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[richiek]

I know, opinions and such, but the laundry lists of nitpicks people have been posting are almost more frustrating than the driveby "it sucked" type posts. (Almost.)

The pretentious critiquing that goes on just sucks all the fun out of the room. I should probably leave these threads.

This article encapsulates my feelings about TFA:

Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why

On Christmas Day, I fulfilled my duty as an American consumer and took the family to see the new "Star Wars" movie. The excursion solved a mystery: Why do so many of the reviews, even the enthusiastic ones, carry an undertone of disappointment?

The simple answer is that "Star Wars: The Force Awakens," is not very good. It's professionally made in the sense that it displays an industrial level of Quality Control. But it's depressingly unimaginative and dull in long stretches, and -- crucially -- reproduces George Lucas' original 1977 movie slavishly almost to the point of plagiarism.

It's fine for people to enjoy this film (it's not a horrible film by any stretch). But for people to ignore its many flaws and shortcomings just because it feels more like an OT film than the prequels is just intellectually dishonest.

 

[DedValve]

I can't wait for Chewbaccas Crossbow training!

Spoiler

with exclusive character Chewbaccle! The female wookie!

 

[Interfectum]

This article encapsulates my feelings about TFA:

Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why



It's fine for people to enjoy this film (it's not a horrible film by any stretch). But for people to ignore its many flaws and shortcomings just because it feels more like an OT film than than the prequels is just intellectually dishonest.

That's a horrible article, btw.

It was said of George Lucas that he originally envisioned "Star Wars" as the first of a trilogy, which became reimagined as a series of three trilogies, and ended with two. Now we're at seven films, and anyone who thinks "Star Wars" will end at nine features doesn't know their Disney. The company, you see, is not really a movie studio, but an entertainment conglomerate. For Disney, "Star Wars" will be the gift that keeps giving. You, the consumer, are the mark who keeps paying.

"Star Wars" sequels, prequels, and requels are destined to be part of moviemaking into the infinite future. One can envision Hollywood eventually turning out only two products: "Star Wars" movies and James Bond movies, each periodically "rebooted" for a new generation of customers by casting the latest new young stars in new costumes facing the same old perils and uttering the same old quips, with every other vestige of creative originality relegated to the void and forgotten.

No agenda or bias at all. lol

 

[FloatOn]

I get the impression that Snoke is very old.

perhaps even older than Palpatine and has been looming in the background all along

 

[sphagnum]

getting back to Snoke for a bit.
What made you think he's not Sith? It never even occurred to me, I mean I was sure he's a Sith Lord.

The Sith are a specific organization. Using the dark side does not make you a Sith. Following the codes of the Sith makes you a Sith, and following the Banite occultation, the chain of master-and-apprentice and bestowing the Darth title is what makes you a Sith.

If all the Jedi, including Luke, had been killed, and the new trilogy started with Rey discovering the Force, she would not be a Jedi. She still would not be a Jedi if she mastered the Force. The Jedi are a specific organization that you have to declare allegiance to.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[Daemul]

What's the canon rule about force ghosts by the way ? Can they stay around forever ? Should we expect to see Anakin, Obiwan and Yoda ghosts in the future ? Will the ghost plane become too crowded if all future jedis go there ?

The Force Priestess(well, there's 5 of them but they all used to be one person according to Filoni) who taught Yoda and Qui-Gon became a force spirit a long time back, so it seems one stays a force spirit forever, leaving room for Anakin, Obi Wan and Yoda to show up again, though whether they will is up to LucasFilm.

The vast majority of Jedi's don't become Force Spirits, Qui-Qon was the first Jedi to somewhat achieve it as far as we're aware. The trials one has to face are too much for your average Jedi to pass, even Yoda struggled.

 

[The Librarian]

This article encapsulates my feelings about TFA:

Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why



It's fine for people to enjoy this film (it's not a horrible film by any stretch). But for people to ignore its many flaws and shortcomings just because it feels more like an OT film than the prequels is just intellectually dishonest.

He's spends more than half the piece bitching about things entirely unrelated to the movie.

 

[Arthea]

The Sith are a specific organization. Using the dark side does not make you a Sith. Following the codes of the Sith makes you a Sith, and following the Banite occultation, the chain of master-and-apprentice and bestowing the Darth title is what makes you a Sith.

If all the Jedi, including Luke, had been killed, and the new trilogy started with Rey discovering the Force, she would not be a Jedi. She still would not be a Jedi if she mastered the Force. The Jedi are a specific organization that you have to declare allegiance to.

I understand that, but we don't know anything (or close to nothing) about Snoke, I don't see how he can't be a Sith, unless as previous poster already said, it's in the script that he isn't.

 

[Sylas]

This article encapsulates my feelings about TFA:

Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why



It's fine for people to enjoy this film (it's not a horrible film by any stretch). But for people to ignore its many flaws and shortcomings just because it feels more like an OT film than than the prequels is just intellectually dishonest.

Nah, I think a lot of people went in with unrealistic expectations that could simply never be met. Combine that with the fact that a lot of people only saw Star Wars when it was all available--or they'd already seen Episodes 4 and 5 when 6 came out, so they weren't left waiting for more of the story to get fleshed out. Nostalgia is a motherfucker.

Basically no movie goes, "Alright, you saw the intro. Come back in 2 years to see the next part!" these days.

Every person I've gone to see it with has come out of it going, "Oh shit that was rad." Ranging from super hardcore Star Wars fans to incredibly casual viewers.

I'd say the general nitpickiness is more symptomatic of internet culture. Reviews have to show negatives because if they don't it's not "genuine." People are trained to look at every single flaw and amplify it tenfold because that's how the internet works. Hyperbole is king.

It was said of George Lucas that he originally envisioned "Star Wars" as the first of a trilogy, which became reimagined as a series of three trilogies, and ended with two. Now we're at seven films, and anyone who thinks "Star Wars" will end at nine features doesn't know their Disney. The company, you see, is not really a movie studio, but an entertainment conglomerate. For Disney, "Star Wars" will be the gift that keeps giving. You, the consumer, are the mark who keeps paying.

"Star Wars" sequels, prequels, and requels are destined to be part of moviemaking into the infinite future. One can envision Hollywood eventually turning out only two products: "Star Wars" movies and James Bond movies, each periodically "rebooted" for a new generation of customers by casting the latest new young stars in new costumes facing the same old perils and uttering the same old quips, with every other vestige of creative originality relegated to the void and forgotten.

Jesus christ this quote. Yeah, we're the "marks" that keep paying. This dude sounds infinitely bitter that people wanna pay cash for these things that either remind them of their childhood or they think are super cool to have laying around as opposed to whatever product he's made. God forbid people like buying stuff they like, old man.

 

[Bronx-Man]

This article encapsulates my feelings about TFA:

Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why



It's fine for people to enjoy this film (it's not a horrible film by any stretch). But for people to ignore its many flaws and shortcomings just because it feels more like an OT film than the prequels is just intellectually dishonest.

I'll be the first in line to talk about the many flaws TFA has, but it's not a bad movie. It's a safe 4-quadrant blockbuster meant to remind jaded fans that Star Wars can be good again after the prequels fucked everything up. It's at the very least worth three stars.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

This article encapsulates my feelings about TFA:

Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why



It's fine for people to enjoy this film (it's not a horrible film by any stretch). But for people to ignore its many flaws and shortcomings just because it feels more like an OT film than the prequels is just intellectually dishonest.

Guy is upset that a soft reboot, tries to remind people what Star Wars is about after the prequels, while setting up the larger story arc for the planned sequels.
But ultimately complains about Disney and the money they are throwing around for the brand.

got it.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[Eidan]

This article encapsulates my feelings about TFA:

Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why



It's fine for people to enjoy this film (it's not a horrible film by any stretch). But for people to ignore its many flaws and shortcomings just because it feels more like an OT film than the prequels is just intellectually dishonest.

I read that article, and nothing the writer said convinced me that the movie "stinks". Far from it actually. The entire time it reminded of something another poster said: people need a problematic Star Wars.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

I wonder if this kind of discussion about looks would be acceptable if directed towards a female.

I find it pretty disgusting to be honest.

They'd likely been banned by now.

 

[darkazcura]

Whatever you wanna call it, people don't want to sit though that. It's not fun or cool. I think everyone was hoping for a cool Vader or Palpatine-level villain and all they got was a poor man's Hayden Christensen Anakin character and a CGI I Am Legend-looking guy with zero back story.

Speak for yourself. I find Kylo to be far more interesting than I ever thought Vader to be originally.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Nah, I think a lot of people went in with unrealistic expectations that could simply never be met. Combine that with the fact that a lot of people only saw Star Wars when it was all available--or they'd already seen Episodes 4 and 5 when 6 came out, so they weren't left waiting for more of the story to get fleshed out. Nostalgia is a motherfucker.

Basically no movie goes, "Alright, you saw the intro. Come back in 2 years to see the next part!" these days.

In the last 5 years we've had The Hobbit and Hunger Games...

 

[Arthea]

The original Star Wars is a disappointment because it borrows so much from old Samurai movies that it's basically plagiarism.

This made me chuckle, thanks

Spoiler

best jokes are best because they are basically true

 

[Sylas]

In the last 5 years we've had The Hobbit and Hunger Games...

Oh whoops, I totally forgot about those movies.

Edit: Granted, both of those movies also were drawing from some level of source material so if you really wanted to know what was likely to happen you could go read the short-ass books that they were based off of.

 

[whiterabbit]

I saw the movie twice and I got to say, I approve of the thread title. When he said, "We'll use the force" and Han replied "That's not how the force works," I laughed out loud!

 

[Chained Prometheus]

This article encapsulates my feelings about TFA:

Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why



It's fine for people to enjoy this film (it's not a horrible film by any stretch). But for people to ignore its many flaws and shortcomings just because it feels more like an OT film than the prequels is just intellectually dishonest.

Nah, I recognize that The Force Awakens has its flaws. However, I also believe that the only 'perfect' film in the franchise so far is The Empire Strikes Back. I personally rank TFA higher than the other two OT films because I prefer the new characters and sense of drama in it than in A New Hope or Return of the Jedi.

 

[sphagnum]

I understand that, but we don't know anything (or close to nothing) about Snoke, I don't see how he can't be a Sith, unless as previous poster already said, it's in the script that he isn't.

He can't be a Sith because the Sith are dead. Sidious and Vader were the last master-apprentice pair. Both died and that ended the cult.

But yeah, JJ has also specified that neither Snoke nor Kylo are Sith as well.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Personally, I can't take a Dark Lord of the Sith (or whatever he is, lord of something) serious with a name like Snoke.

But that's just me.

 

[The Lamonster]

I'd say the general nitpickiness is more symptomatic of internet culture. Reviews have to show negatives because if they don't it's not "genuine." People are trained to look at every single flaw and amplify it tenfold because that's how the internet works. Hyperbole is king.

I feel the opposite, actually:

I'd say the general praise is more symptomatic of internet culture. Reviews have to show buzz because if they don't it's not "genuine." People are trained to look at every difference from the prequels and similarity to the OT and amplify it tenfold because that's how the internet works. Hyperbole is king.

 

[Sylas]

Personally, I can't take a Dark Lord of the Sith serious with a name like Snoke.

But that's just me.

Star Wars baddies have always had powerfully bad names.

Vader literally means Father.

Palpatine was SIDIOUS (and his first name was Sheev).

There were baddies named Darth BANE and Darth PLAGUEIS. It's always been pretty silly.

I feel the opposite, actually:

Agree to disagree, then. I will say that I think it's incredibly unfortunate that you think people thoroughly enjoying something is a product of hyperbole as opposed to people being really into something they like, however. That's a powerful level of cynicism.

 

[Bronx-Man]

The original Star Wars is a disappointment because it borrows so much from old Samurai movies that it's basically plagiarism.

This joke would work if George Lucas made a sequel to the Hidden Fortress that had the exact same plot as the Hidden Fortress, only he decided to change Rokurota & Yuki's names to make it feel different.

 

[Sou Da]

Apparently TRAITOR!Trooper is a meme.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Star Wars baddies have always had powerfully bad names.

Vader literally means Father.

Palpatine was SIDIOUS (and his first name was Sheev).

There were baddies named Darth BANE and Darth PLAGUEIS. It's always been pretty silly.


Agree to disagree, then. I will say that I think it's incredibly unfortunate that you think people thoroughly enjoying something is a product of hyperbole as opposed to people being really into something they like, however. That's a powerful level of cynicism.

Vader was named long before he was Luke's dad. It was supposed to be derived from inVADER.

But yes, star wars has never been subtle about bad guy names. I don't have a problem with it. It ads to the charm, the simple good vs evil narrative. Anytime SW tries to be more complex it starts to falter somewhat (example, the PT and 99% of the old EU)

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Apparently TRAITOR!Trooper is a meme.

 

[Ushojax]

This joke would work if George Lucas made a sequel to the Hidden Fortress that had the exact same plot as the Hidden Fortress, only he decided to change Rokurota & Yuki's names to make it feel different.

Yeah, it's not like George made a prequel where a talented young pilot from Tatooine gets whisked away on an adventure with a wise old Jedi, a weird alien and a woman from a royal family, which ends with him blowing up a giant space station from the inside. Not at all.

 

[The Lamonster]

SNOKE obviously comes from "snot choke"


incredible name wow so devious

 

[Arthea]

He can't be a Sith because the Sith are dead. Sidious and Vader were the last master-apprentice pair. Both died and that ended the cult.

But yeah, JJ has also specified that neither Snoke nor Kylo are Sith as well.

where I have heard it before, I wonder

Spoiler

OK, no Siths, next logical step would be no Jedi either.

Apparently TRAITOR!Trooper is a meme.

of course it is already

 

[DragonSworne]

I love how in one scene Kylo retroactively makes Vader far more interesting than Vader truly was. The mask scene where Kylo shows nostalgic admiration for Vader makes the viewers see Vader like he does, instead of the bland, low energy masked dude who lacks motive for his actions.

Kylo was a great villain.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Yeah, it's not like George made a prequel where a talented young pilot from Tatooine gets whisked away on an adventure with a wise old Jedi, a weird alien and a woman from a royal family, which ends with him blowing up a giant space station from the inside. Not at all.

Yep.
That was the main reason why he wanted to make the PT.

That story had to be told.

something something Poetry

 

[Sylas]

where I have heard it before, I wonder

Spoiler

OK, no Siths, next logical step would be no Jedi either.

Not necessarily. These two things were actually pretty disparate for a lot of the EU and there's no reason to think they won't follow that same path. Sith are a very specific order and there were only supposed to be 2 at any given time.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Yeah, it's not like George made a prequel where a talented young pilot from Tatooine gets whisked away on an adventure with a wise old Jedi, a weird alien and a woman from a royal family, which ends with him blowing up a giant space station from the inside. Not at all.

Those movies never happened. Nope nope nope, that doesn't exist.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Yeah, it's not like George made a prequel where a talented young pilot from Tatooine gets whisked away on an adventure with a wise old Jedi, a weird alien and a woman from a royal family, which ends with him blowing up a giant space station from the inside. Not at all.

TFA was WAAAAAY closer to ANH than TPM was. I don't think this can even be disputed

 

[The Lamonster]

TFA was WAAAAAY closer to ANH than TPM was. I don't think this can even be disputed

exactly. Just one example but TPM does not have a cantina-esque scene and ANH does not have a pod race-esque scene.

TFA has a desert planet, a cantina, a death star etc etc etc

 

[Boke1879]

exactly. Just one example but TPM does not have a cantina-esque scene and ANH does not have a pod race-esque scene.

TFA has a desert planet, a cantina, a death star etc etc etc

Yet AOTC has a scene that's almost mimics the cantina one

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

I understand that, but we don't know anything (or close to nothing) about Snoke, I don't see how he can't be a Sith, unless as previous poster already said, it's in the script that he isn't.

On the other hand, I never once thought he was a Sith, so I guess its a matter of perspective. As I mentioned in my previous post, I figured that the Sith pretty much died out with Vader and Palpatine. Unless the rumors that Snoke is Darth Plagius are true, although I don't see any reason to necessarily believe that.

I know it was posted in one of the earlier threads that JJ has said that Snoke has been a round a long time. Has seen the Republic come and go, watched the rise of the Empire, and waited in the background for his time. Also, as was already stated, you don't need to be a Jedi or Sith to use the Force.

A little context on Snoke would have been nice though.

 

[The Librarian]

exactly. Just one example but TPM does not have a cantina-esque scene and ANH does not have a pod race-esque scene.

TFA has a desert planet, a cantina, a death star etc etc etc

TFA treats its female characters better than any Star Wars film to date.

Which, to me, makes it the best movie.

 

[The Lamonster]

Yet AOTC has a scene that's almost mimics the cantina one

I need to go home and rethink my life...

but seriously, I wasn't trying to argue that the prequels didn't rip anything off from the OT, just that none of them were blatant clones like TFA is to ANH.

 

[Kor of Memory]

exactly. Just one example but TPM does not have a cantina-esque scene and ANH does not have a pod race-esque scene.

TFA has a desert planet, a cantina, a death star etc etc etc

ANH's second act was trying to escape the death star with Leia.
TPM's second act was entirely pod racing.
TFA's second act was mostly Maz's Castle.

The three are all very different, really.

ANH's final act is the Trench Run
TPM's final act is a mess of Gungans v Droids, Capturing the Viceroy, Dueling Darth Maul, and Blowing up the Droid Hub Ship.
TFA's final act is a parrallel of Rey/Finn v Kylo and x-wings blowing up the thermal oscillator.

 

[DragonSworne]

exactly. Just one example but TPM does not have a cantina-esque scene and ANH does not have a pod race-esque scene.

TFA has a desert planet, a cantina, a death star etc etc etc

Well, half of TPM was a pod race scene...

 

[Tomasoares]

TFA is far from being just a clone of ANH. It takes a lot from it, but it has also a lot of his own stuff too. Still, I can understand why it annoys some people though lol

 

[The Lamonster]

Well, half of TPM was a pod race scene...

I'll take it. Best thing about that movie, IMO (besides Ewan McGregor).

 

[DragonSworne]

People who say TFA is rip off ANH either haven't seen ANH recently or didn't pay attention to TFA.

I guess all Batman movies are just a rip off the first Batman. Nolan is a hack.

 

[LegendofLex]

This article encapsulates my feelings about TFA:

Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why

It's fine for people to enjoy this film (it's not a horrible film by any stretch). But for people to ignore its many flaws and shortcomings just because it feels more like an OT film than the prequels is just intellectually dishonest.

I'm pretty open about its flaws. The second act of the movie has some weird immersion-breaking pacing issues, some of the plot-advancing moments like R2 waking up suddenly and having the rest of the map already feel very deus ex machina, and of course some of the callbacks to the original film (like the trench run) felt overly gratuitous.

But beneath those flaws, the film's got a very ambitious project - reestablish the themes of Star Wars in a way that's appropriate a new generation - and it manages to pull off that project in a way that I thought surpassed even the original film, when you examine how it develops its characters and expresses its themes using mood and visuals (those elements that are unique to film) and not spoken exposition.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

TFA is far from being just a clone of ANH. It takes a lot from it, but it has also a lot of his own stuff too. Still, I can understand why it annoys some people though lol

It takes a lot from all the OT movies, the whole flying through the Star Destroyer bit was a straight callback to RotJ and the Falcon/Deathstar sequence.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

I really hope they recast Kylo Ren in the next two movies. The casting for the rest of the characters is so spot on, so it makes it stand out even more how they botched the villain. Adam Driver's acting is Hayden Christensen level bad, but at least Hayden had good looks to soften the blow a bit. It's not a good sign when people in the theater giggle when Ren pulls off his mask for the first time. Yikes.

Worst casting decision since Mark Ruffalo took over as the Hulk.

I think you'll find you're in the minority here. Adam Driver did a super job. No one I know of is complaining about his acting.

I do wish however that he didn't take his helmet off in front of Rey. The reveal would have been better in front of Han.