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[Professor Beef]

Alright, it's all but done. Will post the link in a few minutes, I just have to make a PM really quick.

 

[Professor Beef]

It's been posted! http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=34669395#post34669395

 

[Vampire On Titus]

They're certainly the best part of SA2, but... there's nothing to them. All of the talk about how Sonic is and was "hold right to win" (or in the case of the 3D games, hold forward to win) is absolutely, 100% true in Sonic Adventure 2.

SA2's Sonic levels are the most linear and scripted levels in the entire franchise history. The entire game is spent lining yourself up for the next cinematic loop or series of springs, of which there are a lot. Thrilling the first time, but does not lend itself well to repeated playthroughs.

In a nut shell, all of the Sonic/Shadow levels in SA2 are basically just Speed Highway, over and over and over again (with a few rare exceptions, like Final Chase and Crazy Gadget). The amount of variety is super low, which is unsurprising, given the weird development cycle the game apparently had.



You really are a monster.

Disagree completely, They are just as much fun to try and nail the perfect run/ find all the different paths and tricks through a level as many of the Generations levels. The controls are arguably better. All modern 3D Sonic levels are super scripted, but SA2 levels are on the lower end of the spectrum. There are times where Sonic Unleashed felt like a series of level-long QTE's. Especially with how precise the timing and heavy the memorization was for the best path while boosting. Even the grinding sections in SA2 had a greater element of skill to them, in modern sonic games since then they've reduced the player input severely. (although im not saying that's necessarily detrimental, just less control and more scripted like)

SA2 also arguably has the best 3D Sonic controls, although Generations might be better, it's a toss up for me.

 

[Anth0ny]

They're certainly the best part of SA2, but... there's nothing to them. All of the talk about how Sonic is and was "hold right to win" (or in the case of the 3D games, hold forward to win) is absolutely, 100% true in Sonic Adventure 2.

SA2's Sonic levels are the most linear and scripted levels in the entire franchise history. The entire game is spent lining yourself up for the next cinematic loop or series of springs, of which there are a lot. Thrilling the first time, but does not lend itself well to repeated playthroughs.

But I know you've played Unleashed, Colors and Generations.

Why you gotta lie bro

 

[qq more]

But I know you've played Unleashed, Colors and Generations.

Why you gotta lie bro

Okay, now I know you haven't actually played Colors.


EDIT: Or Generations for that matter. Wtf, one of the best things about Generations is the amount of alternative paths for the 3D sections.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

Disagree completely, They are just as much fun to try and nail the perfect run/ find all the different paths and tricks through a level as many of the Generations levels. The controls are arguably better. All modern 3D Sonic levels are super scripted, but SA2 levels are on the lower end of the spectrum. There are times where Sonic Unleashed felt like a series of level-long QTE's. Especially with how precise the timing and heavy the memorization was for the best path while boosting. Even the grinding sections in SA2 had a greater element of skill to them, in modern sonic games since then they've reduced the player input severely. (although im not saying that's necessarily detrimental, just less control and more scripted like)

SA2 also arguably has the best 3D Sonic controls, although Generations might be better, it's a toss up for me.

But I know you've played Unleashed, Colors and Generations.

Why you gotta lie bro

I dunno, to me, SA2 feels like there's a lot of moments where I can put down the controller because I'm too busy being ricocheted through a dozen springs or I'm being forced around a loop.

Then there's grind rails, which are much more obviously rails in the traditional sense. They take you down a single straight path and rail switching is kept to a minimum (because rail switching back in those games was touchy as hell and it was very easy to kill yourself on accident).

Levels are all very obviously broken from the "highway suspended over a bottomless pit" mold, even when it doesn't make any sense, like Metal Harbor or Green Forest.

It all lends to a much greater sense of being funneled down a tube without much control over my character.

In something like Sonic Unleashed, you'd be surprised at the times the game actually lets you stop Sonic and turn around. There's usually not much reason to (though there are a few cleverly hidden sun/moon medals specifically stashed so the only way to find them is to stop boosting everywhere and crawl through the stage inch by inch).

Grind rails are usually positioned so that there's multiple rails to flip between, which is at least a little bit of engagement when you're going for medals or power-ups or what-have-you. When there aren't rails to flip between, that's generally because you're on a rail that is positioning you somehow; there was no difference in SA2, and some levels were built around long singular grind rail sequences where the only engagement was "don't accidentally fly off in to a pit".

Sonic Unleashed also better exposes some of the more "racing game" elements; while you can most definitely see how time trials work in SA2 if you look hard enough, Unleashed and Generations have gameplay elements that seem to directly reference driving games, as you have to pay a lot more attention to elements like proper cornering technique if you want to make good time.

You can say you see those levels as one long QTE, but to me, the QTE stuff feels like a very small portion of any given level (only the moments where it's overt). It took me more than an hour to get this run down, and it wasn't because I was messing up QTEs. It's because hitting everything exactly the way I wanted to hit it was pretty difficult.

In comparison, doing a "hitting everything exactly the way I wanted to hit it" run in a SA2 level feels like a much more simple task.

Think of it like threading a needle; in games like Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations, I'm actually threading 4 or 5 different needles in tandem, and the punishment for failing to thread them isn't too severe.

SA2 is like one big long piece of thread and one big giant needle, and failing to thread that usually results in some pretty significant punishment.

 

[Emitan]

Yes. You should have.

You should also open source them.

The SWTOR thread was open source. But in a really disorganized fashion.

 

[Gravijah]

city escape classic music is, sadly, very boring.

edit: somehow i've glitched a loop and now i'm walking on nothing!

 

[The Xtortionist]

You can say you see those levels as one long QTE, but to me, the QTE stuff feels like a very small portion of any given level (only the moments where it's overt). It took me more than an hour to get this run down, and it wasn't because I was messing up QTEs. It's because hitting everything exactly the way I wanted to hit it was pretty difficult.

Modern Sonic is almost as fun to watch as it is to play

SO FAST, SO PRETTY

 

[Vampire On Titus]

I dunno, to me, SA2 feels like there's a lot of moments where I can put down the controller because I'm too busy being ricocheted through a dozen springs or I'm being forced around a loop.

You really don't feel that more so in Unleashed or Generations? Generations a fair bit less so, but especially Unleashed, the controls were such that moving Sonic didnt feel entirely good unless boosting, and boosting through the entire level required a fair amount of repetitious memorization. Which is what I meant by feeling like a QTE, there's always an exact "right" moment to jump or avoid an obstacle, it's very binary.

Levels are all very obviously broken from the "highway suspended over a bottomless pit" mold, even when it doesn't make any sense, like Metal Harbor or Green Forest.

That dosen't mean the obsticals and actual levels are designed similarly, though. Also some levels in Generations have that feeling too, just cause a lot of the levels are suspended in some sort of abyss dosen't mean they all play the same.

In something like Sonic Unleashed, you'd be surprised at the times the game actually lets you stop Sonic and turn around. There's usually not much reason to (though there are a few cleverly hidden sun/moon medals specifically stashed so the only way to find them is to stop boosting everywhere and crawl through the stage inch by inch).

Well the reason it even makes sense to be surprised by that, is in fact how often that behavior leads to the game breaking or instant death.

Grind rails are usually positioned so that there's multiple rails to flip between, which is at least a little bit of engagement when you're going for medals or power-ups or what-have-you. When there aren't rails to flip between, that's generally because you're on a rail that is positioning you somehow; there was no difference in SA2, and some levels were built around long singular grind rail sequences where the only engagement was "don't accidentally fly off in to a pit".

Even grinding down the rail and actually maintaining speed required holding down the B button and controlling the direction of Sonic's "lean" with the analog stick during turns. In Gen and Unleashed you don't need to push anything. Again, I'm not saying it's not better, just definitely more scripted, less interaction.

Sonic Unleashed also better exposes some of the more "racing game" elements; while you can most definitely see how time trials work in SA2 if you look hard enough, Unleashed and Generations have gameplay elements that seem to directly reference driving games, as you have to pay a lot more attention to elements like proper cornering technique if you want to make good time.

I agree with this, drifting and all that, you don't really even need to look so hard.

 

[Anth0ny]

Okay, now I know you haven't actually played Colors.


EDIT: Or Generations for that matter. Wtf, one of the best things about Generations is the amount of alternative paths for the 3D sections.

There's alternate paths if you can control Sonic from going 100000000 mph. Most of the time I'm just holding forward/boost and making my way through the stages just fine.

This is not the case with Adventure 2.

Spoiler

remember, I have an irrational hate for modern sonic

 

[Gravijah]

but adventure 2 = modern sonic

 

[The Xtortionist]

There's alternate paths if you can control Sonic from going 100000000 mph. Most of the time I'm just holding forward/boost and making my way through the stages just fine.

I honestly don't know how. I introduced the game to a friend over Christmas and he was spamming boost, constantly running into walls and pits. Past Chemical Plant, Generations requires a ton of interaction.

 

[Professor Beef]

but adventure 2 = modern sonic

He likes Sonic 06, so logic isn't his strong suit.

 

[SoulUnison]

but adventure 2 = modern sonic

Adventure 2 isn't just Modern Sonic, it's *the Modern-est* Sonic.
He wears SOAP-Brand shoes and had a bracelet that looked like he stole it from a Power Ranger.

 

[Nyx]

18 euros at Zavvi today, bought.

Loved the demo, and I can use some old-school Sonic gameplay.

 

[R_thanatos]

SA2 is a sonic game that i didn't enjoy... sure there some good or ok sonic levels but 2/3 of the game you're in that small buggy area with knucles/rouge for no reason what so ever with a clear downgrade on the radar of SA1 . ANd then you have "tails on a plane " and robotnik sections pointless too..long boring why do i have to control a tank ..??

IN SA1 , E-10x missions were short and he was fast .. IN SA1 , tails can fly and he is fast too !!

City escape is a boring level , both in SA2 and in Generations The truck sequence is a shamefull sequence of SA1 and serve no prupose AT ALL

 

[Dark Schala]

city escape classic music is, sadly, very boring.

edit: somehow i've glitched a loop and now i'm walking on nothing!

You don't like singing along?

Modern Sonic is almost as fun to watch as it is to play

SO FAST, SO PRETTY

I totally agree. I love watching people speedrun those courses.

People usually say it's 'boost to win', but in the later games (ie: Unleashed and thereafter), it just feels like there's this pattern to the levels to memorize to get through them quickly and efficiently, not unlike stuff like Megaman or something like that. You aren't encouraged to boost all the time in Colours and Generations, so nailing the jumps, when to boost, when to slide and when to stomp (which is better than freefalling) is essential to getting a good time... and looking cool while doing it.

 

[WillyFive]

SA2 is a sonic game that i didn't enjoy... sure there some good or ok sonic levels but 2/3 of the game you're in that small buggy area with knucles/rouge for no reason what so ever with a clear downgrade on the radar of SA1 . ANd then you have "tails on a plane " and robotnik sections pointless too..long boring why do i have to control a tank ..??

IN SA1 , E-10x missions were short and he was fast .. IN SA1 , tails can fly and he is fast too !!

City escape is a boring level , both in SA2 and in Generations The truck sequence is a shamefull sequence of SA1 and serve no prupose AT ALL

Don't really agree with any of this.

Also, the truck scene was far better than the whale, since it was part of the story and made sense according to the level. The truck showed you how serious it was while also giving the game a classic action Sonic vibe that made it so memorable and not dumbed down by it's "realistic" aspects.

The whale from SA1 really did serve no purpose at all though, other than being a nice tech demo.

 

[Anth0ny]

but adventure 2 = modern sonic

I meant boost era modern sonic

and I don't like Sonic 06

I just hate boost

 

[R_thanatos]

Don't really agree with any of this.

Also, the truck scene was far better than the whale, since it was part of the story and made sense according to the level. The truck showed you how serious it was while also giving the game a classic action Sonic vibe that made it so memorable and not dumbed down by it's "realistic" aspects.

The whale from SA1 really did serve no purpose at all though, other than being a nice tech demo.

SO let me get this straight , sonic kidnnaped by the military, escape a plane with a skate/hover thing and glide across a city , suddenly get chased by a mad truck make sense ??

I fail to see what is memorable ( more memorable ) than the whale .. after hours and hours in SA , all i got was " oh same thing " ... the truck version in generation is actually crazy and cool as part of the level with more intterraction ( cool i guess ) but the original felt bland to me. Also there is nothing serious about that truc ( all version ) .

At least you have nothing to say about the boring shooting sections of SA2 ( yes borrring, clunking , buggued .. ) it's the same error they made with unleashed really , by wanting to use various gameplay they lost sight of what players want.

Spending +24 minutes in a night unleashed level with slow and less precise controls is boring .. ( combat wasn't bad but EACH TIME there was some platforming involved , you'd had to fight the slow sonic speed , the ackward collision detection and the level itself )
Spending +12 minute( average ) on a god damn pyramid with a tails riding a walking plane dying because slow as he is he couldn't jump properly is also boring ...

2/3 of SA2 is boring ...out of the 1/3 of the game is alright but suffers from some weird design issues .. i'd argue that SA2 added nothing good on the sonic formula.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Boost is soooo much fun. Sometimes I wish I could boost in real life. BOOST

 

[WillyFive]

SO let me get this straight , sonic kidnnaped by the military, escape a plane with a skate/hover thing and glide across a city , suddenly get chased by a mad truck make sense ??

Yes? It's a natural escalation of a chase scene that would be cool in the rock and roll-like Sonic universe. It fit perfectly.

I fail to see what is memorable ( more memorable ) than the whale .. after hours and hours in SA , all i got was " oh same thing " ... the truck version in generation is actually crazy and cool as part of the level with more intterraction ( cool i guess ) but the original felt bland to me. Also there is nothing serious about that truc ( all version ) .

At least you have nothing to say about the boring shooting sections of SA2 ( yes borrring, clunking , buggued .. ) it's the same error they made with unleashed really , by wanting to use various gameplay they lost sight of what players want.

Spending +24 minutes in a night unleashed level with slow and less precise controls is boring .. ( combat wasn't bad but EACH TIME there was some platforming involved , you'd had to fight the slow sonic speed , the ackward collision detection and the level itself )
Spending +12 minute( average ) on a god damn pyramid with a tails riding a walking plane dying because slow as he is he couldn't jump properly is also boring ...

2/3 of SA2 is boring ...out of the 1/3 of the game is alright but suffers from some weird design issues .. i'd argue that SA2 added nothing good on the sonic formula.

The shooting sections of SA2 were great. It's the hunting levels that were boring (and they were a great improvement over those from SA1).

 

[R_thanatos]

Yes? It's a natural escalation of a chase scene that would be cool in the rock and roll-like Sonic universe. It fit perfectly.

The shooting sections of SA2 were great. It's the hunting levels that were boring (and they were a great improvement over those from SA1).

Have we played the same game ?
-problems with hunting levels in SA2
-> Radar reduced ( In SA1 , the placement of the objects is random BUT your radar can see the whole level meaning that you could see 2 objects at once ) You're not wasting your time visiting some place Twice because the object wasn't active last time you checked ..you're wasting time in a level , in rooms you have already checked .. Annoying , waste of my time .
-> levels in SA1 were bigger and you were in familiar territory ..you're not lost in that ( AGAIN )pyramid or that halloween town because the level design not only is BAD but you're in unfamiliar territory , again WASTING MY TIME.
-> actual danger while looking in SA1 . IN SA2 those levels are either void of ennemies , or just filled with traps ( Pyramid again !! )
-> forgettable music( untill you spent 45 minutes in that level and by that time you're brainwashed )

-Problem with robotnik/tails sections
->It's slow ( Do i need to explain the difference between tails in SA1 and tails in SA2 ?? )
-> Why do i need to 4 lock shot each freaking door ?
->The player is unable in most cases to judge how to explore properly ... because the jumping is horrible. There is this part in the latter levels where you have to go 0G accros to reach another part of the level , but the floating hability of these 2 devices Doesn't make sense & you have no indication how long you can stay a float ..
How i love failing into the depth of space or buried under the sand because 1 ramdom object completly destroy either machine momentum ?
-> The ennemies pose no challenge AT ALL ..EVER Why are they here ? You're not losing life because of the ennemies but because the ships control like crap.
-> the levels are in most cases too long with no side paths or way to explore ... it's just a waste of time ONE PATH ONLY ... i found 1 variation to this rule but that was a matter of jumping left to reach a 20 ring bonus or jump right to kill 4 ennemies ... Once you might find a switch leading you towards 10 rings.. ( yeah /s )

 

[Gravijah]

You don't like singing along?

to the classic version? no way!

but now i have the modern version stuck in my head. :/

 

[Professor Beef]

Boost is soooo much fun. Sometimes I wish I could boost in real life. BOOST

Such a time-saver!

 

[Emitan]

(click)

They spelled it wrong lololol

 

[Diablohead]

(click)

They spelled it wrong lololol

what, colour?

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

Yes? It's a natural escalation of a chase scene that would be cool in the rock and roll-like Sonic universe. It fit perfectly.



The shooting sections of SA2 were great. It's the hunting levels that were boring (and they were a great improvement over those from SA1).

I can't agree. Controlling the robo-walkers felt like piloting clunky refrigerators down narrow alleyways. This wasn't helped by the camera auto positioning itself into corners and walls making traversal and targeting a chore. When I need to position my laser off-screen to target enemies I can't see yet there's a problem.

E-102's controls in comparison felt much more sleek and smooth. Stages generally had more room for movement (going from a walk, to run, jumping to hovering felt so natural), a more cooperative camera (at least more than SA2..) and aiming was fast and easy to do. A lot less clunk in movement and stage design overall.

Tails had no business being in a mech, considering his style of play from SA1 was fast, fun and a welcome variation from Sonic. The skin swap copy and paste job from SA2 was baffling decision. I'm starting to believe the game started off as a Sonic/Knuckles/Eggman game only.


As for SA2's story, I didn't care much for it's content or execution. Characters stepping on eachother's lines, horrific spastic pacing, creepy mo-cap, weird strange environment flow, jarring scenes and cuts. Nothing seemed thought out at all. SA1 had a way more appropriate take for a Sonic story connected with a nice cohesive world and stages. Very simple setups for completing a stage, like saving Amy or Tails, pursuing the Egg Carrier, etc, all leading up to a simple finale. SA2 on the other hand has an incomprehensible flow to events "OH CRAP A TRUCK SONICS IN JAIL KNUCKLES HATES BATGIRL SMASHED MASTER EMERALD WE'RE IN FOREST NOW OH CRAP EXPLOSION THE MOON BLEW UP LETS RIDE PRESIDENT'S LIMOUSINE NOW PYRAMIDS TIME BUT WAIT LOOK SPACE OH CRAP RACE POOCHIE!!"

It just seems so forced and disorganized, compared to the much more natural easy-going presentation in the first game.

in before loldiscussingstoryinasonicgame.jpg

edit: just noticed this isn't the community thread. oh wellz

 

[Emitan]

what, colour?

Yeah im just joking

 

[Emitan]

A non final boss should not take this long!

 

[Gravijah]

http://i.minus.com/kbyYZ39bVGhEWa.jpg[/MG][/URL]

A non final boss should not take this long![/QUOTE]

kill faster

 

[Emitan]

my first time!

 

[Gravijah]

i should play some more, but i'm still angry at my ps3 controller. :/

 

[Dark Schala]

A non final boss should not take this long!

Practice makes perfect. But to be fair, it's from Unleashed where all the levels in that game are long!

i should play some more, but i'm still angry at my ps3 controller. :/

How come?

 

[The Xtortionist]

One time I didn't touch my PS3 for about 6 months and when I got the controller out of a drawer, I found the top of the sticks to be very sticky (as in gooey sticky) and covered in hair.

feels bad man

 

[Gravijah]

How come?

left joystick gets stuck moving forward a bit, and in a game like sonic generations there's no deadzone. i can play with the d-pad fine, but it sort of killed my generations mood temporarily. i'll pick it back up tomorrow, though.

 

[Emitan]

Practice makes perfect. But to be fair, it's from Unleashed where all the levels in that game are long!?

It's also the most confusing boss fight ever. How do you make a Sonic boss confusing? Jump on it until it dies. The end.

 

[WillyFive]

I can't agree. Controlling the robo-walkers felt like piloting clunky refrigerators down narrow alleyways. This wasn't helped by the camera auto positioning itself into corners and walls making traversal and targeting a chore. When I need to position my laser off-screen to target enemies I can't see yet there's a problem.

E-102's controls in comparison felt much more sleek and smooth. Stages generally had more room for movement (going from a walk, to run, jumping to hovering felt so natural), a more cooperative camera (at least more than SA2..) and aiming was fast and easy to do. A lot less clunk in movement and stage design overall.

Tails had no business being in a mech, considering his style of play from SA1 was fast, fun and a welcome variation from Sonic. The skin swap copy and paste job from SA2 was baffling decision. I'm starting to believe the game started off as a Sonic/Knuckles/Eggman game only.


As for SA2's story, I didn't care much for it's content or execution. Characters stepping on eachother's lines, horrific spastic pacing, creepy mo-cap, weird strange environment flow, jarring scenes and cuts. Nothing seemed thought out at all. SA1 had a way more appropriate take for a Sonic story connected with a nice cohesive world and stages. Very simple setups for completing a stage, like saving Amy or Tails, pursuing the Egg Carrier, etc, all leading up to a simple finale. SA2 on the other hand has an incomprehensible flow to events "OH CRAP A TRUCK SONICS IN JAIL KNUCKLES HATES BATGIRL SMASHED MASTER EMERALD WE'RE IN FOREST NOW OH CRAP EXPLOSION THE MOON BLEW UP LETS RIDE PRESIDENT'S LIMOUSINE NOW PYRAMIDS TIME BUT WAIT LOOK SPACE OH CRAP RACE POOCHIE!!"

It just seems so forced and disorganized, compared to the much more natural easy-going presentation in the first game.

in before loldiscussingstoryinasonicgame.jpg

edit: just noticed this isn't the community thread. oh wellz

I'm not saying SA2 is a perfect game. It certainly wasn't when it came out, and it has aged terribly (not as much as SA1, but still a lot).

But I can't see any way that SA1 was better. Although the content of SA2 may have split fans, it was actually a finished game, unlike SA1 which felt like it was put together by duct tape and was rushed to make the launch of the Dreamcast (which it was).

E-Gamma's stages were pitifully short and uninteresting, as well as being but short sections from the bigger Sonic stages. SA2's shooting sections had meatier, better levels that were unique and had more gameplay.

What Tails was doing in a giant robot is kinda irrelevant to me, honestly. SA2 was a far more focused, polished, and better game.

Also, SA2's story is definitely better than SA1. Sure, you might not like the direction it took the series, but it was still a far improvement over the generic fluff of SA1 (with those awful animations and voice acting).

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I'm starting to believe the game started off as a Sonic/Knuckles/Eggman game only.

There's evidence to suggest this. DavidTL over at Sonic Retro tracked down and sourced a lot of articles about Sonic Adventure 2's development history (I remember talking with him about this), and if you go back far enough, Sonic Adventure 2 was originally a pretty different game. I mean, consider the fact that midway through development, the logo style completely changed:

The original logo

The final logo

You go from a fairly serious, white-on-black motif to something far more colorful and... happy, I guess. The theme of light-versus-dark was most likely a much bigger part of the original storyline, and I think there were rumors going around at the time that the original storyline was a lot more serious than what we ended up getting (and there are descriptions of heretofore unseen SA2 concept art to back this up, as early versions of Shadow's design apparently depicted him with gnarly scars and crippled appendages).

This drastic change is also suggested in other things; one big concern early in SA2's development cycle was where Tails was - early screenshots depicted only Sonic, Knuckles, Eggman, and the mysterious "Dark Sonic" character (Shadow). I guess fan outcry grew to such a point that Sonic Team finally announced they were going back through and adding Tails, among other "familiar faces" (Amy Rose, perhaps - she serves no purpose in the game's storyline. They could've also been talking about multiplayer skins, given the appearance of Tikal and Chaos, etc.).

Adding Tails is most likely when the idea of having rival characters was born. Shadow and Rouge were always part of SA2's storyline as far as anyone is aware, but they were most likely not always playable characters, and only became playable characters when Tails was added to the mix. In a game that was always about light and dark, it was most likely broken out like this originally:

Sonic - "Good" campaign
Knuckles - "Neutral" campaign
Eggman - "Evil" campaign

Levels for Tails, Rouge, and Shadow had to be borrowed and re-purposed from content for Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman. This is because of another feature, described in the Official Dreamcast Magazine in the US: Sonic Adventure 2's "branching storyline paths".

At certain points in the game, during cutscenes or what-have-you, you would be given a choice on what you wanted to do next. Depending on what you chose, you would be sent to a different level. The example famously given was that Sonic would be trapped in a submarine and you could either pick to take the controls and try and pilot the sub to safety, or to pop the hatch and take your chances in the water. It's not difficult to imagine that scenario in the context of the game we ended up getting - the submarine is at Metal Harbor, and one option takes you to Green Forest and the other ends at White Jungle.

I'm actually disappointed that with all of the concept art in Sonic Generations that there wasn't more for SA2. I would've loved to see some of this stuff with my own eyes, but I imagine a lot of that stuff is packed away in storage rooms and garages... so instead, we get ten environment shots for Crisis City from Sonic 2006. Whoopee.

 

[R_thanatos]

I'm not saying SA2 is a perfect game. It certainly wasn't when it came out, and it has aged terribly (not as much as SA1, but still a lot).

But I can't see any way that SA1 was better. Although the content of SA2 may have split fans, it was actually a finished game, unlike SA1 which felt like it was put together by duct tape and was rushed to make the launch of the Dreamcast (which it was).

E-Gamma's stages were pitifully short and uninteresting, as well as being but short sections from the bigger Sonic stages. SA2's shooting sections had meatier, better levels that were unique and had more gameplay.

What Tails was doing in a giant robot is kinda irrelevant to me, honestly. SA2 was a far more focused, polished, and better game.

Also, SA2's story is definitely better than SA1. Sure, you might not like the direction it took the series, but it was still a far improvement over the generic fluff of SA1 (with those awful animations and voice acting).

I think the total opposite..
The SA1 story had cohesion ..SA 1 was indeed rushed but they just didn't debug it enough .
Everyone levels were variants version of sonic levels that's the whole point ... using each habilities to explore each level differenty... MOst of them did have enough variants ( an actual level design ) to enhance exploration ... in SA2 you are mostly on rails .

SA2 shooting sections have nothing to do in a sonic game ... that's another point proven by shadow the hedgehog ..Shooting for an extended amount of time is boring , especially when you are so slow.

SA2 animations are indeed better but that's because SA2 came after ...

Also i'd take a generic and simple plot over a convulted and complex plot ... any day

 

[Juicy Bob]

I've never played SA2, but I'd love to one day. Was hoping they'd do it as a downloadable for consoles like they did for SAX.

 

[Diablohead]

I've never played SA2, but I'd love to one day. Was hoping they'd do it as a downloadable for consoles like they did for SAX.

sega would butcher up sa2 to the point of making it worse, the DC version is 60fps and one of the best looking games on the system, the xbl port of sonic adventure is really bad, unstable frame rate, non widescreen and has a border around the edges for no good reason, even the top and bottom of the screen has a border!

Unless they port it to keep the 60fps and get widescreen in there, leave it on dc.

 

[R_thanatos]

sega would butcher up sa2 to the point of making it worse, the DC version is 60fps and one of the best looking games on the system, the xbl port of sonic adventure is really bad, unstable frame rate, non widescreen and has a border around the edges for no good reason, even the top and bottom of the screen has a border!

Unless they port it to keep the 60fps and get widescreen in there, leave it on dc.

i think that the PC port of SA1 was well done with a stable framerate and plenty of goodies .

 

[TimmiT]

Someone from Russia managed to switch Sonic's model with other characters: http://board.sonicstadium.org/topic...ds-topic/page__st__340__p__433717#entry433717

Also, Unleashed levels now have global illumination: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idEplp9mDNM

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

There's evidence to suggest this. DavidTL over at Sonic Retro tracked down and sourced a lot of articles about Sonic Adventure 2's development history[URL] (I remember talking with him about this), and if you go back far enough, Sonic Adventure 2 was originally a pretty different game. I mean, consider the fact that midway through development, the logo style completely changed:
http://i.imgur.com/WRciU.jpg/IMG]
The original logo
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/96TbE.png/IMG]
The final logo
You go from a fairly serious, white-on-black motif to something far more colorful and... happy, I guess. The theme of light-versus-dark was most likely a much bigger part of the original storyline, and I think there were rumors going around at the time that the original storyline was a lot more serious than what we ended up getting (and there are descriptions of heretofore unseen SA2 concept art to back this up, as early versions of Shadow's design apparently depicted him with gnarly scars and crippled appendages).

This drastic change is also suggested in other things; one big concern early in SA2's development cycle was where Tails was - early screenshots depicted only Sonic, Knuckles, Eggman, and the mysterious "Dark Sonic" character (Shadow). I guess fan outcry grew to such a point that Sonic Team finally announced they were going back through and adding Tails, among other "familiar faces" (Amy Rose, perhaps - she serves no purpose in the game's storyline. They could've also been talking about multiplayer skins, given the appearance of Tikal and Chaos, etc.).

Adding Tails is most likely when the idea of having rival characters was born. Shadow and Rouge were always part of SA2's storyline as far as anyone is aware, but they were most likely not always playable characters, and only became playable characters when Tails was added to the mix. In a game that was always about light and dark, it was most likely broken out like this originally:

Sonic - "Good" campaign
Knuckles - "Neutral" campaign
Eggman - "Evil" campaign

Levels for Tails, Rouge, and Shadow had to be borrowed and re-purposed from content for Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman. This is because of another feature, described in the Official Dreamcast Magazine in the US: Sonic Adventure 2's "branching storyline paths".

At certain points in the game, during cutscenes or what-have-you, you would be given a choice on what you wanted to do next. Depending on what you chose, you would be sent to a different level. The example famously given was that Sonic would be trapped in a submarine and you could either pick to take the controls and try and pilot the sub to safety, or to pop the hatch and take your chances in the water. It's not difficult to imagine that scenario in the context of the game we ended up getting - the submarine is at Metal Harbor, and one option takes you to Green Forest and the other ends at White Jungle.

I'm actually disappointed that with all of the concept art in Sonic Generations that there wasn't more for SA2. I would've loved to see some of this stuff with my own eyes, but I imagine a lot of that stuff is packed away in storage rooms and garages... so instead, we get ten environment shots for Crisis City from Sonic 2006. [I]Whoopee[/I].[/QUOTE]
Wow, this is extremely fascinating and suprisingly makes a lot of sense. One aspect from Sonic games I love is the behind the scenes chaos from their games' development. Things like the Hidden Palace Zone, Sonic Xtreme, that strange version of Windy Valley, Sonic 06's early tech stuff and other prototype things really fascinate me. Had no idea about SA2's development. I wonder if they've ever been asked directly about that.

 

[Emitan]

Someone from Russia managed to switch Sonic's model with other characters: http://board.sonicstadium.org/topic...ds-topic/page__st__340__p__433717#entry433717

Also, Unleashed levels now have global illumination: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idEplp9mDNM

Spoiler

"You're too slow!"

 

[Sciz]

early screenshots depicted only Sonic, Knuckles, Eggman, and the mysterious "Dark Sonic" character (Shadow).

Never mind screenshots, that's what the entire debut trailer spent its time showing off.

 

[TimmiT]

Spoiler

"You're too slow!"

Didn't see it mentioned in this topic, thought it should be posted here considering it is the Generations thread.

 

[Emitan]

Didn't see it mentioned in this topic, thought it should be posted here considering it is the Generations thread.

Oh, oops. I get the threads confused!