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[Bobby Roberts]

I was responding to these comments...

I know what you were responding to, which is why I posted what I did. My comments are no less relevant after your recapping the posts that led to me posting them.

The clone wars is on millions of TVs,

The Clone Wars got okay ratings. Not great. It did pretty well on DVD and Blu-Ray. But not great. Certainly not great enough to begin to try and compare it on a viewership level to the theatrically released entries in one of the single most popular film series in the history of film. Not only is it not an unfair suggestion that "The Clone Wars" doesn't occupy the same level of importance and impact as the film series, I'd argue that unless you were already a pretty decently-sized Star Wars fan, and thus placing yourself in a smaller subset of the larger audience base, it wouldn't even occur to you to question it.

Which is why context is important here, especially in when it comes to this specific conversation.

 

[Dead]

Irrelevant to my position. FWIW, I've enjoyed some of the officially licensed fan-fiction over the years.

lol what

Lucas personally oversaw pretty much the entirety of The Clone Wars and was involved in setting up the stories for nearly the whole show as well.

It's as '"officially" Star Wars as any OT and PT film.

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

The clone wars is on millions of TVs, it's probably even more easily available than the movies especially if you are a kid.

They sell tons of clone wars merchandise.

They have books and video games with these characters.

It's an indisputable fact that there is going to be an entire generation of girls who grew up watching Ashoka on Clone Wars/Rebels and will see her as a positive role model.

So how the fuck is it not on the same level as the movies? Especially when it comes to the specific issue of female representation.

I agree with you there. Also she's not the only female on the show. There's a great amount of female characters on that show.

 

[Brakke]

Irrelevant to my position. FWIW, I've enjoyed some of the officially licensed fan-fiction over the years.

What are you even doing now. TFA is just officially-licensed fan fiction. Your whole "the expanded universe is just #products for marks" angle is dumb af because so too are the movies just #products for marks.

 

[Nostremitus]

Because when I say Star Wras has a bad history with women posting a picture of one great character from a TV show doesn't disprove my point.

To but it in better context, the pilot of TNG (And I can compare the two because Star Trek is for TV what Star Wars is for movies) has better representation of women that all 6 of of the pre TFA movies fucking combined.

Star Wars up until TFA literally had two women! Two! in 6 movies, never at the same time, and one of them was fucking Padme.

So when I talk about Star Wars' track record with women, saying yeah but Ahsoka doesn't mean shit to me, because even if we include her that now makes 3 characters with one o them still being fucking Padme.

And if we include Ashoka congrats you've now matched the pilot episode of TMG only not really because one of them is Padme

See, this was an appropriate response that detailed your thought process and reasoning instead of just disregarding what someone else was saying in a demeaning way.

I think the person who posted about Ashoka originally was just making the point that TFA wasn't when Lucasfilm finally turned that page. I could be wrong, though.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Because when I say Star Wars has a bad history with women posting a picture of one great character from a TV show doesn't disprove my point.

To but it in better context, the pilot of TNG (And I can compare the two because Star Trek is for TV what Star Wars is for movies) has better representation of women than all 6 of of the pre TFA movies fucking combined.

Star Wars up until TFA literally had two women! Two! in 6 movies, never at the same time, and one of them was fucking Padme.

So when I talk about Star Wars' track record with women, saying yeah but Ahsoka doesn't mean shit to me, because even if we include her that now makes 3 characters with one of them still being fucking Padme.

And if we include Ashoka congrats you've now matched the pilot episode of TMG only not really because one of them is Padme

But I mean, if you're going to include Ashoka, then you also should be including Asajj Ventress, or Hera and Sabine.

 

[sphagnum]

Guys, the issue isn't whether TCW is canon or not or whether it's on level with the rest of the canon or not, it's with what makes a billion dollars in a few days and what doesn't. One of those things is more prominent and made more of a connection with the public than the other, even if the other was popular as it is. And the most popular thing will be what drives the franchise.

TCW was pointing the way but TFA isn't more gender balanced because of TCW. But you can bet that other things will be more gender balanced because of TFA.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Guys, the issue isn't whether TCW is canon or not or whether it's on level with the rest of the canon or not, it's with what makes a billion dollars in a few days and what doesn't. One of those things is more prominent and made more ofa connection with the public than the other, even if the other was popular as it is. And the most popular thing will be what drives the franchise.

TCW was pointing the way but TFA isn't more gender balanced because of TCW. But you can bet that other things will be more gender balanced because of TFA.

This is a really good way to put it.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

The Clone Wars got okay ratings. Not great. Not great enough to begin to try and compare it on a viewership level to the theatrically released entries in one of the single most popular film series in the history of film.

My point remains. A generation of kids watched it. It's also on netflix. Ashoka was also on rebels. I don't think it's a stretch to say that 20 years from now there will be a large group of adults who are nostalgic for it.

I'm not arguing that Star Wars hasn't been historically shitty with Woman, just that you can dismiss a TV show for being a TV show.

 

[Count Dookkake]

.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I love this I say Star Wars (clearly talking about the movies) has had an issue with representation of women and the lot of you just start babbling on about a tv show in order to dismiss my point.


The Clone Wars does not undo the fact that the movies from 1977 to 2005, two female characters of note in it and in fact given that we went from Leia to Padme actually managed to get worse in that department.

Fact TFA is the first Star Wars movie to have made any effort to have better representation and also fact it's only actually a marginal improvement nad largely because Rey is the first major female force user/future Jedi in the movie series.

See, this was an appropriate response that detailed your thought process and reasoning instead of just disregarding what someone else was saying in a demeaning way.

I think the person who posted about Ashoka originally was just making the point that TFA wasn't when Lucasfilm finally turned that page. I could be wrong, though.

This is what I've been saying from the beginning.

And the picture was literally in respone to me saying Star Wars has a bad track record with women.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

My point remains. A generation of kids watched it. .

No, a small percentage of a generation watched it.

Again, referring back to how Sphagnum very succinctly summed up the speedbump that's causing the conversation to bottom out: You can't divorce the entire point of the conversation from the size of the potential audience base we're discussing.

You could say "a generation of kids" watched Star Wars and you'd be close.

But with Clone Wars, it's a lot closer to "a group of kids that also belong to a larger generation watched that show"

 

[Veelk]

My point remains. A generation of kids watched it. It's also on netflix. Ashoka was also on rebels. I don't think it's a stretch to say that 20 years from now there will be a large group of adults who are nostalgic for it.

I'm not arguing that Star Wars hasn't been historically shitty with Woman, just that you can dismiss a TV show for being a TV show.

It's not a dismissal, but you in turn can't deny that getting a cartoon female main character is not on the same level as getting representation in the movie itself. It's good that they did it. It just wasn't enough.

 

[excelsiorlef]

To further my point I'd argue Star Trek TOS had better female representation than the PT and could fight the OT for it as well and TOS debuted in 1966.

It really cannot be stated enough just how fucking terrible the representation of women was in the Lucas era movies.


You wanna know why I think this movie exploded more than TPM, LucasFilms actually remembered that there's a whole other half of the world's population that might want to like Star Wars.

It's no coincidence that commercials (except toys because fuck Hasboro) that are cashing in on the Star Wars craze now includes women and young girls. Just look up the battery commercial and he HP commercial both actually target or acknowledge on some level women fans

 

[Veelk]

To further my point I'd argue Star Trek TOS had better female representation than the PT and could fight the OT for it as well and TOS debuted in 1966.

I haven't seen it (or any other ST besides the reboot movies), but wasn't that literally centered around representation of minorities and analysis of social prejudices?

 

[Dead]

The point is that TCW was the face of the franchise for the better part of a decade. Yeah it won't have the recognition of a movie but as already said it showed that Lucas and his studio was becoming more self conscious in regards to diversity and promoting the other gender in the universe so I just don't think we should pretend that JJ Abrams and co rectified the one wrong that Lucas himself in some peoples, eyes never did

And...there is no basis for this guess, but I would not be surprised if the Lucas outlines for the new movies had a major female lead as well.

 

[The Librarian]

To further my point I'd argue Star Trek TOS had better female representation than the PT and could fight the OT for it as well and TOS debuted in 1966.

It really cannot be stated enough just how fucking terrible the representation of women was in the Lucas era movies.

woooooouldn't go that far

 

[Crossing Eden]

Female Jedi breath through their skin.

Dead.gif

Seriously tho this show was ridiculous when it came to the character design of women at the beginning.

Thank god they fixed that in later seasons. Especially Ahsoka.

 

[DrForester]

To further my point I'd argue Star Trek TOS had better female representation than the PT and could fight the OT for it as well and TOS debuted in 1966.

TOS had an episode all about how emotional women are and why they couldn't be Captains because of it.

And then Voyager went and did a whole series about it.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The point is that TCW was the face of the franchise for the better part of a decade.

Nah, the films were still "the face of the franchise."

The Clone Wars was never going to replace (or intended to replace), only supplement.

It's great supplement, for the most part.

 

[Nostremitus]

This is what I've been saying from the beginning.

And the picture was literally in respone to me saying Star Wars has a bad track record with women.

I guess I misinterpreted that poster's intent, then. I thought they were referencing that fact that the shift in how Lucasfilm represents women started in the cartoon as opposed to TFA. I didn't take it to mean that it negated everything that happened previously.

Also, Lucasfilm has been headed by women for over 20 years. I guess it just goes to show the type of control George had over the properties that it took this long for the change to finally happen. It's probably a good thing he's gone.

 

[excelsiorlef]

woooooouldn't go that far

I would Uhura was a better character than Padme and only marginally less than Leia.

And then after that for better or worse Rand and Chapel had names and identities.

TOS had an episode all about how emotional women are and why they couldn't be Captains because of it.

And then Voyager went and did a whole series about it.

Padme died from a broken heart.... your turn.

And Janeway was a fantastic character.

 

[injurai]

Dead.gif

Seriously tho this show was ridiculous when it came to the character design of women at the beginning.

Thank god they fixed that in later seasons. Especially Ahsoka.

the first one is from Ep III

but wtf in the second on, that's just shitty either way you frame it

 

[excelsiorlef]

When I bring up Star Trek TOS it isn't to showcase how good TOS was but how bad Star Wars was. Especially the PT which has no excuse being 1999-2005

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

I would Uhura was a better character than Padme and only marginally less than Leia.

And then after that for better or worse Rand and Chapel had names and identities.



Padme died from a broken heart.... your turn.

And Janeway was a fantastic character.

Why are you comparing the Star Trek TV show to the Star Wars movies lol? It makes no sense based on the logic we've already established.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Why are you comparing the Star Trek TV show to the Star Wars movies lol? It makes no sense based on the logic we've already established.

Star Wars is predominantly a movie franchise

Star Trek is predominantly a TV franchise

Comparing the most important mediums of each franchise.

 

[sphagnum]

Dead.gif

Seriously tho this show was ridiculous when it came to the character design of women at the beginning.

Thank god they fixed that in later seasons. Especially Ahsoka.

Aayla is definitely the most egregious and a constant reminder that George is a horny old dude, since she only really exists because he thought she was hot in the comics and shoved her into the background of AotC. And then there's Padme's fireside dress...

They've definitely toned it down for Rebels. I wonder how much of that is the team themselves not wanting to sexualize Hera and Sabine and how much of it is Disney XD restrictions.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Star Wars is getting better at representation.

Amazing what happens when the head of the company is a woman, and a lot of the creative executives are women, and the members of the story group are majority women...

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Star Wars is predominantly a movie franchise

Star Trek is predominantly a TV franchise

Comparing the most important mediums of each franchise.

It still doesn't matter. Your own post from a few pages ago:

That the only place you could find a decent number of women characters is in a TV show that had 121 episodes (the equivalent of 25-50 movies) doesn't make Star Wars look good in that department.

Comparing 6 movies to 79 episodes of Star Trek means Star Trek SHOULD have more female characters.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It still doesn't matter.

Let's try and break this down if we can:

Do you agree that Star Wars wasn't very good at female representation in any of its movies?

Do you agree that Star Wars, as a giant multimedia entity, only just recently started to get a little better at it?

Do you agree that The Force Awakens provides a much better opportunity for lasting changes in representation than any of the films have provided previously?

If the answer to all three is yes, then there's really no reason to argue the point.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It still doesn't matter. Your own post from a few pages ago:



Comparing 6 movies to 79 episodes of Star Trek means Star Trek SHOULD have more female characters.

I compared it to one episode....

My comparison was to show how fucking bad Star Wars was with women in the movies, not to exalt Star Trek as that much better.

But Star Trek had 3 women with characters on screen at the same time, something that didn't happen in Star Wars until 2015 and even then only really two as the third was Billy Lourd in the background.

For Star Wars wasn't even possible until TFA. Fuck you couldn't even do two because there was only one at any given time.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Let's try and break this down if we can:

Do you agree that Star Wars wasn't very good at female representation in any of its movies?

Do you agree that Star Wars, as a giant multimedia entity, only just recently started to get a little better at it?

Do you agree that The Force Awakens provides a much better opportunity for lasting changes in representation than any of the films have provided previously?

If the answer to all three is yes, then there's really no reason to argue the point.

Yeah I know, I agree with you guys.

Maybe it's just Tuesday night and I'm bored on neogaf .

 

[Crossing Eden]

the first one is from Ep III

but wtf in the second on, that's just shitty either way you frame it

You're right she is. Ventress tho, very out of place redesign, she was noticeably way more muscular in the 2D cartoon.

but then they went with flirty and much thinner.

They fixed it overtime but we never got that physique back.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yeah I know, I agree with you guys.

Maybe it's just Tuesday night and I'm bored on neogaf .

Then stop wasting my fucking time, playing some bullshit devil's advocate crap.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Then stop wasting my fucking time, playing some bullshit devil's advocate crap.

Jesus dude you take your star wars debating seriously.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Jesus dude you take your star wars debating seriously.

No I was taking a discussion about female representation in popular media seriously, because it is important.

 

[Sou Da]

TOS had an episode all about how emotional women are and why they couldn't be Captains because of it.

And then Voyager went and did a whole series about it.

Voyager was more damaging to female captains than that episode was.

 

[SirMossyBloke]

So I guess this isn't the star wars spoiler thread after all.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

So I guess this isn't the star wars spoiler thread after all.

Ask me a Star Wars spoiler question.

 

[squall23]

Saw the movie and I really have one question. Is Finn going to be the perennial jobber of the trilogy? Because that's the feeling I got and it kind of sucks.

 

[Brakke]

You wanna know why I think this movie exploded more than TPM, LucasFilms actually remembered that there's a whole other half of the world's population that might want to like Star Wars.

Is this even true that TFA is "explosively" more successful than TPM?

Intuitively, I think you're right that this one is doing better than TPM, but how would you propose measuring that? Box office will be real messy, between inflation and a generally super different market today than 16 years ago.

 

[SirMossyBloke]

Ask me a Star Wars spoiler question.

Ok, so I've only just seen it and haven't been keeping up, but is Rey related to Luke then at all?

 

[injurai]

Saw the movie and I really have one question. Is Finn going to be the perennial jobber of the trilogy? Because that's the feeling I got and it kind of sucks.

What caused this spike in the term "jobber" and what is the exact emphasis that the word carries... I get it's related to job or putting in time or something.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Saw the movie and I really have one question. Is Finn going to be the perennial jobber of the trilogy? Because that's the feeling I got and it kind of sucks.

That's a bad feeling to get for a couple reasons

1) Star Wars isn't professional wrestling
2) Finn gets his fair share of victories, both big and small.

A better answer to the question: Considering how often Luke fucked up in Star Wars, would you describe him as "the perennial jobber of the trilogy?"

Or even further - would you describe Han Solo as a "perennial jobber?"

Because if there's a character that is predisposed to fucking up a situation with his actions, and misjudging a situation before entering it, it's Han Solo. To the point where Leia flat out calls it out in TFA proper.

Is this even true that TFA is "explosively" more successful than TPM?

Box office will be real messy, between inflation and a generally super different market today than 16 years ago.

Yeah, it's true. This is only the third week of release, remember. Even if adjusting for inflation as far back as 99 was somewhat reliable (and it absolutely isn't), Phantom Menace is still behind, and by a considerable amount.

Ok, so I've only just seen it and haven't been keeping up, but is Rey related to Luke then at all?

It seems that way, but nobody actually knows for certain just yet.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

What caused this spike in the term "jobber" and what is the exact emphasis that the word carries... I get it's related to job or putting in time or something.

It's a pro wrestling term for a wrestler who loses a lot. "Doing the job" is another word for losing in wrestling.

 

[-griffy-]

Hey guys I'm on a work trip in Brooklyn and missed the last 24 hours of the thread and would like to discuss how much of a boss Chewie was after Han was killed, immediately nailing Kylo with a bow shot, fucking wrecking multiple troopers and then blowing the place up. Even waiting to be DD for Rey and Finn to make sure they got home after their crazy night.

 

[Kitschkraft]

Question, is there any valid explanation as to why Finn didn't seem to be remotely affected by this controlled upbringing by the First Order? That even took place from youth on, right? It just seemed utterly strange how normal he was and that he got his social skills down just fine. That he was supposed to be under a strict program of indoctrination and what not just isn't represented in his characterization at all.

Before The Awakening delves deeper into his upbringing, but for the most part, Finn's just special in that way. His character has a moral compass, and some understanding of self-determination, that's it.

You might say that the force guides him (In the general way, similar to Luke finding Han etc). Some think he's FS himself but that's just a fan theory at this point.

In regards to his social skills....I mean, they never really state (or even imply really) what the lot of them are like in their "personal" lives. We see the two stormtroopers avoid Kylo. It's played for laughs but it's evidence that, at the very least, they have some level of self-preservation. The mind-tricked trooper gets irritated with Rey before her trick works. The "traitor" trooper is clearly taking things personally with Finn.

They're just obedient soldiers, brought up in an evil culture. Think of them more like nazi youth, and less like zombies or something.

 

[DrForester]

Padme died from a broken heart.... your turn.

Outside of DS9, none of the Trek series had particularly strong main woman character. Even Troi and Crusher on TNG weren't particularly interesting characters.

And Janeway was a fantastic character.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Ok, so I've only just seen it and haven't been keeping up, but is Rey related to Luke then at all?

Unconfirmed. I kinda hope not so that someone other than a member of the Skywalker family will be the key to solving the conflict.

 

[Brakke]

What caused this spike in the term "jobber" and what is the exact emphasis that the word carries... I get it's related to job or putting in time or something.

It's a wrestling term. Essentially, a jobber is a person who loses more so the winner can bolster their record than because it means anything in particular for the jobber himself.

Most of the non-Goku dudes in DBZ are jobbers. They just show up so the bad guy has someone to absolutely destroy, thereby giving the bad guy some credit before he goes on to lose against Goku or whoever is the hero of the given arc.

"Jobbing" is different than just "losing".