I saw the movie yesterday, and Ren looked like some scrawny Indie Rocker. I just couldn't take him seriously as some sort of threat. They should have kept his mask on for a couple more movies.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
I saw the movie yesterday, and Ren looked like some scrawny Indie Rocker. I just couldn't take him seriously as some sort of threat. They should have kept his mask on for a couple more movies.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I bet that ends up being a giant (get it!) problem with Snoke, in fact. That Wizard of Oz vibe he's giving off makes me think part of the reason anyone goes along with him is he's really good at the sales, but not so good at delivering the goods.
I figure Kylo is gonna murder him on the way to becoming THE big bad in Episode 9.
Definitely. I see Kylo Ren's development as the typical evolution of a pathological killer. The dark side of the force needs anger and hate. He had some kind of anger directed towards his father, but on the other hand the link to his father was pulling him towards the light side. Now he broken that link. But that was not enough. The fact that Rey defeated him provides also the hate and the desire for revenge. That will make him grow exponentially. Plus, after killing his real father the next step of evolution is to kill his spiritual father, so Snoke is as good as dead from my point of view.
I think Episode VIII will be very dark from this point of view, it will center on the serial killer Kylo.
that's all there is to it. they'll probably make a spin-off comic detailing how he got that new arm.
basically the whole purpose of this film is to refresh and strengthen the IP which also is why they played it safe by making it a carbon copy of a new hope.
Well he was quiet injured and his training wasn't finished, so I expect him to be bigger threat in VIII and VIV
I hope he isn't a young man with anger issues anymore in VIII
WadiumArcadium
Member
Kylo's not supposed to be Vader 2.0. He'll grow as a threat but he's intended to be different to the villains in the previous films.
EdReedFan20
Member
As for the talk about if Han should've died in ROTJ: If Harrison Ford and Lawrence Kasdan were able to convince George Lucas to kill off Han, I think the most meaningful way for him to go was if something went wrong with the demolition charges inside the shield generator and someone needed to stay behind to ensure their destruction. His sacrifice would allow the Rebels to being their assault on the Death Star. Too add a little more drama, maybe someone else is set to do it (maybe Leia), but Han tricks them and locks himself in. As I was watching TFA and realized their plan to knock out part of the Starkiller Base, I honestly thought (as I figured Han was going to die in TFA) that scenario would play out here.
Digital-Hero
Member
There were some shots that made him look quite fierce. I'm surprised I haven't seen a gif of his worms eye walk he had twice in the movie. One was like a medium shot and one a close up I believe.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Well when you save the best pilot in the Resistance, and deliver the droid with Luke Skywalkers location with the help of two of the HEROES (Han and Chewie) of the fall of the Empire, it's pretty easy to trust him.
His arc? He stopped caring only about himself by the end.
Iinstead of escaping from the might of the First Order which he felt no one could beat, by the end he ran head first toward a wannabe sith lord he knew he had no chance in hell of beating.
excelsiorlef
Member
Lol. I don't know what else to say. You seem intent on ignoring what was actually said for reasons I'm unsure.
It is explicitly stated that destroying the Hosnian system was an on the fly change of plans decision done to hinder Leia's attempt to find Luke. Likr the movie could not have made that more explicit. For all you know they perhaps had hoped to take over the Senate eventually the good old fashion way: politics and corruption, that way they'd eventually have even more allies. Remember up until this point no one but the Resistance thought they were truly a threat. They'd been allowed to operate unhindered. That shit is over.
Btw they sent an entire death squad to retrieve the droid. Hardly just two commanders.
It adds to the Skywalker mythos, the bad guys want him to stay lost so badly they're willing to blow up a planetary system to do so.
It's all there but if you want to ignore it and pretend they don't think Skywalker is that important despite two expository scenes telling you otherwise because it makes you think you have some superior grasp on the narrative, have fun.
Gentleman Jack
Member
"You must build a colossal hall with a huge dais, so I can project myself onto it to appear fifty feet high. And it would be really really cool if you could have a source of light behind where my head would be at that size. And anybody who seeks an audience must walk fifty feet towards my hologram and look up at me when they speak."
'But my dark lord, we have 30 years of advancement in galactic communication and it would be much more efficient if we could just employ--'
"SILENCE! JUST DO IT!"
'At once my lord.'
Ren is gonna get his right hand sliced off, but then lift Snoke and throw him down some pit as an act of redemption.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Oh come on. The prequels gave C3P0 a bad name but here he was fine.
But the real reason for the arm...
look at C-3PO and Venom Snake's left arm.
I think that argument is intellectually dishonest given that those people who have enjoyed the film have in many cases acknowledged many of the flaws highlighted. I really don't think the majority of people (including critics) are ignoring the flaws, with the exception of a minority of hardcore fans.
I think it's silly that we live in an age (or maybe this is simply an inflated impression thanks to the Internet) where - be it games, books, films, or music - it seems incomprehensible to some people that someone could enjoy / like something in spite of its flaws or vice versa that one could dislike something while simultaneously noting that it has good qualities.
Example: I enjoyed TFA a lot but felt that the editing and pacing was off. I think this is true for quite a few people people in this thread and in many of the reviews I've read - whether they have liked it or not - though I couldn't say if that was representative of most people or a minority. The point is that just because I liked the film and the sense of light-hearted adventure that was akin to the OT it doesn't mean that I am magically blinded to its flaws. I can see them clearly. I still liked the film.
On the other hand (and I'll use another SW example just so it rhymes, you know, like poetry) I hated Revenge of the Sith but I really enjoyed the scene in the opera house. Hey, wow, look at that: I could really enjoy a scene in a film that I would otherwise not recommend or ever choose to watch again. How is this possible? Surely I should hate every single thing about it!
So yeah, let's not deal in absolutes here... that really would be intellectually dishonest.
I think you need to see the movie one more time (not only related to this post).
Poe trusted him because Finn offered to help him escape. What other option did Poe have? And Finn indeed helps him escape.
Rey didn't trust Finn at the beginning. And Finn didn't tell her he's a former Stormtrooper until the trust was already there. Still, the connection between Rey and Finn was more circumstantial at the beginning. The trust grows slowly as they work together through the troubles. It reaches full trust only once Finn pushes the whole expedition for saving Rey.
BluePigGanon
Member
That is actually one of my favorite things about the character. He takes his helmet off and is somewhat dark and beautiful, he doesn't look especially frightening, and doesn't sound it either. I think Driver's performance hints Kylo knows this: when Hux interrupts Kylo's meeting with Snoke, he momentarily shies away - he looks almost embarassed, he doesn't want to be seen without his mask. He wants that persona. Like Snoke who has a hologram absurdly huge to intimidate, Kylo has his own theater.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
adding to this...
and instead of running away from the order to save his skin, he goes head to head with one of the most dangerous beings in the universe even though he knows he can't win.
His arc is clearly there.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
You don't have to be able to kick everyone's ass to be a great villain. I've been seeing a lot of disagreement on that here, though.
If Rey is related to anyone in the series for some reason I think it is Obi wan.
I haven't seen the originals or PT in a long while but I do remember he (Obi wan) was in exile and in not sure if it was ever explained what he did during that time.
Perhaps she is his granddaughter?
I haven't seen the originals or PT in a long while but I do remember he (Obi wan) was in exile and in not sure if it was ever explained what he did during that time.
Perhaps she is his granddaughter?
he did stuff to derserve trust, sure, but it's weird how quickly Leia and the higher ups of the resistance trusted him. A scene where Leia casts some doubt on him and Poe speaks up and says guy deserves their trust because of this and that would've been nice. Leia should not trust a defected stormtropper so easily IMO.
I was reading an article on Faraci's site about how a bunch of stuff was cut, and how they had to fixed a lot of plot holes during post, and how there's a lack of context to some scenes because important stuff was cut so those scenes don't carry the same weight they would otherwise have. The movie certainly feels like that.
I mentioned my trust issue above, it's more to do with how quickly the higher ups decided to fully trust him. And how many times have we seen spies do good things to get trusted and then outright betray eveyrone, that he saves Poe doesn't really tell me anything.
I guess I really wanted that moment for Finn where he does some good shit and that finally earns him the trust from others, but that moment never came, everyone was eager and willing to trust him almost blindly to get the plot moving quickly. Earning the trust of other would've been a good character arc for him and would've make it more believable than instant friendship.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Exactly what I would picture their spoiled yet ambitious son to look like.
Glad he looked oddly normal instead of a Darth Maul clone or even a hardened warrior.
It's peace times and the First order are basically bullies of the galaxy. He's winning battles in god mode with a crew of Knights that carry his name.
Maybe he'll have a love interest in the rumored Obi Wan spin off movie (trilogy?), he did have that crush in Clone Wars but I don't think anything ever came of it.
LegalEagleMike
Member
Maybe R2 was in eco friendly mode instead of instant on.
They mentioned that it was to denote the passage of time in a visual way. But then they had him refer to it multiple times when he only has a handful of lines to begin with and it winds up just annoying
Gentleman Jack
Member
How was he fine? He's literally that kid in the audience saying 'oh no! something bad is happening!' over and over again. Film didn't need it and actively interrupted the action to have him interject painfully obvious exposition. The film is worse off with C3P0.
They could have found more use for him besides being the umpteenth wink towards A New Hope fans but it didn't.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Han, Chewie and BB-8 probably also vouched for him.
I don't see why she couldn't trust him with all those recommendations.
excelsiorlef
Member
Uhhh Leia literally tells Finn Poe told me all about you
Theodoricos
Member
Wow. People are dissing C3PO now?
You've failed me for the last time, GAF...
You've failed me for the last time, GAF...
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Him interrupting Han and Leia was perfect timing, and his little line about "Princesses" was cute.
I do agree about the ANH references, though. but it wasn't awful. It was just there.
It didn't hurt anything and was no where near as bad as you make it sound.
It's not Padme and Anakin telling us how they feel about each other.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
You might as well omit Jedi from a Star Wars movie if you're going to omit C-3P0.
Plus, it's not like it was enough time to do a background check on him or they had another viable plan to save them from death.
"Do you see my face? What I felt physically when I was wounded, you feel emotionally, Ben. We're not so different, you and I. Wanna listen to some Evanescence albums?"
Ragnorok64
Member
When did Finn actually learn BB-8's name? There was a point when they were running away from the First Order Ties where he says "Come on BB-8!"and I can't remember when specifically he was provided with that information. I recall Poe saying he needed to find a orange and white, one of a kind, BB unit but I don't remember him telling him the name.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Plus they had similar goals.
He wanted to save Rey and they wanted to infiltrate the base.
BluePigGanon
Member
Can you imagine what the movie would've looked like if every suggested change/elaboration/addition mentioned in these threads was implemented? It would be a 9 hour epic of people over-explaining things to each other.
On Snoke: I hope we find out he has Luke to thank for his scars.
On Snoke: I hope we find out he has Luke to thank for his scars.
He reminded Kylo of his late grandfather.
LegendofLex
Member
This stuck out to me as well during my third viewing.
There are a lot of rough patches in the writing for this movie. But, damn, I still love it.
Every time I see someone suggest that the film needed more exposition, a part of me dies a little.
I'd say straight-up the only thing that still throws me off is why R2 wakes up at the precise moment he does. Even the "official explanation" doesn't gel with what we see.
That or having huge explanatory bubbles for every visual cue, comic books style.
Digital-Hero
Member
The one he never met, naw man.
this might be a reason why
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/28/star-wars-storytelling-and-fixing-it-in-post
or they could've slowed the pace just a bit and inject some character interactions and development between big set pieces?
Team Alucard
Banned
Did the first order really blow up coruscant? Doesnt like half the population of the galaxy live there?
That was not Coruscant. It was Hosnian Prime.
excelsiorlef
Member
Exactly. It wasn't perfect but man the amount of exposition some folks are asking for, often while simultaneously having seemingly missed the exposition the movie did have, is astounding.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
"Don't Fix it in Post
-or-
How Star Wars reminded me of that one time I made a movie called Ghost Shark 2: Urban Jaws. Let me tell you about my troubles making Ghost Shark 2: Urban Jaws"
by
The Writer/Director/Producer of Ghost Shark 2, Andrew Todd, maker of Ghost Shark 2"
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Hux said his Strike Force unit was raised from birth. Not ALL storm troopers.
Fin was snatched as a kid
Poe mentions BB during the Tie escape sequence and Rey mentions BB-8's name before the Tie bombing/chase.
LegalEagleMike
Member
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I can appreciate that point actually. There's always a shoulda/woulda/coulda for every movie ever.
But I do think this script had certain issues that made the film feel more "off" than Hollywood's most well-rounded blockbusters. It's pretty natural for people to want to describe exactly what they felt was missing... and that would imply what would fix it.
This film probably had an insane amount of cooks in the kitchen, and real time constraints. Of course it comes out like good swiss cheese. Very tasty, but with obvious holes.
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