Dubbedinenglish
Banned
The history of the saber.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
The history of the saber.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Even killing the kids?
LookAtMeGo
Member
He was being opressed. Hes just turning on his opressers. Its like, imagine you were in a Nazi concentration camp and you were a Nazi and it disgusted you how the innocent people were being slaughtered so you defected and joined the other side. Its not too far of a stretch to think you would end up killing Nazis.
What I found strange was it was like it happened all of a sudden. It seems like he had a good track record and this was his first offense. Why the sudden change of heart?
Glycemic Beg
Banned
The opening battle is his first and he was obviously unhappy with what took place. He acted pretty quickly to get away after that.
IMO, If his 'awakening' is: this is wrong, I'm not like them - then I don't think it's weird. If he recognizes that he's been created to be a mindless killing machine for a horrible, evil Order and that he's not one, that doesn't change the fact that the rest of them are. At that point it's about escape, and survival from the rest of the drones. There's much more to support that than,say, the idea that all the Stormtroopers grew up together as buddies, or some sort of fraternizing.
In addition, I think if he's lamenting fighting back because he might find another Stormtrooper like himself, it would probably be more awkward if that just goes away over the course of the movie.
So far as I know and have seen it's always with a button.
It is me being nitpicky but it just stands out as wrong as we've seen that saber being used quite a bit before and the hand position for igniting it is totally different from what we see in TFA. There's never been any pushing of two buttons either, it was always the large rectangular bit just above the ridges at the bottom to light it up, rather than what Finn and Rey do and use the red bit at the top.
Could just be poor editing.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I don't have a problem with him turning on them. I have a problem that despite seeing a comrade fall in battle, Finn turns around and kills more of his comrades without hesitation. If there was just a moment where Finn contemplated about killing them and then did it because he has no choice, I'd be fine with it. But I didn't see that reaction on either viewing.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Yeah I can agree with that for sure. Or they could have explained that the trooper that got killed was his best friend back at the base or something which is why he reacted the way he did.
I don't see why that has to be spelled out. He didn't fire on them until they're trying to get away in the TIE in the base. He's trying to escape, to survive. The alternative is dying, or whatever worse they do to him when they catch him. I don't see a reason we need a scene of 'contemplation' there. The 'no choice' is pretty obvious.
LookAtMeGo
Member
This also makes sense.
Or maybe him taking his helmet off when he is sweating and hyperventilating could be his moment of contemplation.
hipsterpants
Member
lol, I was about to come in here and post about some questions I had about Finn/the stormtroopers and see it's already being discussed. Yeah, I don't really think it makes much sense how easily something like 20+ years of brainwashing can be broken so quickly/easily, or how Finn can so easily kill his former comrades. Regardless of how they were raised he would have been growing up with some of these troops and have seen their faces at some point. Of course by having Finn in the first place they add in an uncomfortable human element to the stormtroopers and make them more than simple faceless mooks. At least George made them short-lived clones and not a bunch of kidnapped and brainwashed kids lol
I would say that I would like to get more Finn backstory, which I'm sure we'll get in a later episode when he gets a powerful "emotional" moment so he becomes more than a cartoon character that gets btfo by everyone he fights (he's still far and away the best character in the film). But that kind of ties in with this movie's problem of forcing the viewer to watch VIII and IX to get the full picture.
I would say that I would like to get more Finn backstory, which I'm sure we'll get in a later episode when he gets a powerful "emotional" moment so he becomes more than a cartoon character that gets btfo by everyone he fights (he's still far and away the best character in the film). But that kind of ties in with this movie's problem of forcing the viewer to watch VIII and IX to get the full picture.
Nostremitus
Member
Seeing someone violently die in front of you for the first time is reason enough to question what you're doing. No need for a sob story about his bff.
True. That's pretty much "OK, this is bullshit. I gotta get out of here." lol
The Librarian
Banned
Helio wants all our heroes to die by suicide or something
DragonSworne
Banned
Well, as Americans, we see people die so often that we need justification for someone to care about the death.
All Stormtroopers are suffering from mental illness
DragonSworne
Banned
As Americans, we don't care about the mentally ill and only use them as scapegoats to deny that we have a gun violence issue. I don't think the audience would connect.
The Librarian
Banned
Link please!
hipsterpants
Member
Yeah, but I'm sure that a good number of stormtroopers have seen their comrades get blown up with grenades and shit in front of them and they didn't turn. Not to mention 20 years of brainwashing. How did Finn turn so easily?
Eh, it has some good points to it tbh. There are some dumb criticisms but some of it is valid.
Nostremitus
Member
That's just dumb...
Seeing people die in movies or in videogames is nothing like seeing death in real life.
Finn needed no other motivation than facing death for the first time and gain perspective from it.
The only reason we had the scene with the dying trooper rubbing blood on Fine's helmet was so the audience would be able to tell him apart from everyone else.
There was an awakening in the force, he felt it.
heliosRAzi
Banned
When did I say that? Or are you just going to drive-by with snark again?
I think it needs to be since he's going from A to C without going to B. Like I said, just a small moment and I'd be fine with it. As it is, Finn sees a comrade fall, gets distraught over it, and then kills his comrades. It's a dissonance that slightly annoys me.
Like I said, these people were his life up until this point. Imagine turning on your family and friends, people you've spent every waking moment with, for whatever reason. There will be some hesitation. Just give me that small moment and I'm fine.
DragonSworne
Banned
LookAtMeGo
Member
There are 3 complaints that I think are overdone in this thread, one is Finn killing stormtroopers, I know people think they were his comrades or family even if a movie doesn't imply anything of sorts. It's probably how people think they think they would feel. I'm just amazed that so many people assume it's this way without any reasons whatsoever.
Second is death star-planet-whatever. I know why people don't like it being there, but I don't understand why you think it can be forgotten. It's a most powerful weapon, of course it will be made and made and made every time it gets destroyed, it wouldn't make sense otherwise. Like they forgot about it? Don't know how to make one anymore or what? What could cause it not being made again? And how that would make any sense?
Although I do agree with complaint that it felt rushed and like afterthought or something, not impactful enough and disposed very quickly and seemingly easily.
The third is Rey being able to stand up to Ren or being too good at everything. Yet again, she lives alone as a scavenger and does everything herself, including fighting, why she would be bad at anything if she survived for so long in conditions like that?
About complain I have, I don't like that people not being force users can use lightsabers, that's why I hope Finn is one that we can finish with this nonsense.
Lemme elaborate, if force isn't really required to use one, we would have a lot of people training to use it and using it, yet we had only Jedi and Sith for the longest time, I would like it to remain so because it makes much more sense than other way around.
Second is death star-planet-whatever. I know why people don't like it being there, but I don't understand why you think it can be forgotten. It's a most powerful weapon, of course it will be made and made and made every time it gets destroyed, it wouldn't make sense otherwise. Like they forgot about it? Don't know how to make one anymore or what? What could cause it not being made again? And how that would make any sense?
Although I do agree with complaint that it felt rushed and like afterthought or something, not impactful enough and disposed very quickly and seemingly easily.
The third is Rey being able to stand up to Ren or being too good at everything. Yet again, she lives alone as a scavenger and does everything herself, including fighting, why she would be bad at anything if she survived for so long in conditions like that?
About complain I have, I don't like that people not being force users can use lightsabers, that's why I hope Finn is one that we can finish with this nonsense.
Lemme elaborate, if force isn't really required to use one, we would have a lot of people training to use it and using it, yet we had only Jedi and Sith for the longest time, I would like it to remain so because it makes much more sense than other way around.
The Librarian
Banned
Yikes!
Rktk
Member
It's like George said, needs more planets and spaceships.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Oh, I get it. Finn just switches from "I don't want to kill" to killing FO people left and right pretty quick. It's not what Star Wars is about, but I imagine seeing him more conflicted and having more complex feelings about it in some other context would have been interesting.
DragonSworne
Banned
You can't just make a lightsaber. You need to be force sensitive to find the crystal required to make a lightsaber.
But that does beg the question, there use to be thousands of Jedi's, what happened to all their lightsabers? Why is no one using them?
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Presumably. If the Knights of Ren scene was in the past then it should've been there. Kylo does know Luke/Anakin's saber so I presume he had it at one point.
heliosRAzi
Banned
This is me. I think Finn would be more interesting if he was conflicted over it.
I loved that shit. Moustache twirling Sheev managed to accidently set up the rebellion.
FFS.
It had George's fingerprints all over it.
Considering Finn was kidnapped as a baby and he's 23, this indicates that the First Order should at the very least be established by 7 years after Endor (11 ABY following the old chronology). Probably even earlier.
I wonder if the old Empire is completely gone by that point or if there's a period where there is still an official Empire in the core that slowly melds into the New Republic while the FO is setting up shop.
I wonder if the old Empire is completely gone by that point or if there's a period where there is still an official Empire in the core that slowly melds into the New Republic while the FO is setting up shop.
LookAtMeGo
Member
This is his moment of conflict
Look at that face. Thats the look of a man who realizes what he might have to do to get away.
Look at that face. Thats the look of a man who realizes what he might have to do to get away.
I didn't mean permanently I just meant in the scene when Rey and Finn escape in the hunk of junk(falcon). It seemed that it would have been perfect if Poe popped up or was already with them to Pilot the Falcon. But they must have specifically wanted to focus on those two characters because Poe just disappears. That's just my conjecture though I could be totally wrong.
If SW taught us anything, it's that lightsabers can be lost, stolen, etc.
If anybody can use them, there would be bounty hunters going specifically after them, meaning stealing, all the time. And as you said Jedi die, lightsabers don't.
AlphaStriker
Member
Finn didn't say he was opposed to killing in general, he said he didn't want to kill for them, them being the First Order. He describes the First Order as slaughterers and adding "you don't know them like I do".
So clearly I don't think Finn sees the First Order as buddies but more as murderers.
So clearly I don't think Finn sees the First Order as buddies but more as murderers.
Kitschkraft
Member
This is his moment of conflict
Look at that face. Thats the look of a man who realizes what he might have to do to get away.
Yeah, I don't get why some are so caught up on this.
He's clearly fucked up about what just happened, and knows that he has to get the hell away from the FO.
Add in his "you don't know what I've seen..we all need to run" speech, and it paints a pretty clear picture of his motivations.
heliosRAzi
Banned
This is his moment of conflict
Look at that face. Thats the look of a man who realizes what he might have to do to get away.
I don't know, that looks more like a man who just been through some shit.
Kitschkraft
Member
What's the discrepancy?
0ptimusPayne
Member
I still think we're not getting the whole story from just one movie. The fact that he was the only one to break his brainwash out of the entire fleet( only based on nobody else defecting from the FO at the time), makes me think that he is force sensitive to some extent(Force awakens). From what I remember Phasma and Hux have never had this problem with other troopers.. Having the force break his brainwash helped him see his friend die, and all those other soldiers kill innocent people really made him say Fuck the FO Im out. Who knows maybe part of his story arch is to ultimately take down Phasma, and save other Stormtroopers from their brainwashing which will help dismantle the FO. As for him killing other troopers, would the audience rather him let them kill him or should he fight to survive? The dude was conflicted, and he ultimately made his choice to run away when he helped Poe. Hopefully episode 8 will shed more light
demosthenes
Member
They clearly had a plan in place for soldiers that have issues. I don't think it's a stretch to say that they've used it before if it was brought up.
heliosRAzi
Banned
To me, it doesn't seem like the moment he comes up with the plan to escape. He's decompressing from what he witnessed earlier. If there was something to acknowledge it, a moment's hesitation before blasting away at his former comrades or whatever, I think it would make him more interesting.
We are still talking about fucking Finn escaping a life of servitude and brainwashing and not feeling much remorse about his means to be free of it? Fiuuuuuuuck
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