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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

Late reply because I went to sleep last night.

You are definitely extrapolating on the dialogue. Snoke does not say he is terrified of Luke. They do not say, "We must go to Plan B and blow up the Senate to keep Leia from Luke" That's your interpretation of what is otherwise straight dialogue describing the multi-pronged plan of The First Order to take over the Galaxy. The attack on the Village was to find the information leading to Luke, yes. And as a result of that Attack and the subsequent open attack on Jakku during the hunt for BB8, they decide to take out The Senate before they can get involved because The First Order has technically broken it's treaty. The ultimate goal is not "cuz OMG if The Republic gets involved they'll bring the mighty Luke!!!!1one" it's because if The Republic gets involved it will be a full fledged War with an equally equipped enemy. Yes that enemy would unite with The Resistance but even The Resistance's goals are more than just Finding Luke.

What you're missing is that while the film itself centers around the aspect of finding Luke, that's not the only goal of any of the major parties involved. The Resistance ultimately wants to defeat The First Order and The First Order ultimately wants to take over The Galaxy. So while a decent chunk of what we see is steps taken to find Luke, it's not the only goal of either side and with Snoke and The First Order specifically we see actions taken that move forward other aspects of the overall plan. Destroying The Senate and The Republics armada prevents The Republic from mounting an offense against them in the future with or without Luke. The Resistance destroying Starkiller Base removes a genocidal superweapon from The First Orders arsenal, again, with or without Luke a goal is being accomplished.

As an audience, we are primarily focused on the Skywalker family. We know their overall importance in this Universe but that does not mean that the entire Galaxy wide conflict is actually centered around them.

Had Snoke been anywhere near as fearful of Luke as you claim, he wouldn't have trusted only two commanders (Hux and Luke) to deal with the problem no matter what they said. He would've brought the entire force of The First Order down upon Jakku OR Takodana and eliminated any and all chance of that information escaping his grasp. He doesn't do this because there are other concerns. Other things throughout the Galaxy that have his attention. Luke is a major priority but not the only priority and not everything he commands is about getting to Luke.


I'm extrapolating nothing.

Here's how the first exposition chamber scene goes.

1) Just before BB-8 escapes with Rey and co on the Falcon
2) Chamber scene: Hux or Ren says the android escaped and is surely on its way to the Resistance.
3)Snoke says then we must change our strategy and says something about how the new Jedi must not be allowed to rise
4) Hux says the weapon is ready. Snoke says good. Hux says by taking out the Republic Leia will have no allies and thst they will easily stop her before thry find Luke
5) Hux leaves and Snoke and Ren talk about feeling the force awakening.
6) Nazi speech and Republic Senate goes boom



Next chamber scene

1) Rey is captured, Ren orders them not to worry about BB-8 anymore
2) Rey escapes
3) Second chamber scene
4) Ren tells Snoke she escaped.
5)Hux says Ren ordered them not to get the froid because the girl was supposed to be enough so now surely the droid is in the hands of the Resistance.
6) Snoke orders they target Leia's base with the weapon and destroy them before they can get to Skywalker.
7) Rest of movie happens

This is what happened in this movie. I didn't extrapolate anything. Snoke considers preventing the Resistance from finding Luke to be their top priority and every decision he makes in this movie itself is with that goal in mind. This is explicitly stared at least twice in frankly heavy handed exposition. I don't understand how you missed it.

Had they got that droid in Jakku they would not have blown up the Senate.
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
Star Wars is a dumb fantasy movie and fantasy has a pretty established trope of history constantly repeating itself in an eternal struggle that us always familiar but never exactly the same.

I like that trope -- so Starkiller was fine by me.
 

notBald

Member
I just saw it. My rating: Bad fanfiction quality. Disney dropped the ball.

Of the three reboots this year (Jurassic World, Terminator and this), it's the worst. Still worth seeing for the nostalgia though, but the plot is just a pile of coincidences.

Favorite part: Luke just standing there, in the middle of nowhere, complete with a map to his location. X marks the spot.
 
Star Wars is a dumb fantasy movie and fantasy has a pretty established trope of history constantly repeating itself in an eternal struggle that us always familiar but never exactly the same.

I like that trope -- so Starkiller was fine by me.

At this point the only thing I don't really care for about Starkiller is that it was named Starkiller.

Seems very uninspried. Especially since the regular flag ships are Star Destroyers.
 
I just saw it. My rating: Bad fanfiction quality. Disney dropped the ball.

Of the three reboots this year (Jurassic World, Terminator and this), it's the worst. Still worth seeing for the nostalgia though, but the plot is just a pile of coincidences.

Favorite part: Luke just standing there, in the middle of nowhere, complete with a map to his location. X marks the spot.

Oh come now.
 

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
At this point the only thing I don't really care for about Starkiller is that it was named Starkiller.

Seems very uninspried. Especially since the regular flag ships are Star Destroyers.

Starkiller was Luke's original surname from the early drafts of Star Wars.
 
Had they got that droid in Jakku they would not have blown up the Senate.

That friggin TRAITOR! ruined all their plans.

I loved it. I hated their characters. C-3PO is annoying as hell, and for all the talk of Rey being a Mary Sue, R2-D2 is the biggest Mary Sue in the Star Wars universe, conveniently pulling abilities out of his ass and winning every fight he's ever been in.

He got his ass kicked by Jawas and during the Death Star trench run in ANH.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
The Star Destroyer scene is why Force Unleashed is the best things to come out of the franchise.

Have you actually played that section of the game. It's an abomination.

I say this as a fan of the game.
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
*I don't know if that's the case but Yoshichan(?) is going to report back on this after their next screening.
Yes! Confirmed, TR-8R is the only person on screen who wields the weapon!
 
I just saw it. My rating: Bad fanfiction quality. Disney dropped the ball.

Of the three reboots this year (Jurassic World, Terminator and this), it's the worst. Still worth seeing for the nostalgia though, but the plot is just a pile of coincidences.

Favorite part: Luke just standing there, in the middle of nowhere, complete with a map to his location. X marks the spot.

Heheheheh, daaaaaaamn you silly
 
You don't think it would be just another rehash of "Iam your father" mean that is boring writing and no surprises there

Sure it might be, depending on how it's handled.

I'm just saying that's clearly the direction, they're going in, based off of this movie and comments made in the past (I.E. Kathleen Kennedy saying that the mainline movies are the stories of the Skywalkers). Rey's not a nobody
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
I just saw it. My rating: Bad fanfiction quality. Disney dropped the ball.

Of the three reboots this year (Jurassic World, Terminator and this), it's the worst. Still worth seeing for the nostalgia though, but the plot is just a pile of coincidences.

Favorite part: Luke just standing there, in the middle of nowhere, complete with a map to his location. X marks the spot.

This is hilarious.
 

Arthea

Member
no matter what they'll do, someone will be unhappy.
Her being abandoned by parents simply can't be there for no reason, so I'm ready for "I'm your father (or mother) moment"
just imagined Luke saying "I'm your mother", can't even continue with this train of thought, too funny
 
My thing with Starkiller Base is this: I was fed up with Death Stars already in Jedi. I thought it was so incredibly stupid that it was The Death Star Twoooooooo and it looked and sounded and performed exactly the same. It's place in the story was at least different, but by itself, it just felt lazy and I'm surprised that of all the criticisms of Jedi I next to never hear about the Death Star II being one of them.

Fast forward to the Force Awakens, and Star Killer Base is essentially the shiny new Death Star. And you know, I actually don't mind it because it wasn't literally the Death Star III. They excavated a planet and it drains the stars of the system to fire multiple shots at any one time. It was functionally different. So although essentially being just another super planet cannon, at the very least they used the sun thing to give the final scenes some symbolism and a different mood and that was neat.
 
Sure it might be, depending on how it's handled.

I'm just saying that's clearly the direction, they're going in, based off of this movie and comments made in the past (I.E. Kathleen Kennedy saying that the mainline movies are the stories of the Skywalkers). Rey's not a nobody

This is a toss up, because as far as I'm concerned. Kylo is a Skywalker.
 

Arthea

Member
My thing with Starkiller Base is this: I was fed up with Death Stars already in Jedi. I thought it was so incredibly stupid that it was The Death Star Twoooooooo and it looked and sounded and performed exactly the same. It's place in the story was at least different, but by itself, it just felt lazy and I'm surprised that of all the criticisms of Jedi I next to never hear about the Death Star II being one of them.

Fat forward to the Force Awakens, and Star Killer Base is essentially the shiny new Death Star. And you know, I actually don't mind it because it wasn't literally the Death Star III. They excavated a planet and it drains the stars of the system to fire multiple shots at any one time. It was functionally different. So although essentially being just another super planet cannon, at the very least they used the sun thing to give the final scenes some symbolism and a different mood and that was neat.

I don't understand this complaint at all, take us humans, if we make some cool weapon, let's say a bazooka, do we make new one after and new one after that? no, even if we make new ones we still keep making bazookas.
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
I have a dumb theory that Rey is a really advanced type of droid long hidden in plain sight.

Her memories are fake, but she can "figure things out" abnormally quickly.

Or she was immaculately concieved from the force.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
The good thing about the Starkiller is that it's not the main driver of the plot like in the OT. It's the enabler for the final confrontations (Han vs. Ben, Kylo vs. Finn&Rey).

The bad thing about the Starkiller is that it needed to be a thing in TFA. Who knows, maybe some focus groups decided that.

Focusing on the Starkiller is like complaining that Kylo is not a badass as Vader, a.k.a. not seeing the forest for the trees.

Edit: it would be really cool if Rey would be the Jedi from the prophecy and not just Luke or Leia's daughter.
 

Arthea

Member
I have a dumb theory that Rey is a really advanced type of droid long hidden in plain sight.

Or she was immaculately concieved from the force.

reading some of posts here, I'm really glad you guys aren't directing Star War movies.

you kidding, right?
just checking
 

Tektonic

Member
The shields were down in the base, so it wasn't just a simple matter of sending in the Xwings. Han and co. had to actually infiltrate the base to make it vulnerable. That helped it feel less like ANH to me as it also involved some espionage. The "trench run" as it were was extremely brief and not the focus. The actual climax was the saber duel in the woods.

Something that bothered me, falcon can bypass shield on star killer by hyper spacing into atmosphere. Poe is "great pilot", why couldn't he do the same?

If the shield can be bypassed, why do you need to bring it down?

Also; Snoke has scar. Now Kylo has scar. Obviously Snoke is Future Kylo. After all, Rian is doing episode 8
 
Rey has to be a Skywalker. This is the story of Anakin and his line. The story cannot be that Anakin's redemption was pointless, as the Skywalker line returned to the dark side anyway. Kylo Ren will not be redeemed, and the savior of the galaxy will not again be Luke. But as Yoda said, "there is another."

If they go another direction with Rey, they might as well have jumped ahead in time farther and left he OT's characters completely in the past.
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
reading some of posts here, I'm really glad you guys aren't directing Star War movies.

you kidding, right?
just checking
The fuck are you talking about? Do you have me confused with someone else? Or are you just aggressively rude towards people who have admittedly dumb theories about kids movies with silly plots?

If I was directing Star Wars I would immediately quit and use the surrounding scandal to fund a movie with a new story not marketed to nostalgic parents.
 
Something that bothered me, falcon can bypass shield on star killer by hyper spacing into atmosphere. Poe is "great pilot", why couldn't he do the same?

If the shield can be bypassed, why do you need to bring it down?

Not everyone is a prodigy at pulling off crazy feats at past lightspeed.
 

Keby

Member
This is how I see Starkiller base and the death stars before it.
They are the "Atom Bombs" of this universe. The ultimate weapon ever conceived. You don't just give up on what is probably the greatest power ever in the galaxy (though insignificant next to the power of the force ;) )

I thought the idea was awesome. It's a death star that was improved beyond what the empire built twice. Multiple targets. Amazing. It just didn't feel threatening enough. As a plot device it's importance came kind of out of nowhere since everyone was so focused on finding Luke. I still love the idea of it. How cool would it have been if it became a multi movie threat instead? It seemingly can destroy whole planetary systems without even being inside the system.
 
What about the base living up to it's namesake and being an actual Star Killer?

Bonus points.

It's actually not a bad name, it just gets lost in the imperial naming schemes.

Death Star
Star Destroyer
Star Dreadnought
Star Killer

This is how I see Starkiller base and the death stars before it.
They are the "Atom Bombs" of this universe. The ultimate weapon ever conceived. You don't just give up on what is probably the greatest power ever in the galaxy (though insignificant next to the power of the force ;) )

I thought the idea was awesome. It's a death star that was improved beyond what the empire built twice. Multiple targets. Amazing. It just didn't feel threatening enough. As a plot device it's importance came kind of out of nowhere since everyone was so focused on finding Luke. I still love the idea of it. How cool would it have been if it became a multi movie threat instead? It seemingly can destroy whole planetary systems without even being inside the system.
Don't forget it can attack from crazy distances. The Death Star seems like it needed to be somewhere near orbit of it's target. Meanwhile Starkiller can hit targets on the other side of the galaxy.

Not everyone is a prodigy at pulling off crazy feats at past lightspeed.

I think the 4th or 5th episode of clones wars touches on this. Anakin is trying to take out a large ship and his squad is getting destroyed, but he is determined to make the attack. Then Ahsoka reminds him that just because he can do it, doesn't mean everyone can.
 
The good thing about the Starkiller is that it's not the main driver of the plot like in the OT. It's the enabler for the final confrontations (Han vs. Ben, Kylo vs. Finn&Rey).

The bad thing about the Starkiller is that it needed to be a thing in TFA. Who knows, maybe some focus groups decided that.

Focusing on the Starkiller is like complaining that Kylo is not a badass as Vader, is not seeing the forest for the trees.

This is why the movie needs multiple viewings. Your expectations on an ew Star Wars is seeing a NEW Star Wars, so when you see ANH story beats, it's disappointing.

But when you watch it again and know what to expect, you catch the foreshadowing you might have missed, or notice a scene play out differently than you thought looking back at it, or something in the dialogue that makes you see that there are things beneath the ANH surface that shows promise for the new trilogy's potential.

Still it is a downer that TFA had to be the one responsible for reminding everyone what SW is after the prequels while trying to setup the new characters for the future.
 

Plasma

Banned
I still need a second viewing, but why does everyone think R2 taking a bit to boot up is such a stretch? My timeline may be off, but if it took R2 an hour or so (not out of the question since him being a robot would require a pretty long diagnostics phase to test all of his actuators and junk before sending them full power) the rest of command was balls deep in an assault by that point. It would make sense for him to play dead until some trusted people (Liea/Chewy/BB-8) were back in the room. It's not out of character for R2 to play dumb until he's sure shit is secure.

I think it's because he just sort of boots up right at the end and it's a bit of a surprise given how C3PO said he'd been on standby for years. They probably could have made that scene better if after BB8 and C3PO leave the camera focuses on R2 and slowly one of the lights flicker on or something to show he is starting to boot up again.
 
Sure it might be, depending on how it's handled.

I'm just saying that's clearly the direction, they're going in, based off of this movie and comments made in the past (I.E. Kathleen Kennedy saying that the mainline movies are the stories of the Skywalkers). Rey's not a nobody

Indeed. However I could still see them going for a twist of some sort. The issue with it though is figuring out one that not only fits the established groundwork, but would also be thematically relevant and also whether or not it'd be an effective 'twist' to general audiences.

Rey's connected to the Skywalkers somehow. That much is made pretty damn clear in the film. The easy guess is that Rey is Luke's daughter, which makes sense enough. If that's the case though, then I would wager that the chances are high that Episode VIII will play it straight and reveal it earlier on like TFA did with Kylo being Han and Leia's son. If there's a twist that plays into Rey being Luke's daughter, it could only really be something to do with whoever the mother is.

That being said, it's not the only way that Rey could be connected to the Skywalker lineage. I fully recognize that it's out there and could very easily just be a nutty idea on my part, but there's also the possibility that Rey isn't Luke or Leia's kid, but instead has some sort of spiritual connection to the family through Anakin (i.e. reincarnation or similar connection to the Force).

That would fit thematically with the story and probably surprise a large number of audiences. Whether it'd be a good twist or not is a whole other debate.
 
I don't understand this complaint at all, take us humans, if we make some cool weapon, let's say a bazooka, do we make new one after and new one after that? no, even if we make new ones we still keep making bazookas.

Well, you know those video games that are not at all generous with their checkpoints? You'll spend a bunch of time overcoming one challenge and then learn that you have to do a second challenge along with the first all in one go because there's no checkpoint in between. It's like, c'mon man. There's this feeling that you've already achieved but you're still having to do it again for reasons. That's kinda the feeling I get with the Death Star sequels.

Maybe this is a whack comparison though.
 
I just saw it. My rating: Bad fanfiction quality. Disney dropped the ball.

Of the three reboots this year (Jurassic World, Terminator and this), it's the worst. Still worth seeing for the nostalgia though, but the plot is just a pile of coincidences.

Favorite part: Luke just standing there, in the middle of nowhere, complete with a map to his location. X marks the spot.


This wasn't a reboot. It was the best Star Wars movie.
 
This is how I see Starkiller base and the death stars before it.
They are the "Atom Bombs" of this universe. The ultimate weapon ever conceived. You don't just give up on what is probably the greatest power ever in the galaxy (though insignificant next to the power of the force ;) )

I thought the idea was awesome. It's a death star that was improved beyond what the empire built twice. Multiple targets. Amazing. It just didn't feel threatening enough. As a plot device it's importance came kind of out of nowhere since everyone was so focused on finding Luke. I still love the idea of it. How cool would it have been if it became a multi movie threat instead? It seemingly can destroy whole planetary systems without even being inside the system.


Multiple targets from far far away in a secret location allowing for a surprise attack

It's the atom bomb and Pearl Harbour combined.
 

darthbob

Member
Bonus points.

It's actually not a bad name, it just gets lost in the imperial naming schemes.

Death Star
Star Destroyer
Star Dreadnought
Star Killer

Is Star Dreadnought the canon term for ships in the class of the Executor? Never cared for the 'Super' Star Destroyer term for ships of those class.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The good thing about the Starkiller is that it's not the main driver of the plot like in the OT. It's the enabler for the final confrontations (Han vs. Ben, Kylo vs. Finn&Rey).

The bad thing about the Starkiller is that it needed to be a thing in TFA. Who knows, maybe some focus groups decided that.

Focusing on the Starkiller is like complaining that Kylo is not a badass as Vader, a.k.a. not seeing the forest for the trees.

Edit: it would be really cool if Rey would be the Jedi from the prophecy and not just Luke or Leia's daughter.

If I compare the Starkiller to the Death Star in ANH, it falls way short narratively.

But it's not that different from the Death Star in ROTJ. It's of secondary importance to the overall plot.... and instead of having a tightly-edited ANH style quest to destroy it, it's just one of 3 concurrent action scenes. When it blows up, it's like an afterthought. The movie does nothing to build us up and get excited for its destruction. It doesn't really matter all that much, because the lightsaber battle is the real conflict.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing it. It's a bit sad that this trilogy starts with such a limp central concept...
 
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