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[Surfinn]

I think some people have mistaken how the film telegraphs his death as a failure of execution, rather than a creative decision. The review I mentioned said it was a badly staged setup because it didn't hide the twist of Han's death. They misunderstood that the film wasn't trying to.

Yeah, that's a silly criticism of them, wow.

 

[greatestjediever]

Yeah, I was listening to a long review of the film (Jedi Council) last night, and one of the critiques was how telegraphed Han's death was in that scene. I think they missed that there's a few ways to do that kind of scene. One is to shock audiences with a surprise. Another is to make them feel like a helpless onlooker as the inevitable slowly happens. Rey and Finn on the upper level are a proxy for the audience: watching with a growing feeling of dread. The film cuts to them a times in during the scene, as they grow increasingly anxious as it plays out. The foreshadowing was clearly intentional.



Was it me, or did that one look just like one that was in the cantina on Tatooine? I haven't gone back to look but I love the idea that we saw the home planet for one of those creatures.

Almost, but not quite.

 

[Sephzilla]

I thought the wide eyed thing that popped up after BB8 ran by was supposed to be an allusion to the Bad Robot card that usually pops up for JJ Abrams movies

 

[LevelNth]

Ill take it a step further, and say that Kylo is the most interesting character in recent memory.

Yeah, I was listening to a long review of the film (Jedi Council) last night, and one of the critiques was how telegraphed Han's death was in that scene. I think they missed that there's a few ways to do that kind of scene. One is to shock audiences with a surprise. Another is to make them feel like a helpless onlooker as the inevitable slowly happens. Rey and Finn on the upper level are a proxy for the audience: watching with a growing feeling of dread; the film cuts to them a times in the scene growing increasingly anxious as it plays out. The foreshadowing was clearly intentional.

Absolutely agree with you both. It's easy to forget, Kylo has to take the place of perhaps the most beloved and famous movie villain of all time. The prequels never had this issue because it was about Vader before he was Vader.

This is beyond an easy task, and is why Driver easily had the toughest task in this film. Rey and Finn had Han, Ren had no one.

It was imperative as well that since he was Han and Leia's son, he would automatically generate empathy and compassion from the audience. How could he not, he's the son of those beloved characters! Hence why the bridge scene is so great, and so pivotal.

In order to truly accept him as a villain we needed to see him have a moment, have a chance to truly be good, only to betray us all and do what many of us never, ever wanted to see happen in a movie.

It's still impossible to fully hate him, because we know there is still something there, but it will never change one simple, solitary fact that none of us will ever forget: he killed Han Solo.

 

[-griffy-]

I think some people have mistaken how the film telegraphs his death as a failure of execution, rather than a creative decision. The review I mentioned said it was a badly staged setup because it didn't hide the twist of Han's death. They misunderstood that the film wasn't trying to.

They make a big point of Han deciding to step out onto the bridge. He hesitates at first, because he knows if he walks out there he may be walking to his death, but he decides to anyways. We know that too. We've been told that Kylo needs to kill Han. There are only two outcomes when he walks out on that bridge: Han lives or Han dies. It really shouldn't be a surprise when one of those ends up happening.

To back it up even more, Kylo senses when Han lands on the other side of the planet. He walks in the room making a big show like they are searching for the intruders, but of course if he can feel Han's presence miles away, he certainly knows he's in the room. He knows Han is watching him. That's why he walks out onto the bridge. He's deliberately leading Han out there.

 

[LevelNth]

I think some people have mistaken how the film telegraphs his death as a failure of execution, rather than a creative decision. The review I mentioned said it was a badly staged setup because it didn't hide the twist of Han's death. They misunderstood that the film wasn't trying to. People can still prefer it have been done differently, but a lot of the discussion about it has been acting like they tried to one thing and failed, rather than intentionally doing something else.

I might be in the minority but a shocking, twist style death of Han would've been the absolute worst way to kill him. He's pretty much the 'rogue' character of the last 40 years, you don't do him off for a cheap thrill.

His death needs to reverberate throughout the rest of entire new trilogy.

 

[The Librarian]

That thing that popped up after BB-8 ran from the village attack at the beginning? Love that thing. It captured that kind of world building stuff that the originals had down so well, inviting you to ask what it is and think about the world yourself. Like, what was that? Was that actually a living creature? Was it a periscope-type instrument for some contraption under the sand? Is it malicious or not? It's literal function was simply to convey to the audience that BB-8 is being watched, but it's the type of little element that can get your imagination racing and make the world feel real.

That's the one!!!

 

[WadiumArcadium]

One of the main reasons Han's death works so well is because you know it's coming. Even Han knows what will likely happen, but he has to try.

Even in my second viewing, my heart was beating ridiculously fast in the build up to that scene lol.

 

[Surfinn]

One of the main reasons Han's death works so well is because you know it's coming. Even Han knows what will likely happen, but he has to try.

Even in my second viewing, my heart was beating ridiculously fast in the build up to that scene lol.

That's the only crappy thing about rewatches.. you're gunna have to watch Han die every time, lol. They do an incredible job of building dread right before. Going in for a birthday viewing tomorrow in IMAX.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

It looked like a bird that fit within the world of Jakku. Not sure why that would be so surprising or difficult to understand? Yes, I thought it was great. But I also didn't pirate the movie and freeze frame on its design.

No need for that. I didn't pirate the movie and freeze frame, it just stood out to me in the cinema during my first view.

I mean, you know that dude was a combination of practical and CG, right? Practical body suit, entirely CG face.

I think Blade can sum up your argument best here:

I have no problem changing my complaint to be strictly about the art direction if that's what you're implying.

Just really think your fighting a losing battle with this one.

It was charmingly and deliberately old fashioned, and a cute bit of world building. Here's some dumb bird on this crappy planet that scavenges the wreckage exactly like Rey does. Can you explain how this specific creature being CG would have improved the shot? It would have just been distracting as a CG creature rather than as a puppet. At least this way it was a tangible thing in the world, which is exactly the stuff people complained about with the use of CG in the prequels and OT special edition changes/additions.

Regarding the bolded, that was my point. It was an effects shot designed to look like an effects shot, when the sensible thing to do was just film a bird. I specifically said in my post that it should have been a live animal, not cg. And that's exactly what superfluous use of an effect means. Just like cgi can be superfluous, so can practical.

Yup. Loved this. I honestly never even considered it being a puppet until this thread.

What did you think it was?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I mean he killed the newly founded Jedi order, that's all the reason people should need to have him be irredeemable. Sure Vader turned again but he died for it which was pretty much the only good outcome possible for him.

Even if Kylo had come back he'd have been imprisoned for the rest of his life, depending on whether they have the death penalty and whether Leia would have intervened. I mean the FO just killed billions of people.

Don't know how others felt but during the scene I didn't feel helpless I felt disgruntled that instead of making an entirely original iconic scene they decided to have just another OT call back.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Practical effects can never be superfluous. That bird will be more life-like and *real* 50 years from now than any CGI they could've used in its place.

I loved that touch. In part for the way if fleshed out Jakku a bit, and in part because of how it was a nice parallel for where Rey was on the totem pole. She does a friendly honk of her bike horn as she drives by, acknowledging a fellow scavenger. That gesture lends a bit of texture to Rey's introduction, as well.

For me the bird was there to give that whole area bit more life and give it a slightly alien vibe to it. I thought it visually looked fine on the screen. A CGI bird would have looked just as fake, if not faker, and a CGI bird wouldn't age nearly as well as a practical effect bird.

In fact CGI elements in general age a lot faster than practical effects. Just look at the Clone Troopers from the end of Attack of the Clones - those look awful these days and that movies not even 15 years old. Meanwhile, for comparison, Aliens is a 30 year old movie that looks pretty damn great.

I loved touches like the bird. It brought that old school creature vibe back.

Yup. Loved this. I honestly never even considered it being a puppet until this thread.

There seems to be some confusion here. If you read my eariler post, I specifically say it should have been a live animal, not cgi.

 

[Brakke]

Han's death didn't matter to me at all. I'd already accepted the whole idea of Han as dead when they started the prequels and it was clear he wasn't showing up there. Fictional characters dying is only "sad" in that it means we don't get to see an actor playing a role again; before this movie I would've put the chances of Ford reprising Han close to nil. And it's not like Ford was relinquishing a beloved role. So there's nothing emotional about it, extra-textually.

And there's not much in the text either. The only person in the movie who's really fucked up about it is Chewie (who barely qualifies as "person"). Finn and Rey barely knew Han, Leia's sad but obviously in a place where she'll carry it gracefully, Kylo's feelings about it aren't really explored. So I'm hardly even impacted by empathizing with any character's loss.

To make a mess of a metaphor: it felt transparently like a pass-the-torch kind of moment but Ford/Han wasn't holding the torch, the torch ran out years and years ago.

 

[Surfinn]

No need for that. I didn't pirate the movie and freeze frame, it just stood out to me in the cinema during my first view.

What did you think it was?

Wasn't trying to imply that you did that, poor choice of words. I meant that as in "I didn't overanalyse the scene"; I was more giving a hypothetical of how someone could nitpick (an exaggerated example).

Honestly, I just assumed it was a bird with prosthetic attachment. It looked really cool to me. I was saying that I had no idea it was a puppet, in my other post you quoted, not that you thought it should be.

Han's death didn't matter to me at all. I'd already accepted the whole idea of Han as dead when they started the prequels and it was clear he wasn't showing up there. Fictional characters dying is only "sad" in that it means we don't get to see an actor playing a role again; before this movie I would've put the chances of Ford reprising Han close to nil. And it's not like Ford was relinquishing a beloved role. So there's nothing emotional about it, extra-textually.

And there's not much in the text either. The only person in the movie who's really fucked up about it is Chewie (who barely qualifies as "person"). Finn and Rey barely knew Han, Leia's sad but obviously in a place where she'll carry it gracefully, Kylo's feelings about it aren't really explored. So I'm hardly even impacted by empathizing with any character's loss.

To make a mess of a metaphor: it felt transparently like a pass-the-torch kind of moment but Ford/Han wasn't holding the torch, the torch ran out years and years ago.

This is a bizarre interpretation. You accepted his death based on.. what? Interviews? In the movies (pre-TFA), one would just assume he lived happily ever after with Leia. What do the prequels have to do with this?

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Han's death didn't matter to me at all. I'd already accepted the whole idea of Han as dead when they started the prequels and it was clear he wasn't showing up there. Fictional characters dying is only "sad" in that it means we don't get to see an actor playing a role again; before this movie I would've put the chances of Ford reprising Han close to nil. And it's not like Ford was relinquishing a beloved role. So there's nothing emotional about it, extra-textually.

And there's not much in the text either. The only person in the movie who's really fucked up about it is Chewie (who barely qualifies as "person"). Finn and Rey barely knew Han, Leia's sad but obviously in a place where she'll carry it gracefully, Kylo's feelings about it aren't really explored. So I'm hardly even impacted by empathizing with any character's loss.

To make a mess of a metaphor: it felt transparently like a pass-the-torch kind of moment but Ford/Han wasn't holding the torch, the torch ran out years and years ago.

Are you talking about personally or in general? Because people love the fuck out of Han Solo. There's a reason he and Chewie were a celebrated reveal at the end of teaser 2.

And do you seriously think the only reason people are sad over characters dying is because of the actor?

 

[Surfinn]

Are you talking about personally or in general? Because people love the fuck out of Han Solo. There's a reason he and Chewie were a celebrated reveal at the end of teaser 2.

And do you seriously think the only reason people are sad over characters dying is because of the actor?

Right. Regardless of what Ford thinks about the role, people love Han Solo and his death was highly significant. It's just a weird train of thought to base your emotions about Han's death upon what the actor thought of playing the role.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Honestly, I just assumed it was a bird with prosthetic attachment. It looked really cool to me. I was saying that I had no idea it was a puppet, in my other post you quoted, not that you thought it should be.

then that's great! it means the effect worked for you. For me, it didn't. Just like some cgi effects bother some people more than others. If we can agree on that then we can agree that practical has its limitations too, and that being fake in a way that is familiar doesn't make it inhernetly more believable.

 

[Brakke]

I mean Han wasn't a role beloved by Ford. Harrison Ford hasn't been some hero of the fandom he's always had an attitude of begrudging kind of tolerating of Han.

This is a bizarre interpretation. You accepted his death based on.. what? Interviews? In the movies (pre-TFA), one would just assume he lived happily ever after with Leia. What do the prequels have to do with this?

Han's been assumed "dead" to screen for years. It was a surprise when I heard he was going to be in this new movie because I'd already written off the possibility of Ford coming back to the role.

Like it hurt when Sean Bean's Ned died on Game of Thrones because at that point he was sort of core to the whole Game of Thrones thing. I liked the character and Bean was good in the role and it was hard to imagine what even is this show without him as the moral center. Ford/Han departing Star Wars isn't as significant because he had already departed years and years ago.

 

[Surfinn]

then that's great! it means the effect worked for you. For me, it didn't. Just like some cgi effects bother some people more than others. If we can agree on that then we can agree that practical has its limitations too, and that being fake in a way that is familiar doesn't make it inhernetly more believable.

One thing I feel really strongly about is "real" animals and people not ever being CGI (i.e. birds, rats, monkeys (I'm looking at you Indy 4). It just looks so fake to the human eye, because we've seen those animals in person and already know exactly how they move and appear. I'm not saying it can't ever be done, but I've yet to see it done right, especially when you're talking about a close up with a lot of detail.

I'm sorry it didn't work for you but I'm just surprised because I've never seen it criticized before and thought it looked great.

I mean Han wasn't a role beloved by Ford. Harrison Ford hasn't been some hero of the fandom he's always had an attitude of begrudging kind of tolerating of Han.

But.. why would you let his opinion on Han change yours?

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Han's death didn't matter to me at all. I'd already accepted the whole idea of Han as dead when they started the prequels and it was clear he wasn't showing up there. Fictional characters dying is only "sad" in that it means we don't get to see an actor playing a role again; before this movie I would've put the chances of Ford reprising Han close to nil. And it's not like Ford was relinquishing a beloved role. So there's nothing emotional about it, extra-textually.

And there's not much in the text either. The only person in the movie who's really fucked up about it is Chewie (who barely qualifies as "person"). Finn and Rey barely knew Han, Leia's sad but obviously in a place where she'll carry it gracefully, Kylo's feelings about it aren't really explored. So I'm hardly even impacted by empathizing with any character's loss.

To make a mess of a metaphor: it felt transparently like a pass-the-torch kind of moment but Ford/Han wasn't holding the torch, the torch ran out years and years ago.

wtf

Chewie was great in this film

 

[Surfinn]

wtf

Chewie was great in this film

That was going to be my second post. Barely qualifies as a person..? What. And Han's death is really REALLY being downplayed there.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

One thing I feel really strongly about is "real" animals and people not ever being CGI (i.e. birds, rats, monkeys (I'm looking at you Indy 4). It just looks so fake to the human eye, because we've seen those animals in person and already know exactly how they move and appear. I'm not saying it can't ever be done, but I've yet to see it done right, especially when you're talking about a close up with a lot of detail.

I'm sorry it didn't work for you but I'm just surprised because I've never seen it criticized before and thought it looked great.

that was pretty much exactly my criticism, that the "creature" they decided to construct was so similar to a bird it would have made more sense to just use a real bird. Hence, a superfluous effect.

edit: technically, unless the next movies shed further light on the character, the same could be said for Snoke - what we saw on screen could have easily been accomplished by a live actor wearing prosthetics.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

That was going to be my second post. Barely qualifies as a person..? What. And Han's death is really REALLY being downplayed there.

I mean he was at times being treated like a dog.

 

[-griffy-]

that was pretty much exactly my criticism, that the "creature" they decided to construct was so similar to a bird it would have made more sense to just use a real bird. Hence, a superfluous effect.

edit: technically, unless the next movies shed further light on the character, the same could be said for Snoke - what we saw on screen could have easily been accomplished by a live actor wearing prosthetics.

Man, your argument is very confused at this point. Now you're saying that more stuff should have been real in the film.

 

[Surfinn]

that was pretty much exactly my criticism, that the "creature" they decided to construct was so similar to a bird it would have made more sense to just use a real bird. Hence, a superfluous effect.

But, at least where we stand with CGI and practical effects now.. it makes MUCH more sense to go with a prop. To my eye, it looks infinitely better, not just here, but in pretty much every other example. Jaws, Jurassic Park (I know, dinos, but still) hold up damn well for close ups. The gophers and monkeys in Indy 4 do not (never did, quite frankly).

Is there even an example of a passable CGI "real" animal (up close)?

EDIT: Oh wait, you're saying they should have just used a real bird. For some reason I thought there was a CGI argument later on in your posts.

In regard to ACTUALLY using a bird.. who knows if that's even possible/humane (prosthetic of that kind on a bird)? It's probably more of a sure thing to just build it.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Man, your argument is very confused at this point. Now you're saying that more stuff should have been real in the film.

Which part should I explain?

 

[Brakke]

I mean he was at times being treated like a dog.

Yeah. Until Han's death Chewie's whole thing is handing Han his bowcaster a couple times, handing Han his own jacket, and then growling in pain at Finn. He's a dog who can fetch and is defensive when he's hurt.

 

[Surfinn]

Han's been assumed "dead" to screen for years. It was a surprise when I heard he was going to be in this new movie because I'd already written off the possibility of Ford coming back to the role.

Why would you assume such a thing? Aside from Ford wanting his character to be killed off, there's absolutely no reason anyone would think this.

 

[Brakke]

Do you know of many cases of actors reprising roles 33 years later? Is that a thing that happens ever? Spock I guess? The Terminator maybe?

If Disney hadn't acquired Star Wars, would Lucas have ever made another Star Wars movie? If he had, would Ford have been willing to come back? Ford coming back was a unimaginable until the acquisition.

 

[-griffy-]

Do you know of many cases of actors reprising roles 33 years later? Is that a thing that happens ever? Spock I guess? The Terminator maybe?

If Disney hadn't acquired Star Wars, would Lucas have ever made another Star Wars movie? If he had, would Ford have been willing to come back? Ford coming back was a unimaginable until the acquisition.

Pretty sure Lucas himself talked to Ford, Hamill and Fisher about coming back for new movies before Disney even bought Lucasfilm. They were all on board before Abrams even entered the picture.

Yeah, here's the Rolling Stone interview with Hamill:

What I didn't foresee is him selling the company. When he told us all this – in the summer of 2012, he had lunch with all of us and said –

All of you together?

No. What happened was we were in Anaheim at one of the Star Wars celebrations; Carrie was there, I was there with my daughter and wife, and George wanted to have lunch with us. I said, "Well, something's up," and my wife jokingly said, "He's probably gonna do another trilogy." And I have to tell you, I feel embarrassed now, because I just laughed derisively at how stupid that idea was. "No, look. Come on, let's get real. They had to be nice to us when they wanted us to do the DVD extras, remember that? It's gonna be something like that."

So when he actually said the words, so matter-of-factly: "Well, I don't know what you know but I've decided to sell the company, Kathleen Kennedy's gonna take over and they're gonna wanna be doing another trilogy. And if you don't wanna be in it, you don't have to be. We're not gonna recast; we just write your characters out." Within 30, 40 seconds, Carrie goes, "I'm in!" [Laughs] And she then asked about whether there's a part for Billie, her daughter.

Did you have any doubts that Harrison Ford would agree to come back?

Absolutely! At one point, we were back at the hotel and I said to Carrie, "You know, the ace in the hole is Harrison's not gonna do this. Why would he?" So that's our escape clause. If I'm the only one I'll look terrible, but if he doesn't do it I don't have to do it! I just didn't expect it.

 

[Surfinn]

Do you know of many cases of actors reprising roles 33 years later? Is that a thing that happens ever? Spock I guess? The Terminator maybe?

If Disney hadn't acquired Star Wars, would Lucas have ever made another Star Wars movie? If he had, would Ford have been willing to come back? Ford coming back was a unimaginable until the acquisition.

So because Ford might not ever reprise his role in a new Star Wars, he'd just automatically be dead in the story line? There's no reason to assume this..

 

[LegendofLex]

So because Ford might not ever reprise his role in a new Star Wars, he'd just automatically be dead in the story line? There's no reason to assume this..

There's a reason "dead" was in quotations in Brakke's previous post and followed by "to screen."

Han's been assumed "dead" to screen for years. It was a surprise when I heard he was going to be in this new movie because I'd already written off the possibility of Ford coming back to the role.

 

[Brakke]

Pretty sure Lucas himself talked to Ford, Hamill and Fisher about coming back for new movies before Disney even bought Lucasfilm. They were all on board before Abrams even entered the picture.

Wow really? I hadn't heard that.

So because Ford might not ever reprise his role in a new Star Wars, he'd just automatically be dead in the story line? There's no reason to assume this..

You're misunderstanding. Let me break it down.

1) I figured I'd never see Harrison Ford as Han again.
2) One reason to be sad when a character dies is because you'll never see them again.

I didn't feel 2) because 1).

 

[Surfinn]

There's a reason "dead" was in quotations in Brakke's previous post and followed by "to screen."

Wow really? I hadn't heard that.



You're misunderstanding. Let me break it down.

1) I figured I'd never see Harrison Ford as Han again.
2) One reason to be sad when a character dies is because you'll never see them again.

I didn't feel 2) because 1).

Han's death didn't matter to me at all. I'd already accepted the whole idea of Han as dead when they started the prequels and it was clear he wasn't showing up there. Fictional characters dying is only "sad" in that it means we don't get to see an actor playing a role again; before this movie I would've put the chances of Ford reprising Han close to nil. And it's not like Ford was relinquishing a beloved role. So there's nothing emotional about it, extra-textually.

This is what I was referring to, his original post about it. This is where my confusion came from. I was saying there's no reason to assume or accept that Han died, regardless of how likely Ford was willing and/or able to return to the role.

 

[Brakke]

"The idea of Han" not "Han".

 

[Surfinn]

"The idea of Han" not "Han".

And I was and am still saying it's silly to accept the idea of Han dying. CONSIDERING it would be different, but was directly followed your statement of how Han's death didn't have meaning to you.

 

[prag16]

then that's great! it means the effect worked for you. For me, it didn't. Just like some cgi effects bother some people more than others. If we can agree on that then we can agree that practical has its limitations too, and that being fake in a way that is familiar doesn't make it inhernetly more believable.

Ha. I didn't like the bird either. It looked incredibly goofy and out of place to me, so much so that I just assumed it was bad CGI.

If it was actually a puppet, that's well, whatever. Not a big deal to me either way. Not going to personally give this one any medals for alleged "world building" though.

 

[Surfinn]

Ha. I didn't like the bird either. It looked incredibly goofy and out of place to me, so much so that I just assumed it was bad CGI.

If it was actually a puppet, that's well, whatever. Not a big deal to me either way. Not going to personally give this one any medals for alleged "world building" though.

I will. Thought it helped develop the world and contributed to the illusion of being on Jakku. Funny, I thought it was a real bird. Good vision too, lol.

 

[Oidisco]

Yea I thought that bird was pretty bad too. Immediately jumped out at me when I 1st saw it. If the shot hadn't lingered on the bird it would've been ok I guess

 

[prag16]

Yea I thought that bird was pretty bad too. Immediately jumped out at me when I 1st saw it. If the shot hadn't lingered on the bird it would've been ok I guess

To me it was on the same level as that toad thing Lucas added outside Jabba's palace. Actually probably worse. More goofy/jarring at least.

 

[Surfinn]

To me it was on the same level as that toad thing Lucas added outside Jabba's palace. Actually probably worse. More goofy/jarring at least.

In all honesty, the only puppet/costume I've seen that looks jarringly ridiculous is the blue elephant from Jedi. That thing is just bad.

 

[CassSept]

That thing that popped up after BB-8 ran from the village attack at the beginning? Love that thing. It captured that kind of world building stuff that the originals had down so well, inviting you to ask what it is and think about the world yourself. Like, what was that? Was that actually a living creature? Was it a periscope-type instrument for some contraption under the sand? Is it malicious or not? It's literal function was simply to convey to the audience that BB-8 is being watched, but it's the type of little element that can get your imagination racing and make the world feel real.

That little bit is absolutely fantastic. It's a great and subtle bit of world-building that's brief enough to make an impression, yet not overstay it's welcome. A complete reversal of what Lucas did with cluttering the frame in prequels/special editions.

In all honesty, the only puppet/costume I've seen that looks jarringly ridiculous is the blue elephant from Jedi. That thing is just bad.

How was the original Sy Snootles? I'm honest, I don't think I ever saw it (maybe in the '90s...) and I'm afraid to look up.

Jedi Rocks is pretty much the only reason I would ever refrain from recommending the entire OT to anyone. It's dreadful.

Though to be fair, that lizard bounty hunter from ESB looks weird too.

 

[freethought]

This is what I was referring to, his original post about it. This is where my confusion came from. I was saying there's no reason to assume or accept that Han died, regardless of how likely Ford was willing and/or able to return to the role.

Everybody dies. It was a long time ago.

 

[Surfinn]

That little bit is absolutely fantastic. It's a great and subtle bit of world-building that's brief enough to make an impression, yet not overstay it's welcome. A complete reversal of what Lucas did with cluttering the frame in prequels/special editions.



How was the original Sy Snootles? I'm honest, I don't think I ever saw it (maybe in the '90s...) and I'm afraid to look up.

Jedi Rocks is pretty much the only reason I would ever refrain from recommending the entire OT to anyone. It's dreadful.

Though to be fair, that lizard bounty hunter from ESB looks weird too.

The original was fine. That's why you watch the Despecialized editions.

Lizard bounty hunter was an incredible design! Holds up well today I think.

Everybody dies. It was a long time ago.

Obviously not THAT long considering everyone came back to reprise their roles. And they wouldn't have had to kill them all off if no one came back..

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

One of the biggest disappointments for me was Abrams casting these guys and using them as some crappy mercenaries that likely got killed off immediately. I thought they would have used some level of fight choreography with the Knights of Ren or whatever.

 

[Surfinn]

One of the biggest disappointments for me was Abrams casting these guys and using them as some crappy mercenaries that likely got killed off immediately. I thought they would have used some level of fight choreography with the Knights of Ren or whatever.

I thought I read somewhere that they did a lot more in that scene but it was cut. Maybe it will appear as a deleted scene when it hits video.

 

[Hawkian]

What about that wide-eyed alien in the sand? That was cool to me.

ko-chee-nah

 

[prag16]

In all honesty, the only puppet/costume I've seen that looks jarringly ridiculous is the blue elephant from Jedi. That thing is just bad.

False. Max Rebo is a badass.

Spoiler

Kidding. Mostly.

 

[Patchy]

What about that wide-eyed alien in the sand? That was cool to me.

Yeah, I was hoping it lead somewhere though.

I assumed it was going to snatch BB-8 instead of that random alien.

Still cool.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I dunno, he seemed weirdly adamant about training Rey (even though this doesn't seem likely to advance his own ambitions at all and could certainly be interpreted as compassionate since she poses a direct threat to him), and you can definitely tell from the immediate aftermath of Han's death that doing the deed left him greatly internally wounded (represented in exterior fashion by the bowcaster wound and his need to inflict more pain on himself to mask the pain of that wound).

I think it's very likely a "point of no return" type moment that he'll leave him as much the same state in which we find Vader through most of the OT ("it is too late for me, son"), but I'm not sure we can say he's "pure evil" just yet.

This ties into my theory that:

Rey is Luke's daughter - and Kylo is aware of this (there is no reason for him to explicitly state it in the film) - that is why when he is informed of BB-8 escaping, he slashes up some computers, but when he hears "a girl was with them" he force chokes the dude across a room.

I get the distinct feeling Luke wiped her memory and hid her away from Kylo/Snoke/The First Order to ensure if they found him they wouldn't kill her as well. Kylo probably knew he had a cousin (I have a feeling she was at the temple when he slaughtered the trainees... you can hear her screaming "no!" in the background... likely around 4-5 years old maybe?) - if you remember, he states he wants to finish what Vader started - IMO that is hinting at turning a Skywalker and ruling the galaxy (with Rey as his underling/apprentice).






TL;DR Kylo knows Rey is his cousin and wants her to join him to kill Snoke - the reason being: he can fulfill what Vader could not with Luke - turning a Skywalker to the dark side