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[Grover Cleveland]

I think you want the world of Star Wars to be different from what it actually is. Religion is a part of the Star Wars universe, just as it is with ours, and the references that come with it naturally. Specifically, on multiple occasions, religion is mentioned; jedi have temples, Tarkin refers to Vader's "ancient religion", several "damn" and "hell" uses.

I have absolutely no problem with religion in Star Wars.

I just find it odd that they employ references to concepts that are very much part of religions that don't exist in Star Wars.

But according to the link someone posted above they co-opted Hell into the mythos so never mind, it's fine.

 

[TAJ]

It felt like an innocent, clumsy way of finding out if a girl was single to me.

Also, call me crazy, but I don't think asking a girl if she has a boyfriend is wrong. Awkward, perhaps, but I definitely wouldn't describe it as "jerk-ish."

And, this is not what I expected to be talking about in a Star Wars thread.

If anything Finn wasn't nearly awkward enough. Given his background he should be at almost the upper limit of how socially oblivious a person can be without actually being on the autistic spectrum, like just a bit better than someone who was raised by wolves.

 

[Johndoey]

What are people's obsession with whether she is a "Mary Sue" or not? Am I just missing something?

I think it'mostly based around the end fight with her besting Ren.

 

[Raven117]

Eh. Didn't land with me. Just came off as kinda jerk-ish.

I mean, if that's how you perceived it, wont tell ya otherwise.

I certainly giggled along with most of the theater I was in.

It felt like an innocent, clumsy way of finding out if a girl was single to me.

Also, call me crazy, but I don't think asking a girl if she has a boyfriend is wrong. Awkward, perhaps, but I definitely wouldn't describe it as "jerk-ish."

And, this is not what I expected to be talking about in a Star Wars thread.

HAHA Star Wars is the Alpha and Omega . . . If you have an issue, Star Wars addresses it!

I think it'mostly based around the end fight with her besting Ren.

Oh! Gotcha. I mean, bro just took a bowcaster shot to the gut...obviously bleeding out . . . just killed his dad...And the movie makes sure to point this out...again and again...that he is really hurt. Guess that's not "on the nose" enough?

 

[Ophelion]

I didn't expect to see people saying they'd like there to be only one female character, and for her to be treated like shit, as opposed to the lead being a female "mary sue"

Also didn't expect people to be tearing down Finn for not having a complete nervous breakdown about killing stormtroopers in the middle of him trying to escape from being killed.

I could go on... but here we are. Such is Star Wars culture I guess, lol.

It's the third spoiler thread. We're all scraping the bottom of the barrel a little bit here.

 

[Interfectum]

Finally saw the movie for a second time last night, and as others have said, I liked it a lot more. In the first go around I was so eager to take everything in, that a lot of the nuance slipped by me. But it was a more relaxed viewing on the second go, and so I ended up having a better time with it all around.

That said, just about everything that has to do with Starkiller Base still bothers me. It's just such a stupid plot device, and I wish they had never included it. For some reason, JJ and company thought they had to come up with a weapon to top the Death Star, and we ended up with this thing, which is just so poorly conceived on every level.

I also still hate that Han and the gang could see the Republic planets get destroyed despite being hundreds of light years away (ala vulcan in Star Trek 09). I hate the fact that the Republic was wiped out so quickly and easily, fleet and all. I hate the whole "use a star for power" concept, which doesn't even make sense if you want to be able to fire the cannon more than twice apparently. Starkiller Base is by far the weakest link in the film for me, and I wish they had put more effort into coming up with something more creative and interesting.

The only way I can reason the Starkiller Base's existence in lore is the First Order wanted to make a grand entrance into the galaxy. They aren't just the Empire, they are better and bigger than the Empire! And with that ego-trip they ended up making the same mistakes the Empire made decades ago... history repeating itself and all that. Hux and Kylo are both young, arrogant fools and this grand failure might teach them to be better villains down the line.

 

[The Librarian]

It felt like an innocent, clumsy way of finding out if a girl was single to me.

Right, and I think it would've landed better if they were in a different situation. IIRC, he asks her this while trying to fix something so they don't *die.*

Also, call me crazy, but I don't think asking a girl if she has a boyfriend is wrong. Awkward, perhaps, but I definitely wouldn't describe it as "jerk-ish."

Depending on the circumstances (!), it can be. I mean, people assume I'm straight all the time when it's so incredibly easy to not assume. I can't tell you how many times people have assumed I have an attraction towards men; it's gotten to the point where I can't help but get angry. :/

 

[bitizenbon]

I have a problem with a magic energy that binds the universe together
I have a problem with ships making sounds in space
I have a problem with technically infeasible laser swords
I have a problem with ships too large to be in atmospheric orbit being in atmospheric orbit
I have a problem with people traveling across a galaxy in a day when it should really take years
I have a prob..




Oh wait, its fucking Star Wars. I don't have a problem at all.

Oh come on, there still has to be some logic in the world, you're just stating a bunch of mythos.

 

[Skinpop]

When you have people tearing down the first female lead SW character who very clearly has flaws and calling her a "mary sue", and saying they'd rather see her treated like shit... well what do you think?

yeah thanks for putting words in my mouth.

what I said was that Leia was a better portrayal of a strong character than Rey. Not that I'd rather see her treated like shit.

wtf is wrong with you. you twist and turn my words to fit your agenda with painting anyone who feel the writing of her character was poorly handled as a sexists hypocrite.

She doesn't have any clear flaws. The only thing she has to overcome in the movie is the stubborn idea about returning to jakku and about 30 seconds of force abuse from ren. There is never a journey of learning/understanding and through that overcoming a struggle, she just does it within a minute or two. To me that isn't a strong character, that's an overpowered character and that just strips the movie of all the tension and stops me from rooting for her.

 

[GhaleonEB]

What are people's obsession with whether she is a "Mary Sue" or not? Am I just missing something?

Well. 1) she's not, so there's that. And 2) there's the whole angle of the first female lead in Star Wars getting criticized in ways Luke (for example) was not, and people having to ignore parts of the film or apply double standards in order to make the argument. But for me, 1) is sufficient.

 

[Kitschkraft]

Right, and I think it would've landed better if they were in a different situation. IIRC, he asks her this while trying to fix something so they don't *die.*

That's classic SW though. Han/Leia were bickering like crazy while getting chased by the Empire.

Would it help if I got out and pushed?
It might.

 

[Ragnorok64]

When you have people tearing down the first female lead SW character who very clearly has flaws and calling her a "mary sue", and saying they'd rather see her treated like shit... well what do you think?

Aren't you quoting out of context with the " treated like $hit" bit?

Well, when one of the problems observed in cinema is that men tend to get all the tidy hero roles while women have to be battered in some way over the course of their stories to justify their heroism, and someone says they'd rather have their female heroines be (and I quote) "treated like shit" than given a role that's equivalent to the one a male hero would have, can you really blame people?

Especially when it's also being implied that a woman having a role that's equivalent to the past male hero within the very same franchise is somehow a bad thing (a "Mary Sue").

I can't speak for anyone else but I'd still have pause at Rey doing everything as spectacularly well as she did regardless of gender. The only instance in all of Star Wars I can think of of someone picking Force Powers that quickly is video game characters that have powers as part of their game mechanics. Like, is it even possible to criticize her for being on an unheard of level without being accused of trying to tear down a female heroine?

 

[Interfectum]

Well. 1) she's not, so there's that. And 2) there's the whole angle of the first female lead in Star Wars getting criticized in ways Luke (for example) was not, and people having to ignore parts of the film or apply double standards in order to make the argument. But for me, 1) is sufficient.

It's funny when I asked some people, in real life, why they didn't like Kylo or weren't impressed, their goto answer was "he got beat by a young girl." Had Rey been a man I don't think there would be near the dislike for what went down at the end of the movie in regards to Kylo vs. Rey.

 

[QuantumZebra]

What are people's obsession with whether she is a "Mary Sue" or not? Am I just missing something?

Mary Sue is an incredibly sexist term applied to females who come off as too "tough" or "perfect" - there is no male equivalent of it (maybe the "hero" trope?) - and it is applied to females who show any signs of independence, fighting skills, and thinking for themsleves most often.

We finally *finalllyyyyy* have a great female lead in Star Wars, and people are labeling her with a garbage term which marginalizes and minimizes her importance as a character.

Its shit.

 

[The Librarian]

That's classic SW though. Han/Leia were bickering like crazy while getting chased by the Empire.

Would it help if I got out and pushed?
It might.

Han and Leia don't bicker. Han harasses Leia throughout most of the film and Leia bickers with him as a result.

 

[Jonm1010]

Oh come on, there still has to be some logic in the world, you're just stating a bunch of mythos.

Why does English as the common tongue not fit in that mythos as well? Other then, I just don't like it?

All those things he mentioned could have the same deconstruction applied to them that the poster is applying to English being used as the common language. Frankly some of them are even more egregious.

Truth is, if you try too hard to apply a consistent logic to Star Wars, much of the world starts to fall apart.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

How is it a callback? Everything that's awesome about the scene is earned from the movie it's in.

I dunno what to tell you. The whole build up of that sequence just made me picture Luke in the Wampa cave trying to pull the saber out of the snow. A few people in my audience even had a "oh shit, Its Lu-....oh" moment even go so far as to start clapping before they saw it was Rey who was holding the saber.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

yeah thanks for putting words in my mouth.

what I said was that Leia was a better portrayal of a strong character than Rey. Not that I'd rather see her treated like shit.

wtf is wrong with you. you twist and turn my words to fit your agenda with painting anyone who feel the writing of her character was poorly handled as a sexists hypocrite.

She doesn't have any clear flaws. The only thing she has to overcome in the movie is the stubborn idea about returning to jakku and about 30 seconds of force abuse from ren. There is never a journey of learning/understanding and through that overcoming a struggle, she just does it within a minute or two. To me that isn't a strong character, that's an overpowered character and that just strips the movie of all the tension and stops me from rooting for her.

I'm sure she'll face a more extreme challenge in the next movie or two.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

The only way I can reason the Starkiller Base's existence in lore is the First Order wanted to make a grand entrance into the galaxy. They aren't just the Empire, they are better and bigger than the Empire! And with that ego-trip they ended up making the same mistakes the Empire made decades ago... history repeating itself and all that. Hux and Kylo are both young, arrogant fools and this grand failure might teach them to be better villains down the line.

Maybe, but Snoke seems like he would know better, especially since he has apparently been around for both the rise and fall of the Empire.

 

[The Chef]

I have a problem with most everyone speaking American English in the galaxy, when that language won't have been invented on Earth for a long, long time, in a separate galaxy that is quite a ways away from the one Star Wars takes place in.

You have to be kidding me with this shit.
Just dont watch movies or read books bro.

It's funny when I asked some people, in real life, why they didn't like Kylo or weren't impressed, their goto answer was "he got beat by a young girl." Had Rey been a man I don't think there would be near the dislike for what went down at the end of the movie in regards to Kylo vs. Rey.

I've yet to speak to a single person "in real life" at work or wherever that did NOT totally love the movie *shrug*

 

[TAJ]

It's funny when I asked some people, in real life, why they didn't like Kylo or weren't impressed, their goto answer was "he got beat by a young girl." Had Rey been a man I don't think there would be near the dislike for what went down at the end of the movie in regards to Kylo vs. Rey.

Of course there would have been. A lot of people would be complaining about him being beaten by a beginner... just like they are now.

 

[wowzors]

I really liked Boyega in this movie,felt genuine, not dialed in. Good actor very happy about that casting, not too hot on rey, and ice cold on kylo.

 

[Raven117]

Well. 1) she's not, so there's that. And 2) there's the whole angle of the first female lead in Star Wars getting criticized in ways Luke (for example) was not, and people having to ignore parts of the film or apply double standards in order to make the argument. But for me, 1) is sufficient.

Gotcha. I guess I'm confused as to what difference would it make if she was or wasn't? Guess I just don't understand.

 

[Interfectum]

Maybe, but Snoke seems like he would know better, especially since he has apparently been around for both the rise and fall of the Empire.

Yeah he's the X factor here. Who he is and what his ultimate plans are will retroactively make Episode VII better or worse, IMO.

 

[PopeReal]

yeah thanks for putting words in my mouth.

what I said was that Leia was a better portrayal of a strong character than Rey. Not that I'd rather see her treated like shit.

wtf is wrong with you. you twist and turn my words to fit your agenda with painting anyone who feel the writing of her character was poorly handled as a sexists hypocrite.

She doesn't have any clear flaws. The only thing she has to overcome in the movie is the stubborn idea about returning to jakku and about 30 seconds of force abuse from ren. There is never a journey of learning/understanding and through that overcoming a struggle, she just does it within a minute or two. To me that isn't a strong character, that's an overpowered character and that just strips the movie of all the tension and stops me from rooting for her.

Lol ok. I call bullshit on this. Her character seems to have touched a nerve.

 

[Theodoricos]

Mary Sue is an incredibly sexist term applied to females who come off as too "tough" or "perfect" - there is no male equivalent of it (maybe the "hero" trope?) - and it is applied to females who show any signs of independence, fighting skills, and thinking for themsleves most often.

We finally *finalllyyyyy* have a great female lead in Star Wars, and people are labeling her with a garbage term which marginalizes and minimizes her importance as a character.

Its shit.

I agree with what you're saying, but there is a male equivalent of it called Gary Stu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

 

[-griffy-]

You have to be kidding me with this shit.
Just dont watch movies or read books bro.

I am kidding you with this shit. Read my other posts. Read the post I was replying to in order to see the context for the sarcasm pointing out the inherent absurdity.

 

[TAJ]

Mary Sue is an incredibly sexist term applied to females who come off as too "tough" or "perfect" - there is no male equivalent of it (maybe the "hero" trope?) - and it is applied to females who show any signs of independence, fighting skills, and thinking for themsleves most often.

We finally *finalllyyyyy* have a great female lead in Star Wars, and people are labeling her with a garbage term which marginalizes and minimizes her importance as a character.

Its shit.

Nope. Superman is an OG Mary Sue, which is why he's dull AF.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

I agree with what you're saying, but there is a male equivalent of it called Gary Stu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Read the OP here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1161509

 

[QuantumZebra]

yeah thanks for putting words in my mouth.

what I said was that Leia was a better portrayal of a strong character than Rey. Not that I'd rather see her treated like shit.

wtf is wrong with you. you twist and turn my words to fit your agenda with painting anyone who feel the writing of her character was poorly handled as a sexists hypocrite.

She doesn't have any clear flaws. The only thing she has to overcome in the movie is the stubborn idea about returning to jakku and about 30 seconds of force abuse from ren. There is never a journey of learning/understanding and through that overcoming a struggle, she just does it within a minute or two. To me that isn't a strong character, that's an overpowered character and that just strips the movie of all the tension and stops me from rooting for her.

I didn't put words in your mouth at all. You said you'd rather see a female character treated like shit then have a "mary sue".

Except Rey isn't a Mary Sue and your explanation of why she would be holds about as much water as a cheese grater.

Luke goes from clueless farm boy to blocking practice blaster shots while blind, and destroying an incredible superweapon without any targeting assistance by "using the force" in days. But that's totally legit, amirite?

Nope. Superman is an OG Mary Sue, which is why he's dull AF.

I agree fully lol. You saying that is the first time I've ever heard it though, which kind of strengthens the argument.

 

[jelly]

Finally saw the movie for a second time last night, and as others have said, I liked it a lot more. In the first go around I was so eager to take everything in, that a lot of the nuance slipped by me. But it was a more relaxed viewing on the second go, and so I ended up having a better time with it all around.

That said, just about everything that has to do with Starkiller Base still bothers me. It's just such a stupid plot device, and I wish they had never included it. For some reason, JJ and company thought they had to come up with a weapon to top the Death Star, and we ended up with this thing, which is just so poorly conceived on every level.

I also still hate that Han and the gang could see the Republic planets get destroyed despite being hundreds of light years away (ala vulcan in Star Trek 09). I hate the fact that the Republic was wiped out so quickly and easily, fleet and all. I hate the whole "use a star for power" concept, which doesn't even make sense if you want to be able to fire the cannon more than twice apparently. Starkiller Base is by far the weakest link in the film for me, and I wish they had put more effort into coming up with something more creative and interesting.

Yeah that sucked but thankfully the stuff on the ground minus the shields was great. Felt like the republic was something they cared not to explore whatsoever so blow it up. I honestly can't even remember the X Wing battle apart from them going through a hole. The freighter, gangsters and monsters bothered me more, it felt like TV sci fi and I can not stand that scottish accent, the monsters were whatever, I was tuning out through that part. The film should have been a calm moment there with Han, Chewie just meeting up with them to take the ship. JJ stuffed too much in there for the sake of a fast pace, ruined the flow completely.

 

[OricWindstar]

Right, and I think it would've landed better if they were in a different situation. IIRC, he asks her this while trying to fix something so they don't *die.*

He does, but he does it as part of a larger response to her wanting to return to Jakku. He asks why she wants to go back, asks about a family, but then there's a pause, and he's hit with the realization that she may have a boyfriend. I think it's him realizing that she may not stay with him, which is probably a scary thought to him after already having lost Poe, the first person to really befriend him.

So, when asks if she has a boyfriend, it's funny because you can tell he's desperate to know, but it's also a bit sad in that he's clearly so worried about losing another friend that he can't help but ask about that possibility. Whether or not it's the right time is debatable, I agree with you that it's not because that's where some of the humor comes from. But that doesn't make him a jerk, it just makes him awkward.

Depending on the circumstances (!), it can be. I mean, people assume I'm straight all the time when it's so incredibly easy to not assume. I can't tell you how many times people have assumed I have an attraction towards men; it's gotten to the point where I can't help but get angry. :/

I'm a straight male, but I've had people assume I'm gay because of the area I work in. I have been asked if I have a boyfriend, to which I'll reply that I don't and that I'm straight. They then will respond with an "Oh, sorry" and we move on about our day.

Yes, it's probably more considerate to say "Do you have a significant other?", but I don't think it's the end of the world for someone to ask a question with an assumption attached.

I definitely wouldn't call that person "pathetic."

 

[Jonm1010]

I am kidding you with this shit. Read my other posts. Read the post I was replying to in order to see the context for the sarcasm pointing out the inherent absurdity.

And to think someone was trying to defend you....And I then responded to him. Good work, touch.

EDIT: though given what I read in this thread whenever I pass through it is hard to distinguish because there have been A LOT of similar posts but made completely serious.

 

[Raven117]

Mary Sue is an incredibly sexist term applied to females who come off as too "tough" or "perfect" - there is no male equivalent of it (maybe the "hero" trope?) - and it is applied to females who show any signs of independence, fighting skills, and thinking for themsleves most often.

We finally *finalllyyyyy* have a great female lead in Star Wars, and people are labeling her with a garbage term which marginalizes and minimizes her importance as a character.

Its shit.

Thanks for explaining. I hadn't even heard the term before wandering into this thread. Looked it up on google, and didn't see where it had the "sexist" connotation more than just a literary tool, (not arguing...just didnt' know).

Im looking forward to seeing where Rey's arc goes in the next film. I think they are setting something up for her...and its going to be great. I also think that perhaps this discussion of "Mary Sue" (whatever...not going there), is only against the backdrop of how well they have already developed Rylo Ken...Easily the biggest character development in TFA is Rylo Ken, not any of the heroes.

 

[The Chef]

I am kidding you with this shit. Read my other posts.

Few!
*wipes brow*

Honestly dude with some of the nonsense I've read in this thread I didn't second guess your post as not being legit for a second.

 

[Jonm1010]

Thanks for explaining. I hadn't even heard the term before wandering into this thread. Looked it up on google, and didn't see where it had the "sexist" connotation more than just a literary tool, (not arguing...just didnt' know).

I am not sure the root origin of the term is inherently sexist but it does seem to have been co-opted and used as a shield by sexists. Knowingly or unknowingly.

 

[Skinpop]

So I guess you didn't root for Luke, huh?

Also, I'm sure she'll face a more extreme challenge in the next movie or two.

Luke failed time after time and had to be rescued over and over. he was also whiny and naive. you know, real personality flaws. we were also shown how he had to go through a journey being mentored by obiwan to learn about the force and how to use it. Rey didn't have any of these steps, yet is still throughout the whole movie far stronger than luke ever was at the end of ANH.

 

[Interfectum]

I've yet to speak to a single person "in real life" at work or wherever that did NOT totally love the movie *shrug*

Well even the people who didn't like Kylo liked the movie overall. I've yet to meet anyone outside of the internet who outright hated it.

What's surprised me are friends that are notoriously picky and jaded about films even loved it.

 

[Johndoey]

I'm kinda hoping someone will name drop Mara Jade at some point just a cute reference. The legends universe does deserve some amount of respect.

 

[LegendofLex]

what I said was that Leia was a better portrayal of a strong character than Rey. Not that I'd rather see her treated like shit.

I suspect people are going to strongly disagree with you given that Leia has to be saved by more capable male heroes in every single movie - usually multiple times per film - and the one time she's left to her own devices and doesn't need to be rescued (when she's on her own on Endor) she hangs out and plays dress-up with teddy bears rather than make her way back to her friends. (Oh, and she needs help from an also-male Ewok to take out a couple Stormtroopers.)

She doesn't have any clear flaws. The only thing she has to overcome in the movie is the stubborn idea about returning to jakku and about 30 seconds of force abuse from ren. There is never a journey of learning/understanding and through that overcoming a struggle, she just does it within a minute or two.

She's fumbling her way through pretty much every scenario in the entire movie.

- She wins the fight against the dudes who were trying to steal BB-8, but for a quick moment we almost believe that Finn was gonna need to step in to save her.

- She struggles to get her bearings when first flying the Falcon. The movie even goes so far as to literally handicap her by not giving her a co-pilot, symbolically establishing limitations to her skills.

- She fucks up with the fuses on Han's freighter, setting the Rathtars loose and almost killing everyone.

- She talks multiple times about just wanting to get BB-8 to the Resistance, then she'll go on her merry way back to Jakku and not get involved. This is a really consistent theme for her leading up to the moment where she refuses the lightsaber.

- She gets herself spotted in the woods on Takodana when the First Order arrives by being super cocksure and shooting a bunch of Stormtroopers, which draws them to her, even though she was already pretty well hidden.

- Kylo manhandles her pretty badly during their first encounter, literally paralyzing her.

- During her duel, Kylo literally backs her up to a cliff and remarks that she needs a teacher, which tells us how much skill she was exhibiting up to that point. She only wins because she lets the Force take over, which was first established as a guaranteed insta-win strategy in Episode IV.

 

[Interfectum]

- During her duel, Kylo literally backs her up to a cliff and remarks that she needs a teacher, which tells us how much skill she was exhibiting up to that point. She only wins because she lets the Force take over, which was first established as a guaranteed insta-win strategy in Episode IV.

And reinforced in Episode VI when Luke easily kicks the shit out of Vader, the chosen one Sith Lord, because he mentioned his sister.

 

[Oozer3993]

Do we know what planet that is at the very end, with Luke chilling at (presumably) the first Jedi temple?

 

[QuantumZebra]

Luke failed time after time and had to be rescued over and over. he was also whiny and naive. you know, real personality flaws. we were also shown how he had to go through a journey being mentored by obiwan to learn about the force and how to use it. Rey didn't have any of these steps, yet is still throughout the whole movie far stronger than luke ever was at the end of ANH.

When the hell did Luke fail in A New Hope?

If you bring up ESB then I'm immediately going to ignore anything else you say, because the only comparison this can be brought to is either A New Hope, or The Phantom Menace (both beginnings of a trilogy that establish characters).

 

[Megasoum]

Just came back from my second viewing.

Still love the movie obviously.

Couple of notes:

-Rey is the best thing to happen to Star Wars in over 30 years. What a fucking amazing character.
-I'm so god damn happy that they ended up keeping Poe alive. I love that guy, another really great character.
-"Ben" Solo...Ben... Oh... I get it now lol.
-Leia didn't annoy me nearly as much as she did on the first viewing. She really need to get her dentures checked tho...
-I'm still disappointed that they cut the scene from the trailer where we see Kylo Ren from behind opening his lightsaber in the forest. I love the way it felt powerful the way he does it.
-...BB-8 > R2-D2... There, I said it.
-I hope that Snoke really is like 30ft tall and it's not just the hologram trick that the emperor used lol.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Do we know what planet that is at the very end, with Luke chilling at (presumably) the first Jedi temple?

Nope, not yet.

-I hope that Snoke really is like 30ft tall and it's not just the hologram trick that the emperor used lol.

He's about 7 ft apparently.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Just came back from my 2nd viewing and I have to say I liked it much, much more this time - and not only because it was the OV this time (thank god, hated the German voices).

My main criticism still remains that there is generally too little exposition but for the strongest annoyances there is actually a little bit there. For instance:

About Mary Sue Rey: The only exposition about here character we get is the flashback. Seeing it again however made it pretty clear to me that she was in one of Luke's Jedi schools when she was little. So yeah, that would be an explanation for her force powers. What I found weird is that this whole thing is presented as if she forgot about this time in her early life (and now remembers some of it with the flashback) but it is never mentioned that way. Like "I don't know why I'm on Jakku" or "I don't know what happened before" or anything like this. However, assuming that she was a Jedi padawan at some point made the whole thing much more enjoy- and believable for me.

About Phasma: Her switching off the shields wasn't actually that stupid after all on 2nd thought. I mean, she did switch them off but also immediately pulled the alarm. Also she obviously didn't expect the attack to happen right away as she told Han and the others that they can't escape and would be apprehended very soon. She probably thought like "Fuck it, they can't do us shit anyway. No need to die here." And she was right. The attack only succeeded because Solo and Chewie planted the bombs. Otherwise it would have failed.

About the stance of the Republic: The only exposition about the current political picture we get from the big speech from Gleeson imo. As he puts it there, I'd say that after the fall of the old Empire, the First Order took over for them and while ruling over the galaxy, they left the few planets of the Republic in peace as long as they didn't cause any troubles. But these few planets of the Republic secretly supported the Resistance, which was doing some kind of a guerrilla war on the First Order. But they didn't attack the Republic because they had no proof that they were supporting them. Now after they discovered that there are indeed some links between the Republic and the Resistance, they decided to destroy the remaining planets. And there you go.... At least that was my take on the whole thing.

Light sabre fighting Rey and Finn: They aren't actually good at all with the light sabre. Neither Finn nor Rey. Finn gets his ass busted by that storm trooper and is basically only blocking Ren's attacks, not really fighting him. Also he only survives because Ren is more like playing with him. Same goes for when Rey fights against Ren. It's not fighting, it's more just blocking away the attacks. Only at the very end Rey pulls some good moves but even then it was to me more like lucky shots she gets because Ren isn't really fighting but trying to turn her.

---

So yeah, that's my new take on the biggest gripes I had with this movie. It's a shame there wasn't more exposition but yeah, I can accept what's there.

 

[The Chef]

Well even the people who didn't like Kylo liked the movie overall. I've yet to meet anyone outside of the internet who outright hated it.

What's surprised me are friends that are notoriously picky and jaded about films even loved it.

Oh totally. I work with quite a lot of people and Star Wars has been a conversation that I hear popping up all the time. Its always, 100% people talking about how much they loved it. Which fits the 94% RT rating.

People online on the other hand are a bunch of nut jobs.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I'm kinda hoping someone will name drop Mara Jade at some point just a cute reference. The legends universe does deserve some amount of respect.

I'm holding onto the vain hope that Mara Jade is Rey's mother and Luke is her father.

It will never happen, and if it did she'd almost certainly be the most OP force user ever.

But damn I wish it would.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I suspect people are going to strongly disagree with you given that Leia has to be saved by more capable male heroes in every single movie - usually multiple times per film - and the one time she's left to her own devices and doesn't need to be rescued (when she's on her own on Endor) she hangs out and plays dress-up with teddy bears rather than make her way back to her friends. (Oh, and she needs help from an also-male Ewok to take out a couple Stormtroopers.)



She's fumbling her way through pretty much every scenario in the entire movie.

- She wins the fight against the dudes who were trying to steal BB-8, but for a quick moment we almost believe that Finn was gonna need to step in to save her.

- She struggles to get her bearings when first flying the Falcon. The movie even goes so far as to literally handicap her by not giving her a co-pilot, symbolically establishing limitations to her skills.

- She fucks up with the fuses on Han's freighter, setting the Rathtars loose and almost killing everyone.

- She talks multiple times about just wanting to get BB-8 to the Resistance, then she'll go on her merry way back to Jakku and not get involved. This is a really consistent theme for her leading up to the moment where she refuses the lightsaber.

- She gets herself spotted in the woods on Takodana when the First Order arrives by being super cocksure and shooting a bunch of Stormtroopers, which draws them to her, even though she was already pretty well hidden.

- Kylo manhandles her pretty badly during their first encounter, literally paralyzing her.

- During her duel, Kylo literally backs her up to a cliff and remarks that she needs a teacher, which tells us how much skill she was exhibiting up to that point. She only wins because she lets the Force take over, which was first established as a guaranteed insta-win strategy in Episode IV.

It's not even that she uses the Force, because it's already subconsciously helped her dodge blows that would've otherwise killed her as she was running away. But it's when she consciously channels the Force at the end, she channels the dark side. That whole part of the fight isn't filmed, staged, or scored heroically. It's intentionally uneasy with Kylo Ren getting thrown off his balance in slow motion, Rey hitting him while he's down, her gritting her teeth, taking hard-ass swings. She's channeling her rage, unaware of how dangerous this is. The ground separating the two of them is purely to prevent her from going too far.

 

[Johndoey]

I wonder what they'll do with Finn and Poe for the next movie? Rey has a pretty clear path least to start.