I wish they played up those other aspects better. In Attack of the Clones, once he slaughters the sand people, he clearly shows Vader-esque traits and wants to be more powerful. In ROTS he demonstrates wanting to have a position of power and influence and gets angry when denied it (being on the Jedi council and being granted the rank of Master). But ultimately his turn hinges far too much on Padme and that's ultimately his driving force behind turning from the opera scene onward.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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I wish they played up those other aspects better. In Attack of the Clones, once he slaughters the sand people, he clearly shows Vader-esque traits and wants to be more powerful. In ROTS he demonstrates wanting to have a position of power and influence and gets angry when denied it (being on the Jedi council and being granted the rank of Master). But ultimately his turn hinges far too much on Padme and that's ultimately his driving force behind turning from the opera scene onward.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
While I don't feel this way with TFA which I enjoyed the hell out of, this is Disney pretty much. They make fun 6-7.5 movies that you can watch just once. They're the masters of making generic movies that you can enjoy once in theaters. TFA and CA:WS are the only exceptions that made me give a shit to see them more than once.
Well I saw Avengers twice and wow did that movie suck the second time around
I think the point is that if his only flaw was his deep care for those close to him he wouldn't have be swayed by Palpatine's words.
LegendofLex
Member
Well, it did wind up being a real premonition that did come true.
It's actually less stupid than Luke suddenly going ape-shit on Vader just because Vader found out he had a sister and teased him about turning her to the dark side, before he'd ever actually identified her.
I've said this before, but Anakin has an intense messiah complex that was evident as far back as TPM, where he vows that he'll become a Jedi and come back to free his mother. It becomes even worse once he fails to save her in AOTC, at which point he resolves to become so strong that he'll never fail to save anyone ever again.
Being treated like the chosen one probably agitates this terribly.
The novelization gives the impression that he only cared about becoming a master because it would entitle him to certain secrets that he was hoping to use to find a way to save Padme.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Disney didn't make the film though. It's the same with Marvel. They have a hands-off approach with both Lucasfilm and Marvel Studios. JJ and Kasdan wrote the script for the film they wanted to make.
TheDinoman
Member
To be honest, Ewoks aside, ROTJ has a few other problems that hold it back.
One of the biggest glaring examples is Han Solo. A lot of the character and charisma he had in the previous films was seemingly flung out the window here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EN4tcT1PRU
Harrison Ford looks and sounds like such a dope in this clip lol.
One of the biggest glaring examples is Han Solo. A lot of the character and charisma he had in the previous films was seemingly flung out the window here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EN4tcT1PRU
Harrison Ford looks and sounds like such a dope in this clip lol.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Lando is the real Han in ROTJ.
that part I agree until he got his ass whoopped at the end by a girl who just discovered the force, that pretty much undid all his badassness
Obliterator
Member
Yeah I actually think the prequels would have worked MUCH better if Episode 1 had adult Anakin right off the bat. You have happy go lucky kid Anakin for 1 of the movies so you really only get 2 movies to show his fall which makes it really rushed. If they started the path / foreshadowing from the very beginning I think it would have worked much better
Because the Rebels used a small strike team of attack ships to find a weakness in the Empire's battleship, and get pretty smashed up in the process (only a few ships make it out).
Vs. teddy bears with rocks and logs defeating the Empire in a ground fight.
I really don't see how these are anywhere near comparable.
The more I think about it, the more I want to rank ANH over ESB. I think I took a second look at ESB after seeing the internet praise. But I really think ANH has a number of advantages over it. The cinematography, filming is just much better done, even if Irvin Kershner improved the character direction.
Trigonometrize.
Member
The prequels and the OT handled the concept of turning to the dark side very differently fundamentally. The only description we're given of Vader is that he was "seduced." Yoda tells Luke that once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. The Emperor was trying to get the anger going through Luke. It's all very vague.
In the prequels they try and make it very clear: Anakin turns to the dark side to become powerful and knowledgeable enough to save Padme. The problem with making it such a specific end goal is that it fucks with selling us on the idea that Anakin is evil. Revenge of the Sith failed in that I don't even buy that Darth fucking Vader is evil by the time the movie is over, only that he retardedly became an obvious cog in a sith lord's takeover of the galaxy to do something as neutral as save his wife.
In the prequels they try and make it very clear: Anakin turns to the dark side to become powerful and knowledgeable enough to save Padme. The problem with making it such a specific end goal is that it fucks with selling us on the idea that Anakin is evil. Revenge of the Sith failed in that I don't even buy that Darth fucking Vader is evil by the time the movie is over, only that he retardedly became an obvious cog in a sith lord's takeover of the galaxy to do something as neutral as save his wife.
LegendofLex
Member
Others have mentioned how dark side users tend to see themselves as the center of the Force, while light side users see the Force as the center of themselves.
The movies have given us a pretty clear pattern of the latter being > the former.
Hell, TFA even signals this to us by having Kylo become severely emotionally and physically wounded prior to the fight, and continue smacking himself to stave off the pain, basically telling us through visuals that Kylo's tapping into the Force through his own pain and emotions. Rey's tapping into it by letting it take over.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I can't believe people actually argue this.
He got hit by a bowcaster that exploded everyone else it hit, was nursing his wound, had just killed his father and was emotionally rekt, and wasn't trying to kill Rey.
Fata1moose
Banned
I was re-watching Jedi the other day and I noticed Luke forgets he has the force when convenient, like when he's fighting the Rancor and hits the door button with a rock instead of using the force.
Obliterator
Member
While all that is true I do agree having Rey "win" the fight was a bad call. I didn't at first but after later reflection having her 100% untrained hanging with him and then winning really undersells the "fear" factor hugely.
Kylo needs to do some major destruction in the next film aka Vader in Empire
LegendofLex
Member
I dunno, it's nice to finally have a villain who needs to undergo some character growth rather than static villains who are simply evil and don't keep up with the protagonists' own growth.
Jest Chillin
Member
It's being treated like the chosen one that gives him the Messiah complex and makes him so easily manipulated.
All he hears is how strong he is, what an awesome job he's doing and that he's destined to save everything... but not now and we can't tell you why not now, you just have to trust us when we say you're not ready even though you're doing all these awesome and powerful things already.
Then you combine that with his inability to use his power to save the ones he loves and that drives him to want more power. The PT does portray this but there's so many other things happening throughout that a lot of people miss it.
Gunna have to directly disagree on the music. Lots of memorable tracks; the score is more subtle but that doesn't mean it's unmemorable by any stretch of the imagination. When March of the Resistance plays during the X-Wing attack.. that's one of the most memorable moments in SW, for me. Pure adventure.
I thought Anakin was clearly evil by the third film. He slaughtered a whole village "like animals" and he put emphasis on the fact that this included women and children. He also managed to kill every padawan without hesitation. These aren't normal actions done by someone who is morally gray or confused.
I think his turn would have been better if Padme wasn't the reason for him turning what so ever. Like, after he kills the sand people in AOTC, have Anakin realize he really fucking likes being that powerful but has to hide that fact in fear of being exposed by his fellow Jedi. Palpatine eventually latches onto this and slowly plants the idea in Anakin's head that Anakin would be better off and more powerful if he left the Jedi and stayed by Palpatine's side as Palpatine forms his new Empire.
Then you have Anakin actually go through with this, side with Palpatine, and have Anakin betray and fight off Jedi as they try to dethrone Palpatine and save the Republic. Have Padme actually serve as the one last bit of light left in Anakin and have Anakin reject her because he think's she'll make him feel weak. After that have Padme fake her death or something and have her run off to give birth to Luke and Leia before dying (thus kind of preserving the continuity a little better)
I'd like an explanation of how Kylo "winning" the fight would work out. As it stands now, the villain of our trilogy has extreme, personal motivation to not only want to get stronger, but also to defeat both of our hero characters. There's the internal conflict of Kylo being beaten by a girl who seems to have a stronger grasp of the Force than he does, and how that feeds into his existing insecurities of not living up to Vader, and the external conflict of wanting to get revenge on Rey and Finn, and the Resistance at large. Dude has supreme motivation to wreck everyone now.
The Librarian
Banned
The movie was already breaking down audience's first impression of him LONG before the duel with Rey.
Kylo Ren was revealed to not be "a badass" before he lost to Rey.
UnforgivenTwin
Member
I agree I thought Ren was great. Something about the way he presented himself was just threatening. That can also be attributed to Adam Drivers performance. Can't wait to see him evolve throughout this trilogy.
Trigonometrize.
Member
The village I'll give you, but the slaughtering of the jedi was a direct order from Palpatine right after he tells him he'll do anything to save Padme. He just became a cog in the sith lord's plan because he's desperate, at least in ROTS. They then have him say "from my point of view the jedi are evil," later, but why? Why would he think that? They have him going into the dark side from two separate angles and I think the actually idea of him being evil getting the focus would make it more convincing. The whole power to save Padme shit distracts from it constantly.
SolicitorPirate
Member
Eh, I like the idea of Anakin's fall caused by the strong attachments he forms with people, seemingly particularly women (his mum, Padme, Ahsoka Tano).
There's just something poetic about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. For what its worth, I've heard the Clone Wars cartoon supports this interpretation, but I really haven't watched enough of the show to know.
Obliterator
Member
I'll be cool with it if Kylo goes big in the next film. If he takes back to back L's it will be hard to take him seriously
They weren't alone and fought alongside rebels. Plus they got their ass kicked plenty once the Empire realized they weren't just teddy bears. It's comparable in that the Empire underestimated their opponent in both scenarios, just in very different ways. Again, it's not like they single handedly defeated the Empire, but I think it makes sense that they have the capability of defending themselves on their native planet.
The biggest problem is that the prequels and especially ROTS show Anakin being tricked into being evil rather than genuinely beliving in what he is doing. At the end of the movie he mentions overthrowing Palpatine and leading his new Empire but those ideas were never hinted at before then and the actual turn is just cartoonish. He drops to his knees with a Clockwork Orange expression and pledges allegiance to some fat guy in a Halloween mask despite the ghoulish Palpatine telling him he can't actually save people from death.
Anakin should have turned because he genuinely believed in the Empire, because he believed that the Empire offered peace and justice to every planet in the galaxy, unlike the Republic which left planets like Tatooine at the mercy of gangsters and slavers. Anakin should have resented the Republic from day one and slowly grown to resent the Jedi too, rather than turning because of Palpatine's bullshit lies. It's just not believable that someone who felt so guilty about killing the Tusken raiders and chopping Dooku's head off, could murder a roomful of children in cold blood. The turn is the most important part of the prequels and it was not done properly. Vader the cold-blooded murderer should have been strictly post-lava incident, after he had lost everything. From an audience perspective, we should want Anakin to turn back before Obi-Wan is forced to kill him, but that never happens, the character is shown to be a complete dick from the first scene in AOTC.
Aye. He got "whooped" in the same scene he took his helmet off. His once formidable looking mind control on Poe (and earlier, Rey) fails and then backfires, big time.
As a concept, I can see them falling to guerrilla warfare working. As executed in the film, it just made the Empire look totally incompetent, IMO.
LegendofLex
Member
I don't think so. His opinion of what it means to be a Jedi (as well as what his intentions would be if he were a Jedi) crops up before he's ever offered the chance to become one:
Um?
And what a great scene it was. Added lots of depth to Kylo's character.
Obliterator
Member
Him "losing" isn't the end of the world. Its if it happens again in the next film.
He needs his Vader in Empire moment.
He needs his Vader in Empire moment.
Dude was supremely shook after that. Noticed on my 3rd viewing that after that mind reading scene, when he's in Snoke's chamber they really reinforce this with the camera work. Whereas the earlier meeting with Snoke is all still shots, this time its frenetic and handheld, camera whipping from Snoke's image down to Kylo erratically. Then Hux walks in to embarrass him in front of Snoke, talking about how Kylo left the battle without the droid because he thought they didn't need it since he could pull the info out of Rey, which failed. Kicking him when he's down.
This is a bizarre criticism. He had a ton of character/charisma and hilarious moments in ROTJ and was great in this scene..
A brief exchange in a movie released 3 years earlier, is not enough for his turn in ROTS to work. We needed so much more, Lucas thinks he can just throw a line in there and leave it at that. He needed to show, not tell. Its the same in ROTS when he mentions overthrowing Palpatine. If that is what he is planning then why obey his orders so blindly? He already told you he can't save Padme so why didn't he kill him there and then? If Anakin had a brain he would have executed Palpatine on the spot as soon as he revealed his Plagueis story was bullshit.
Obliterator
Member
Btw how damn fun is it that Star Wars is revitalized like this and we can have all this debate and discussion? So awesome
Trigonometrize.
Member
Things unraveled more and more for Kylo all because of Rey, either indirectly or not. That's why the lightsaber fight feels so great: Kylo's mad, evil, and scared of Rey all in one climatic fight. I'm excited to see Kylo Strikes Back because that better be what we're getting, ha
i love it
I still marvel at how good that scene is. It's a battle of wills, conveyed almost entirely wordlessly. The direction, superbly internalized acting, music and the deep rumbling sounds used to convey the Force make it work so well.
As a thought exercise, imagine Lucas trying to do a similar scene in one of the Prequels.
Yeah, he's totally shaken in front of daddy. Hux twisting the knife was hilarious. And it actually makes the fit Kylo throws when he finds she's escaped understandable. First he screws up by letting BB-8 go, taking Rey instead. They she punks him when he tries to read her for the map. Then Hux rubs it in, in front of the leader he's working so hard to impress. (It's already established that he's worried about Snoke detecting his "pull to the light".)
Then on top of it all Snoke wants him to bring Rey, and she's gone. It's a funny scene, but I actually empathize with Kylo in that moment; everything he's been working toward is falling apart. It also contextualizes his decision to kill Han, later: Snoke put it to him as his greatest test, after all the failures that came before.
It's not a single line, it's a through-line for all the movies.
Honestly, of all the things to complain about in the PT, Anakin's reasoning for turning is the least of them. Once you couple in pure incompetence of the Jedi Council with the malevolent intelligence of Palpatine and the anger, hate, and messiah complex of Anakin... it all makes sense.
An amazing mirror to the scene where Tarkin and Vader are talking about the escaping Falcon in ANH.
Yeah I'm so happy that a whole new generation can have.. 'our' experience of Star Wars. Sorry it had to be you, young millennials.
Oh, I noticed. And it's hilarious each time. I love it.
McDiarmid is one of the best parts of Revenge of the Sith. Overall, the prequels just aren't good films. The failure of Revenge of the Sith isn't even the dialogue, as bad as it can be in some parts (though almost on par with some of the poor dialogue in the OT), it's the fact that the previous movies failed to make Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship genuine, and heartfelt. We should have literally been in tears when they faced off and ignited their lightsabers against one another. When Obi-Wan yells, "You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you!" We should have been reaching for the tissues to wipe all that condensed mist in our eyes.
Unfortunately, in Episode 1, we got:
A 9 year old Anakin, and Obi-Wan, the Oldest Padawan in the Republic (I guess he was held back a few dozen grades?), and they share only a smidgen of screen time together.
In Episode 2, we got: Petulant, backtalking, and disobedient Anakin to Obi-Wan's exasperated father figure, and they were separated for the bulk of the movie, barely spending any bonding time together.
And then, in Episode 3, we get them finally together, being fun and bantering with one another (I actually enjoyed the opening battle over Coruscant in Sith, and though it was fun and light-hearted, and showed Obi-Wan and Anakin working in tandem for a change), but then they are immediately separated for the rest of the movie, and we don't see them face off again until they have to have their plot dictated final battle.
Basically, the prequels are a wasted opportunity. I think, had Lucas nailed the Anakin/Obi-Wan dynamic like Abrams nailed the Poe/Finn, Finn/Rey dynamic, Episode 3 could have been infinitely better than it was. It wasn't awful. Not by a long shot. There's some good stuff in there (although the Obi-Wan tailing Grievous stuff and battle is just...not interesting, or good; his Kamino adventure in Clones was actually much better). If Lucas was adamant that Anakin be a little boy in Episode 1, I would have made sure that in Episode 2, Obi-Wan and Anakin spent the majority of the movie together, building a relationship.
Kylo Ren is a better Anakin Skywalker than Anakin Skywalker. Which is kind of hilarious, since he wants so badly to be Vader, and isn't. He is truly his grandfather's grandson. lol.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
The last act of ROTJ is better than the entirety of the prequels.
Well, if you don't think the turn is well developed enough I can understand complaining, I just mean to say that I believe the turn was well developed so it's the least of the PTs problems.
The Ewoks are almost as bad as Jar Jar.
LegendofLex
Member
It's not just one brief exchange, though; it's evident at basically every opportunity Anakin has to comment on his own personal agenda/viewpoints.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=191535078&highlight=#post191535078
He thinks more should be done about the bad shit he sees happening in the galaxy, and oh look he's super powerful and can help bring about a regime that can make it happen. The Jedi sure as heck aren't going to let him do that, though. They've done nothing but hold him back anyway; he knows better than they do. Hell, them holding him back means they're obstacles to peace and justice in the galaxy.
You can see how the slippery slope plays out, no?
His entire relationship with Palpatine up to that point had been based on constant goalpost shifting, and after all that he still seriously trusted that Palpatine was his friend and believed that the Jedi were just playing him (of course, they were, but Palpatine let them appear suspicious first while spoonfeeding Anakin what he thought he wanted, so he comes off looking scotch-free). Even though Palpatine didn't really know Plagueis's secret, he's still the only link Anakin has to Plagueis, and he doesn't want to risk severing that link until he's sure Padme is safe.
And in the end he contributes to killing her anyway, so it's not as though it's necessarily immediately obvious that Palpatine was just playing him; he will certainly blame himself first, just like he did with his mother.
For me it wasn't done well enough for me to accept Anakin becoming an ice cold murderer. The way it was written and acted was not convincing. Is there anyone that really thinks the child murder scene works? Anakin is supposed to be a tragic hero, according to Lucas, but that didn't come across on screen. He goes full psychopath before Padme dies and he gets the suit, when it should have been the other way around. His resentment should have turned into permanent rage after he wakes up in the suit and is told his family is dead, that's when Darth Vader from the OT should have been born. Instead he's slicing up children while Padme is still alive, yet Lucas wants us to feel sorry for this guy? There is nothing tragic about what happened to Anakin, he was never a good friend nor a good Jedi. He deserved to burn to death and his actions make Obi-Wan's fond recollection in ANH seem like the ramblings of a senile old man.
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