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[Kitschkraft]

Han and Leia don't bicker. Han harasses Leia throughout most of the film and Leia bickers with him as a result.

I don't necessarily agree about Han/Leia. The point however was that, given the whimsical attitude characters sometimes take towards danger in this universe, the boyfriend thing wasn't really out of place. Just SW people being SW people.

 

[The Librarian]

It's not even that she uses the Force, because it's already subconsciously helped her dodge blows that would've otherwise killed her as she was running away. But it's when she consciously channels the Force at the end, she channels the dark side. That whole part of the fight isn't filmed, staged, or scored heroically. It's intentionally uneasy with Kylo Ren getting thrown off his balance in slow motion, Rey hitting him while he's down, her gritting her teeth, taking hard-ass swings. She's channeling her rage, unaware of how dangerous this is. The ground separating the two of them is purely to prevent her from going too far.

She wouldn't have killed Kylo.

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

I'm kinda hoping someone will name drop Mara Jade at some point just a cute reference. The legends universe does deserve some amount of respect.

In keeping with how disappointed I was with everything First Order related, I really, really would have liked some Grand Admiral Thrawn sort of guy. Somebody who can make a mess of things for the Republic/Resistance just by being an awesome commander so we don't have to have yet another superweapon that'll inevitably be destroyed by the rebels.

Instead we're stuck with a poor man's Vader and some giant Gollum cosplayer named "Snoke."

 

[Johndoey]

I'm holding onto the vain hope that Mara Jade is Rey's mother and Luke is her father.

It will never happen, and if it did she'd almost certainly be the most OP force user ever.

But damn I wish it would.

If by some grace that happened I would be the person screaming in the middle of the theater.

 

[El Topo]

When the hell did Luke fail in A New Hope?

He got beaten by a Tusken Raider and is saved by Obi-Wan. He almost gets into a fight in the Cantina and is again saved by Obi-Wan. He is caught in the trash compactor and saved by R2D2/C3P0. He is almost shot down by Vader, saved by Han. Not all of these count as a fail, I guess. On the other hand he expertly flies the X-Wing despite no experience, doing much better than experienced pilots, not to mention he learns to dodge laster bolts while being blind and makes a difficult shot.

Neither Luke nor Rey are a Mary Sue, unless you use a really vague, wide, nonsensical definition. That said, we have a thread for that discussion and I think it would be nice if we could keep it there.

 

[PopeReal]

In keeping with how disappointed I was with everything First Order related, I really, really would have liked some Grand Admiral Thrawn sort of guy. Somebody who can make a mess of things for the Republic/Resistance just by being an awesome commander so we don't have to have yet another superweapon that'll inevitably be destroyed by the rebels.

Instead we're stuck with a poor man's Vader and some giant Gollum cosplayer named "Snoke."

Kylo is nothing like a poor man's Vader. He is nothing like him at all.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

In keeping with how disappointed I was with everything First Order related, I really, really would have liked some Grand Admiral Thrawn sort of guy. Somebody who can make a mess of things for the Republic/Resistance just by being an awesome commander so we don't have to have yet another superweapon that'll inevitably be destroyed by the rebels.

Instead we're stuck with a poor man's Vader and some giant Gollum cosplayer named "Snoke."

I have a feeling Benicio Del Toro might play that kind of role in Episode VIII.

 

[Jonm1010]

Luke failed time after time and had to be rescued over and over. he was also whiny and naive. you know, real personality flaws. we were also shown how he had to go through a journey being mentored by obiwan to learn about the force and how to use it. Rey didn't have any of these steps, yet is still throughout the whole movie far stronger than luke ever was at the end of ANH.

Luke becomes an expert pilot with little to no experience on that ship or any indication he has piloted a similar one. Single handily brings down the death star without looking and the magical force helping him.

The groundwork for his so called advancement in skill is absent(in the case of being an expertly skilled marksman taking out platoons of stormtroopers) or poorly developed(magically being able to block lasers blindfolded or shooting rats with a farmer ship to being an expert pilot of a new ship) somehow translates to expert level feats of skill only days later.

Plus, Luke doesnt fail. Not meaningfully. Not in ANH.

 

[Johndoey]

I have a feeling Benicio Del Toro might play that kind of role in Episode VIII.

I kinda hope Del Toro is somehow just playing his character from Sicario.

 

[heliosRAzi]

He got beaten by a Tusken Raider and is saved by Obi-Wan. He almost gets into a fight in the Cantina and is again saved by Obi-Wan. He is caught in the trash compactor and saved by R2D2/C3P0. He is almost shot down by Vader, saved by Han. Not all of these count as a fail, I guess.

Luke's greatest failure is that he never got those power converters

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Yeah that sucked but thankfully the stuff on the ground minus the shields was great. Felt like the republic was something they cared not to explore whatsoever so blow it up. I honestly can't even remember the X Wing battle apart from them going through a hole. The freighter, gangsters and monsters bothered me more, it felt like TV sci fi and I can not stand that scottish accent, the monsters were whatever, I was tuning out through that part. The film should have been a calm moment there with Han, Chewie just meeting up with them to take the ship. JJ stuffed too much in there for the sake of a fast pace, ruined the flow completely.

Agree with this for the most part, although I liked that we got an opportunity to see Han up to his old tricks. Smuggling creatures like that seemed a bit out of character, even for him, but it let us know what he's been up to for the past number of years.

 

[Oozer3993]

Nope, not yet.

Then I suggest the name "Skellig." No need to overthink it, the place's actual name sounds old and Star Wars-y enough.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I wonder what they'll do with Finn and Poe for the next movie? Rey has a pretty clear path least to start.

I think Finn will be recovering and start taking a leadership role in the Resistance, and Poe will continue being awesome.

Spoiler

is it wrong that I want them to be dating in Ep. VIII?

 

[The Librarian]

I don't necessarily agree about Han/Leia. The point however was that, given the whimsical attitude characters sometimes take towards danger in this universe, the boyfriend thing wasn't really out of place. Just SW people being SW people.

Princess Leia: Let go.
Han Solo: Shh.
Princess Leia: Let go, please.
Han Solo: Don't get excited.
Princess Leia: Captain, being held by you isn't quite enough to get me excited.
Han Solo: Sorry sweetheart. I haven't got time for anything else.

 

[Johndoey]

I think Finn will be recovering and start taking a leadership role in the Resistance, and Poe will continue being awesome.

Spoiler

is it wrong that I want them to be dating in Ep. VIII?

Its a waste if they aren't.

 

[QuantumZebra]

He got beaten by a Tusken Raider and is saved by Obi-Wan. He almost gets into a fight in the Cantina and is again saved by Obi-Wan. He is caught in the trash compactor and saved by R2D2/C3P0. He is almost shot down by Vader, saved by Han. Not all of these count as a fail, I guess. On the other hand he expertly flies the X-Wing despite no experience, doing much better than experienced pilots, not to mention he learns to dodge laster bolts while being blind and makes a difficult shot.

Neither Luke nor Rey are a Mary Sue, unless you use a really vague, wide, nonsensical definition. That said, we have a thread for that discussion and I think it would be nice if we could keep it there.

I agree fully - but if people are going to cast aside Rey as a Mary Sue they damn sure had better cast aside Luke first, because he fits that bill a LOT better.

 

[Shaanyboi]

She wouldn't have killed Kylo.

Why not? She's just slashed him across the face. It's not like she's had any real guidance about the light/dark sides of the Force.

 

[Burt]

When the hell did Luke fail in A New Hope?

If you bring up ESB then I'm immediately going to ignore anything else you say, because the only comparison this can be brought to is either A New Hope, or The Phantom Menace (both beginnings of a trilogy that establish characters).

Worst prison break ever, Leia saved the day.

To cut to the core of the issue, people call her a Mary Sue because she's Luke Skywalker plus Han Solo and beats Darth Vader in a lightsaber duel in the first movie. The fact that she lives in an OT AT-AT and dons an X-Wing pilot's helm doesn't help.

She's not a Mary Sue, but I can see how people could choose to see her that way. Just being good at everything doesn't really qualify it though. There's some Star Wars fan fantasy fulfillment there, but she isn't some infallible insert that spent the whole movie telling proving that her way was the right way and everyone else was wrong

 

[Ophelion]

I have a feeling Benicio Del Toro might play that kind of role in Episode VIII.

I worry that Del Toro will end up playing a role just as significant as Max Von Sydow or Gwendoline Christie did in this one.

Do you guys remember all the speculation that percolated around their characters? All for nothing.

Imagine if he does play an Admiral Thrawn character or a major crime lord or whatever else and he gets blown up in the first action sequence. Ha!

Why not? She's just slashed him across the face. It's not like she's had any real guidance about the light/dark sides of the Force.

Not to mention in that moment she had no reason to doubt that he had killed not just Han, but Finn too.

 

[The Librarian]

Why not? She's just slashed him across the face. It's not like she's had any real guidance about the light/dark sides of the Force.

Because that would've been out of character?

 

[Interfectum]

Worst prison break ever, Leia saved the day.

To cut to the core of the issue, people call her a Mary Sue because she's Luke Skywalker plus Han Solo and beats Darth Vader in a lightsaber duel in the first movie. The fact that she lives in an OT AT-AT and dons an X-Wing pilot's helm doesn't help.

Kylo isn't Darth Vader though. He's a completely new archetype that we haven't seen yet. He's probably not even as well trained as an Episode II Anakin. Snoke even implied that his true training can begin now that he's dispatched his father.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

In keeping with how disappointed I was with everything First Order related, I really, really would have liked some Grand Admiral Thrawn sort of guy. Somebody who can make a mess of things for the Republic/Resistance just by being an awesome commander so we don't have to have yet another superweapon that'll inevitably be destroyed by the rebels.

Instead we're stuck with a poor man's Vader and some giant Gollum cosplayer named "Snoke."

I don't think Thrawn would work in a Star Wars movie.

The problem with Thrawn is that he's not really that evil of a guy. He's just a guy that happens to be working for the Empire and is really, really good. I don't think they are really interested in having that kind of character in the movies. They have to be dark vs light, good vs evil etc. It would make a nice change of pace but I don't see it happening any time soon.

 

[Johndoey]

Because that would've been out of character?

Why would it have been out of character?

 

[Burt]

Kylo isn't Darth Vader though. He's a completely new archetype that we haven't seen yet. He's probably not even as well trained as an Episode II Anakin. Snoke even implied that his true training can begin now that he's dispatched his father.

He's the narrative analogue

 

[Shaanyboi]

Because that would've been out of character?

? She had no problem shooting dudes in the woods. Why would she take issue with killing the fucker that just murdered Han and Finn?

 

[The Librarian]

Why would it have been out of character?

Becaus me she's a good person?

Cmon now.

 

[Brakke]

Because that would've been out of character?

How do you know? Had she previously confronted anybody else who had killed a father-figure of hers? Or who had taken anything precious from her?

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

I worry that Del Toro will end up playing a role just as significant as Max Von Sydow or Gwendoline Christie did in this one.

Damn, I just saw the movie today and already completely forgot Von Sydow was in it. Such a waste.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Luke becomes an expert pilot with little to no experience on that ship or any indication he has piloted a similar one. Single handily brings down the death star without looking and the magical force helping him.

The groundwork for his so called advancement in skill is absent(in the case of being an expertly skilled marksman taking out platoons of stormtroopers) or poorly developed(magically being able to block lasers blindfolded or shooting rats with a farmer ship to being an expert pilot of a new ship) somehow translates to expert level feats of skill only days later.

I won't disagree with you, but Luke's accomplishments with his limited exposure to Jedi training and the Force somewhat pale in comparison to Rey's. She is able to pull of a Jedi Mind Trick without seeming to have even seen it in action, and she goes toe-to-toe in a lightsaber battle with villain without any training in that weapon at all. At least Luke had Obi Wan providing the start of his tutelage. It might not have been much, but at least it was something.

Now, that said, I also believe that Rey has already had training. She may have possibly started at Luke's academy before it was destroyed by Kylo, and was later taken into hiding to protect her or something. If the eventual reveal of her parentage doesn't also give us some indication that she has had training and prior exposure to the Force, I'm going to end up being more disappointed.

 

[TheWorthyEdge]

Can someone find me the Leia Shit her Pants video? Can't find it on YT.

 

[Vyer]

I won't disagree with you, but Luke's accomplishments with his limited exposure to Jedi training and the Force somewhat pale in comparison to Rey's. She is able to pull of a Jedi Mind Trick without seeming to have even seen it in action, and she goes toe-to-toe in a lightsaber battle with villain without any training in that weapon at all. At least Luke had Obi Wan providing the start of his tutelage. It might not have been much, but at least it was something.

Now, that said, I also believe that Rey has already had training. She may have possibly started at Luke's academy before it was destroyed by Kylo, and was later taken into hiding to protect her or something. If the eventual reveal of her parentage doesn't also give us some indication that she has had training and prior exposure to the Force, I'm going to end up being more disappointed.

I'd say that Kylo trying to pull information from her mind right before she tries it is 'seeing it in action'. She fights him off and glimpses into his when she talks about how she sees he is 'afraid'.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Becaus me she's a good person?

Cmon now.

Remember when she was going to shoot that one unassuming Stormtrooper in the woods with no warning if not for the safety being on to narrativly absolve her of shooting first? She then pauses to take in having shot a guy... then she shoots several more.

And those guys hadn't even yet killed people she cared about. Kylo Ren, for all she knew, killed TWO in the span of 10 minutes.

 

[Johndoey]

Becaus me she's a good person?

Cmon now.

Sure but morally taking out Ren is totally legitimate. Dude kidnapped her, tried the creepy mind break shit on her and nearly murdered her friend. Not to mention killing Solo.

 

[Jonm1010]

I think Finn will be recovering and start taking a leadership role in the Resistance, and Poe will continue being awesome.

Spoiler

is it wrong that I want them to be dating in Ep. VIII?

I still stand by assessment.

Finn will be the new Leia, taking on a growing leadership role and occasional action star.

Poe will get the falcon with Chewy and be the new Han.

Rey is obviously the new skywalker and after a long absence from Finn they will flesh out their romantic relationship.

 

[Newline]

I think Finn will be recovering and start taking a leadership role in the Resistance, and Poe will continue being awesome.

Spoiler

is it wrong that I want them to be dating in Ep. VIII?

I'd be happy with Finn x Poe or Finn x Rey. Basically Finn's got mad chemistry all over the place.

I still stand by assessment.

Finn will be the new Leia, taking on a growing leadership role and occasional action star.

Poe will get the falcon with Chewy and be the new Han.

Rey is obviously the new skywalker and after a long absence from Finn they will flesh out their romantic relationship.

I kinda see Finn as the new Han. He's scrappy and has no obvious amazing traits.

 

[Johndoey]

I'd be happy with Finn x Poe or Finn x Rey. Basically Finn's got mad chemistry all over the place.

This where i'm at to.

 

[Vagabundo]

She's fumbling her way through pretty much every scenario in the entire movie.

- She wins the fight against the dudes who were trying to steal BB-8, but for a quick moment we almost believe that Finn was gonna need to step in to save her.

- She struggles to get her bearings when first flying the Falcon. The movie even goes so far as to literally handicap her by not giving her a co-pilot, symbolically establishing limitations to her skills.

- She fucks up with the fuses on Han's freighter, setting the Rathtars loose and almost killing everyone.

- She talks multiple times about just wanting to get BB-8 to the Resistance, then she'll go on her merry way back to Jakku and not get involved. This is a really consistent theme for her leading up to the moment where she refuses the lightsaber.

- She gets herself spotted in the woods on Takodana when the First Order arrives by being super cocksure and shooting a bunch of Stormtroopers, which draws them to her, even though she was already pretty well hidden.

- Kylo manhandles her pretty badly during their first encounter, literally paralyzing her.

- During her duel, Kylo literally backs her up to a cliff and remarks that she needs a teacher, which tells us how much skill she was exhibiting up to that point. She only wins because she lets the Force take over, which was first established as a guaranteed insta-win strategy in Episode IV.

None of those are character flaws, except maybe the bolded. She has very little in the way of charactger flaws and zero character growth. She does gain super powers by the end of the movie, but her character arc is completely flat.

Luke and Anakin have deep flaws that effect the plot.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

I'd say that Kylo trying to pull information from her mind right before she tries it is 'seeing it in action'. She fights him off and glimpses into his when she talks about how she sees he is 'afraid'.

True, she does seem to be able to look into his mind and see things as well. Not really the same as the Jedi Mind Trick, but at least some exposure. Also not the same as having someone like Obi Wan coaching and trying you though, which is what Luke had at least.

But again, I believe she's had some training already. We just don't know it yet, and that will be revealed in the next film.

 

[Brakke]

I still stand by assessment.

Finn will be the new Leia, taking on a growing leadership role and occasional action star.

Poe will get the falcon with Chewy and be the new Han.

Rey is obviously the new skywalker and after a long absence from Finn they will flesh out their romantic relationship.

Rey already has Chewie and the Falcon. What? She's the new Luke and the new Han.

 

[AlimNassor]

I don't think Thrawn would work in a Star Wars movie.

The problem with Thrawn is that he's not really that evil of a guy. He's just a guy that happens to be working for the Empire and is really, really good. I don't think they are really interested in having that kind of character in the movies. They have to be dark vs light, good vs evil etc. It would make a nice change of pace but I don't see it happening any time soon.

No Thrawn did some pretty nasty things, he's not a good guy. He's not a card carrying doomsday villain but, he's not a good guy and nor is he grey.

 

[Johndoey]

Rey already has Chewie and the Falcon. What? She's the new Luke and the new Han.

Is Poe the new Wedge?

 

[shinshoryuken]

The dude that played kylo ren...

He sucked. I didn't see anything special about him and I think the reason people are talking about him is because he has an annoying ugly looking face. Put someone who gives the same acting performance + a looks that fit's and people won't make such a big deal.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

I love the Rey character, though I am somewhat critical of her speed of doing certain Force things. It's different than Luke in one major regard: Luke did have Obi-Wan tutoring him while he was learning to use the lightsaber, and even after Obi-Wan died during the trench run. He had the advantage of at least seeing Obi-Wan perform the jedi mind trick, just as an example, and then he was able to ask about it. Rey did these things with no (as yet revealed) prior training or exposure. It's different.

You could certainly say (and I would accept, to an extent) that it has been established that certain characters are just naturally using the Force even with no training at all. Luke presumably channeled it while bulls-eyeing womprats (not much bigger than 2 meters!) and Anakin did it while piloting his pod-racer. That natural ability could have also certainly helped Rey wield the lightsaber (along with her own training with her staff). But using specific Force techniques without any tutoring? It's a bit too fast forward for me. Nevermind that between A New Hope and The Force Awakens, we've had a lot of expansion in the series about what Jedi training actually encompasses.

That said, go back to the first sentence. I love the Rey character.

It's not even that she uses the Force, because it's already subconsciously helped her dodge blows that would've otherwise killed her as she was running away. But it's when she consciously channels the Force at the end, she channels the dark side. That whole part of the fight isn't filmed, staged, or scored heroically. It's intentionally uneasy with Kylo Ren getting thrown off his balance in slow motion, Rey hitting him while he's down, her gritting her teeth, taking hard swings. She's channeling her rage, unaware of how dangerous this is. The ground separating the two of them is purely to prevent her from going too far.

Dark side? I don't see that at all. She had such a look of calmness come over her at that moment, total serenity, and then she unloaded.

Also, I grit my teeth when I'm in the gym. That isn't rage, that's determination, because I'm doing something hard.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Is Poe the new Wedge?

Poe is Porkins

 

[WadiumArcadium]

I worry that Del Toro will end up playing a role just as significant as Max Von Sydow or Gwendoline Christie did in this one.

Do you guys remember all the speculation that percolated around their characters? All for nothing.

Imagine if he does play an Admiral Thrawn character or a major crime lord or whatever else and he gets blown up in the first action sequence. Ha!

I'm sure it's a more significant role than Lor San Tekka or Phasma. He referred to his character as "like the villain" at one point so I'm guessing he'll be part of another faction, not the First Order or the Resistance.

The dude that played kylo ren...

He sucked. I didn't see anything special about him and I think the reason people are talking about him is because he has an annoying ugly looking face. Put someone who gives the same acting performance + a looks that fit's and people won't make such a big deal.

Lol. So people are only praising him because he has an unusual look? Ok. This thread always delivers.

 

[ElFly]

I don't think Thrawn would work in a Star Wars movie.

The problem with Thrawn is that he's not really that evil of a guy. He's just a guy that happens to be working for the Empire and is really, really good. I don't think they are really interested in having that kind of character in the movies. They have to be dark vs light, good vs evil etc. It would make a nice change of pace but I don't see it happening any time soon.

Oh god no.

I really hate when villains are just inefficient for no good reason.

Vader force choking every officer who fucked up under him is my less favorite part of Empire.

 

[Ragnorok64]

I'd say that Kylo trying to pull information from her mind right before she tries it is 'seeing it in action'. She fights him off and glimpses into his when she talks about how she sees he is 'afraid'.

Resisting and turning around a mind probe doesn't really equate into being able to dominate mind a few mind a few moments later. What she did was on a level unheard of in the movies. Previously we've seen trained Jedi implant suggestions in someone's mind be she straight up makes someone do something the were specifically resolved not to do.

 

[the black pearl]

Yeah, I think Rey is more of a Mary Sue than Luke. And I'm knocking her for that. But she's better at tending to the Millennium Falcon than Han is.

 

[Vyer]

The dude that played kylo ren...

He sucked. I didn't see anything special about him and I think the reason people are talking about him is because he has an annoying ugly looking face. Put someone who gives the same acting performance + a looks that fit's and people won't make such a big deal.

nah.

he turned out to be an excellent choice and did a great job with it.

 

[QuantumZebra]

None of those are character flaws, except maybe the bolded. She has very little in the way of charactger flaws and zero character growth. She does gain super powers by the end of the movie, but her character arc is completely flat.

Luke and Anakin have deep flaws that effect the plot.

I'm just gonna take a break from this thread because its just a never ending stream of garbage it seems.


She goes from a scared kid who doesn't want to leave her planet, to someone who is scared, AND frantically trying to escape her new captors, to someone who is literally faced with a monster (Ren) and looks scared shitless again (and is then tossed into a tree). Then finally after finding her center, manages to take Ren down after he'd been shot, killed his dad, fought someone else, and she STILL has to harness the dark side to fight him back.


Please, PLEASE show me Luke and Anakins flaws in A New Hope and The Phantom Menace.