Because half the movie is Hayden staring into Amidala's eyes and spouting off terrible dialog in a way that reminds me of the original Resident Evil's voice acting.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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Because half the movie is Hayden staring into Amidala's eyes and spouting off terrible dialog in a way that reminds me of the original Resident Evil's voice acting.
excelsiorlef
Member
No it didn't. It was ANH light too...
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
I'd say a combo of worse dialogue, a weird love story and bad characters. Heck I consider this fan edit a miracle that it somehow made anakin likeable (minus creepy look):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94nVBucKV8U&feature=youtu.be&t=1182
Obliterator
Member
Im not so much bashing the Deathstar scenes as much as I'm just saying not a whole lot happens in that film. Han is on fire in ANH though, EASILY the best part of the movie
LegendofLex
Member
Well, let's be honest, Luke was never going to go back to Jakku to get her. If he was involved in her being left there, it was for a good reason - personally, I'm resting on the theory that she was left there with the intention of letting her choose her path for herself, rather than being forced into Jedi training like Ben was.
Rey is waiting on Jakku for someone to "come back" in the sense of "come back to pick me up where they left me." That's not ultimately what's going to happen for her; she's going to have to make the choice to pursue her family on her own, and that choice is going to lead her to Luke so they can return together to orchestrate a second "return of the Jedi."
"The belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead." The scene is supposed to communicate to Rey that she has nothing to look forward to on Jakku, and it's time to move on. That's true regardless of whether Luke is or is not related to her.
brandonh83
Banned
It's better than TPM. IMO, a lot even. That's the one that has severely degraded for me over the years. AotC still has bad scenes, some insufferable, but I enjoy the story and general motions a hell of a lot more than its predecessor. I mean we're comparing two very problematic movies when it comes to the point, but I absolutely prefer the "gist" of AotC over TPM. All I really like about TPM is the podrace, Anakin leaving Tatooine and some of the final battle.
Basically I can go on about what I like in AotC longer than I can with TPM lol
The Librarian
Banned
Right. Plus, the only reason why we had the "Vader feint" as you suggest was because Star Wars was intended to be a one-off film. Vader was retroactively made Luke's father.
My ranking:
TFA > ESB > ANH > ROTJ
Interfectum
Member
I really disliked that final duel. I thought it was too long, the saber battle was another choreographed mess with very little impact or emotion and the dialogue was atrocious (and is still quoted to the day because of it's awfulness).
I love the idea of Revenge of the Sith. The rise of the empire, the final transition into Darth Vader, etc. I love how dark it was trying to be. But I honestly feel he missed the mark hard.
Oh, it's list time.
The Empire Strike Back
The Force Awakens
A New Hope
Return of the Jedi
~huge chasm~
Revenge of the Sith
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
In prior lists, I had ANH above TFA. But as I've seen it more and had time to really process what it's doing, I have to put TFA above ANH. For many reasons, but the main one is simple: I have a lot more fun watching TFA. It also has what is for me the most thrilling moment in the entire series, in Rey taking up the lightsaber. From a direct character standpoint, I feel more invested in Rey, Finn, Kylo, BB-8 and Poe than I did with the original cast, if we're just looking at what was accomplished in the first film of each trilogy. Which is amazing considering I grew up with those movies.
The Empire Strike Back
The Force Awakens
A New Hope
Return of the Jedi
~huge chasm~
Revenge of the Sith
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
In prior lists, I had ANH above TFA. But as I've seen it more and had time to really process what it's doing, I have to put TFA above ANH. For many reasons, but the main one is simple: I have a lot more fun watching TFA. It also has what is for me the most thrilling moment in the entire series, in Rey taking up the lightsaber. From a direct character standpoint, I feel more invested in Rey, Finn, Kylo, BB-8 and Poe than I did with the original cast, if we're just looking at what was accomplished in the first film of each trilogy. Which is amazing considering I grew up with those movies.
brandonh83
Banned
The only problem I have with Hayden is some of the lines given to him, and there's only really a few I dislike, mostly toward the end. So it's not Hayden specifically, for me anyway. I recognize the bad deliveries in places but he's also fine in many other scenes so I chalk it up to the writing and direction given in those instances though I'm sure some Plinkett disciples could put me in my place.
I waited on that fight for so damn long that I'm more than okay with the length. Anything less would have been disappointing to me. I didn't think it was a choreographed mess either. Agreed about the dialogue.
Obliterator
Member
Yeah ROTS has issues but its highs are amazing.
Opera Scene, Fall of the Jedi, Obi and Padme confronting Anakin, Padme burial scene, are all absolute high points of the franchise for me. It also helps its beautiful to look at, and is filmed legitimate well, unlike the 2 films before it
Opera Scene, Fall of the Jedi, Obi and Padme confronting Anakin, Padme burial scene, are all absolute high points of the franchise for me. It also helps its beautiful to look at, and is filmed legitimate well, unlike the 2 films before it
Interfectum
Member
One thing that Plinkett nails in his Episode 3 review (and I noticed it when I first watched it but couldn't put it into words) was how most of the character dialogue scenes were all filmed in very plain, boring situations (either slowly walking, looking out a window or sitting on a couch). It really felt like Lucas was just rushing through so much shit in Episode 3 just so he could get to the end.
Honestly the trilogy should have started with Episode 2 so Episode 3 could be split into two movies. It was far, far too rushed at the end with the Anakin character doing almost a 180 in seconds.
prag16
Banned
I thought she could be potentially as old as 7-8 Not sure if that helps confirm/deny her parentage though.
As for the Max conversation, it's too vague to draw any concrete conclusions.
We hardcore fans pick apart everything. This is anecdotal, but every armchair casual fan I've talked to thought it was obvious Rey is going to turn out to be Luke's daughter. As I said earlier THAT to me is the biggest reason to think she is NOT his daughter... too obvious to the casual observer.
If not for that, I'd have to mostly agree that there's a strong case for her being Luke's daughter (or at least intimately connected to him somehow).
PeskyToaster
Member
Rewatch it in theaters and it's amazing. After slogging through the prequels, ANH was like a second wind.
Note: I'm no prequel hater. I was born in 1993 and had a blast watching the PT as a kid and even now as an older person but ANH just oozes fun and adventure in ways the PT never hit. I will say watching it in theaters for the first time at the marathon probably raised my opinion of it. It was just so much fun.
Adventure happens. You can't just have everyone teleport between important scenes with no transitional adventure happening inbetween.
brandonh83
Banned
It's weird. I think SOME of AotC looks pretty fantastic especially the Tatooine stuff, like truly amazing shots and atmosphere there, as well as the Coruscant stuff (some) while a lot of it is just... plain. RotS is definitely better visually.
WadiumArcadium
Member
I still love this scene. Padme's Ruminations is a really haunting track. Definitely one of the better scenes in ROTS.
I don't think it needed Palpatine's voiceover though.
I don't think it needed Palpatine's voiceover though.
Obliterator
Member
Yep haunting scene. Another high point of the franchise shot for me.
ROTS gets the love it does from me more for some of its individual shots / scenes than entire package. It just has parts that are really really well done
The set pieces and costumes in AOTC are on fucking point. It's too bad some of the few non-digital sets in the entire film are wasted on Anakin and Padime.
That's the reason I put Empire above it, TFA has some story elements that just don't work, while Empire is watertight in that department.
Personally, I put TFA above ANH for the characters and because I think it's just a more entertaining film overall. But it's close.
The Librarian
Banned
still one of the best star wars posters tho
Not true at all. My GF who has never seen any SW loved the movie from start to finish the very first time (this was only months ago). People often incorrectly critique opinion with the presumption that it's twisted by nostalgia; in some cases, that's true, but it's important to consider that people might just find genuine enjoyment out of their experience. Still my absolute favorite movie of all time.
brandonh83
Banned
Killing kids was too much but his turn DOES make sense. I never had a problem with him declaring himself to Palpatine but there should have been a buffer when it came to that. Like maybe he goes into the council chamber, finds the kids, and walks away as if he didn't see them. But then allows clones or something to go do the dirty work. He may be allowing them to die but it wouldn't be at his hand and there could be more conflict there.
Lots of ways to go about the kid murder that could have still been disturbing without ringing false, but yeah otherwise I was fine with the turn. At the moment it was either Mace who had pissed him off like seven times before, or his wife and child. He even pleaded Mace to detain and put him on trial and when he sought advice Yoda LITERALLY told him to let it happen and not mourn or miss them LOL
Anakin: Master Yoda, I'm having visions of my wife dying in chilbirth and not sure what happens to my baby
Yoda: Shit happens breh
Thinking about it I may have to revise my list
Another point, I feel Kylo Ren is a far more engaging villain than Vader was in ANH.
LegendofLex
Member
I half-expected Luke to utter "I'm your father" right before the credits rolled.
But I agree with you that it seems way too obvious a thing to even bother holding back for the next movie, if it's really the case.
That's why I'm resting on the idea that she's actually Han/Leia's kid, and they (together with Luke) conspired to keep her away from the Skywalker family drama and legacy until she was a fully-formed person so she wouldn't end up like Kylo (whose arc is reminiscent of Vader's), and would instead follow a path more similar to Luke's (which is why her arc resembles Luke's, and probably why the story tries so much to give us the impression she's related to him).
In that way, ultimately everything that makes the audience thinks she's Luke's kid still holds - she's still related to him, she's just his niece instead of his daughter - but the audience also is being misdirected and gets the thrill of not really knowing what they think they know.
Most people dismiss this idea because it appears on the surface that Han and Leia don't react to her as though she's their daughter, but if they know who she is - and it seems just as obvious that they do as it does that she's connected to Luke - then all of these signals apply just as strongly if she's actually their niece anyway. In any case, if they knew about the plan to leave her on Jakku, they'd be inclined not to rope her into the family drama, since that'd go against the plan.
But she bears so many similarities to Han - similarities that almost get put out of mind once the connection is made to Luke - that I can't shake the feeling that they really do have a father-daughter relationship. This + Han symbolically handing down a blaster, and her ending up with the Falcon and Chewie in the end, to boot - she's inheriting more from him than she does from Luke by the end of the film - really pushes me toward thinking we're being led to believe she's Luke's kid but she'll turn out to be Han and Leia's after all.
There's some similarly silly stuff going on in Empire, too, like the audience never getting an explanation for how Han and Leia got anywhere near Bespin without a hyperdrive, and literally every decisive choice Luke makes during the film getting spoonfed to him through Force visions.
Or maybe, just maybe, people are liking Episode 7 a lot more because its ANH parallels are a bit more surface level and the movie is actually executed and structured well despite the similarities, where as the prequels were not?
prag16
Banned
I think there needed to be more between the distraught "What have I done?" ... and pledging himself to Palpatine. Some kind of tense almost-confrontation between Palpatine and Anakin maybe. Maybe Anakin pulls his lightsaber on him, I don't know. I'm not a filmmaker or a story teller. But it was too fast. The transition didn't have enough time to breathe. Even without the youngling slaughter. (Still really liked RotS though, and I put it agove RotJ in my rankings just now.) Good points about Mace and Yoda (in your edit) though. They basically told him to fuck off.
No no no, it's just everyone else has poopy taste but AkimbO_Arcana. That's the ONLY possibility. AkimbO_Arcana is the only person left who knows what cinema was like before superhero movies.
They are the chosen one. They will bring balance to the cinema.
Obliterator
Member
I mean it works in reverse from your situation as well. My wife thinks ROTS is the best SW film and actually enjoyed TPM and AOTC as well. Opinions are each their own.
And I'll admit I was off base with my ANH comment in this thread. I shouldn't have done an opinion = fact post guys sorry about that it was wrong of me
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah, I don't disagree but we kind of got something like it when Anakin drew his saber on Palpatine when he came out. I think at that point he knew he had made his choice, he killed a fellow Jedi and it wasn't Palpatine that MADE him do it.
Thinking about it I may have to revise my list
Another point, I feel Kylo Ren is a far more engaging villain than Vader was in ANH.
This is something I hadn't really thought about until I watched the Stuckman analysis from yesterday. Vader became a great character as the OT progressed, but he really was one-note in ANH. From an apples to apples standpoint, TFA did a better job establishing its villains than ANH did.
As an aside, it also didn't repeat the mistakes of the prequel trilogy, of knocking off bad guys in succession. I was worried they'd knock off Kylo Ren as Lucas did with Darth Maul. (Not knowing Driver was signed for three films at the time.)
From a plotting standpoint, these are nitpicks (and I'd actually disagree they are issues, but setting that aside), as compared to one of the major elements of TFA's 3rd act not really working.
LegendofLex
Member
Honestly, looking at it on paper, it actually feels to me like the dialogue should have moved even faster than it did toward the line that really sells the whole thing.
Leaving the line "I will do whatever you ask" to linger in isolation, particularly right after he expresses remorse at what he's done, broke the logic for me the first time I gave it a repeat viewing. But we can see exactly why he submits to Palpatine despite everything in his following line.
Are you thinking of the R2 thing, or something else? Because I can agree if it's R2. In hindsight that's really the only thing in TFA that I just don't buy as it's presented in the film.
yeah this is my list and I also had ANH ahead of TFA until I saw it a couple more times and marinated on it
Ziltoidia 9
Member
How old are Ren and Rey in TFA?
radios shipping overview
Member
"The new character's name is John Harrison. He definitely isn't Khan."
"My name... is Khan."
I still don't entirely get why people throw so much shade at Return of the Jedi
From a few pages back it was approximately 20 for Rey and 30-31 for Ren. Basically the character's ages are similar to the ages of the actors (Riddley is 23, Driver is 32)
From a few pages back it was approximately 20 for Rey and 30-31 for Ren. Basically the character's ages are similar to the ages of the actors (Riddley is 23, Driver is 32)
It's only saved by the Palpatine/Luke/Vader parts, everything else is pretty forgettable IMO.
God the Ewoks.
It's a muppet movie.
fastford58
Member
I can get behind this. I had ANH basically tied with TFA, but that was my nostalgia goggles making me feel guilty about liking TFA more than ANH. ESB is still GOAT, though.
I recently tried to rewatch the prequels and have found that I have to take them in 20 minute increments. I'm working through ROTS now. I think the Clone Wars animated actually made me hate movie Anakin since he was a great character in the CW series. Ugh.
So my list is:
The Empire Strike Back
The Force Awakens
A New Hope
Return of the Jedi
Clone Wars Animated
Revenge of the Sith
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
CloudyTuba
Member
Oh it's ranking time again?
1. The Empire Strikes Back
Takes the same characters, fleshes them out and brings them to a new level. Significantly improves the cinematic style and the effects. Pretty much the definitive example of what Star Wars feels like.
2. Star Wars
Empire couldnt be as good as it is without the first one doing all the work, setting all that good stuff up and making it exciting. None of this could exist without it in the first place. And it's the only OT movie that works great standalone. I prefer standalone movies.
3. The Force Awakens
Even if it apes IV a bit too much, it creates new characters and conflicts that are legitimately as fun and interesting as the ones we already know. When you find yourself more interested in what Rey is up to than Han, you know they've done something right. And it's got the right style.
4. Return of the Jedi
Awkward and meandering at times, it still manages to progress the characters and find the right direction by the end, providing a satisfying and emotional conclusion.
5. Revenge of the Sith
Improved plot this time around, more exciting developments, great music. Ditches a lot of the stuff we never cared about and gets to the meat and potatoes. However still frequently feels awkward and artificial. Contrived. The actors still can't pull off their terrible dialogue and character motivations just aren't believable.
6. The Phantom Menace
Had a particular look to the cinematography that the two prequels to follow did not retain. Nice looking at times. CGI style was less cartoony looking than later prequels. Liam Neeson was nice. Cool fight at the end. Pretty worthless plot and dialogue, though.
7. Attack of the Clones
From beginning to end it's hovering between bad and cringembarrassing. I can't think of any scenes I might want to ever rewatch. Would not be concerned if every single copy fell into a black hole. Edit: WAIT! Obi wan vs Fett. There's one.
Honorable mention to The Clone Wars cg series that doesn't qualify for the list but manages to be the best Prequel era media ever produced.
1. The Empire Strikes Back
Takes the same characters, fleshes them out and brings them to a new level. Significantly improves the cinematic style and the effects. Pretty much the definitive example of what Star Wars feels like.
2. Star Wars
Empire couldnt be as good as it is without the first one doing all the work, setting all that good stuff up and making it exciting. None of this could exist without it in the first place. And it's the only OT movie that works great standalone. I prefer standalone movies.
3. The Force Awakens
Even if it apes IV a bit too much, it creates new characters and conflicts that are legitimately as fun and interesting as the ones we already know. When you find yourself more interested in what Rey is up to than Han, you know they've done something right. And it's got the right style.
4. Return of the Jedi
Awkward and meandering at times, it still manages to progress the characters and find the right direction by the end, providing a satisfying and emotional conclusion.
5. Revenge of the Sith
Improved plot this time around, more exciting developments, great music. Ditches a lot of the stuff we never cared about and gets to the meat and potatoes. However still frequently feels awkward and artificial. Contrived. The actors still can't pull off their terrible dialogue and character motivations just aren't believable.
6. The Phantom Menace
Had a particular look to the cinematography that the two prequels to follow did not retain. Nice looking at times. CGI style was less cartoony looking than later prequels. Liam Neeson was nice. Cool fight at the end. Pretty worthless plot and dialogue, though.
7. Attack of the Clones
From beginning to end it's hovering between bad and cringembarrassing. I can't think of any scenes I might want to ever rewatch. Would not be concerned if every single copy fell into a black hole. Edit: WAIT! Obi wan vs Fett. There's one.
Honorable mention to The Clone Wars cg series that doesn't qualify for the list but manages to be the best Prequel era media ever produced.
prag16
Banned
How about if Palpatine had added right then, "And you must murder all jedi younglings in cold blood, and then kill your mentor and lifelong friend Obi Wan. That is the only way to save Padme."
Of course he would never have said that, but that's was the implication It made sense to you that Anakin would just be totally cool with that? Especially when Palpatine straight up says right after that basically, "Hah, just kidding, I don't know how to save Padme, but we'll work on figuring that out... later... but first, go kill all the younglings and Obi Wan, then we'll talk."
WadiumArcadium
Member
Rey's nineteen according to the visual dictionary. Kylo's between 29 and 30 according to Pablo Hidalgo, one of the Lucasfilm Story Group.
Honestly, considering the awful bits of dialog we got throughout the PT, I'm surprised he didn't say that.
I straight up think Force Awakens did A New Hope better than A New Hope.
The entire Tatooine segment has Boss-mode Luke Skywalker. Best space battle in the franchise. Everything that involves Palpatine is pretty much the best stuff in the entire trilogy. Also Ewoks make more sense from a story perspective than Wookies.
The entire Tatooine segment has Boss-mode Luke Skywalker. Best space battle in the franchise. Everything that involves Palpatine is pretty much the best stuff in the entire trilogy. Also Ewoks make more sense from a story perspective than Wookies.
For me it goes like this in my list:
God Tier:
RoTJ (hell, this is my favorite movie ever even, I fucking love it)
ANH
TESB
TFA
Enjoyable:
RoTS (yes, I know it has a lot of issues but it's still far more competent as a movie, and the music is JW at his best, seriously, also love Ewan's performance!)
Eh:
TPM (still can enjoy it...every once in a while)
Fuck this:
AoTC
Seriously, what a wretched movie.
God Tier:
RoTJ (hell, this is my favorite movie ever even, I fucking love it)
ANH
TESB
TFA
Enjoyable:
RoTS (yes, I know it has a lot of issues but it's still far more competent as a movie, and the music is JW at his best, seriously, also love Ewan's performance!)
Eh:
TPM (still can enjoy it...every once in a while)
Fuck this:
AoTC
Seriously, what a wretched movie.
Luke on Tatooine is indeed dope, but almost everything else about it is bad. Han is terrible up until he gets to the Forest Moon but once he's there he has to share screentime with awful little creatures.
LegendofLex
Member
Um...
He basically does say this, couching it in rhetoric about how the Jedi are treacherous and aren't aligned with Anakin's interests or those of the galaxy, playing off Anakin's disillusionment with the Council at the same time.
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