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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No, not really. It was pretty contradictory. I believe at one point he mentions Lucasfilm's creative independence/autonomy to some extent, and then describes the film as having been rolled off the Disney Assembly Line. His argument shifts and rolls as needed to get to the point he really wants to make about originality/creativity in Hollywood, articles that have been written before by better writers with stronger points, but also didn't have the benefit of there being a Star Wars movie in theaters to draw 2x the spotlight.
Same with the Hollywood Reporter article that acts as if "Shakesperean Saga" (i.e. Soap Opera) is somehow better/classier than Harry Potter intrinsically. Which is--okay. But as predicted, the number of writers who are showing up now to make the argument that the Prequels are misunderstood acts of over-ambitious storytelling was not only predictable, but a little disingenuous, honestly.
Interfectum
Member
OricWindstar
Member
I'm all for debate and pointing out the flaws of this movie, plenty of which has gone on here and had merit, but when your article has "Admit It..." in the title, you've already lost me.
From the article:
Look, I liked TFA, but honestly it lacks any sense of creativity even compared to the prequels. The prequels were full of some critically bad things, yes, but creatively... TFA was kind of bankrupt.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
"27 Reasons Why The Force Awakens is a Major Disappointment. #14 Had Us Nodding in Agreement!!!"
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
Creativity doesn't mean good though but you do make a point there on TFA on somewhat being bankrupt
Teletraan1
Banned
I know that is the point. I never refuted that. I just think he was a bit too goofy looking, he had a "I just shit my pants" look on his face after the mask came off. They were kind of beating you over the head with the contrast. It was almost the same reaction you would get when Dark Helmet reveals he is Rick Moranis.
As far as the hate that this movie is getting now. Well guess what. Counter culture shitheads come out of the woodwork as soon as something is popular. That is not some new phenomenon.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is sorta what we do with big national conversations now, really. There's the story hitting, and the rush of excitement as we all have something to share.
And then editors get to work trying to figure out their own unique angles that will garner a larger percentage of people in the conversation, and perhaps even steer it. Writers will pitch stories that Editors are hungry for because their angle will do exactly what they want.
Whether it's written all that well isn't even necessarily super important anymore, honestly, because most of you will have gleaned its information thirdhand, via an entertainment news blog run by hustling enthusiasts likely not even earning a paycheck, whose entire job is to scan rss feeds for those hot takes, reword (take out of context and misinterpret, often) them, and then bury a link at the bottom of their own post back to the original.
And then editors get to work trying to figure out their own unique angles that will garner a larger percentage of people in the conversation, and perhaps even steer it. Writers will pitch stories that Editors are hungry for because their angle will do exactly what they want.
Whether it's written all that well isn't even necessarily super important anymore, honestly, because most of you will have gleaned its information thirdhand, via an entertainment news blog run by hustling enthusiasts likely not even earning a paycheck, whose entire job is to scan rss feeds for those hot takes, reword (take out of context and misinterpret, often) them, and then bury a link at the bottom of their own post back to the original.
Interfectum
Member
Both the LA Times and Hollywood Reporter article suffer from the same issue, they blame the audience.
We didn't like the prequels not due the fact that they were complete shit but because we didn't want something "intellectual and complex." It's our fault.
We like The Force Awakens not because it's a very entertaining movie but because we are delusional fanboys that will eat up anything Disney shits out.
When you start making arguments like that you've lost me.
We didn't like the prequels not due the fact that they were complete shit but because we didn't want something "intellectual and complex." It's our fault.
We like The Force Awakens not because it's a very entertaining movie but because we are delusional fanboys that will eat up anything Disney shits out.
When you start making arguments like that you've lost me.
Sure, but I also don't think a movie that lacks creativity, leans almost exclusively on nostalgia and a retrodden plot is necessarily objectively "good" either.
Yes it's fun. Yes I loved it. Yes I'd watch it again, but I can't help but feel more manipulated by it rather than enjoying a good piece of art or a good plot.
The prequels had tone problems. They tried to be both more intellectual and complex but at the same time funny and great for kids and merchandise.
Personally though I think with some changes the prequels could have been really great movies. Almost less changes than it would take to erase a lot of my negatives about TFA.
Alx
Member
Haha, my brother and I had that same thought when leaving the theatre. Still liked the reveal, but the parallel is amusing indeed.
Fancy Clown
Member
The sooner people realize that Empire Strikes Back is the only really fully good Star Wars movie out there, the better off they will be.
TFA is the third best and that's just fine with me. Yeah, it's pretty silly at times, and has plenty of issues, but those aren't issues that are foreign to the series, and it happens to have a lot of smart craft behind it as well. It's not even that far removed in quality from A New Hope tbh, and it even does a lot of things better than it. But most importantly of all, it feels like Star Wars. And I think feeling like Star Wars is really the most important part to these movies, because that feeling is what people love about them.
TFA is the third best and that's just fine with me. Yeah, it's pretty silly at times, and has plenty of issues, but those aren't issues that are foreign to the series, and it happens to have a lot of smart craft behind it as well. It's not even that far removed in quality from A New Hope tbh, and it even does a lot of things better than it. But most importantly of all, it feels like Star Wars. And I think feeling like Star Wars is really the most important part to these movies, because that feeling is what people love about them.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Nothing is without flaws, just look at TFA.
I'm hoping Rian Johnson and the writers back away from borrowing so much from the OT and they give this new trilogy its own identity and personality in Episode 8.
While I personally didn't like it I can, at least, understand the reasoning for borrowing so much from ANH for Episode 7.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is basically where I'm at with it.
I wonder why Leia never received training from Luke. She's force sensitive and has some natural aptitude for it (she can feel either/both Han's death and Kylo's descent deeper into darkness).
I suppose it is an assumption that she never was trained, but nothing seen in TFA indicates otherwise.
I almost wish Lucas went with his original plan to introduce a new Skywalker sibling. Instead, he decided to make Leia his sister in ROTJ, essentially killing Yoda's mysterious "No, there is another" plotline.
I suppose it is an assumption that she never was trained, but nothing seen in TFA indicates otherwise.
I almost wish Lucas went with his original plan to introduce a new Skywalker sibling. Instead, he decided to make Leia his sister in ROTJ, essentially killing Yoda's mysterious "No, there is another" plotline.
QuantumZebra
Member
I thought about it too and realized it was because the trooper in question pretty much HAD to die. That or she would have been captured and then the whole end of the movie would be borked.
She is being saved for a big role in VIII I believe.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Basically, the prequels were shit, but at least they tried something new. They tried and failed where TFA plays it safe.
Futurevoid
Member
That's all well and good but how does that address the prequels being "intellectually ambitious"? What grand ideas were presented in the prequels that so elevate it to a status worthy of lauding over The Force Awakens? The best film in the prequel trilogy presents the central character as a conflicted Jedi one minute who wants Palpatine to stand trial and two scenes later is a child murdering Sith Lord...The fall of Anakin Skywalker - the central theme of the prequels was handled with the depth and sure handedness of a 15 year old writing fan fiction. "Moral complexity"? The prequels have the moral complexity of an fucking 80's episode of GI-JOE. Gimme a break.
The Librarian
Banned
TFA treats its female characters better than Empire, and Empire's main romance primarily consists of a man harassing a woman.
That makes TFA the superior film in my eyes.
QuantumZebra
Member
Reminds me of the people complaining about Mad Max: Fury Road because it "didn't have a story" or "was pointless" or "had no plot or meaning behind it"
just facepalms all around
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is essentially the talking point boiled down, yeah.
Fancy Clown
Member
I hope she is used as a recurring joke in the movies. Sturts around like a badass, but when shit goes down she gets chucked in a trashcan. Eternal punishment for Boba Fett fans.
OricWindstar
Member
I'm also reminded of my main issue with the Plinkett reviews. While I loved them for the most part, as soon as he starts delving into what he thinks was going on behind the scenes and where Lucas was mentally it starts becoming boring. Stop dealing with assumptions and deal with what's actually there: the films.
Same with a lot of these articles. Stop telling me what's wrong with the audiences and tell me what issues you have with what's in the movie. We can have a conversation about that; I can't really have a conversation about how the audience probably gets a boner every time the name "Vader" is mentioned.
Same with a lot of these articles. Stop telling me what's wrong with the audiences and tell me what issues you have with what's in the movie. We can have a conversation about that; I can't really have a conversation about how the audience probably gets a boner every time the name "Vader" is mentioned.
Futurevoid
Member
If that's an opinion people have, then it's their absolute right. I personally prefer safe and actually entertaining over supposedly "new" and utterly cringe worthy and painful to sit through. I can't speak for anyone else obviously but there you go.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Everybody knew that TFA was going to play it safe going in though. It almost had to play it safe. Anyone expecting it to be as groundbreaking as the original Star Wars or something like that was setting their sights way too high.
Interfectum
Member
Fancy Clown
Member
TFA is undoubtably the best Star Wars movie in terms of gender politics and racial diversity, and is awesome for it.
LegendofLex
Member
The film isn't really aiming to dramatically expand the Star Wars universe; not at this phase. Sure, it could have avoided falling back on carbon copies of the Rebellion and the Empire for its two major factions, but given how spectacularly the clones vs. droids thing failed to captivate audiences with the prequels, I can see why going back to the old status quo makes sense.
At the same time, we can see that they're not just bringing back the old Jedi and the old Sith; they're establishing new characters and Force traditions, and those characters bring their own unique motivations and experiences. Alongside those new characters, they're setting up new themes as well.
TFA is the one movie in the entire film series that dramatically de-emphasizes - and maybe even subtly critiques - the idea that Jedi/Force training and mentorship is important. I mean, the background of this movie is straight-up "Luke's efforts to train new Jedi failed spectacularly and actually drove the new villain to the dark side" and the turning point for the film had the villain literally telling the protagonist "you need a teacher," just before she immediately comes back and beats him purely through faith in the Force.
All previous films implanted in the audience an incredible reverence for training in the Force; this film acts as though such training is both unnecessary and problematic and that the Force's guidance alone is not only sufficient but superior.
This'll set the stage for more interesting dilemmas for the characters, even if the setpieces so far haven't necessarily been groundbreaking.
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
Is this movie really that safe though? Granted the moment before han's death we saw coming from miles away but I wouldn't put that as a "safe" move.
The fact that Rian is in charge of it combined with this article gives me hope
Star Wars 8 is going to be weird, promises screenwriter. 'It's not going be like anything that's ever been in Star Wars.'
The pandering and rehashes are over and done with for good hopefully, it's time to get new shit.
JumPeRJumPzZ
Banned
Agree with this.
But yeah im really not that much excited for Rian Johnson...
This Looper film was uhm.. yeah.
Why was he chosen to make EP8?
I hope EP8 turns out great too and has all the humor etc from EP7. And i bet if EP8 is too much over the top and weird people will hate all over it because it isnt star wars...
Futurevoid
Member
Pretty much. TFA has its issues. No one is denying that. Death Star 3.0 is absolutely devoid of originality and presents my biggest issues with the film. The fact that we're presented with two strong new lead characters and an strong conflicted villain that can be taken to interesting places trumps the issues I have with Starkiller Base.
OricWindstar
Member
He was chosen because he's a badass and most people enjoyed Looper quite a bit.
Check out Brick. If that doesn't get you excited...I dunno what to tell you.
It was more intellectually ambitious comparatively because it didn't rest on delivering the same product as the original trilogy. They went over the top in creating an entire new galaxy from the ground up, basically to portray the empire at its height, to portray the Jedi before the fall, and to show the political machinations that lead to everything in the original trilogy. They created a ton of new creatures and ships, etc. And I think they did try to tell a more complex story than the original trilogy, too... did they fail on some of those counts? Yes, they certainly did. The original trilogy, however, is probably the least morally complex thing in the universe. It's so black and white it's ridiculous.
TFA doesn't really create much as far as a new universe. They grabbed a lot of what they could from the original trilogy. There's really no new ships, there's barely any new cities, they don't really delve into what in fuck's name is actually happening in the universe (not even really explaining the central conflict between The New Order and The Resistance). They retread the same planet... er ... universe killing weapon plot. The prequels experimented with completely different structures and styles of story.
The Librarian
Banned
As a woman, it's reeeeeaallly hard in some ways to enjoy the OT.
B-B-Bomba!
Member
Lining up for viewing #2.
3D imax this time. My first imax I think? Hopefully worthwhile.
3D imax this time. My first imax I think? Hopefully worthwhile.
Interfectum
Member
Seems pretty obvious the formula they have for Episode 7, 8 and 9.
7 = Re-establish Star Wars into the mainstream with what made it popular to begin with (done)
8 = Get a writer/director to really switch things up and bring new ideas into what's going to be a dark middle chapter (like most trilogies have).
9 = Going off those same new ideas end with a bombastic, big-budget finish
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Looper is not the only movie Rian Johnson's ever made. It's the least of his three, in fact. The least of his three is still very ambitious, interesting looking, and contains very good performances within it. Judging him solely off Looper (likely because it's the only one with Bruce Willis in it) isn't the greatest of calls, anymore than it would be to judge Abrams solely off Super 8.
Watch The Brothers Bloom. Especially if you're wondering how Johnson handles adventure/humor/emotion.
Yeah, it's definitely a good formula if it works that way. I'm still honestly worried about the Jurassic World director doing the end cap on the series though....
TheWarrior
Banned
This is what's funny about art. I left the theater thinking it didn't feel like Star Wars at all. The most lacking thing for me was the planets. There was no creativity.
A lot of articles lose me when they tell me to forgive all of the lack of creativity because Star Wars.
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
Curious to know how many times have you guys watched it?
I'm on 3 times now
I'm on 3 times now
OricWindstar
Member
Brothers Bloom is actually probably my least favorite of his three (still love it), but it actually probably is the best to see how he might handle Star Wars. I think some people have only seen Looper and think he may take the humor out of it, but dude can set up a joke.
Interfectum
Member
Yeah same... but I think Jurassic World's issues were more writing than directing. At least Rian is still writing episode 9.
Alx
Member
Restrospectively, I think the movie did a good job introducing new characters while using old clichés of the saga. Sure we got the dark lord, sand planet, young apprentice, death star and demise of fatherly figure, but in the end Ren is nothing like Vader (and potentially much deeper), Rey is nothing like Luke, Finn is nothing like... anybody else, and even Han's death doesn't have the same meaning and consequences as Obiwan's.
I think the only cheap part was Death Star 3, because it came out of nowhere and got destroyed just as fast (when it was just supposed to stall), without adding anything to the plot.
half a moon
Banned
2. I don't see myself going a third unless my aquarium imax plays it.
Jest Chillin
Member
Late reply because I went to sleep last night.
You are definitely extrapolating on the dialogue. Snoke does not say he is terrified of Luke. They do not say, "We must go to Plan B and blow up the Senate to keep Leia from Luke" That's your interpretation of what is otherwise straight dialogue describing the multi-pronged plan of The First Order to take over the Galaxy. The attack on the Village was to find the information leading to Luke, yes. And as a result of that Attack and the subsequent open attack on Jakku during the hunt for BB8, they decide to take out The Senate before they can get involved because The First Order has technically broken it's treaty. The ultimate goal is not "cuz OMG if The Republic gets involved they'll bring the mighty Luke!!!!1one" it's because if The Republic gets involved it will be a full fledged War with an equally equipped enemy. Yes that enemy would unite with The Resistance but even The Resistance's goals are more than just Finding Luke.
What you're missing is that while the film itself centers around the aspect of finding Luke, that's not the only goal of any of the major parties involved. The Resistance ultimately wants to defeat The First Order and The First Order ultimately wants to take over The Galaxy. So while a decent chunk of what we see is steps taken to find Luke, it's not the only goal of either side and with Snoke and The First Order specifically we see actions taken that move forward other aspects of the overall plan. Destroying The Senate and The Republics armada prevents The Republic from mounting an offense against them in the future with or without Luke. The Resistance destroying Starkiller Base removes a genocidal superweapon from The First Orders arsenal, again, with or without Luke a goal is being accomplished.
As an audience, we are primarily focused on the Skywalker family. We know their overall importance in this Universe but that does not mean that the entire Galaxy wide conflict is actually centered around them.
Had Snoke been anywhere near as fearful of Luke as you claim, he wouldn't have trusted only two commanders (Hux and Luke) to deal with the problem no matter what they said. He would've brought the entire force of The First Order down upon Jakku OR Takodana and eliminated any and all chance of that information escaping his grasp. He doesn't do this because there are other concerns. Other things throughout the Galaxy that have his attention. Luke is a major priority but not the only priority and not everything he commands is about getting to Luke.
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