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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

The fact that B4DA$$ comes in and is instantly more badass than Boba ever was is hilarious.

They both took an L to Han, but at least B4D455 didn't go out like a chump
 

NimbusD

Member
Leia feels more like a person to me. It sucked that she was the only female, but they treated her right. Brought her home on time. Didn't get all fancy on her.

BB comes into Rey's life, but Rey doesn't want anything to do with it at first. BB insists on staying with her, so Rey follows along. Her stated goal is to get BB back to Le Resistance, but what's her inner goal? To learn the ways of the Force like Luke? No. To fly a piece of garbage like the Falcon? No. It's to eventually deliver BB and go back to Jakku. In Maz's cantina-castle, she finds the child-killing lightsaber and runs away from it, probably because she feels the terror and hatred of the children that was killed by it like an echo of bloodrage seething through the Force that can only be sated by more and more blood, an everlasting and unquenchable thirst...

Then she gets caught by Kylo Ren and Stimpy and learns the mysteries of the Force by force. Then after Ford Solo's death, she accepts her destiny.

It's flat. She goes from "I want to go back to Jakku" to "I really want to go back to Jakku" to "Lol I can Force now."



She was vital to the entire plan. She throws the entire plot into motion. And when our plucky heroes come to save her, she ends up out-heroing them by throwing them away like the garbage they are.

Yeah I sort of agree. It's one of the things about this movie, where there's something that's not very good but the charm and fun of the movie makes up for it. I identify more with Finn, because I know what his struggle is during the movie. Rey's is that she wants to stay back at home, but she doesn't really act that way, she's excited when everything starts happening, so the whole her wanting to stay home feels like a lie. Which I guess it is, but she never speaks to then what her real goals and wants are. Other than to find her family, but the story isnt' really about that so there's no goal that moves her towards that (that we, or she knows of at least).

Honestly, looking at the development of the movie, it seems that the problem came out of her motivations and who she is having changed so much. I know as a writer that sometimes when that happens and you finally settle on something, you sort of think things you already know, but changed about the character are there, but aren't because you took them out of the story. Things you think are implied are only there to you because you never told the audience what was supposed to be there.

Or, who knows, some of the slower scenes that were cut to keep the pacing nice could have helped in this area too.

EDIT: Oh yeah I had this thought earlier. Another reason I'm okay with this is I'm viewing this as Act 1 of the story. She's just now accepting the pull of the quest after seeing who she is and her sort of resisting that pull. That's all first act stuff. Might fall flat for 1 movie, but a lot of this movie doesn't really stand on it's own as a fully separate story. I think, hopefully, it'll be viewed in a better light when the 3 movies are out and the arcs are finished.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
Besides, you know, being captured and having to be rescued, never interacting with another girl, and being harassed by Han Solo. You're essentially arguing that Leia was "good enough," when she wasn't.

This is extremely poor criticism. It's essentially ad reductum...because why?

Rey's arc isn't the most original, but it's there. From almost the moment we meet her we see that she has a future beyond Jakku but she doesn't want to accept it. Through the course of the film we learn what the future is, a destiny, more like, and by the end she comes to accept that path.

This isn't hard.

How is Leia a bad character because sh e never interacted with another female character in ANH? Leia is written wonderfully in that movie and actually subverts the damsel in distress trope. Princess' in classic tales are supposed to be "weak" and reliant on the hero to save them but from the minute we meet Leia we see she is none of those things and it's her who ends up rescuing the other characters from the prison level. Leia was given plenty characterization in ANH as a side character, way more than our supposed lead in TFA.

Second, while I think this is the last time I'm going to talk about this I agree that Rey's arc is flat or uninteresting. An arc is supposed to take a person from A to B, to show a character's personal journey from what they were at the start of a story to how they end up at the end. Rey's arc is very flat, but this is the problem with shrouding a character entirely in mystery so that we know nothing about their past or motivations. At the start of the film we're already shown that she is brave, capable, and needs no help from others to get by. Yet, despite being shown imagery similar to Luke's arc in ANH, Rey in fact has no desire to leave Jakku as she is waiting on "someone." Who? Why? For how long? We are never told.

All of a sudden she becomes really determined to see BB-8 to the Resistance but we aren't given any reason as to why, hell up until that point we had no idea she cared about the Resistance or despised the Empire. Thus, her personal motivation as to risking her entire life to help this cause which she seems to have no personal stake in doesn't seem to make much sense beyond the fact that she is the "good guy." It's the same reason she immediately saves BB-8 and refuses to sell him, she's the "good guy." Again, this is established right at the beginning of the film and it never changes.

She continues to be the "good guy" until she gets captured, realizes she has some of that hidden power, and then at the end decides to continue being the "good guy" instead of going back to her ambiguous past on Jakku. In short, her arc would appear to essentially be from "good guy" to fully accepting she's the good guy. Like I said, it's very flat.

I like to think back the the Plinkett reviews and Anakin's romance, you can't make the audience care about something by putting up or stating arbitrary barriers between the characters. Why can't Anakin and Padme be in love? Because we're told they aren't allowed to, why exactly is this so bad? We aren't ever given a sufficient explanation. Why does Rey care so much about Jakku? Because we're told she's "waiting?" Why is this so important to her that she can't leave for a second? We are never given a sufficient explanation. It may be answered in the future but we can't wait on the future to judge her story right now and her arc as shown in the TFA is thus flat.

Luke, on the other hand, has a clear arc as a farm boy with bigger dreams and no love for the Empire stuck on a remote planet due to his familial obligations. He meets an old wizard on a quest but is hesitant to join and abandon the only family he has ever known. After said family is brutally slain by the Empire he takes it upon himself to join the wizard on his quest and learn the ways of The Force as his father before him. Eventually through many trials and errors he succeeds in delivering a crippling blow to the forces of evil.
 

zsynqx

Member
Worked great for Vader in ANH though. Made him an iconic character too.

I'm not saying that it's good to make a bland character but Kylo was a pretty bad villain.

Kylo is a great villain and Adam Driver gave a great performance. If they had tried to just make Vader 2.0 that would have failed miserably.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Yea I was perfectly fine with her overwhelming Kylo at the end. I feel like he hasn't had the opportunity to really fight against any force users so along with being injured he wasn't ready for that. He's been playing on easy mode mashing buttons and now has to actually learn the controls.

He literally killed an entire class of Luke's force-sensitive students.

He's been partially trained by Luke and now Snoke. He's clearly got power and potential (he's pulled off some of the most impressive force feats we've seen anyone do), but he's also a novice. I can see him growing greatly in power in the next film as he learns control.
 
Thanks. I still don't remember that part to be honest (just that he put some guard to sleep with a single gesture), but I'll take your word for it. Anyway it was still the first appearance of Luke as a fully trained Jedi, so it still shows the mind trick as a high level skill.

But Rey's mental state was more advanced/mature than Luke's.
Not only was she content with staying on Jakku, but she showed an extremely high level of patience (waiting for her parents to return), maturity and strength (to survive on her own) than Luke ever did when his adventure started.

Mentally, she far surpassed Luke, and while Luke was "trained" without any real mortal danger, Rey was "forced" to learn in a hostile, possibly life threatening environment. Her survival instincts that's she's honed all her life allowed her to absorb and adapt which made her a better student than Luke could ever be.
 
Kylo is a great villain and Adam Driver gave a great performance. If they had tried to just make Vader 2.0 that would have failed miserably.
Would they have? There are several SW video games that showed how easy it is to make good Sith Lords. I'm not sure why they chose Kylo for that role. For all I care they could have left Kylo in the movie as he is but the movie would have needed a stronger villain beside him. Someone really dark and evil.

The hero in a movie is only as strong as the villain.
 

Interfectum

Member
I got laughed at when i asked about the mask previously.

This is my summary. I have watched all movies as well..

I do not know what is it with star wars and whiny characters. They turned darth vader in to whiny teenager in new triology. Luke was whiny as well but tolerable. New villan is mega whiny and has no dark presence at all. people laughed when he removed mask or when ever he was without mask.

why could not they just make villain a villain a bad ass one. No need to see how he looks or his motivation. Just a psycho.

Also movie was very much copy of the first one.

They have not learned how to fight or prepare the base in all that time. They do not look very organized organization at all.

I could be reading too much into it but I think the First Order making a death star and botching it completely is kinda of the point. They are trying to make a name for themselves, the New Republic hasn't done shit to stop them and they moved too quickly and sloppily. The First Order is like Kylo. They want to be the Empire but they aren't ready yet and they acted way too hastily. They wanted to finish what the Empire started (Death Star, domination) but they repeated the same mistakes and failed again.

Now both the First Order and New Republic are severely setback and there could be a power vacuum for who ultimately ends up being a dominate force in the galaxy.
 

Blader

Member
Why did C-3PO have a red arm? I don't remember him losing an arm in RotJ.

Just a little detail to indicate the passage of time between Jedi and TFA.

For more, please be excited for C3PO: The Phantom Pain - A Star Wars Story, coming Christmas 2022!
 

KevinG

Member
Would they have? There are several SW video games that showed how easy it is to make good Sith Lords. I'm not sure why they chose Kylo for that role. For all I care they could have left Kylo in the movie as he is but the movie would have needed a stronger villain beside him. Someone really dark and evil.

The hero in a movie is only as strong as the villain.

Snoke is this "someone really dark and evil" that you speak of. He might be shrouded in mystery, but he gives off this wise and ancient evil persona, which I think effectively raises the stakes significantly for our heroes.
 

Halcyon

Member
He literally killed an entire class of Luke's force-sensitive students.

He's been partially trained by Luke and now Snoke. He's clearly got power and potential (he's pulled off some of the most impressive force feats we've seen anyone do), but he's also a novice. I can see him growing greatly in power in the next film as he learns control.


We haven't seen him actually do that though. Maybe they were kids. Maybe they attacked when nobody was expecting it.

I mean I can't imagine a scenario where Luke is involved in that fight and doesn't take all of them out as a Jedi Master so he couldn't have even been there.
 

BFIB

Member
Why did C-3PO have a red arm? I don't remember him losing an arm in RotJ.

He points it out right away thinking that is why Han does not recognize him. Probably parts are in short order for his model?

In the OT, he had a silver leg too.
 
Question: I may have forgotten the reason, but why did BB insist on staying with Rey? Did it feel that she was its best chance to get back to Le Resistance.
 

FloatOn

Member
Do you think we will see Luke use a lightsaber in this new trilogy?

I kind of think he'll be like Yoda in the OT and just use force powers.
 

zsynqx

Member
Would they have? There are several SW video games that showed how easy it is to make good Sith Lords. I'm not sure why they chose Kylo for that role. For all I care they could have left Kylo in the movie as he is but the movie would have needed a stronger villain beside him. Someone really dark and evil.

The hero in a movie is only as strong as the villain.
Clearly Kylo is threatening and before he removes the mask he is very much the villain people like you wanted. If he had stayed like that then I suppose it would have been fine, but when he removes the mask he became far more interesting to me. Also the comparisons to prequel Anakin are terrible and are honestly insulting to the writing and performance by Driver.

This is also just the first movie and only the beginning of his arc. While his character leaves this film on a low point, Snoke says that he will now complete his training meaning the character will come back stronger and likely more focused internally.
 
Do you think we will see Luke use a lightsaber in this new trilogy?

I kind of think he'll be like Yoda in the OT and just use force powers.

I think we will eventually, although the early drafts of this one featured a fighting Luke and he constantly upstaged the new cast.
 

kurahador

Member
Do you think we will see Luke use a lightsaber in this new trilogy?

I kind of think he'll be like Yoda in the OT and just use force powers.

I want to see Luke pulling force hadouken on fools.
4433907-9699846653-ywdrz.gif
 

Newline

Member
Question: I may have forgotten the reason, but why did BB insist on staying with Rey? Did it feel that she was its best chance to get back to Le Resistance.
She did save it from that scavenger, then declined the offer to sell it for rations, guessing it trusted her after that. It's main goal would be to survive in Jakku, without being destroyed for parts or discovered by the first order. She was a safe bet till someone in the resistance came back for it.
 

Vagabundo

Member
Oh Leia was terrible in the original trilogy now? Lol, are people that insecure about Rey that they need to tear down the best female character in the Star Wars movies?


It was only a matter of time.

This is the first time i've seen somebody diss John Williams.
Poor guy has just 5 oscars, career's gonna be hard now.

The poor guy should just retire then or there were issues during production or editing. If yuou thought the music was decent or good in this film you need your ears checked. Complete forgettable.

This has to be a joke post. If not... lol

You joke post. lol

Lol. I think the job he did with the prequels was MUCH better though. New themes in this one were mostly forgettable, whereas the new tracks in the prequels were absolutely fantastic. Duel of the Fates is definitely one of the top tracks in the whole franchise if not the best.

I agree. And the music and sound is a big part of the Star Wars vibe for me.
 
Yeah I sort of agree. It's one of the things about this movie, where there's something that's not very good but the charm and fun of the movie makes up for it. I identify more with Finn, because I know what his struggle is during the movie. Rey's is that she wants to stay back at home, but she doesn't really act that way, she's excited when everything starts happening, so the whole her wanting to stay home feels like a lie. Which I guess it is, but she never speaks to then what her real goals and wants are. Other than to find her family, but the story isnt' really about that so there's no goal that moves her towards that (that we, or she knows of at least).

If her characters beats were "I'm waiting for my family to come back to Jakku" to "Fuck waiting, I'm going to go find them, but I don't want to accept my destiny as the Midichlorian Maiden" to *slaps Robin* "My family is dead!" to "Lol I can Force now" I'd be much happier.

Finn has other problems, but his arc is more clear.

Second, while I think this is the last time I'm going to talk about this

Ha, you'll be back. I agree with your post, btw
 
She did save him from that scavenger, then declined the offer to sell it for rations, guessing it trusted her after that. It's main goal would be to survive in Jakku, without being destroyed for parts or discovered by the first order. She was a safe bet till someone in the resistance came back for it.
People don't watch movies anymore.
 
She did save him from that scavenger, then declined the offer to sell it for rations, guessing it trusted her after that. It's main goal would be to survive in Jakku, without being destroyed for parts or discovered by the first order. She was a safe bet till someone in the resistance came back for it.

I can dig it. I was confusing it with R2 for a bit. R2 was supposed to go find Obi Wan, but BB-8 was supposed to get as far away as possible

People don't watch movies anymore.
Oh, I'm sorry I had a question about the movie.
 

Newline

Member
Just like this post.

It's by no means his best but it's still good. Jedi Steps and Rey's Theme are definitely not forgettable.
I've been listening to Rey's Theme quite alot, it's far from forgettable and definitely my favorite track on the album. I remember being absolutely enraptured by the soundtrack in the cinema. So even if it isn't the most unforgettable soundtrack ever, I think it captured the moments perfectly. (p.s. torn apart is a great new take on classic Star Wars).
 
Rey's is that she wants to stay back at home, but she doesn't really act that way, she's excited when everything starts happening, so the whole her wanting to stay home feels like a lie. Which I guess it is, but she never speaks to then what her real goals and wants are. Other than to find her family, but the story isnt' really about that so there's no goal that moves her towards that (that we, or she knows of at least).

Honestly, looking at the development of the movie, it seems that the problem came out of her motivations and who she is having changed so much.

Rey's arc is very flat, but this is the problem with shrouding a character entirely in mystery so that we know nothing about their past or motivations. At the start of the film we're already shown that she is brave, capable, and needs no help from others to get by. Yet, despite being shown imagery similar to Luke's arc in ANH, Rey in fact has no desire to leave Jakku as she is waiting on "someone." Who? Why? For how long? We are never told.

All of a sudden she becomes really determined to see BB-8 to the Resistance but we aren't given any reason as to why, hell up until that point we had no idea she cared about the Resistance or despised the Empire. Thus, her personal motivation as to risking her entire life to help this cause which she seems to have no personal stake in doesn't seem to make much sense beyond the fact that she is the "good guy." It's the same reason she immediately saves BB-8 and refuses to sell him, she's the "good guy." Again, this is established right at the beginning of the film and it never changes.

She continues to be the "good guy" until she gets captured, realizes she has some of that hidden power, and then at the end decides to continue being the "good guy" instead of going back to her ambiguous past on Jakku. In short, her arc would appear to essentially be from "good guy" to fully accepting she's the good guy. Like I said, it's very flat.


Her wanting to stay home isn't a lie. But at the same time her upbringing has shaped the kind of person she is.

She has been alone all her life, but in her mind she believes her parents would return and end her loneliness. Suddenly, this droid appears out of nowhere.

Even though BB-8 is a droid, I feel that to her, in a weird way BB-8 was her first friend.
Her unwillingness to sell him off or abandon him speaks to her abandonment issues and not wanting the same pain put on others.

Her goal was first to wait for BB-8's master(Poe) to come get him, then once Finn entered her life, she's been on the run with little time to process anything. Only when Han tries to recruit her, does reality set in reminding her she needs to get home, but only AFTER BB-8 is returned. She doesn't want to abandon him like she was abandoned which is why she had such a big reaction to Finn wanting to abandon the mission. She was touched that he wanted her to come with him, but she felt an obligation to BB-8 because she was the one that found him.

When she comes face to face with Maz and the Lightsaber, not only is her world crushed by the realization that her parents are never coming back, but now she has to deal with fate/destiny. Once she realizes she cannot escape fate, she confronts it by taking the lightsaber and using the force.

Her only real choice now is to move forward along the path fate has given her. It will be interesting to see how she deals with it all now that she no longer has the thought of her parents returning to give her hope (and inner strength?).

She is truly alone now so we will see how much that will affect her emotionally, especially when she discovers the truth on why she was abandoned all those years ago.
 

The Chef

Member
You didn't have a question. You criticized the film for something it blatantly explains. Ergo, you didn't watch the film.

Mmm, I think you really misread or misunderstood his earlier post.


JJ explained in an interview regarding light saber fights that he wanted more raw impactful fighting style and not so choreographed as in earlier films.

You can really see it here.
Such a great decision.


I dont get it.
 

Ahasverus

Member
There are two things I don't get at all

- What's going on with the new Republic? It's criminally glossed over, we saw the new order killing the whole Senate and barely someone bats an eye and no one seems Concerned about the people besides 'who's giving us money now'.

- What was the point of BB8's map? If R2-D2 'S part was necessary it meant that either it was all they needed, wasn't it? Bb8's was nothing of use.
 
Saw it last night, really liked it. It didn't live up to my expectations but that's because I had very high expectations. This is unussual for me since I am a huge cynic but reading up on the movie before hand it just felt like they were doing everything right, but I still felt like something was missing.

I loved all the new characters. Finn, Rey, Poe, and Ren were all fantastic. I didn't know what i'd think of Ren before hand but I really enjoyed the way they handled him through out the film. I knew I'd love Rey and Finn and I did. Even though I love Oscar Issac I didn't know if I'd like his character but I ended up loving Poe and I wish he was in the movie more. Which brings me to my first problem with the film is that I don't think the new guys have enough screen time. I liked the first half of the film better than the second just because that's where we got the most exposure to the new characters and where the film felt freshest. I'm not mad about the returning characters, and I am in fact really happy they were there and really like how they handled. So It's not so much I wanted han, leia, etc.. to have less screen time. I just wanted more from the newer guys.

I don't know why but I was expecting life like CGI in this film. While the CGI was still really good for the most part. It still looked bad in a lot of areas which was surprising. And the the 2 main CGI characters looked really bad and out of place.

I also really like the parallels between the OT and this one. Like the scene with Han and Kylo mirroring Ben and Vader, I'm surprised they killed Han but I am glad they did. He got just the right amount of exposure in this film, but anymore would've been pushing it. I want the new cast to shine. I loved how the scene was shot as well with the silence and the use of the lighting to show to duology of the force and when the sun disappears the blue light disappears leaving only the red showing how Kylo succumbed to the dark side, that scene was great.

Now my biggest problem with the film is something I didn't even notice while watching but in retrospect has been bugging me more and more was how Finn and Rey were handled. Rey does too much and Finn does too little. I know there's been a lot of discussion about Rey being a mary Sue and while I won't go that far, in retrospect she was pretty much perfect. I'm glad we got a strong female lead and how she subverted a lot of tropes like her saving herself before Finn can and her escaping by herself without needed to be saved. However I felt like a lot of this came at the expense of Finn's development who did absolutely nothing through out the whole film. All he does in the film is run and gets saved. Which would've been fine had he been given at least 1 moment to shine but that moment never came. Even when he's fighting some no named Storm Trooper he still needs to be saved by Han. This was crushing to me because I was looking forward so much to his character.(I knew he was going to be second fiddle to Rey before going into it but I didn't expect it to this degree) I still really loved his character but the fact that everyone but him gets to do something cool was annoying. Hopefully this is just setting him up for great things in the rest of the trilogy but I am pessimistic about that after this.

I also really liked the ending. I knew we were getting a cliff hanger but I honestly thought the film would cut off before it did and I am glad we got the last shot of Luke. They handled that perfectly. The ending makes me believe that we're going to get an ESB like scenario next film with Rey being separated from the rest of the cast for most of the film while being trained by Luke only the be reunited at the end kind of like with Luke and Yoda in the OT.

Overall really enjoyed it, had some problems but I hope they'll be rectified in future films.
 
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