I cut out most of this because I didn't want to quote such a large post but I have to say I agree with all of your criticisms.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
I cut out most of this because I didn't want to quote such a large post but I have to say I agree with all of your criticisms.
Poe was specifically targeting some big power connector looking things on his attack run at the end.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Well in Kylo's defense, his helmet was on some Goku/DBZ levels of heavy.
Starkiller base area he was in, was one big energy containment unit. A strong enough blast was good enough to knock that shit back.
Like shooting a bullet at a gas station.
A bullet can leave a small hole in a person but cause a big explosion when it hits the right element.
Actually that's something I'm confused about so she was being lead away from the ship by someone and I assumed with the whole ration thing she was in kinda an Anakin endentured servitude type deal. And she too good with the staff to have not had some training.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Hence unTRAINED. Growing up and learning to fight as a matter of survival is not the same as being trained. You wouldn't compare an MMA fighter to a random street brawler would you? People seem to think untrained = never been in a fight before, when untrained, means untrained. Lacking training. Training being some sort of formal study of a martial art or fighting style
It is one of, if not the biggest, media franchise in the world. Some people have been waiting 10 years to see a new SW movie and 30+ years to see one take place after ROTJ. Not to mention it has both mainstream and geek/nerd appeal, and pretty much appeals to all demographics
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
He was firing torpedoes at that part, not laser blasts. The shots were white/purplish.
I certainly like the movie a lot more than others. I knew that a new Star Wars movie would be heavily analyzed and critiqued but holy shit do people go overboard in my opinion.
I can only hope the next two movies stay the course. The Force Awakens is exactly how I want Star Wars to be.
I can only hope the next two movies stay the course. The Force Awakens is exactly how I want Star Wars to be.
BluePigGanon
Member
It's funny, every time he dropped it I was like, dude just remember to lift with your knees.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Yeah, I like this track a lot. I'm actually quite a fan of the score. Glad Williams did it.
The X-Wing cannons were causing massive explosions on the Death Star 1 exterior surface too. I just think that moment where he is also clearing the troopers on the ground with surgical precision after killing like 8 Ties in a row was a bit too much.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
This is just silly.
Rey is a competent trained fighter. She grew up alone in a harsh environment, so she learned to defend herself. And even beyond that, her job demanded her to be very physically fit. So calling her untrained or weak is just stupid and ignorant of her character.
Shes also clearly very strong in the force. THAT is her untrained side, but she embraces it without the doubt that crippled Luke before, so her embracing and learning it quicker makes sense. Remember Empire, Luke said its impossible and Yoda said "that is why you fail." Belief, confidence, those are the keys to being a strong force user. Rey shows those qualities. Shes a natural.
Now lets look again at Kylo. HE HAS A BOLT IN HIS STOMACH AND HIS EMOTIONS ARE IN A HAYWIRE BECAUSE HE JUST KILLED HIS DAD AND HES STRUGGLING TO IGNORE THE PULL OF THE LIGHT. Its stupid how much this has to be emphasized too. Insane. He was severely crippled. But oh, Finn gets one random lucky nick in and suddenly Kylo is garbage. Dont forget how as soon as he gets that hit in Kylo basically goes "ok enough dickin around, were done" and knocks Finn the fuck out. Finn didnt almost win, he never stood a chance. He got one lucky fluke in, thats it.
Then, Kylo clearly toys with Rey because he doesnt want to kill her. Hes supposed to bring her to Snoke. He keeps her on the defensive the whole fight. Its only at the end when she embraces the force that she surprises him. He is surprised by her sudden force guided talent and unready to defend himself in his severely weakened state, which finally shows its limits in a single short moment of failure.
God forbid we finally get a villain in progress that isnt insta-OP the minute they decide to use the dark side. Having a real character as a villain instead of just a big metaphorical fist is a wonderful change. Kylo is gonna come back from this with a vengence. Hes gonna learn from his mistake like Luke did in Empire. Hes gonna have actual growth and progression, not just be a static rock. Bravo JJ and Kasdan.
Rey is a competent trained fighter. She grew up alone in a harsh environment, so she learned to defend herself. And even beyond that, her job demanded her to be very physically fit. So calling her untrained or weak is just stupid and ignorant of her character.
Shes also clearly very strong in the force. THAT is her untrained side, but she embraces it without the doubt that crippled Luke before, so her embracing and learning it quicker makes sense. Remember Empire, Luke said its impossible and Yoda said "that is why you fail." Belief, confidence, those are the keys to being a strong force user. Rey shows those qualities. Shes a natural.
Now lets look again at Kylo. HE HAS A BOLT IN HIS STOMACH AND HIS EMOTIONS ARE IN A HAYWIRE BECAUSE HE JUST KILLED HIS DAD AND HES STRUGGLING TO IGNORE THE PULL OF THE LIGHT. Its stupid how much this has to be emphasized too. Insane. He was severely crippled. But oh, Finn gets one random lucky nick in and suddenly Kylo is garbage. Dont forget how as soon as he gets that hit in Kylo basically goes "ok enough dickin around, were done" and knocks Finn the fuck out. Finn didnt almost win, he never stood a chance. He got one lucky fluke in, thats it.
Then, Kylo clearly toys with Rey because he doesnt want to kill her. Hes supposed to bring her to Snoke. He keeps her on the defensive the whole fight. Its only at the end when she embraces the force that she surprises him. He is surprised by her sudden force guided talent and unready to defend himself in his severely weakened state, which finally shows its limits in a single short moment of failure.
God forbid we finally get a villain in progress that isnt insta-OP the minute they decide to use the dark side. Having a real character as a villain instead of just a big metaphorical fist is a wonderful change. Kylo is gonna come back from this with a vengence. Hes gonna learn from his mistake like Luke did in Empire. Hes gonna have actual growth and progression, not just be a static rock. Bravo JJ and Kasdan.
Kitschkraft
Member
Uhhh..
Yeah, sure, but this is a movie.
Movie logic dictates that she has competent fighting skills.
C'mon.
And her moves are never as precise as Kylo's anyways.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Also the X-wings in the OT are 2-3 times the size as the ones in the Force Awakens.
My second viewing finally happened. (Note: I haven't seen a movie in theaters more than once since The Dark Knight in 2008)
The crowd was a lot larger than my opening day matinee (but to be fair it was a different theater, under different circumstances with more people probably being on vacation). The audio was better this time around, while the projection itself was slightly less sharp and bright.
Overall, my positives were about the same, with less emotional surprise since I knew what was going to happen (obviously). My negatives, on the other hand, were very different, mostly being significantly diminished.
I remembered being almost angry at some of the name-drops in the dialogue the first time around, but this time the only moment that came off as notably bad was when Snoke says "your father HAN SOLO." Snoke himself didn't visually repel me as much since I knew he was a giant hologram from the start this time, but he's still an inferior moment of visual execution if not a completely bad design. And speaking of character visual designs, I still wish Maz Kanata was done a little better even though she's not a deal breaker.
Starkiller Base didn't bother me as much, even though the movie could have served itself well by briefly and more adeptly explaining the political situation, how the factions in play interact with that status quo, and how things are changing based on the First Order's Pearl Harbor moment. The Resistance assault on the base still could have been better, but I payed closer attention to how it played out this time and can now actually remember the beats. The biggest issue I had with the last act is that the editing between the X-Wing scenes and the Finn/Rey/Kylo battle could be better.
The music was also significantly more noticeable for me this time around. Previously I was teetering on the edge of supporting Bobby Roberts' idea that maybe it would have been better to hand the keys over to Michael Giacchino, but now I'd say John Williams did a good enough job to justify his continued work on the series. The biggest musical weak points are that The Resistance doesn't have a particularly good theme, and that Kylo Ren/The First Order's themes aren't quite good enough. Rey's theme, despite people talking about it as if it's throughout the whole movie, actually felt less present to me this time around, even though it's pretty good. I only noticed it occasionally in her first scenes, and near the very end of the film.
A big change for me was that the end scene at the "First Jedi Temple" seemed a lot shorter now. I thought there were about 1 or 2 additional cuts between Rey and Luke in their little stare down, but it was a lot tighter than that and I don't really hate the ending shot anymore. I wouldn't have done it myself, but the helicopter shot wasn't as jarring and fades out quick enough anyway.
The performances were still very good to me, with Adam Driver being the biggest improvement the second time around. I didn't dislike him the first time, but it's much easier to appreciate the performance when you know what he's fully going for. It's almost unbelievable how well they nailed the new cast. Rey and Finn are still tops for me, but Kylo is coming in at a closer third. And honestly, Carrie Fisher was better than I remembered as well. Her voice isn't all there anymore, but I really didn't have a problem with her line readings this time around while her visual presence is more commanding than I previously thought.
I had been spoiled a day before I saw the film that Han would die, so I kind of bitter as it happened, but this time my heart was racing in the lead up to that moment. Very effectively done for the most part.
As to the lightsaber duels at the end, I'd say I appreciated Finn vs. Kylo a little more this time around, and was even more perplexed by the people complaining about Rey being too strong against Kylo. She's on the run and continually treading water for about 75% of the fight, and only in a moment where the mystical side of all things related to the Force takes over does she turn the situation against him. it is insane to me that anyone could watch that and think it was "unrealistic" or that Rey comes off as too competent.
All in all, I am more pleased with the movie as time goes by. My biggest issues now by far are based on my fear of missteps in the next two films. Will they be stupid enough to make terrible fan theories into reality like Rey= Palpatine Clone, Snoke=Plagueis, or Rey= reincarnated Vader? Will they give Rey a two-sided lightsaber that is half yellow and half blue? I hope not, but I don't know if Rian Johnson and Colin Trevorrow will "get it" the same way that J.J. clearly did (despite not being perfect) and show the proper restraint to save us for all time from prequel-level mistakes. But for now, I can comfortably embrace the good movie that we've got.
The crowd was a lot larger than my opening day matinee (but to be fair it was a different theater, under different circumstances with more people probably being on vacation). The audio was better this time around, while the projection itself was slightly less sharp and bright.
Overall, my positives were about the same, with less emotional surprise since I knew what was going to happen (obviously). My negatives, on the other hand, were very different, mostly being significantly diminished.
I remembered being almost angry at some of the name-drops in the dialogue the first time around, but this time the only moment that came off as notably bad was when Snoke says "your father HAN SOLO." Snoke himself didn't visually repel me as much since I knew he was a giant hologram from the start this time, but he's still an inferior moment of visual execution if not a completely bad design. And speaking of character visual designs, I still wish Maz Kanata was done a little better even though she's not a deal breaker.
Starkiller Base didn't bother me as much, even though the movie could have served itself well by briefly and more adeptly explaining the political situation, how the factions in play interact with that status quo, and how things are changing based on the First Order's Pearl Harbor moment. The Resistance assault on the base still could have been better, but I payed closer attention to how it played out this time and can now actually remember the beats. The biggest issue I had with the last act is that the editing between the X-Wing scenes and the Finn/Rey/Kylo battle could be better.
The music was also significantly more noticeable for me this time around. Previously I was teetering on the edge of supporting Bobby Roberts' idea that maybe it would have been better to hand the keys over to Michael Giacchino, but now I'd say John Williams did a good enough job to justify his continued work on the series. The biggest musical weak points are that The Resistance doesn't have a particularly good theme, and that Kylo Ren/The First Order's themes aren't quite good enough. Rey's theme, despite people talking about it as if it's throughout the whole movie, actually felt less present to me this time around, even though it's pretty good. I only noticed it occasionally in her first scenes, and near the very end of the film.
A big change for me was that the end scene at the "First Jedi Temple" seemed a lot shorter now. I thought there were about 1 or 2 additional cuts between Rey and Luke in their little stare down, but it was a lot tighter than that and I don't really hate the ending shot anymore. I wouldn't have done it myself, but the helicopter shot wasn't as jarring and fades out quick enough anyway.
The performances were still very good to me, with Adam Driver being the biggest improvement the second time around. I didn't dislike him the first time, but it's much easier to appreciate the performance when you know what he's fully going for. It's almost unbelievable how well they nailed the new cast. Rey and Finn are still tops for me, but Kylo is coming in at a closer third. And honestly, Carrie Fisher was better than I remembered as well. Her voice isn't all there anymore, but I really didn't have a problem with her line readings this time around while her visual presence is more commanding than I previously thought.
I had been spoiled a day before I saw the film that Han would die, so I kind of bitter as it happened, but this time my heart was racing in the lead up to that moment. Very effectively done for the most part.
As to the lightsaber duels at the end, I'd say I appreciated Finn vs. Kylo a little more this time around, and was even more perplexed by the people complaining about Rey being too strong against Kylo. She's on the run and continually treading water for about 75% of the fight, and only in a moment where the mystical side of all things related to the Force takes over does she turn the situation against him. it is insane to me that anyone could watch that and think it was "unrealistic" or that Rey comes off as too competent.
All in all, I am more pleased with the movie as time goes by. My biggest issues now by far are based on my fear of missteps in the next two films. Will they be stupid enough to make terrible fan theories into reality like Rey= Palpatine Clone, Snoke=Plagueis, or Rey= reincarnated Vader? Will they give Rey a two-sided lightsaber that is half yellow and half blue? I hope not, but I don't know if Rian Johnson and Colin Trevorrow will "get it" the same way that J.J. clearly did (despite not being perfect) and show the proper restraint to save us for all time from prequel-level mistakes. But for now, I can comfortably embrace the good movie that we've got.
UnemployedVillain
Member
True, and I'm sure there will be pivotal tracks when the new trilogy is all said and done, but from the OT we had the main theme and the Imperial march and even in the PT we had Duel of the Fates (probably my favorite SW track ever)
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Star Wars is one of those certain films, though.
Star Wars scores are about being "in your face with its presence."
It's a good score. It's just the least of the Star Wars scores.
Before Mike Tyson hit the ring he was fighting off people in the streets so a person can be talented without having to train.
But this is a movie so that example is silly, she was shown to be a very capable fighter so that's really all the explanation you need to know she's a good fighter.
And if we're talking about training Snoke said Kylo Ren hadn't completed his training so how are we supposed to know how strong he is compared to Rey?
It feels like some of you guys wanted the movie to explain every single thing. Should they have shown a flashback to her fighting people or her being trained some some alien?
excelsiorlef
Member
People don't watch movies anymore
Seriously between this and the guy last night saying Snoke didnt care about Luke despite those two expository scenes where Snoke outright admits that both Starkiller attacks were on the fly plan B to stop Leia from finding Luke because it's extremely important that Luke not return and bring the Jedi back.
LordOfChaos
Member
A lot of people are dismissing Finns skills as "a stormtrooper in sanitation" in this thread. Read "Before the Awakening". Sanitation may have been his side duty, but he was in the top 1% of Stormtroopers in all his testing. Think about it, if he was a janitor in armour why would he be in the attack force. Nah, that sanitation line was just about what he did apart from troopering, he was still one of the best troopers.
So to the other recurring post of Kylo "losing to amateurs", he bested Fin, who was trained as an elite soldier from his kidnapping at ~5 (?), while he had a hole in him. I mean, he's still nooby compared to full sith lords, but he's not one yet, he's getting up there.
So to the other recurring post of Kylo "losing to amateurs", he bested Fin, who was trained as an elite soldier from his kidnapping at ~5 (?), while he had a hole in him. I mean, he's still nooby compared to full sith lords, but he's not one yet, he's getting up there.
Grover Cleveland
Member
I liked it, but I felt all these similarities to ANH brought it down somewhat. The token bar scene... lol Music was nowhere as memorable as in the bar scene in a ANH. Also they are looking for a droid AGAIN? Rey in a desertesque planet like Luke in Tatooine? Once again a super big planet destroyer thing gets blown up? Just too many similarities.
The scene where they showed a size comparison between Death Star 1.0 and the new Death Star thingy, was lol. Bigger, badder etc... They should've just gone with "That's no planet... that's a space station" since they were so eager to borrow so many story beats from ANH.
I'm not sold on Kylo Ren, he is not threatening and the fact that he uses a mask with a voice modulator to become a cheap Darth Vader imitation trying to cosplay just make it hard to take him seriously (I know, I know he idolizes Vader but to me it just doesn't work), the tantrums he threw were funny but not in a good way. Just seems like he is just a spoiled brat that wanted to act and look cool but failed at both.
Still there's stuff I like. BB8 was adorable, I like Rey and Finn. Just hoping Finn doesn't become a jedi, the dude is awesome as he is, him becoming a jedi would ruin his character IMO.
overall I give it a 7/10. ANH and ESB still unbeaten. Definitely better than any of the prequels though. I'm hoping we get a proper villain in Episode 8, a no nonsense guy, basically someone on the same level as Darth Vader in the OT.
The scene where they showed a size comparison between Death Star 1.0 and the new Death Star thingy, was lol. Bigger, badder etc... They should've just gone with "That's no planet... that's a space station" since they were so eager to borrow so many story beats from ANH.
I'm not sold on Kylo Ren, he is not threatening and the fact that he uses a mask with a voice modulator to become a cheap Darth Vader imitation trying to cosplay just make it hard to take him seriously (I know, I know he idolizes Vader but to me it just doesn't work), the tantrums he threw were funny but not in a good way. Just seems like he is just a spoiled brat that wanted to act and look cool but failed at both.
Still there's stuff I like. BB8 was adorable, I like Rey and Finn. Just hoping Finn doesn't become a jedi, the dude is awesome as he is, him becoming a jedi would ruin his character IMO.
overall I give it a 7/10. ANH and ESB still unbeaten. Definitely better than any of the prequels though. I'm hoping we get a proper villain in Episode 8, a no nonsense guy, basically someone on the same level as Darth Vader in the OT.
Did you literally miss it when the camera panned down and showed his blood on the snow?
Fair enough, I can't debate the quality of Star Wars scores. I'm ignorant in that area.
I took that as them strafing and the force guiding shots away from the heroes. The force is basically a light hand of fate after all. The only difference is some are force sensitive and can weild it to their desire.
WadiumArcadium
Member
I think I prefer the soundtrack to Clones' at least. Across the Stars and Jango's Escape are the only standouts I can remember.
Trigonometrize.
Member
So we have the PT and the OT. What is this new trilogy gonna be? NT for new? Will sound silly when we inevitably get Episode X.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
They borrowed story beats because they wanted to get back to basics. They had to erase the prequels from people's minds and remind them what Star Wars is and was, before they move on to the new generation (and hopefully more original direction).
That was the point of Kylo. They were never going to live up to Darth Vader by doing (what you didn't like in the first place) retreading a character from the original trilogy. He had to be his own person and being the son of Leia and Han, you almost want to know what went wrong in his life. The fact that he had to follow in the footsteps of his great family who brought order to the galaxy and balance to the force, it's no wonder he turned out the way he did. Especially since being a great man and a great jedi aren't easy things to accomplish during peace.
His growth will be more interesting since they've already had 2 sith lords that came off as badasses from the beginning. You can't clone that but you can at least have that be the goal for someone looking to join the dark side.
It will be fun seeing all the pain and misery they bring to try and get to that point.
EDIT: He knows he isn't intimidating on his own which is why he wears the mask.
People say he looks more like his mother
Grover Cleveland
Member
Sequel Trilogy is what I've heard most often.
Why are people so defensive. Most of the criticism of the final fight doesn't consist on bashing Ren for not being OP, or for saying Rey shouldn't have put up a fight. The problem is that she did after closing her eyes and taking breath, all while the villain stood still in a compromised position, and waited the whole, what, 30 seconds? For her to open her eyes and become OP herself.
I didn't think Kylo's mask is as much a wannabe darth Vader as a symbol that he is no longer Ben Solo. Being the son of Han Solo and The Princess would have made him recognizable and famous. To be Kylo Ren he would want to wear a mask or change his face especially in the beginning.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Right now people are calling it Sequel Trilogy, but with the spinoffs (which are of course being called The Spinoffs) I think what's gonna happen is a lot of people will just refer to whatever's not currently playing as...
"Star Wars."
Not that the delineation between trilogies is ever going to go away, but think of it like this: People know that the Marvel movies work in "phases," but only a few fans regularly refer to stuff by what "Phase" they came in. They're just Marvel movies.
I think in a couple years people will just regard old Star Wars movies as that: Old Star Wars movies.
It might also help if Lucasfilm stops telling the Skywalker story as pre-planned trilogies. No real reason to keep with that, especially since they plan on making Star Wars movies yearly.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
It's probably both. He idolized him enough to want to join the dark side.
But I don't personally think of him as a wannabe DV even though he desperately wants to be.
Kylo's character is awesome and he is his own person.
I like him because he is a different.
Wounds and all.
I think he genuinely wanted her to join him which is why he waited for her to respond to his offer. There's obviously some connection between both, maybe siblings, family members or just one of the kids that Luke was training to be jedis.
The Librarian
Banned
I prefer to call it the Rey Trilogy.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The guy writing and directing Episode 8 isn't Rian Disney.
Lucasfilm is making the movies. Kathleen Kennedy runs Lucasfilm. The level at which you're ascribing creative oversight to Disney isn't how Lucasfilm actually makes their movies.
It's not like Disney was in charge when Lucas put a nascent love triangle in Star Wars and elaborated on it in Empire (remember, Luke & Leia weren't related until after that film was already finished).
The Librarian
Banned
Um...I don't know if it's just me, but if you look closely, what I noticed is that the movie slows down at that point, and we get a bit of Spielberg-time-expanding editing.
So while it may be longer for us (but certainly not thirty seconds), it was far shorter for the characters.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
I think it will remain sequel trilogy until the 4th, and them it will become simply numerical labeling. "First trilogy, second, third, fourth, etc" ehile the standalone films are simply that, unless specified as their title.
excelsiorlef
Member
Go watch the PT if you want ridiculous overpowered characters doing nothing but being OP for the sake of being OP
Disney has basically nothing to do with the creative decisions of these movies.
The chronicles of Finn and his amazing technicolor buddies.
Meus Renaissance
Member
This isn't really a good rebuttal.
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