some very dissapointing end of world bosses (2-3, 4-3), and very imbalanced magic.