Yeah, this is one of my major gripes of the movie. Instead of spending that whole sequence on an awkward and bad monster CGI sequence. They could have give Finn and Rey some time alone. Maybe stop into another star port. Somehow get flagged and Solo finds them.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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Yeah, this is one of my major gripes of the movie. Instead of spending that whole sequence on an awkward and bad monster CGI sequence. They could have give Finn and Rey some time alone. Maybe stop into another star port. Somehow get flagged and Solo finds them.
LegendofLex
Member
The fact that Kylo even grapples with killing his father is all you really need to know that he's not some manifestation of pure evil - he's conflicted about what's being expected of him. Add that to the fact that he comes from a family that's deeply entrenched on the other side of the fight, and you get many more layers of potential inner conflict.
Liquidsnake
Banned
That would have been interesting. Everything was break neck speed. Im sure well get more character development and expansion in the next movie.
I think originally he was supposed to die after the crash on Jakku but decided to keep him later in production - Make sense they couldn't add him in without major reshoots.
I think it can be argued that scene was him becoming the pure evil. Which makes things easier going forward. I'm pretty confident he will be less complex and more a raving evil lunatic in ep8. Maybe come ep9 they'll dial it back again, or he will have a scene with Leia.
That scene was Kylo attempting to become pure evil (we don't truly know if he succeeded, honestly). But Kylo does straight up say there's something he knows he must do [kill Han] but isn't sure if he can. That pretty directly shows that he still has some of the light side in him.
LegendofLex
Member
I dunno, he seemed weirdly adamant about training Rey (even though this doesn't seem likely to advance his own ambitions at all and could certainly be interpreted as compassionate since she poses a direct threat to him), and you can definitely tell from the immediate aftermath of Han's death that doing the deed left him greatly internally wounded (represented in exterior fashion by the bowcaster wound and his need to inflict more pain on himself to mask the pain of that wound).
I think it's very likely a "point of no return" type moment that he'll leave him as much the same state in which we find Vader through most of the OT ("it is too late for me, son"), but I'm not sure we can say he's "pure evil" just yet.
He's struggling with abandoning the light side of the force the entire film. His family was the last thing keeping him from turning fully to the dark side (or so he thought). He even "talks" to Vader and admits his weakness/struggle. There's a display/hints of compassion various times in TFA. Plus, as many people seem to forget, this is the FIRST OF THREE films, so maybe we should wait before we jump to all kinds of conclusions about Kylo Ren's character.
If you had only watched ANH, what would you think of Vader?
Right. This is shown and spoken multiple times.. I really don't understand what more someone could have wanted from this from a first film.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Yet both of them showed it through their actions not just their words. I'm not a fan of overvaluing inheritance in discussions for while genes define much of us upbringing will ultimately be far more character defining.
What does Vader have to do with that? Vader seemed somewhat middle management of an evil empire in ANH
Han Solo's death was when we truly saw Kylo Ren being pulled towards the light side. It would have been so easy for him to just let go and return fully to the light side there but he fought through it as hard as he could.
When speaking about his pain and being torn up inside, as the audience, we think he's speaking about the Dark Side. But he's really talking about the Light Side, it's always pulling him towards it and he hates it.
[edit]
From the script.
Before killing Han Solo.
For the first time,
Kylo Ren
seems truly conflicted. Tearsflood his stoic eyes...
After killing him.
Kylo Ren
is somehow WEAKENED by this wicked act. Himselfhorrified. His SHOCK is broken only when --
Not like we really needed the script to tell us what he's feeling since we can clearly see it thanks to Adamn Driver's superb acting.
When speaking about his pain and being torn up inside, as the audience, we think he's speaking about the Dark Side. But he's really talking about the Light Side, it's always pulling him towards it and he hates it.
[edit]
From the script.
Before killing Han Solo.
For the first time,
Kylo Ren
seems truly conflicted. Tearsflood his stoic eyes...
After killing him.
Kylo Ren
is somehow WEAKENED by this wicked act. Himselfhorrified. His SHOCK is broken only when --
Not like we really needed the script to tell us what he's feeling since we can clearly see it thanks to Adamn Driver's superb acting.
Snoke told him to get Rey. He was just following Snoke's orders.
Snoke wanted him to "bring in the girl"
I think it should be obvious with Vader that pure evil doesn't exactly exist. But I think Kylo will more fully fill that role of unconflicted evil going forward. It will be interesting to see what Kylo's relation with Snoke and Luke is.
First half of this 48 minute video is all about the effects of the film. There's some in depth discussion on BB-8 in there, and a couple new glimpses of behind the scenes stuff I haven't seen anywhere else yet.
LegendofLex
Member
Snoke told him to "bring her to me" in a highly menacing fashion, literally right after Kylo says he wants a second shot at breaking her to get the map. Snoke ain't telling Kylo to train her; he wants to break her himself. Kylo's making the calculation to train her on his own.
It might be him crossing a point of no return, or at least a key threashold, but that does not make him any less of a complex character. The look he has when he's killed Han is not one of giving in to evil, but "WTF have I done". Definitely not a clean break to "okay he's evil now".
Even if he goes down that path, he's got a lot of development. His training under Snoke, whether he kills Snoke and become the supreme leader himself, whether he actually has the potential to live up to his idol and grandfather, how his wounds and humiliation at the hand of Rey change him. If anything I think he could be even more interesting in VIII, with even decent writing.
I don't disagree with this. I'm saying he will have less conflict in following the dark side going forward. That element of his character struggle will begin to streamline.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Not saying there should have been no puppets and costumes, just that I missed some of the more imaginative designs from the prequels that are less trivial to pull off with practical effects. Especially Terryl Whitlatch's more outlandish creatures, as well as more unique environments, which were more prominent in the prequels.
Can't agree with the bolded. That bird was there for no other reason than to say: "look! puppets!" It was not only blatantly fake, it was unnecessary since it looked so much like a regular bird they could have just used an animal instead.
I hope they do keep him conflicted, to a degree, but I agree it will diminish after his "test" with Solo.
That's my entire point. His character developed to the other extreme throughout the next two movies and you'd never have known that having only watched ANH. We need to see the other two movies before judging Kylo and his character.
This. I think we'll see him conflicted even after this "final test" which will prove not so final after all. TFA establishes that Kylo is unsuccessful (thus far) as a pure light or dark side user. He's never been able to find his place and self destructs in the very process. I think we'll see more of his instability in the future and personally don't think he'll ever truly be satisfied with who he is.
Really? We're complaining about the bird now? I've seen it 5 times and think it positively contributes to world building. This is true nitpicking, IMO.
While I hope Episode VIII isn't a shot for shot remake of ESB, I do think we're going to see Ren force choking dudes to death like Vader did in Empire.
A lot of dudes.
Like a badass.
I like what he did in Ep7 - force pulls people up to him in order to choke them the old fashioned way instead of doing a carbon copy version of Vader's force choke. I want more of that.
Same. That was one of the very best and most original scenes in the entire movie.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I just gave it as an example of a shot in which the use of practical effects was superfluous. I didn't say it brought the movie down or anything. If you want a more meaningful criticism of practical effects, then I'll go with the alien character who hands out rations. Really boring, derivative design.
There's almost a blank canvas for Ep. 8 and 9, now. There's no more excuse to hit the mark so closely to the OT. I can't wait to see what directions it'll go.
No problem, agree to disagree here, though. Thought the bird was great.
I honestly like the powers they showed Kylo having in this moving.
- Stopping a blaster shot in mid-air with the Force
- Force pulling people instead of force choking
- More elaborate mind trick / mind reading
- Freezing people's limbs in place with the Force
I liked that some of his powers were similar to Vader's but not identical to Vader's. It was a good job of making Kylo look like a Vader wannabe but not a Vader doppleganger.
Yeah I agree. The force was used in new and exciting ways with Kylo. Now let's see what Luke's got for Rey.
That's a much better example.. and while it didn't bother me, I agree that world building needs to improve in general, especially in comparison to the other two trilogies. And I think it will. Looper had some good world building.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Great in the sense that you enjoyed it?
Certainly not great in the sense that it looked like anything other than a puppet.
It looked like a bird that fit within the world of Jakku. Not sure why that would be so surprising or difficult to understand? Yes, I thought it was great. But I also didn't pirate the movie and freeze frame on its design.
CD'S BAR
Member
Speak for yourself, I guess. I'll say that those reasons you mentioned are not the only reasons I and many others were impressed by him. I won't belabor the stuff from the post of mine you quoted.
But I'll say I don't think that more development/characterization - and certainly not more backstory - necessarily makes a better villain. We know just enough about Vader in ANH, not too much or too little.
I mean, you know that dude was a combination of practical and CG, right? Practical body suit, entirely CG face.
I think Blade can sum up your argument best here:
Just really think your fighting a losing battle with this one.
It was charmingly and deliberately old fashioned, and a cute bit of world building. Here's some dumb bird on this crappy planet that scavenges the wreckage exactly like Rey does. Can you explain how this specific creature being CG would have improved the shot? It would have just been distracting as a CG creature rather than as a puppet. At least this way it was a tangible thing in the world, which is exactly the stuff people complained about with the use of CG in the prequels and OT special edition changes/additions.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm judging him by what I've seen so far, I can always reevaluate him later when I've seen more.
I don't think anyone was saying that Vader is any less impressive as a villain, just that his backstory wasn't filled in quite as much as Ren's at FIRST. You'll find no arguments as to how Vader is not an impressive villain, even without the development of the other two films. He's classic.
I loved touches like the bird. It brought that old school creature vibe back.
Yup. Loved this. I honestly never even considered it being a puppet until this thread.
For me the bird was there to give that whole area bit more life and give it a slightly alien vibe to it. I thought it visually looked fine on the screen. A CGI bird would have looked just as fake, if not faker, and a CGI bird wouldn't age nearly as well as a practical effect bird.
In fact CGI elements in general age a lot faster than practical effects. Just look at the Clone Troopers from the end of Attack of the Clones - those look awful these days and that movies not even 15 years old. Meanwhile, for comparison, Aliens is a 30 year old movie that looks pretty damn great.
I loved that touch. In part for the way if fleshed out Jakku a bit, and in part because of how it was a nice parallel for where Rey was on the totem pole. She does a friendly honk of her bike horn as she drives by, acknowledging a fellow scavenger. That gesture lends a bit of texture to Rey's introduction, as well.
Wow, still haven't even noticed this. Nice catch.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Vader could choke people from miles away. That's gotta be more useful, which I guess is the point. Like how Vader could use telepathy from a distance and without making shadow puppets with his hand.
The bridge scene was so great and Driver completely killed it in that the audience the entire time had this feeling of dread, this feeling that they knew what was going to happen but at the same time still hoped it wouldn't.
It perfectly mimicked Han's feelings, and is part of what makes Kylo such a great villain.
A couple people have said to me 'oh I knew it was going to happen', but that's the point. It's less about any sort of surprise at what occurs, and more simply letting the inevitability of it sink in.
Exceptional scene.
It perfectly mimicked Han's feelings, and is part of what makes Kylo such a great villain.
A couple people have said to me 'oh I knew it was going to happen', but that's the point. It's less about any sort of surprise at what occurs, and more simply letting the inevitability of it sink in.
Exceptional scene.
The Librarian
Banned
What about that wide-eyed alien in the sand? That was cool to me.
Liquidsnake
Banned
Ill take it a step further, and say that Kylo is the most interesting character in recent memory.
The Librarian
Banned
Practical effects can never be superfluous. That bird will be more life-like and *real* 50 years from now than any CGI they could've used in its place.
Yeah, I was listening to a long review of the film (Jedi Council) last night, and one of the critiques was how telegraphed Han's death was in that scene. I think they missed that there's a few ways to do that kind of scene. One is to shock audiences with a surprise. Another is to make them feel like a helpless onlooker as the inevitable slowly happens. Rey and Finn on the upper level are a proxy for the audience: watching with a growing feeling of dread. The film cuts to them a times in during the scene, as they grow increasingly anxious as it plays out. The foreshadowing was clearly intentional.
Was it me, or did that one look just like one that was in the cantina on Tatooine? I haven't gone back to look but I love the idea that we saw the home planet for one of those creatures.
Great post. That scene was NOT about surprise; there are so many giveaways you'd have to be a fool to think so. It's all about the experience and being a helpless spectator, as stated directly above my post.
I guess I dont understand why people are complaining about Han's death being telegraphed. Not everything needs a shocking "what a twist" moment in order to be effective. Vader's turn at the end of Return of the Jedi is telegraphed halfway through the movie and you see it coming a mile away, that didn't make it any less magnificent. Seeing Han's death coming was what made the whole scene better.
That thing that popped up after BB-8 ran from the village attack at the beginning? Love that thing. It captured that kind of world building stuff that the originals had down so well, inviting you to ask what it is and think about the world yourself. Like, what was that? Was that actually a living creature? Was it a periscope-type instrument for some contraption under the sand? Is it malicious or not? It's literal function was simply to convey to the audience that BB-8 is being watched, but it's the type of little element that can get your imagination racing and make the world feel real.
I think some people have mistaken how the film telegraphs his death as a failure of execution, rather than a creative decision. The review I mentioned said it was a badly staged setup because it didn't hide the twist of Han's death. They misunderstood that the film wasn't trying to. People can still prefer it have been done differently, but a lot of the discussion about it has been acting like they tried to one thing and failed, rather than intentionally doing something else.
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