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[Mman235]

The issue is the tracking as much as the clipping.

The tracking on those enemies is one of the central parts of their attack; if you're in front of them when they've wound-up then you'd better respond in some way or you're getting hit. If you don't want to do that then get behind them during the massive start-up their attack has, as they can't track you at all then (and are easy to backstab).

There are a few enemies who I would say are a bit overzealous in their tracking but not them. There are several enemies and attacks in the earlier games that would be nothing without tracking either (Ornstein's dash-stab is a pretty direct parallel, and even has similar janky clipping with the pillars).

 

[Sami+]

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's flawed. It's different from Dark Souls, but not flawed. It's definitely harder to read since you don't get the immediate feedback as when it was only up to weight... but what you lose in preliminary readability you gain in variety. You are no longer forced between good (best with DWGR), decent, and garbage weight tiers. You can min max any way you choose as long as you learn how your roll works.

And it's not like the disparity between rolls is that bad either. At worst you start off with 8 I-frames (@ 30 fps). Instead of feeling severely punished for that extra pound of weight (again 26% is the same as 50%) in DS1's system you start off with a character that demands more precise timing or a stat investment for more comfortable rolls - 10 attunement and 24 adaptability adding 50% to your base I-frames which is 1 frame away from fast rolling in DS1.

It's different - yes. Harder to learn at first for sure. But this isn't DS1 afterall. This is DS2. and in DS2 Agility allows for more variety, which is not inherently a bad thing. It is more uniform because of regardless of what stats you eventually end up using or equipment you end up wearing the I frames always start at the exact same point of the roll. You might prefer the weight class system, but can you at least acknowledge that some people might have seen it as too restrictive for builds which lead to a certain level of stagnation in online play, the freedom may very well being one of the major contributing factors as to why PVP is more popular in DS2.

I can acknowledge that, sure, but it does bring up the issue of concessions made in the single player game for the sake of PvP (which still isn't really balanced regardless). I love PvP in the Souls games. It's fun. But when its inclusions causes severe problems it's very difficult for me to justify.

I understand the benefit that variance offers, and I respect your opinion. Personally, though, I believe that the system from the first two games was vastly superior in almost every way. An easy solution to the problems caused by limited builds would be to alter the stat requirements of Fast Roll - getting rid of it entirely introduces way too many problems and variables to be worth it, imo.

 

[Beepos]

Dark Souls 2 - Just more of everything and was mostly consistent, especially since the original wasn't consistent all the way through either.

Definitely had some weak bosses, but I'll take more over less if there still quality there for the majority (mirror knight, smelter demon ect)

I've never noticed hitbox problems on either games? Guess I just don't pay attention or it doesn't bother me.

For Dark Souls 2, console 30fps versus PC 60fps - would that be causing hitbox problems for people?

 

[DustyVonEric]

Dark Souls 1 was still very much a game of guesswork, hoping, praying and luck. Poise was the root cause of it, but dodge tiers generally were more problematic because the animations for them were never representative of the i-frames they had in the first place.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this one. The dodge speed is good for spacing, but keeping an eye on the equip weight will tell the player the type of roll (speed, dodge window / i-frames) he has. And once practiced, as soon as the player becomes comfortable with it, that knowledge lasts the whole game. Once you figure out an enemies attacks, there's no need to hope or pray that the attack won't hit you. A different stat didn't govern that. Either you timed the roll correctly (according to the rules the game laid out at the very beginning), or you didn't.

Maybe I don't understand what you mean?

 

[YoungHav]

ok, I popped DeS in about a month ago to reminisce. Is it me or does it have better gfx than dark souls? Dark has a more grainy appearance whereas demon looked more 3-D and solid.

 

[DaciaJC]

If anything, poise still remains one of the worst game design decisions in the Souls series. It's a far bigger problem than iframes.

Dark Souls 1 was still very much a game of guesswork, hoping, praying and luck. Poise was the root cause of it

Can you explain what you mean by this? I feel that the addition of poise was one of the best gameplay improvements in Dark Souls, as it made heavy armor much more viable, and its subsequent nerf into a confusing and seemingly useless stat in the sequel is one reason for the game's lukewarm reception.

 

[Dragonborn]

Dark Souls 1 for certain. Dark Souls 2 was made by the b team and I've got to say, it shows.

 

[ZeroRay]

ok, I popped DeS in about a month ago to reminisce. Is it me or does it have better gfx than dark souls? Dark has a more grainy appearance whereas demon looked more 3-D and solid.

The artstyle if DeS is still my favorite in the series. Also helps that it's by far the most stable game in the series, performance wise on consoles.

 

[Sami+]

Can you explain what you mean by this? I feel that the addition of poise was one of the best gameplay improvements in Dark Souls, as it made heavy armor much more viable, and its subsequent nerf into a confusing and seemingly useless stat in the sequel is one reason for the game's lukewarm reception.

Yeah, I don't really get this either. I had no qualms with poise.

 

[Renekton]

I've never noticed hitbox problems on either games? Guess I just don't pay attention or it doesn't bother me.

For Dark Souls 2, console 30fps versus PC 60fps - would that be causing hitbox problems for people?

Happening on PS3 as well.

Main issue is boss attacks have far wider hitbox and longer hitframes than is shown visually, plus some attacks track like Tekken mids.

Also they are not consistent, some may miss when they should hit, some may hit when you're a mile away.

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

I prefer dark souls 2 as I can actually get somewhere in it without help.

 

[Sami+]

I prefer dark souls 2 as I can actually get somewhere in it without help.

It's kind of funny, my girlfriend had the opposite experience. She was forced to play all the way through Dark Souls completely offline (beat it and loved it), but gets very easily frustrated with Dark Souls 2 and feels very bad at the game.

 

[Seyavesh]

dark souls 2 has consistent good quality

dark souls 1 has extremely insane highs (the entire 1st half of the game, the DLC content) but some almost unbearable lows in the 2nd half (lost shitzalith, tomb of giants, new londo)

the design encounter difference between DS1 and DS2 is so different too that it's hard to tell which of the well designed levels in the two are 'better designed' or not because of how progression is so different between the two games.

DS1 is like level exploration is the biggest risk, with enemy encounters being limited in numbers. the primary danger is being whittled down to where you're in a risky scenario and not able to take damage anymore before you find another bonfire because of their scarcity

DS2 is like megaman or some shit. enemy encounters are elaborately designed to fuck with a player at full health almost 100% of the time but there are lots of 'resting points'. enemy counts are higher and traps are significantly more dangerous and bastardly

i prefer DS2 because i enjoy the combat aspect a lot more than the exploration aspect and also no lost izalith

 

[mickcenary]

ok, I popped DeS in about a month ago to reminisce. Is it me or does it have better gfx than dark souls? Dark has a more grainy appearance whereas demon looked more 3-D and solid.

This is ludicrous. I adore DeS, but the rose tint is ridiculously strong with its fans.

From a graphical standpoint, DkS1 does more or less everything better than DeS. Shaders, clipping issues, armour detail, animation; the list goes on and on. It's just a more polished product, which makes sense, given it's a sequel on a much grander scale.

I mean, some of the transition animations for certain weapons are abysmal in DeS. They cut short and look spasmodic, etc. I can understand people preferring movesets, etc, but everything is objectively jankier. I find it hard to believe that people who vehemently say otherwise aren't letting their preference for the game cloud their judgement.

 

[Sami+]

This is ludicrous. I adore DeS, but the rose tint is ridiculously strong with its fans.

From a graphical standpoint, DkS1 does more or less everything better than DeS. Shaders, clipping issues, armour detail, animation; the list goes on and on. It's just a more polished product, which makes sense, given it's a sequel on a much grander scale.

I mean, some of the transition animations for certain weapons are abysmal in DeS. They cut short and look spasmodic, etc. I can understand people preferring movesets, etc, but everything is objectively jankier. I find it hard to believe that people who vehemently say otherwise aren't letting their preference for the game cloud their judgement.

I agree, but I prefer the overall aesthetic of Demon's Souls in spite of those improvements simply because I think the atmosphere and art style are a bit tighter and more visually pleasing. It's all preference though, obviously, and he could have expressed himself better.

 

[YoungHav]

I'm not rose-tinting it. I was wondering if it was just my TV or not. I played 1-1 and my character and zombies felt "rounder" and more 3-D than Dark Souls. Dark seems to have a sprinkle of grainy.

 

[PseudoViper]

Dark Souls Muthafuk*g

Spoiler

One

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

It's kind of funny, my girlfriend had the opposite experience. She was forced to play all the way through Dark Souls completely offline (beat it and loved it), but gets very easily frustrated with Dark Souls 2 and feels very bad at the game.

Lol, I find dark souls to be too difficult, and dark souls feels easier to me.

 

[mickcenary]

I'm not rose-tinting it. I was wondering if it was just my TV or not. I played 1-1 and my character and zombies felt "rounder" and more 3-D than Dark Souls. Dark seems to have a sprinkle of grainy.

Well, you did say "better gfx", which is a pretty sweeping statement What you're alluding to is more a preference of art style. I think that, technically speaking, DkS has DeS well and truly covered. As for the "roundness", the weaker texture work could definitely give things a more rounded, full aesthetic.

I don't recall DkS ever looking grainy, though. Who knows? We all have different sensitivities.

 

[Gestahl]

dark souls 2 has consistent good quality

dark souls 1 has extremely insane highs (the entire 1st half of the game, the DLC content) but some almost unbearable lows in the 2nd half (lost shitzalith, tomb of giants, new londo)

the design encounter difference between DS1 and DS2 is so different too that it's hard to tell which of the well designed levels in the two are 'better designed' or not because of how progression is so different between the two games.

DS1 is like level exploration is the biggest risk, with enemy encounters being limited in numbers. the primary danger is being whittled down to where you're in a risky scenario and not able to take damage anymore before you find another bonfire because of their scarcity

DS2 is like megaman or some shit. enemy encounters are elaborately designed to fuck with a player at full health almost 100% of the time but there are lots of 'resting points'. enemy counts are higher and traps are significantly more dangerous and bastardly

i prefer DS2 because i enjoy the combat aspect a lot more than the exploration aspect and also no lost izalith

The Tomb and New Londo are fucking amazing compared to most of the crap in two

It's amazing how many people bring out the "highs and lows" fud about the two games when shit like the giant memories exist

 

[Sami+]

The Tomb and New Londo are fucking amazing compared to most of the crap in two

It's amazing how many people bring out the "highs and lows" fud about the two games when shit like the giant memories exist

Yeah, the only thing I straight up dislike in DkS is Lost Izalith. Blighttown is bearable on PC. Shrine of Amana and Dragon Shrine (? The Mace Drakekeeper place) are both awful and about on the same level as Izalith imo.

 

[DrDrizzay101]

I'm not rose-tinting it. I was wondering if it was just my TV or not. I played 1-1 and my character and zombies felt "rounder" and more 3-D than Dark Souls. Dark seems to have a sprinkle of grainy.

I have no idea what this means but can only assume your impression is somehow derived from the aesthetic/art style. As others have said DeS is very graphically rough from a technical standpoint (but also tremendous art design).

 

[Cyrano]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this one. The dodge speed is good for spacing, but keeping an eye on the equip weight will tell the player the type of roll (speed, dodge window / i-frames) he has. And once practiced, as soon as the player becomes comfortable with it, that knowledge lasts the whole game. Once you figure out an enemies attacks, there's no need to hope or pray that the attack won't hit you. A different stat didn't govern that. Either you timed the roll correctly (according to the rules the game laid out at the very beginning), or you didn't.

Maybe I don't understand what you mean?

This remains true in Dark Souls 2, but the timing window is initially smaller. The game forces you to get better while you still have a roll with less iframes. Once you get a roll with more iframes, it becomes easier to recognize the timing on your rolls. Thus, you feel the effects of getting better doubly so because the mechanics in the game are improving your rolling ability while you are learning the timing window for the roll more intimately as a result of initially having less iframes to work with.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I feel that the addition of poise was one of the best gameplay improvements in Dark Souls, as it made heavy armor much more viable, and its subsequent nerf into a confusing and seemingly useless stat in the sequel is one reason for the game's lukewarm reception.

Because while I believe wearing armor should mitigate damage, it shouldn't make you into a walking tank, unaffected by everything. You might be able to mitigate an arrow from stunning you while wearing heavy armor, but a club, a sword, anything with any real weight, and armor isn't going to matter (at least, not with regards to whether or not you're stunned when hit). It also delineates the armor you wear, because if you're going to wear heavy armor you're just going to wear the heaviest stuff around, the stuff that has the highest numbers and mitigates the most hitstun. Which means you see less creativity regarding the pool of available equipment, outside of players theming characters. Which means the game has an extremely stagnant metagame.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Also, Dark Souls 2 is a superior game. It has better mechanics and less poise garbage, which automatically makes it better in my book.

Poise was a spectacular addition to Souls, and I miss its non-inclusion in 2. Basically poise allowed you to play the game in a completely different way if you felt like learning how to do it, but it didn't force you to. Learning how poise works is just like learning how i-frames on your rolls work: it requires trial and error, but if you decide to play a poise build eventually you'll get a feel for it. It's on an enemy by enemy basis, of course, but to me that's still superior to DS2's i-frame system: you can tell which enemy you're fighting and you can learn how many hits it takes you stagger you with your current poise setup much easier than you can guess how many i-frames you have at your present level of agility.

And the game is balanced around it. Even at 40 endurance you can't wear enough armor to tank hits from any but the weakest enemies and still fast roll. Dark Souls makes you decide between rolling and poise-tanking: either you wear little enough armor to fast roll, or you mid roll and roll only as a last resort, trusting to your shield to absorb hits and your armor to prevent you from getting interrupted. This made heavy weapons much more viable: since heavy weapons weigh so much in the first place you may as well stack armor and actually play like a heavy guy with a huge club. But it is a different playstyle and it requires different skills.

Now, for PvP I'll acknowledge that poise was extremely imbalancing. But for PvE it was great.

 

[Cyrano]

But for PvE it was great.

It's just my opinion, but I feel like the entire purpose of poise was for PvP, and wasn't considered with the amount of intentionality you're giving it in PvE. Poise busts a lot of the challenge of Dark Souls 1 wide open, because as you say, for most enemies you can simply ignore being hit, and this makes a lot of enemies far less interesting. In Dark Souls 2 it's basically gone, which makes encounters challenging again. I just don't see poise as a positive in the Souls series, and I'm immensely glad it was greatly nerfed.

tl;dr We'll agree to disagree here.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

It's just my opinion, but I feel like the entire purpose of poise was for PvP, and wasn't considered with the amount of intentionality you're giving it in PvE. Poise busts a lot of the challenge of Dark Souls 1 wide open, because as you say, for most enemies you can simply ignore being hit, and this makes a lot of enemies far less interesting. In Dark Souls 2 it's basically gone, which makes encounters challenging again. I just don't see poise as a positive in the Souls series, and I'm immensely glad it was greatly nerfed.

tl;dr We'll agree to disagree here.

I think the problem wasn't so much that poise was too powerful as it was that there were two sets of armor (Stone and Havel's) that just had too much poise. Those should have either not been in the game, or they should have been end-game equipment, IMO. Once you understood how powerful those sets were it's true that you could trivialize a lot of bosses.

But to me that's a much less significant problem than DS2's just plain ill-conceived agility mechanic. Especially when you consider that every Souls game has had certain builds that trivialized bosses. Demon's had regen-stacking faith builds, Dark had Havel's, and Dark 2 (until recently) had Lightning Bolt spam faith builds and Resonant Soul spam dark builds.

 

[justjim89]

I prefer DS2 if only because it doesn't run like ass on my laptop, even with DSFix Dark Souls was always a bit slow.

 

[Beerman462]

Dark Souls 1 was a phenomenon. All I have to say is, first play through sword/shield defeat Capra, Gaping and Quelaag. Climb up Blight Town, cut through valley and end up back at Firelink Shrine ...mind blown.

 

[mickcenary]

Dark Souls 1 was a phenomenon. All I have to say is, first play through sword/shield defeat Capra, Gaping and Quelaag. Climb up Blight Town, cut through valley and end up back at Firelink Shrine ...mind blown.

It is impossible to not have your mind blown by the sheer mastery of DkS' world design and the wonders it does for a sense of "journey" - especially if it's your first Souls game, which it was for me. Neither before, nor since have I felt such a palpable and impactful sensation of having accomplished and traversed.

This is easily DkS2's most detrimental and sorely felt omission/change. I mean, the DLC showed us that the "B-Team" is capable of level design *almost* good enough to exist beside top-shelf Souls, so it's a shame that the vanilla game ended up as it did.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Was this theory based on some inside info for how the game works or just based on observation and logical deduction? Unfortunately I would also have to call shenanigans if there wasn't some supporting evidence based on my own experiences. Part of the problem is that some of the enemies are just very poorly programmed with how their damage is tied to their animations. For example, the "swollen mongrel" giant dogs found in the gutter and Aldia's corrosion pit have a biting lunge attack that deals damage to the player before the animation noticeably activates. Maybe some of these issues have been patched or addressed, maybe there is some other netcode voodoo going on, but there definitely have been problems with just how the game itself was programmed.

When the hit is registering before the enemy is swinging it's definitely a netcode problem. (see rubber banding)

Thats utterly ridiculous if true. I shall play offline and see if its still there.

 

[jpax]

Dark souls 1 by a lot. Replaying it right now and I am only missing a few tiny things like climbing the ladders faster... I am again fascinated by the world design, the fluid animations, the graphics (playing on PC) and mostly the overall feeling. Dark souls 2 is good but not that good.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Only in the long term. I don't like Soul Memory in the slightest, but it doesn't retroactively ruin builds before it becomes a problem; at worst it gives characters an "expiration date".

Fair enough, that is a more accurate description.

 

[Sami+]

One thing I do want to bring up is the overall level of polish DkS2 has over its predecessors. Credit where it's due, some of the changes make it a bit harder to go back. I hope Bloodborne adopts and improves on this.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Dark Souls probably has a better designed game world. The way everything connected felt a little more cohesive and natural.

Dark Souls 2 has a number of improvements. I thought being able to fast travel to any previous bonfire as soon as you've visited it, was a major improvement. It takes way too long to earn fast travel in the original game.

Also Dark Souls 2 performance shit all over the original (on PC) anyway. The game looked and ran perfect out of the box on PC. I didn't have to worry about having a shitty framerate or modding DSFix or any of that other bullshit. Even my wireless Xbox controller worked better on DS2 for some reason.

Not sure which I prefer really. Both great games.

 

[CHC]

The latest DLC is not making this an easy verdict, it really pushes the cred of Dark Souls II up a lot. Definite toss up between games but I'd lean towards the first, mainly because Sen's Fortress is my personal favorite Souls level. It may not be the most perfect in every sense but to me it is the quintessial Souls experience.

 

[GECK]

lol

 

[Vlade]

1 for me

1 had a world with more of a sense of exploration and discovery and danger and trying a new thing. I liked bosses MUCH better too.

2 had better online integration and extremely interesting areas and a better interaction between stats and damage, but completely falls apart in the latter half of the game. Better covenants, and brilliant changes for ng+,++

You can't go wrong, but 1 is better.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

They're masterworks all, you can't go wrong.









=P

 

[NemesisHunter]

Dark Souls 1.

I compare the sequel to Batman Arkham City compared to Arkham Asylum: the gameplay has improved, and the mechanics are better, but the story is subjectively less impactful, and the atmosphere even less so.

That's not to say that Dark Souls 2 is a bad game: far from it. It just has to live up to a lot of what makes Dark Souls 1 a masterpiece, and it fails to achieve it.

 

[Riposte]

http://giant.gfycat.com/NarrowInfiniteFairybluebird.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]

This looks like he kills it just as it does its sweeping tackle move. Why wouldn't he get hit?

 

[Camp Lo]

demons >> dark 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dark

 

[AgentOtaku]

This is ludicrous. I adore DeS, but the rose tint is ridiculously strong with its fans.

From a graphical standpoint, DkS1 does more or less everything better than DeS. Shaders, clipping issues, armour detail, animation; the list goes on and on. It's just a more polished product, which makes sense, given it's a sequel on a much grander scale.

I mean, some of the transition animations for certain weapons are abysmal in DeS. They cut short and look spasmodic, etc. I can understand people preferring movesets, etc, but everything is objectively jankier. I find it hard to believe that people who vehemently say otherwise aren't letting their preference for the game cloud their judgement.

Agree

Overall visual fidelity is just better on Dark. I do however, still prefer Demons overall aesthetics (music, colors, story, etc.), even though it becomes too overbearing towards the end.

 

[Last Uchiha]

Dark Souls 1
simply because of locations, boss fights and enemies
but let me tell you something Demon Souls > Dark Souls 1 and 2 :]

 

[Brerlappin]

The Tomb and New Londo are fucking amazing compared to most of the crap in two

It's amazing how many people bring out the "highs and lows" fud about the two games when shit like the giant memories exist

YES

The giant memories are absolutely terrible. Far worse than anything in DS1. Memory of Jeigh in particular, is one of the shittiest things ive played this year.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Demon's>Dark>>>>>>Dark 2

I couldn't even bring myself to finish Dark Souls 2, I suffered up to the giant flashbacks and realized the only reason I was still playing was because of how much I like the other games.

 

[Anung]

demons >> dark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dark 2

All that truth.

 

[Croyles]

Dark Souls 1. I understand why people would like Demons Souls more than both too but for me the interconnected world of Dark Souls 1 and the, dare i say it, Metroidvania type of level design is what did it for me.

Ambient atmosphere was probably better in Demon's Souls but something about Dark Souls will just stay with me forever.
Level design in DS2 seemed mostly sloppy and uninspired. Same for the atmosphere/lore.

Dark Souls 1 was by no means perfect, but just felt a lot more coherent and thought out than 2 did.
Nothing like Sen's Fortress in 2. I am actually also a huge fan of Blighttown (bad framerate on consoles aside). Never felt so tense. No area in 2 came close imo to those imo.

I'm hoping Bloodborne will scratch that itch I have.

 

[JohnGrimm]

Dark Souls 1 takes it. It was better in almost every way.

They're masterworks all, you can't go wrong.

Not funny

 

[Riposte]

Dark Souls 1 was by no means perfect, but just felt a lot more coherent and thought out than 2 did.
Nothing like Sen's Fortress in 2. I am actually also a huge fan of Blighttown (bad framerate on consoles aside). Never felt so tense. No area in 2 came close imo to those imo.

Sen's Fortress has direct successors in Earthen Peak and Iron Keep, both of which I think are actually better (after the novelty of Sen's Fortress wears off). Blighttown I like more than The Gutter/Black Gulch, but they are very similar and the latter is pretty close in quality.

 

[Croyles]

Sen's Fortress has direct successors in Earthen Peak and Iron Keep, both of which I think are actually better (after the novelty of Sen's Fortress wears off). Blighttown I like more than The Gutter/Black Gulch, but they are very similar and the latter is pretty close in quality.

I disagree, but maybe it's just a matter of taste. I thought Iron keep was an ok area, but Earthen Peak was terrible imo, and that's without considering that awful "burn the windmill with a torch" mechanic.

The Black Gulch was just irritating. You figure everything out in the first 2 seconds but then realize you will have to spend 20 minutes destroying statues the first time you go through. The second time you just run through to get to where you want to go. Whereas in Blighttown, poison was being shot at you from different areas, you didn't really know what was shooting it and was only something you could "fix" a little later on. Build up and revenge.

They did a similar mechanic better in the DLC with the ghost knights, where you figure out that you have to destroy their Armour in that one room.

To me, Demon's and Dark Souls 1 are basically on par and whatever you prefer is down to personal taste, but I thought a lot of choices in Dark Souls 2 were just bad, despite the game being cleaned up in some other areas.

Level placement was also odd. You're in Earthen Peak, high-ish up in the world, then you take an elevator up that takes like 3 minutes and land in a place where a keep "sunk so far into the ground that lava started spewing out". Now that wouldn't even be a valid criticism for a video game if the world in DS1 didn't make so much sense and yet still provide plenty of wonder and awe.