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[Jex]

The Hong Kong Blu-ray does. And they're not Engrish subs either, they're done by Quarkboy who's a really good translator and the subs are most likely better than any fansub.

[urlhttp://dddhouse.com/v3/product_details.php?ProductID=11732/url]

An HK disc with good English? Is this a sign of the end times?

 

[hellclerk]

No it was this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT2GRpwwS8M

But thanks

Uguu!

That video reminded me so hardcore of how awesome Yuiichi was as a main character. :3

I should really rewatch Kanon (2006 of course) some time. It's been a while...

 

[jman2050]

jman and doomed1 is the new mac0din and ABF

I'm going to have to start making my posts three times longer for that to really be true.

Not that I'm incapable, but I have better uses of my time.

 

[Branduil]

But I see characters as their own "persons" in a regard. I'm very aware they aren't physically real, but they are "real" in the metaphorical sense, so the characters that can do the best "I reasonably exist" impression are top in my book. The issue with Madoka's characters (short QB, who at least has his motives straight), is that they're wooden and empty. So you know, the uncanny valley applies to behavior too, and considering the tone and pacing of Madoka, this wasn't an intentional choice. It wasn't lampshaded and parodied through humor, and the pacing is too predictable and writing too stiff to go the subtle subversion route.

Well, there's no accounting for taste. I'll just say I think you're pretty much completely wrong about Madoka's characters, and I think it is impossible for you to fairly judge them given the circumstances of your watching the show.

 

[zeroshiki]

I'm going to have to start making my posts three times longer for that to really be true.

Not that I'm incapable, but I have better uses of my time.

I'm physically incapable of making lengthy posts. I just basically tune out halfway and forget what it is I was arguing about.

 

[Hellsing321]

jman and doomed1 is the new mac0din and ABF

They're small time until they reach the character count for a single post and have to spread out their response into a second one.

 

[Jex]

Give it a few more episodes before passing judgement on it. Unless you read the manga too because if so then you have something wrong with you if you didn't like it.

Oh no, I thought parts of it were good. If this was last season, I'd have easily committed to watching more.

I may still check out an episode later down the line.

 

[hellclerk]

Well, there's no accounting for taste. I'll just say I think you're pretty much completely wrong about Madoka's characters, and I think it is impossible for you to fairly judge them given the circumstances of your watching the show.

I can say the same thing to you and how you went in thinking it was going to be good. Confirmation bias works both ways. The whole "I watched it to bash it" was a joke, but I went in so I could talk about it on the same level. I don't mind being proven wrong either, but I need some evidence first. Why am I wrong?

 

[Jex]

Spoiler

K-On!'s plot still holds more water than Madoka's

>:3

Oh, so this is how we entered crazy town.

This guy is hilarious, I love him. Certainly he and his weird cadence provide an interesting counterpoint to sane-when-he's-not-yelling-about-unicorns-and-Paul-Chapman Daryl and the sane-all-the-time Clarissa. It just wouldn't be the same without him around.

You're right, of course. Discussions are for my interesting with people who have some crazy opinions, like Paul Chapman.

They're the same insomuch as they're panderbait to the people who don't like them.

Or even for those who do like them!

I refuse to believe that Yui is mentally older than an 8-year-old.

Or six-year-old.

 

[InfiniteNine]

An HK disc with good English? Is this a sign of the end times?

Maybe they finally wised up and started stealing the tracks from fansubbers!

 

[Jex]

Maybe they finally wised up and started stealing the tracks from fansubbers!

I remember buying Planetes online and discovering that it had English and Chinese sub tracks. Suffice to say, it was one of the worst translation I'd ever seen.

Cute girls doing funny things vs Manly men doing funny things.

This is indeed a difficult battle.

Well, at least K-ON isn't boring like Cromartie.

Also, I have a better Cromartie .gif

 

[hellclerk]

Well, at least K-ON isn't boring like Cromartie.

Also, I have a better Cromartie .gif

CromartieHighSchool-Badass.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]
Rightclick, Save

 

[Infinite Justice]

I remember buying Planetes online and discovering that it had English and Chinese sub tracks. Suffice to say, it was one of the worst translation I'd ever seen.

Well, at least K-ON isn't boring like Cromartie.

Also, I have a better Cromartie .gif

Shots fired?

 

[shintoki]

I feel like I should give K-on a rewatch with all this praise it's getting here.

 

[Hellsing321]

I feel like I should give K-on a rewatch with all this praise it's getting here.

I've tried on 3 separate occasions to get through the first season of K-On and I always stop on the 6 or 7 episode. I just don't have it in me.

 

[InfiniteNine]

I've tried on 3 separate occasions to get through the first season of K-On and I always stop on the 6 or 7 episode.

That's what happened when I tried to watch it again! Except the first time I actually enjoyed it for some reason.

 

[Jex]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I have no appropriate .gif for this.

If all the bad directors retired like this, we'd only be left with good ones!

That's the thing though. Madoka only works as a subversion of the "I want to use the power of love to help my friends!" trope of Sailor Moon or PreCure or whatever. The constant delay of that presumably inevitable moment is where the tension comes from. It's not like the show is a character study on Madoka's internal conflict when it comes to learning the truth behind the fiction of becoming a magical girl.

I'm pretty sure I've linked to this once or twice already, but still http://ogiuemaniax.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/seeing-the-darkness-of-madoka-magica/.

 

[Crash Station]

Well, at least K-ON isn't boring like Cromartie.

0_o

This statement is the exact opposite of what is true.

 

[firehawk12]

I have no appropriate .gif for this.

If all the bad directors retired like this, we'd only be left with good ones!

Kannagi says boo.

 

[hellclerk]

0_o

This statement is the exact opposite of what is true.

 

[InfiniteNine]

I have no appropriate .gif for this.

If all the bad directors retired like this, we'd only be left with good ones!

I like pie. I like Kannagi so you can burn...BURN!

 

[Crash Station]

Can never tell with you guys, especially since Jex and my tastes couldn't be further apart.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Cromartie isn't boring. It's just stupid.

 

[hellclerk]

Cromartie isn't boring. It's just stupid.

BRILLIANTLY STUPID!

 

[Crash Station]

Cromartie isn't boring. It's just stupid.

:/

You're demoted to B class.

But yeah, not really for non-fans of absurdist humor.

 

[Jex]

Or people get scared of getting taking chances and getting sacked.

He retired because he poorly directed (well, not Steins;Gate poorly (well, at least that was tone consistent)) an okay show. Then he retired. I don't think he was sacked.

0_o

This statement is the exact opposite of what is true.

I know, it's like I was reading one of your comments!

 

[Branduil]

I can say the same thing to you and how you went in thinking it was going to be good. Confirmation bias works both ways. The whole "I watched it to bash it" was a joke, but I went in so I could talk about it on the same level. I don't mind being proven wrong either, but I need some evidence first. Why am I wrong?

Except I didn't go into it expecting anything except what could already be expected the creators of it, that is to say a show with a unique visual style. I hoped it would be good but I hope that of everything I watch, and people hardly accuse me of liking everything I watch. This is different from arguing a show isn't all that, sight unseen, and then watching the show to confirm the correctness of your argument.

I already wrote on previous pages why I think the complaints about Sayaka, for example, were a bit off-base. I think narrative context is a very important thing in regards to characters. Characters don't exist in a vacuum, but are shaped by the plot, and so characters that would be uninteresting in one context can be made interesting by the events that change them. But like I said, I doubt this will lead to a productive discussion to continue arguing about this.

 

[InfiniteNine]

He retired because he poorly directed (well, not Steins;Gate poorly (well, at least that was tone consistent)) an okay show. Then he retired. I don't think he was sacked.

Yeah, just woke up so revised that. Read that wrong completely, so I turned it into Kannagi love. Not sure why they are doing Steins;Gate in fast forward, but it seems they where just trying to get to the parts relevant to the overall story. They have about 24 episodes so I don't know what that is all about.

 

[Dresden]

Merry 13 was like a poorly animated, badly directed parody of Casshern Sins. Almost as laughably bad as a not first/final episode of a Shaft show.

This isn't making it any easier to watch the last two episodes. Talk about going into the shitter.

 

[shintoki]

Cromartie isn't boring. It's just stupid.

I watched a few episodes, found it pretty meh. Typical, first episode was the best. Each following episode dragged out too long.

:/

You're demoted to B class.

You better be on top of that list if you're going to keep rating people.

 

[JKTrix]

The only thing that could have made Cromartie better is if it had robots.

Spoiler

/forcingthejoke

 

[Jex]

This isn't making it any easier to watch the last two episodes. Talk about going into the shitter.

Anime going downhill at the end? Never!

 

[cj_iwakura]

Why can't we have nice thing like this? The box along made me want to get it, is the show good?

God yes. It's one of my favorite shows of all time(and my partial namesake).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p68-gQk1rjY

And the blu-ray restore is unparallelled gorgeousness.

 

[hellclerk]

Except I didn't go into it expecting anything except what could already be expected the creators of it, that is to say a show with a unique visual style. I hoped it would be good but I hope that of everything I watch, and people hardly accuse me of liking everything I watch. This is different from arguing a show isn't all that, sight unseen, and then watching the show to confirm the correctness of your argument.

My opinion of the show is much more charitable (thanks mostly to QB) than it was before I watched it. Which would you rather? Someone badmouthing the show talking out of his ass or someone who's watched and carefully analyzed it?

I already wrote on previous pages why I think the complaints about Sayaka, for example, were a bit off-base. I think narrative context is a very important thing in regards to characters. Characters don't exist in a vacuum, but are shaped by the plot, and so characters that would be uninteresting in one context can be made interesting by the events that change them. But like I said, I doubt this will lead to a productive discussion to continue arguing about this.

Well, I was more arguing against your justification for it. It was weak and actually worked against you. Additionally, I felt Sayaka was a very one dimensional character because there was only one direction she could go. I like to THINK she took on a new light right before

Spoiler

her transformation

, but that could just as easily be an echo of that single dimension, it all depends on how you view it (was reminiscent of a classic

Spoiler

"heroic loss of faith leading to downfall" setup. "Honto Baka" could have referred to either her foolishness in losing faith or her foolishness in having faith. If the former, that's a positive development. If the latter, not so much. I like to imagine the former

). You see, Sayaka was really painful at times and her mood and intonation never really made all that much sense to me. She was reactive when it was convenient and introspective when it was convenient. Like Jman likes, she was a tool of the plot in many ways, and that frustrated and annoyed me.

And again, that's my opinion. An individual is welcome to enjoy the Twilight series, for all of its one dimensional escapist bullshit. The fact that it's all one dimensional bullshit doesn't change the fact that individual gained enjoyment out of it, and that enjoyment stays real, no matter how much I rage at the inept and frustrating writing. So don't think I'm trying to say that you're not allowed to enjoy Madoka, I just don't think it's really that special is all. And I feel that I've give good reason behind it.

 

[Dresden]

enma fucking where

where

where

oh god

 

[InfiniteNine]

I kinda want to get that HK BD for Disappearance even though Endless Eight effectively killed my interest in the series.

 

[Lafiel]

enma fucking where

where

where

oh god

You made the thread to early.

 

[Jex]

Now, understand that the "protective" range is wider than you're giving me credit for here and comes through in ways you wouldn't expect, plus might bring about co-feelings and fantasies, but the primary element of moe is that protective reaction and can be to do anything from just being there for support to protecting from actual imminent harm. There is a good reason I chose the definition I did, and it was after carefully reading my sources, which, frankly, are the best in talking about this sub-culture phenomenon called "moe".

Again, a definition looser than I posited makes use of moe as a literary element practically useless. Now, other emotions might ACCOMPANY the chara-moe, and that protectiveness itself might even take on different forms, but boiled down, it's all essentially the same reaction.

I understand you’re wedded to the ‘protection reaction’ as a definition but I really don’t think that cuts it. You’re limiting the range of responses moe may inspire for no useful reason. Whether or not you deem it useful as a literary element is irrelevant.

Instead, I’d say that moe is about a euphoric response to fantasy characters or representations of them.

In this case I just don't have the data or research to support anything other than female characters. Anything else would be conjecture and anecdotal. Though you'd have to admit that male-moe is MUCH rarer than the female driven variety.

If you don’t have access to the research, and haven’t spoken to fujoshi or investigated yaoi, why would I have to admit anything?

"These women zealously explore moe in yaoi, a subgenre of shoujo manga featuring male homosexual romance. Yaoi is a prime source of moe in simultaneous fixation on pure relationships among beautiful young boys and regular depictions of perverse sex acts such as rape, incest and torture. Much of this is already familiar from the discussion of otaku and their beautiful girl-child characters. Androgynous 'male' couples are positioned as what fujoshi call 'pure fantasy,' familiar from the previous discussion of otaku indulging fantasy unconnected to, or free from, reality. Men who resist their gender roles imagine romance free from the confines of manhood (defined through work and responsibility), and their moe character takes the form of an innocent girl-child who does not demand masculine excellence; likewise, women who resist hetero-normative gender roles imagine romance free from the confines of womanhood (defined through childbirth and responsibility), and their moe characters take the form of homosexual boys who do not settle into domestic roles. Just as moe provides men a chance to indulge the feminine, it provides women a chance to indulge the masculine. Yaoi erases the female presence because fans say female-male or even female-female couples are too 'raw' (namanamashii). Put another way, the reality of relationships is removed from yaoi to make the moe response possible. Similarly, Mark McLelland has noted that yaoi, while 'virtual pornography' focusing on seemingly underage boys, is 'purely fictional' and poses no threat to real children (McLelland 2005). In fact, fans stress that yaoi characters are not gay or even men; the ambiguous yaoi 'male' is quite literally a body without organs. Most fujoshi write yaoi based on the male heroes, friends or rivals found in shounen (for boys) manga, for example Captain Tsubasa. Most fujoshi write yaoi doujinshi based on heroes, friends or rivals found in shounen (for boys) manga. The touch of a hand, declaration of shared fate, a stray glance, all of these are moments reinterpreted as indirect expressions of affection and the keys to unlocking romance. Fujoshi pick up on implicit tensions in male relations and playfully imagine transgressive intimacy.”

Also, Shinji is REALLY stretching it as far as moe goes, but not rule 63 Shinji, which is where the (cultural) double standard exists! (And I pointed that out)

How is it stretching anything? Shinji is a huge source of moe. Can you think of a character more in need of your love and care, if we’re to go with your definition.

Because K-ON! has a narrative? It's a relatively simple narrative of high schoolers playing in a rock band and their ordinary lives. I could see this stuff happening in real life, and ordinary life has often been heavily exploited for purposes of narrative, which is basically just characters, setting, conflict. There aren't any requirements for how complex this has to be nor how "epic".

I’d agree that those scenes are linked by an underlying idea, which you can call a narrative, but to say such narrative strengths the moe feeling seems like the opposite of what moe is about.

At least for the first season, K-On! features a number of linked up scenes where cute girls do cute things. That’s what’s enjoyable for moe fans, I don’t see them caring about some wider narrative. I mean, that’s what the database is all about, right?

”Azuma uses the example of dating simulator games, where a player's choices determine the outcome of relationships with characters of the opposite sex. The player engages a moe character as a pure being and his one true love, and then imagines perverse sexual interactions with the same character or philanders with other characters. To feel moe for all characters in all situations, the narrative connecting characters or moments in time is de-emphasized. In fact, just as narratives are de-emphasized to focus on characters, the focus can further shift from characters to constituent parts that inspire moe, or 'moe elements' (moe youso)… This is what Azuma refers to as 'the database,' a collection of design and personality points, characters and situations that can produce moe. Narratives and characters are deconstructed – i.e., emptied of depth and removed from context – and rearticulated in multiple ways by consumers in pursuit of moe.”

“The crucible of moe is a de-emphasis on the reality of the character and relations with the character. The people I spoke with described this as 'pure fantasy' – pure in the sense that it is unrelated to, and unpolluted by, reality. To produce this fantasy, characters are removed from a narrative (=context) and flattened (=emptied of depth). The response to these characters is de-centralized, unbounded euphoria, an affect that is verbalized as 'moe.' Azuma highlights the otaku remix culture in which it is possible to also isolate a character's constituent elements, insert these into a 'database' and then rearticulate new characters in pursuit of moe.”

“However, moe characters are fantasy forms animated by fluid desires, and as such cannot easily be divided into static categories. A range of possible responses is present in the same character. A pure character can be approached as erotic, or vice versa, and the elements are rearranged in fan productions to stimulate moe. Further, Azuma has successfully argued of dating simulator games that the propriety of the character is not always challenged by relative access. The narrative connecting moments of pleasure is absent, so the character's status as pure can coexist with perverse sex acts. This challenges Shingo's third and fourth assertions, but it is not irreconcilable. As Shingo himself states, 'two-dimensional characters are moe precisely because they are depicted in two dimensions, and it is this reduction, simplification, lack of pretense – it is this lack that allows the heroine to preserve her virtue unquestioned by the viewer' (Shingo 2005)”

 

[Branduil]

My opinion of the show is much more charitable (thanks mostly to QB) than it was before I watched it. Which would you rather? Someone badmouthing the show talking out of his ass or someone who's watched and carefully analyzed it?


Well, I was more arguing against your justification for it. It was weak and actually worked against you. Additionally, I felt Sayaka was a very one dimensional character because there was only one direction she could go. I like to THINK she took on a new light right before

Spoiler

her transformation

, but that could just as easily be an echo of that single dimension, it all depends on how you view it (was reminiscent of a classic

Spoiler

"heroic loss of faith leading to downfall" setup. "Honto Baka" could have referred to either her foolishness in losing faith or her foolishness in having faith. If the former, that's a positive development. If the latter, not so much. I like to imagine the former

). You see, Sayaka was really painful at times and her mood and intonation never really made all that much sense to me. She was reactive when it was convenient and introspective when it was convenient. Like Jman likes, she was a tool of the plot in many ways, and that frustrated and annoyed me.

And again, that's my opinion. An individual is welcome to enjoy the Twilight series, for all of its one dimensional escapist bullshit. The fact that it's all one dimensional bullshit doesn't change the fact that individual gained enjoyment out of it, and that enjoyment stays real, no matter how much I rage at the inept and frustrating writing. So don't think I'm trying to say that you're not allowed to enjoy Madoka, I just don't think it's really that special is all. And I feel that I've give good reason behind it.

Comparing it to Twilight? Now you're just trolling. Like I said, trying to discuss this with you is a waste of time.

 

[Uchip]

Comparing it to Twilight? Now you're just trolling. Like I said, trying to discuss this with you is a waste of time.

I tried
he just doesnt get that its a homage to old school magical girl anime
and the best of its kind. Unless someone can suggest a better magical girl anime?
dont even say Mai Hime, that show was riddled with fanservice and pointless episodes

 

[Jex]

I have a sneaking suspicion this page is doomed.

 

[firehawk12]

I tried
he just doesnt get that its a homage to old school magical girl anime
and the best of its kind. Unless someone can suggest a better magical girl anime?
dont even say Mai Hime, that show was riddled with fanservice and pointless episodes

It's not an homage... well, insomuch as Braid is an homage to Super Mario Brothers anyway.

I have a sneaking suspicion this page is doomed1.

At least I'm not defending K-On or Endless Eight or why adaptations have a responsibility to theme. I feel like I can kick back and watch the madness tihs time around.

Although I feel at least a bit more impartial in that I understand the manipulation that is going on in Madoka but I'm willing to enjoy being manipulated.

 

[zeroshiki]

I tried
he just doesnt get that its a homage to old school magical girl anime
and the best of its kind. Unless someone can suggest a better magical girl anime?
dont even say Mai Hime, that show was riddled with fanservice and pointless episodes

WTF?

Cardcaptor Sakura is easily better than Madoka.

 

[Uchip]

WTF?

Cardcaptor Sakura is easily better than Madoka.

you have got to be trolling

 

[pieatorium]

WTF?

Cardcaptor Sakura is easily better than Madoka.

I'm fairly sure your reading what he said backwards

 

[zeroshiki]

you have got to be trolling

?

I'm trolling if I think CCS is better than Madoka? Really?

 

[Uchip]

It's not an homage... well, insomuch as Braid is an homage to Super Mario Brothers anyway.

im saying they kept ONE full transformation scene in episode one among other things
just to show the roots
they could have easily gone for a more serious magic approach such as Darker than Black
but thats not the point

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

you have got to be trolling

CCS is better than Madoka, though. Which is not to say that Madoka isn't fantastic, but CCS is one of the all time greats.

 

[Dresden]

You made the thread to early.

Tell me about it.

I feel like I can kick back and watch the madness tihs time around.

You've run out of things to defend now that KnT stopped airing.

 

[Uchip]

?

I'm trolling if I think CCS is better than Madoka? Really?

no but your opinion is stuck in nostalgia mode perhaps