Support NeoGAF

[heliosRAzi]

2 of those are continuity errors and the other 2 are just fleshing out what's in the movie.

But fine-toothed comb, though!

What's being fleshed out? Poe and Rey? Do they even interact in the movie? And we're led to believe that the Force and Jedi are a myth.

And looking into it more, I'm leaning into the Kylo doesn't know Rey camp. He would've said something about her when they first meet on Takodana, or even when has her prisoner on the ship. The "It IS you" from the novel is after she uses the Force on the lightsaber, which feels more like it is about the Awakening.

 

[Lifejumper]

What poe and rey had interaction in the book?

 

[QuantumZebra]

But fine-toothed comb, though!

What's being fleshed out? Poe and Rey? Do they even interact in the movie? And we're led to believe that the Force and Jedi are a myth.

And looking into it more, I'm leaning into the Kylo doesn't know Rey camp. He would've said something about her when they first meet on Takodana, or even when has her prisoner on the ship. The "It IS you" from the novel is after she uses the Force on the lightsaber, which feels more like it is about the Awakening.

I misread the Poe and Rey part, and that isn't romance at all, she just highlights him being handsome ffs.

And he didn't say anything till she displayed her power over Lukes saber...proving she was a Skywalker

What poe and rey had interaction in the book?

She notes him being handsome and Helios decided that was romance idk

 

[heliosRAzi]

I misread the Poe and Rey part, and that isn't romance at all, she just highlights him being handsome ffs.

That's practically a marriage proposal in movies. Does she remark on anyone else's handsomeness? Even so, they don't meet each other in the movie. They don't interact at all.

And he didn't say anything till she displayed her power over Lukes saber...proving she was a Skywalker

The Force doesn't work that way.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Wat, you can only force pull sabers that are part of your lineage?

I just took it as she was very strong with the light side and Ren underestimated her.

 

[QuantumZebra]

That's practically a marriage proposal in movies. Does she remark on anyone else's handsomeness? Even so, they don't meet each other in the movie. They don't interact at all.



The Force doesn't work that way.

Well its not a marriage proposal, sorry lol.

The Force definitely works that way. The lightsaber triggered Luke's memories and went to her when she called out to it. Thats why Kylo said what he did.

Wat, you can only force pull sabers that are part of your lineage?

I just took it as she was very strong with the light side and Ren underestimated her.

Then there's no point in him saying "It is you"

 

[heliosRAzi]

Well its not a marriage proposal, sorry lol.

Does she talk about anyone else's handsomeness? If not, then she has the hots for Poe.

The Force definitely works that way. The lightsaber triggered Luke's memories and went to her when she called out to it. Thats why Kylo said what he did.

I don't think it proves that she is a Skywalker. It proves that she is meant to have that lightsaber.

Then there's no point in him saying "It is you"

Only in the book, which isn't consistent with the movie. And even so, it could be regarding the Awakening that has been happening. If he knew Rey, he would've said something on Takodano or during his interrogation.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Does she talk about anyone else's handsomeness? If not, then she has the hots for Poe.




Only in the book, which isn't consistent with the movie. And even so, it could be regarding the Awakening that has been happening. If he knew Rey, he would've said something on Takodano or during his interrogation.

Who isn't attracted to Poe???

And I said this before, but again: Kylo doesn't believe it's his long lost cousin until she overpowers him to take the saber.

Kathleen Kennedy explicitly said the main movies were about the Skywalkers, and it is rooted in Arthurian legend.

She pulled the sword in the stone because she was the stronger Skywalker. It's about as thematic and profound as possible.

 

[heliosRAzi]

And I said this before, but again: Kylo doesn't believe it's his long lost cousin

That hasn't been proven.

Kathleen Kennedy explicitly said the main movies were about the Skywalkers, and it is rooted in Arthurian legend.

It's a reference to Kylo.

 

[StopMakingSense]

I dunno, "REY, I AM YOUR COUSIN" just doesn't have the same sort of dramatic flair.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I dunno, "REY, I AM YOUR COUSIN" just doesn't have the same sort of dramatic flair.

REY, I AM YOUR RELATIVE!

 

[QuantumZebra]

That hasn't been proven.


It's a reference to Kylo.

Neither has what you just said been proven, lol.

I mean this isn't new stuff that I'm talking about here... there's about 15 billion articles explaining all the hints to her being Luke's daughter.

It's cool if you doubt those, but there's not much else that would really make sense given said hints.

 

[Toxi]

I dunno, "REY, I AM YOUR COUSIN" just doesn't have the same sort of dramatic flair.

No, it goes like this.

"Han Solo never told you what happened to your cousin."

"He told me enough. He told me you killed him."

"No. I am your cousin."

*Cue somber version of Imperial March*

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

No, it goes like this.

"Han Solo never told you what happened to your cousin."

"He told me enough. He told me you killed him."

"No. I am your cousin."

*Cue somber version of Imperial March*

They should do this dialogue so that everyone will think they know whats coming and then after "He told me you killed him" he could just say "Correct. I did kill him".

 

[GhaleonEB]

REY, I AM YOUR RELATIVE!

"I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate."

 

[Apt101]

"I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate."

I can see your schwartz is as big as mine.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Then there's no point in him saying "It is you"

He didn't say that in the movie. And if he did. With how everything else was laid out, I would take it he would be referencing the awakening he was talking about with Snoke. They were talking about how they felt it. Then at that moment, he realized it was her for sure, she was the awakening they felt.

 

[QuantumZebra]

He didn't say that in the movie. And if he did. With how everything else was laid out, I would take it he would be referencing the awakening he was talking about with Snoke. They were talking about how they felt it. Then at that moment, he realized it was her for sure, she was the awakening they felt.

But then that discounts the entire Arthurian aspect of the sword in the stone and her being the true Skywalker heir. It requires throwing out a ton of the symbolism in the movie and book for her to be anything other than Luke's daughter.

 

[prag16]

But then that discounts the entire Arthurian aspect of the sword in the stone and her being the true Skywalker heir. It requires throwing out a ton of the symbolism in the movie and book for her to be anything other than Luke's daughter.

Yep. The strong desire from many here for her to be a rando is really odd. It seems to be making it into cognitive dissonance territory in some cases. So many of the little details (and even major plot points) would make a lot less sense if she did turn out to be a random.

I've said this before, but the only argument against at this point that to me has any merit is, "Too obvious."

All the other "reasoning" is really just conjecture.

 

[Vyer]

off the top of my head, IIRC Obi pulls Qui Gon's saber to him, so I don't really know of any previous support for the 'you have to be of the same lineage to pull a lightsaber' idea.

Yep. The strong desire from many here for her to be a rando is really odd. It seems to be making it into cognitive dissonance territory in some cases. So many of the little details (and even major plot points) would make a lot less sense if she did turn out to be a random.

I've said this before, but the only argument against at this point that to me has any merit is, "Too obvious."

All the other "reasoning" is really just conjecture.

I think it's less about her being a Skywalker than it is Kylo knowing who she is, if I'm following the current conversation correctly.

 

[Snake]

Yep. The strong desire from many here for her to be a rando is really odd. It seems to be making it into cognitive dissonance territory in some cases. So many of the little details (and even major plot points) would make a lot less sense if she did turn out to be a random.

I've said this before, but the only argument against at this point that to me has any merit is, "Too obvious."

All the other "reasoning" is really just conjecture.

I don't need Rey to not be Luke's daughter, but I do object to the idea that she doesn't make sense as a character if she isn't Luke's kid.

It really doesn't matter either way, because she's already the inheritor of the Skywalker legacy. That's one of the clearest and most important ideas the film is trying convey about the future of the saga.

At the end of the film, Kylo Ren, the new "son of Skywalker," attempts to claim one of the starkest symbols of his forebears. He reaches out with the force to grasp Luke's lightsaber and instead it goes to Rey. That's the whole ballgame right there. Spiritually, and from a narrative standpoint, the torch has been passed. The only question remaining is whether Kylo Ren was outdone by another literal Skywalker, or someone who was simply more worthy of the Skywalker mantle than him.

 

[Paganmoon]

There is indeed symbolism that Rey is Luke's daughter, the X-wing pilot doll, the x-wing helmet, the lightsaber calling to her. And it's been my understanding that she is Luke's daughter, from the first time I saw the movie.

One thing that really has me questioning it is thought, Rey was old enough when she was left on Jakku to know who the hell her dad was. Your dad being Luke fucking Skywalker isn't something you forget, is it?

 

[Disgraced]

Yep. The strong desire from many here for her to be a rando is really odd. It seems to be making it into cognitive dissonance territory in some cases. So many of the little details (and even major plot points) would make a lot less sense if she did turn out to be a random.

I've said this before, but the only argument against at this point that to me has any merit is, "Too obvious."

All the other "reasoning" is really just conjecture.

Is the Force a nepotistic asshole? No, the Force surrounds and binds everyone. If the Skywalker bloodline is necessary to be the central hero what depressing, bullshit subtext.

 

[GhaleonEB]

There is indeed symbolism that Rey is Luke's daughter, the X-wing pilot doll, the x-wing helmet, the lightsaber calling to her. And it's been my understanding that she is Luke's daughter, from the first time I saw the movie.

One thing that really has me questioning it is thought, Rey was old enough when she was left on Jakku to know who the hell her dad was. Your dad being Luke fucking Skywalker isn't something you forget, is it?

I think that's one of several clues that he's not her dad.

She thinks he's a myth. She was kind of a Resistance fangirl, thus geeking out at Finn, the helmet, etc. The biggest hint is Maz telling Rey that the people who left her on Jakku are not coming back...but Luke one day might. Could be a ruse, but that felt like her straight up telling Rey that Luke is not her father.

 

[heliosRAzi]

off the top of my head, IIRC Obi pulls Qui Gon's saber to him, so I don't really know of any previous support for the 'you have to be of the same lineage to pull a lightsaber' idea.

That just means Qui Gon is Obis cousin or something.

If Rey is Lukes daughter, do Han and Leia know? If not, why didn't Luke tell them and how the hell did he keep that a secret? If they do know, why were they willing to let her stay on the Starkiller?

 

[TedMilk]

She's Luke's daughter. When she was born he left her with some relatives or some such; ergo, she doesn't know she's his daughter.

 

[Paganmoon]

She's Luke's daughter. When she was born he left her with some relatives or some such; ergo, she doesn't know she's his daughter.

And those relatives then said "fuckiit, lets drop her on Jakku"?

On my third viewing, I went with my dad. First thing he said as we were leaving the theater was "so Rey is Luke's daughter right?". So it's so obviously hinted at, but some of it doesn't make sense, so there really has to be some more to the backstory, and hopefully we get a flashback sequence at the start of Episode VIII that sheds some light to it.

Her just being some random person would be quite a let down.

 

[TedMilk]

Maybe they contacted him when stormtroopers started sniffing around and he instructed them to leave her there? There can be many explanations for such a thing.

 

[TedMilk]

OR maybe he used a different name as her father? At the end of EP7 is when she realises her father is the legendary Luke Skywalker?

See? It's easy!

 

[heliosRAzi]

So basically Luke abandons his daughter

 

[TedMilk]

Yeah, because the bad guys are all over him and he can't keep her safe.

 

[MarkMclovin]

I dont see what you guys are seeing. I dont think its filmed or shown that Ren knows her. He force chokes dude cause its the last straw of fuckups and a shitty day, not cause he knows her specifically. I never got this impression from multiple viewings that he knew her.

The way I took in the scene was that it was a girl that managed to get away. A mere girl. Got away from a trained imperial army.

The force choke was a "how the fuck did you let a mere girl get away" and not a "You let THE girl I've known about for so long, get away".

And the "So, it is her" quote I'm taking as it's her that is the awakening and not the girl he's looking for.

 

[MarkMclovin]

So basically Luke abandons his daughter

Saves her by doing so? Probably.

Maybe Luke saw into the future, knowing she would eventually become a force user?

 

[MarkMclovin]

Your dad being Luke fucking Skywalker isn't something you forget, is it?

Memory rub.

 

[prag16]

Her just being some random person would be quite a let down.

That's what I'm saying. After the hints and buildup, her being a random would feel like tons of blueballs only for a Dark Helmet-esque reveal.

It's obviously on the table still that she's NOT his daughter. But if there's not at least some kind of strong connection and history at the minimum, that would be very baffling. So given that, not sure why the reaction from some to the idea that she may be his daughter is so visceral.

That likely connection and history is why this discussion ties in with whether or not Kylo knows who she is.

The force choke was a "how the fuck did you let a mere girl get away" and not a "You let THE girl I've known about for so long, get away".

This is a popular theory it seems. And while it's plausible of course, it definitely seems like a bigger stretch than the "he knows something" theory.

Anecdotally, all the casual Star Wars fans I know assumed the latter, and also assumed Rey must be Luke's daughter.

While some hardcore fans seem to want her to be a random, the revelation that she's a random girl would probably be jarring to the masses in some ways.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I want her to be random because I have Skywalker fatigue. I want someone else without that crazy lineage behind her. I want a fresh slate.

 

[WedgeX]

I think that's one of several clues that he's not her dad.

She thinks he's a myth. She was kind of a Resistance fangirl, thus geeking out at Finn, the helmet, etc. The biggest hint is Maz telling Rey that the people who left her on Jakku are not coming back...but Luke one day might. Could be a ruse, but that felt like her straight up telling Rey that Luke is not her father.

Still pulling for her to be an Antilles.

 

[Palpable]

1. Of all the bad news he just got - he doesn't force choke the dude until he hears "... there was a girl with them" - THAT kind of reaction wasn't warranted until that statement? Way too impactful to be coincidence.

2. Any strong force-user is going to be surprised when someone resists them - especially a girl who is clearly untrained in the Force.

3a. I think its safe to assume that *if* Kylo knew of Rey, and she was his cousin, he has likely been looking for her ever since the Temple slaughter. Just like he says to Rey at the end, he wants someone to train with him (to take on Snoke (just like all dark-side users try to usurp their masters)).

3b. So the mention of an unknown girl assisting in the escape of this droid with a map to Luke on it is something that to Kylo is likely to immediately make him go "WTF it better not be her"

That's a Sith thing, not a dark side thing. They made it pretty clear that Kylo isn't really a Sith.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

The novel is not canon. Lucasfilm specifically explained that the novelizations of the films are only canon in the parts that don't contradict the films.

 

[Fliesen]

The novel is not canon. Lucasfilm specifically explained that the novelizations of the films are only canon in the parts that don't contradict the films.

especially when it's 2 version of a scene (one where Kylo Ren says a certain line, and one where he doesn't) - the movie definitely overrules the novel.

In official canon, that line has not been spoken.

Make of that what you will - the intent / meaning behind that line could still make its way into Episode VIII, but it might as well not. That line should be treated as something that we can only consider canon in retrospect.

 

[prag16]

especially when it's 2 version of a scene (one where Kylo Ren says a certain line, and one where he doesn't) - the movie definitely overrules the novel.

In official canon, that line has not been spoken.

Make of that what you will - the intent / meaning behind that line could still make its way into Episode VIII, but it might as well not. That line should be treated as something that we can only consider canon in retrospect.

An additional line doesn't directly contradict the film. By that logic, the scenes with Leia that happen in the novel prior to her reveal in the movie "contradict" the movie too. By your logic, the novel is actually NON canon, really. Since you can't glean ANYTHING from it if it didn't explicitly happen in the movie. I don't think that was the intent behind that Lucasfilm comment.

An actual example for what they're talking about is the pseudoscience behind Starkiller. Totally different in the novel (and marginally less stupid), but clearly the movie version is canon.

 

[Surfinn]

The novel is not canon. Lucasfilm specifically explained that the novelizations of the films are only canon in the parts that don't contradict the films.

Wow do you have a link to this statement? First I've heard of it. /Han

Plus that quote doesn't necessarily contradict anything.. yet. If LF really did say that, I'm surprised because there's a LOT of grey area there.

 

[Interfectum]

Wow do you have a link to this statement? First I've heard of it. /Han

Plus that quote doesn't necessarily contradict anything.. yet. If LF really did say that, I'm surprised because there's a LOT of grey area there.

I don't have a link but isn't it generally accepted that the only true canon are the movies (and maybe the TV shows)? At any time the movies can contradict or change anything about canon as they see fit and it's up to the comics, novels, etc to adhere to that.

 

[FyreWulff]

Every time they've brought it up, it's Movies, Rebels, the upcoming films, and any new non-Legends media.

Novelizations are a weird spot since they're based off earlier script drafts. So mechanically, it's near impossible for them to be truly canon. tbh, having worked at a library, I've always thought the movie novelization market was weird...

 

[Inferno313]

I don't have a link but isn't it generally accepted that the only true canon are the movies (and maybe the TV shows)? At any time the movies can contradict or change anything about canon as they see fit and it's up to the comics, novels, etc to adhere to that.

No. I believe that Lucasfilm said with this new generation of canon that they wanted to avoid the previous "levels of canon."

Theoretically, all books, comics, games, films, and TV shows are equally canon now.

 

[LevelNth]

Another really interesting aspect that Johnson will have to reconcile in VIII and IX is the massive blows both the Republic and the First Order took in TFA. The Republic was essentially decimated, losing near their entire fleet and the main homeworlds, whereas the First Order appeared to have devoted most of their time creating Starkiller base, which they also lost.

It should make the remaining adventures much more intimate and less grand scale, and really predominately about Luke vs. Snoke, and Rey vs. Ren.

 

[Inferno313]

Another really interesting aspect that Johnson will have to reconcile in VIII and IX is the massive blows both the Republic and the First Order took in TFA. The Republic was essentially decimated, losing near their entire fleet and the main homeworlds, whereas the First Order appeared to have devoted most of their time creating Starkiller base, which they also lost.

It should make the remaining adventures much more intimate and less grand scale, and really predominately about Luke vs. Snoke, and Rey vs. Ren.

Well, what effectively happened is that a terrorist organization just perpetrated a MASSIVE attack on the center of the Galaxy. I don't see how the Republic could react in any way other than assembling a massive fleet and going HAM on The First Order.

I could see VIII being intimate and less of a grand scale, with the republic gearing up in the background. Meanwhile, IX being all-out warfare as the Republic makes a massive push back on The First Order.

 

[LegendofLex]

Another really interesting aspect that Johnson will have to reconcile in VIII and IX is the massive blows both the Republic and the First Order took in TFA. The Republic was essentially decimated, losing near their entire fleet and the main homeworlds, whereas the First Order appeared to have devoted most of their time creating Starkiller base, which they also lost.

The way I see it is:

- The Resistance lost a handful of X-Wings and the support of the Republic fleet, but still probably have other forces/fleets under their command scattered throughout the galaxy.

- The First Order lost Starkiller Base but didn't lose a single capital ship at any point during the film.

I dunno that there's a lot to really establish for the next one, outside of how the remnants of the New Republic are going to react to their capitol world being destroyed.

 

[LevelNth]

Well, what effectively happened is that a terrorist organization just perpetrated a MASSIVE attack on the center of the Galaxy. I don't see how the Republic could react in any way other than assembling a massive fleet and going HAM on The First Order.

I could see VIII being intimate and less of a grand scale, with the republic gearing up in the background. Meanwhile, IX being all-out warfare as the Republic makes a massive push back on The First Order.

That's a good point, isn't it intimated at the beginning of TFA that the Republic doesn't necessarily take the First Order all that seriously?

Lends even more credence to the notion that they predominately toiled away on Starkiller without causing too much overt commotion in the galaxy.

 

[LegendofLex]

That's a good point, isn't it intimated at the beginning of TFA that the Republic doesn't necessarily take the First Order all that seriously?

It's explained in other material that the Republic is maintaining an official posture of nonaggression against the First Order in order to preserve the terms of a treaty between the two sides. (But they're secretly funding the Resistance on the side.)