Baemono
Member
The funny part is that they already did it once
[Windows Central] 'Clair Obscur: Expedition 33' utterly destroys Square Enix's gaslighting over Final Fantasy turn-based combat
- Thread starter Topher
- Start date
Madflavor
Member
FFXVI and FFVII Remake began their developments around 2015/2016. Since then we had Persona 5, Clair Obscur, and Metaphor come out to commercial success and critical acclaim. It seems also a given that Clair's longterm sales will likely pass XVI's. There was also the Dragon Quest III HD-2D remake that did very well.
If Square doesn't return Final Fantasy to Turn Based with XVII, they would be completely fucking retarded.
If Square doesn't return Final Fantasy to Turn Based with XVII, they would be completely fucking retarded.
Interfectum
Member
If FF17 doesn't launch on Switch 2 and Steam and go turn based just pack up shop.
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
Only if you want it to. Unequip the rings and turn up the difficulty if you don't want it to "play itself".
My take is let developers make the game they want to make. Let them try things they want to try. Last thing we need is for every last game in a genre to be exactly the same as the others.
Also, Final Fantasy hasn't been purely turn based since FF13-2 almost 15 years ago. That franchise has issues, but combat system is not it. It's changed with literally every game in the series.
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Square-Enix probably thinks it's failing because they didn't make it pretty or flashy enough. They gotta quadruple down. RTX 5090 exclusive. That'll do it.
This is a fair take, but it's also the exact reason why FF16 failed. Developers can make what they want by ignoring what made the series successful, but they only have themselves to blame when it fails. Don't blame the player base or fans of the brand.
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Jinzo Prime
Member
Aion002
Member
It would. Just like it happened on Stranger of Paradise.
Each main line FF is different, that's the whole appeal. A new world, new characters and a new battle system.
For me that's the main thing of the series. But for many, it seems that's not interesting anymore.
They want the same old stagnated turn based system combat.
People are praising Expedition 33 like there's no tomorrow, yet it's a game that could be made on the ps3. It uses Persona combat combined with Shadow Hearts qte, the only new thing is that they added qte on evasion.... The whole aesthetics and music are clearly inspired by other games and they even added stuff from Souls games.
The graphics are quite last gen and the character design is boring and generic.
The only things I enjoyed from it were the world art style, the enemy design and the ost, which again are clearly inspired by other games.
I tried to like this game a lot, but I just can't, the more praise I read online about it, the more astonished I get.
Brigandier
Member
I can see FF7 part 3 and FF17 being the last single player FFs for a long time.
SE just can't manage their studios, high staff numbers and huge costs, Always chasing super high level visuals and CGI, Very long development times and always issues with scrapping and restarting development.
The directors are out of touch and don't seem to know or care who the series core audience are and would rather chase trends and copy other publishers methods.
How can any director play FF16 and think that battle system is great and worthy of the FF name? It was absolutely disgraceful how easy it was, the damage sponge enemies and the lack of any feeling of force or danger with moves and enemy AI etc
This series is finished if it doesn't go back to getting the basics right with a director who can read the room.
SE just can't manage their studios, high staff numbers and huge costs, Always chasing super high level visuals and CGI, Very long development times and always issues with scrapping and restarting development.
The directors are out of touch and don't seem to know or care who the series core audience are and would rather chase trends and copy other publishers methods.
How can any director play FF16 and think that battle system is great and worthy of the FF name? It was absolutely disgraceful how easy it was, the damage sponge enemies and the lack of any feeling of force or danger with moves and enemy AI etc
This series is finished if it doesn't go back to getting the basics right with a director who can read the room.
Jinzo Prime
Member
No they are not. Flying Waters is one the most beautiful and evocative locations in a video game, ever.
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Aion002
Member
It's the art style carrying.
Again the art is good, but technically it's quite limited.
Kinda like FFXVI, the scenario is pretty, but it could be made on the ps4.
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proandrad
Member
So the only thing it takes is making one of the greatest games of all time. You think making a 8.0 FF is going to sell 20million copies because it's turn based?
Hmm I wonder can anyone else think of a massively successful turn based RPG that won multiple GoTY awards not called pokemon recently?
No no, I just can't seem to put a finger on it hmmmmmmm...
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Madflavor
Member
Looks pretty "critically successful" to me.
Thank you, Rebirth was critically acclaimed and well received by fans, aside from some vocal upset ones. Commercially though it had quite a muted performance, but that speaks to many deep rooted issues, not the quality of the game itself.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Glass Prison
Member
I'm yet to read the article, and I'm currently playing through Clair Obscur (just finished Act 1).
I`m really enjoying the game, but I think the parry and dodge systems completely trivializes the whole "turn based tactics" of the genre. It's a kill switch... you don't need to be efficient, you just need to learn the timing of each attack.
I`m really enjoying the game, but I think the parry and dodge systems completely trivializes the whole "turn based tactics" of the genre. It's a kill switch... you don't need to be efficient, you just need to learn the timing of each attack.
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STARSBarry
Gold Member
*asks for example*
*given example*
*makes up arbitrary reason to ignore example*
"Oh why are there no examples or turn based games that sold well?"
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diffusionx
Gold Member
You missed the point. Square can make their games with whatever shitty combat they want, but they can't justify it by claiming TB isn't popular or desired by gamers because it's just objectively not true. They don't need to "modernize" FF by getting rid of TB when popular and beloved games like Persona and BG3 fully embrace TB.
LavitzSlambert
Member
Hmm, interesting that 20 year period coincides with the downturn in reception to FF games. So long as there was an actual XVI in the works as well, yes, people would have praised XVI if it was a spin-off like Stranger of Paradise (which was not a HUGE title, but was well received). The issue is SE has abandoned the numeric FF games as true RPGs and keep telling fans THEY are the ones wrong because they want to market these games to the largest demographics rather than to their core fans.
Square-Enix still knows turned based combat, they have so many games still with it, but they are the lower tier budget ones :
The problem is every goddamn fucking FF director and management won't touch turned based with a ten foot pole for Final Fantasy franchise, thinking they can chase the CoD crowd on consoles and not being satisfied with 10M units sold.
They always find excuses, "the polls want action games", "the HD towns are hard to make", etc.
And you have this French studio coming in with 30 peoples and a small budget schooling everyone, not just Square enix, everyone.
We can talk about them also schooling other RPG makers with the facial expressions in this game, the animations during dialogues which are beautiful, while you have Starfield and the likes with the most fucking derp dialogue and facial animations.
FF has lost its roots. So many iterations and years of trying to chase the mainstream crowd that the new generation has no fucking clue what turned based even means anymore, or they are rediscovering it with games like Clair Obscur.
Same for Baldur's Gate 3. Shall we dig into the early BG3 threads where they announced the game would be turned based and how negative the reactions were? I don't understand these peoples. Peoples who bitched on turned based all these years for god knows why, ruined perfectly fine franchises because corporations chase these peoples' pockets.
So FF has a big problem. The teams over there are inefficient. The directors screw up and often get replaced. They chase cinematic action which probably costs a fortune to develop compared to turn based. Their budget is so astronomical that they're never satisfied with sales.
I wouldn't mind either Monolith Soft to go back turned based jRPG too by the way, as much as I love Xenoblade franchises, I wish it would drop the mmo type combat and go more like Xenosaga/Xenogears
So you eloquently summarized the issue here. And holy shit, THANK YOU for pointing out the cost trap SE is falling into. Story driven, mostly linear turn based JRPGs with a handful of sidequests are perfect contenders to make focused experiences. All of the dynamic systems and openness, and mechanical complexity of genres of games they are trying to make FF into are too much for these games and not valued nearly as much by the FF fanbase. They do not work well with the scope and scale of FF RPGs, it's never been more apparent than the MMO based sidequests in XVI, an entire game filled with "accept quest, talk to local, move to location and battle, return to local and get treated with a text based thank you and generic rewards".
I agree people are too closed minded and don't even understand turn based combat anymore. People don't want old shitty Square turn based combat where the most effective way to damage is using the basic attack command, or like in 6 where you get a ton of moves each character maybe does one or two actions every single time.
I'm going to make a comparison that it's like baseball - you have people who can't appreciate a slower paced game with strategy. They think the nature of the game is what's wrong, when there are just elements of it that can be fixed. Few people want to go to a game that could be upwards for 3.5 to 4 hours with much of that time watching a pitcher get setup, or a batter taking a break for a few practice swings while everyone else stands around. But as the MLB learned by implementing new rules, there is still a healthy baseball fanbase. I hope SE wakes up to this as well, but knowing SE they will probably change the objective of the next mainline FF partway through and release something subpar, then mistake the other reasons for "see, turn based doesn't work" once again.
I enjoyed XVI's story, world, music, etc. If that game had any actual RPG elements other than shitty MMO sidequests, I'm convinced it would have been better received. If it had a FF7R or ATB combat system, it would been considered a top tier FF game.
saintjules
Member
I only played an hour so far. It's nice. Hoping to get more into it tonight at some point.
I do notice that lip sync problem people have expressed early on. Are there any plans to address this?
Sure. Technically you're still waiting for your turn to create an 'action' of some kind.
I do notice that lip sync problem people have expressed early on. Are there any plans to address this?
Sure. Technically you're still waiting for your turn to create an 'action' of some kind.
proandrad
Member
Because that game has an extreme high bar in everything else it provides which Final Fantasy hasn't provided on that level ever.
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
I mean, Square used to have a knack for that between 1994 to 2001
proandrad
Member
Those games don't meet their current sales expectations.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
After this game, the next one will be turn based.
Thabass
Member
No, I will continue to defend it because outside of the whack story, the gameplay loop is quite good and it's combat is even better. I do agree that Square needs to lessen it's noose around turn based not being a thing in the series, but it's not like the games have been bad, they are just not what people want in the series. If you didn't like VII's combat and/or XVI's combat, then that's a you problem. I personally LOVED the combat in VII Rebirth and XVI's combat was good, but it's definitely not the version FF should be going forward. I had no problem with them experimenting with system and it was very good, just not what I am looking for in an RPG. FFXVI has other problems other than it's combat.
I guess you never saw it coming, huh? (IYKYK)
I really do think that Square does need to stop thinking they need to reinvent the wheel with Final Fantasy. That's was never something they did in the past, so why would you do it now? I can chalk it up to fatigue in doing turn based combat, which I get and it's fine, but it's very clear and extremely obvious that, that's not what people want: They want turn based in their RPGs that they make. So...fucking do that.
Giving people want they want isn't selling out when you're a company trying to make money, it's just good business sense. If you want to be more creative, go build a new game. Your audience already has the expectation of what Final Fantasy should be. So, give them that.
I want to believe, but I doubt it.
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If FF wants to be a major force again it needs to sell in the 20 million+ range. It is still stuck in a rut like Zelda was before botw.
Action combat is not the issue. That's actually smart for SE to move away from turn based. The problem is the combat in 16 and 7r is just more tedious than fun. I think if they went with something like the KH2 system or Souls style combat it would attract more mainstream players.
They also need to beef up the rpg aspect. 16 barely qualifies as one.
Action combat is not the issue. That's actually smart for SE to move away from turn based. The problem is the combat in 16 and 7r is just more tedious than fun. I think if they went with something like the KH2 system or Souls style combat it would attract more mainstream players.
They also need to beef up the rpg aspect. 16 barely qualifies as one.
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proandrad
Member
They need to stop making games with budgets that need +10million dollar sales to be a success. They should scale back the budget and cater towards their core audience. If they make a decent to great game it will sell a few million, they will make money and the fans will be happy. If they fucking nail it and make a masterpiece they will print money regardless what the combat is.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I think SE just needs to keep experimenting until they land on a system that works.
Blaming them for heading more towards real-time combat without factoring in how unfashionable and critically punished turn-based combat was for the best part of 20 years seems kinda dishonest to me.
There's no sales benefit in going turn-based versus real-time, that's going to be much more the result of the overall quality of the game and the IP generally.
Clair Obscure is very stylish looking and to be honest I think its riding the coat-tails of Persona and Re-Fantazio, which means that although it'll probably do well I kinda wonder what the ceiling is.
The funny part is prior to release most people were writing its chances off! Which really shows what a lie the idea that being turn-based is a short-cut to sales greatness is.
Blaming them for heading more towards real-time combat without factoring in how unfashionable and critically punished turn-based combat was for the best part of 20 years seems kinda dishonest to me.
There's no sales benefit in going turn-based versus real-time, that's going to be much more the result of the overall quality of the game and the IP generally.
Clair Obscure is very stylish looking and to be honest I think its riding the coat-tails of Persona and Re-Fantazio, which means that although it'll probably do well I kinda wonder what the ceiling is.
The funny part is prior to release most people were writing its chances off! Which really shows what a lie the idea that being turn-based is a short-cut to sales greatness is.
Zacfoldor
Member
Yes. In fact FFVIII and many other turn based games have this type of active gameplay. In FFVIII you could tap R1 during Squall's attack and cause the gunblade to fire. During Zell's limit break one was required to input combos as fast as possible during a predetermined time limit. Each combo stopped the timer until it was time to re-enter the next one. A noob might get 1 combo in. By end game, a pro is getting many more. Is FFVIII an action rpg or turn based?
To turn this around, Fallout 3 is an action rpg that has VATS. Is it turn based?
Just because there is some active elements doesn't mean a game isn't turn based and the opposite is also true.
The best games provide fun during each turn and in fact the best games use novelty and humor during turn based encounters in order to make each character feel different and to add some interesting dynamics during gameplay.
Furthermore, VAGRANT STORY is the absolute best game ever that does this and it is required iirc. Vagrant Story gameplay features a timed combat system. Players must perform button presses at specific timings to chain attacks and maximize damage iirc. It probably does this system best. We REALLY need a vagrant story remake. It has been so long I don't remember if this is actually true or not, but to me, I remember active turns in VS. VS was also hard as fuck and designed for multiple playthrus. By the end of the first playthru or just the rock guy, you are by that time just starting to understand how the game actually works. It would take 2 full runs to get a real grasp of it. It is that good.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
Yet if you constantly fail to meet your sales predictions - maybe it the predictions that are the problem, not the sales?
Thabass
Member
I don't think that will happen, but yeah, I don't think they need to spend the amount of money that they do on it. I think we also need to see a post-mortem on Clair Obscur. I would like to know the challenges and tribulations they had to go through to create this game with only 33 people. The more we know how they did it, the more we can see how Square could apply it to their design philosophy. I think Square is taking things too seriously in trying to one up their game when they can just make a good traditional RPG and still make it look like a high production value product.
But I don't think this is solely a Square problem, but more of an industry wide thing. There's so many companies that go overboard with production and cost that it's a little bit crazy. Downscaling will help Square 100%.
Zacfoldor
Member
I'm worried about the FFIX remake. I just want new art and same gameplay, not new game....
Also, it was NOT a good idea to mix in MMOs into the mainline FF games. That fucked the IP way more than anything else.
They did it so they could prostitute the IP in order to advertise their MMO games.
Single player gamers turned their backs.
THEN FFXIII and FFXV sucked ass back to back and were not turn based, and the IP was no more. "And Seath the Scaleless betrayed his own, and the Dragons were no more" - It pisses me off that they've had all this time to expand on their good properties and they've made foamstars and the avengers game, but I'm not gonna let Square Enix know. They aren't that important to me. Inept. Rebirth was a great game with flaws and Triangle Strategy is great. Many of their games are great, but their big budget games all screwed up.
Also, it was NOT a good idea to mix in MMOs into the mainline FF games. That fucked the IP way more than anything else.
They did it so they could prostitute the IP in order to advertise their MMO games.
Single player gamers turned their backs.
THEN FFXIII and FFXV sucked ass back to back and were not turn based, and the IP was no more. "And Seath the Scaleless betrayed his own, and the Dragons were no more" - It pisses me off that they've had all this time to expand on their good properties and they've made foamstars and the avengers game, but I'm not gonna let Square Enix know. They aren't that important to me. Inept. Rebirth was a great game with flaws and Triangle Strategy is great. Many of their games are great, but their big budget games all screwed up.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Didn't you find FFIX's combat really slow and boring?
I do like turn-based systems but to me FFIX was a pretty basic implementation, I certainly found VII and VIII had way more enjoyable combat.
GHG
Member
Why does he seem so angry?
There's room for both turn based and real time combat systems in RPGs, regardless of whether they are JRPGs or western ones.
What actually matters is the quality of said battle system and how it all comes together. Square are well within their rights to try different things where they see fit.
There's room for both turn based and real time combat systems in RPGs, regardless of whether they are JRPGs or western ones.
What actually matters is the quality of said battle system and how it all comes together. Square are well within their rights to try different things where they see fit.
Bernardougf
Member
A new "JRPG" from France has destroyed Square Enix's Naoki Yoshida gaslighting over turn-based combat, and reminds us how corporations kill creativity.
"You think you want it, but you don't."
This is a comment from former Blizzard president J. Allen Brack, responding to players asking for a World of Warcraft "Classic" mode. It has since become quite notorious among World of Warcraft fans, not only for its pretty arrogant and callous dismissal of an entire section of the fanbase, but also, because Blizzard eventually capitulated and gave players what they had been asking for.
Now under new leadership, World of Warcraft has changed its philosophy to: giving fans exactly what they want. A shocking revelation, I know. But the game has never been in a better spot, with a variety of modes for different types of players, killing off its previous "one shoe fits all" dispassionate telemetry-first design philosophy. We're even getting player housing.
It's perhaps ironic, then, that the main reason we're getting Player Housing in World of Warcraft is due to competition from a competing MMO: Final Fantasy 14.
World of Warcraft was forced to throw their playbook out of the window to meet fans where they were, rather than what the "data" was telling them. Activision's telemetry must have told them that "nobody wanted" player housing, but the popularity of the feature in Final Fantasy 14 certainly suggested otherwise. FF14 innovated where World of Warcraft had failed, and won itself a large and thriving fanbase of its own on the back of that innovation.
For whatever reason, Square Enix began ignoring its own successes when it comes to the mainline Final Fantasy games, which, in recent years, have been on a steady decline in popularity and relevance.
Square Enix's most recent Final Fantasy projects, namely 15, 16, 7 Remake and 7 Rebirth have found decent success, but I would argue none of them received the fanfare some of their predecessors enjoyed. The Final Fantasy 7 remakes has proven that there's still magic to be found in the franchise — even if they flooded Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth with dull Ubisoft-inspired open world drudgery.
Where there's been less success is in the truly new Final Fantasy games. 15 and 16 are both neither what I would describe as classic entries in the series, and represent something of a low point. Square Enix fully abandoned what made the series great, opting away from what fans want in favor of chasing other popular games in a desperate, mis-guided attempt to get more money.
It's utterly insane to me that Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth features Ubisoft-style towers to unlock additional content in the open world. It speaks of a complete dereliction of gauging what is actually fun, and smacks of the type of design decision led by Microsoft Excel rather than good sense.
A little game from France called Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has shone a spotlight on Square Enix's design decisions around Final Fantasy — which was famously a variety of turn-based, command-based, and active-turn-based over the years, with tactical gameplay at its core. Expedition 33 borrows from classic JRPGs like Final Fantasy 8 and even the Super Mario RPG, atop some AAA production values, photorealism, wrapped in a dark fairy tale plot.
Square Enix has previously claimed that people don't want turn-based games anymore. Clearly, with Expedition 33 selling a million copies already — not including Xbox Game Pass — that simply isn't true. This isn't an established franchise like Dragon Quest or Persona, either.
Is Square Enix simply out of touch now? There's nowhere that drives that possibility home more strongly, for me, than Square Enix producer Naoki Yoshida's own words.
Square Enix: it's time to stop the gaslighting over turn-based tactical combat
Naoki Yoshida is credited with the revival of the MMORPG, Final Fantasy 14, which found success by chasing World of Warcraft's model more closely, albeit with that classic and cozy Final Fantasy veneer. While I would say drawing upon inspiration from World of Warcraft did work incredibly well for Final Fantasy 14, this new approach clearly harmed the production of Final Fantasy 15, 7 Rebirth, and 16.
Final Fantasy 16 in particular dropped all pretence that Square Enix wanted to honor the legacy and passion of decades of Final Fantasy precedent, ditching all command-based, tactical gameplay in favor of a derivative and half-baked "Devil May Cry" hack n' slashery. But why? Yoshida gave his "reasons" in a previous interview.
"One thing that we found recently is that as graphics get better and better, and as characters become more realistic and more photo-real, is that the combination of that realism with the very unreal sense of turn-based commands doesn't really fit together."
Stylized turn-based games like Persona, Octopath Traveller, and Dragon Quest are okay, but not photorealistic ones? Huh? What?
In my view, this is the damning quote that proves to me that Naoki Yoshida and the team leading Final Fantasy have utterly fallen out of touch, not only with Final Fantasy fans, but the wider audience in general.
"Some people are fine with it. They're fine with having these realistic characters in this unreal type of system. But then on the other hand, there are people that just can't get over it. I mean, if you have a character holding a gun, why can't you just press the button to have the gunfire – why do you need a command in there?"
A little game from France, Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, solved this made up "problem" by letting you free-aim with the character's guns. It's almost as if Square Enix is trying to explain away the lack of creativity.
Seriously though; the whole argument falls apart entirely when you consider that video games aren't meant to be realistic from the ground up. Final Fantasy 16 has some of the most vacuous, boring, and patronizing combat I've ever experienced in an action game — the game effectively plays itself, with boss battles playing out in cutscenes rather than active combat. And Yoshida has the audacity to claim players won't want to input commands?
It's not the first, or last time, we've seen the industry try to downplay turn based games, and it's not the first, or last time, games like Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 or Baldur's Gate 3 will show up to prove everyone wrong.
Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has a core team of just 33 people, built in part by Ubisoft veterans who were finally free of "telemetry"-based corpo-style game development — which has led the industry down this cul-de-sac of anti-creativity. It's potentially the highest user-rated game on Metacritic in history, as fans pour in not only to praise the game, but also to send Square Enix a strong message: stop gaslighting us.
'Clair Obscur: Expedition 33' utterly destroys Square Enix's gaslighting over Final Fantasy turn-based combat
A new "JRPG" from France has destroyed Square Enix's Naoki Yoshida gaslighting over turn-based combat, and reminds us how corporations kill creativity.www.windowscentral.com
Jez making some valid points?
A lot of TBS games even by AA indies are making success for a long time .. the only people oblivious to this are EE FF studio and their modern fans who like shit like FFXV and XVI...and think this godawful FF7 remakes are some genius thing.
TerribleAtThisGame
Member
"Gaslighting" is so hot right now.
Zacfoldor
Member
On my first playthru I thought this as well, but after getting into some of the systems it really grew on me. I do not find it boring.
My fav is probably FFVIII and the draw system. I loved being able to game that system early and I liked how hidden the weapon upgrades were. The end game limit breaks are what took it over the top. Non turn based it's gotta be FFXII. That game was a masterpiece for me from launch. FFTactics is another great turn based game that really goes wild with some of the turns. I'll never forget when I first unlocked the calculator. FFX ultimate weapon minigame quest is noteworthy in that even though it wasn't combat it might have been my most memorable and favorite part of that game. I love FF6-12 honestly, minus 11. Really I still do love all those games.
Lots of people hated VIII for the story but I loved the story, lol.
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
You're both right. Didn't mean to imply that. YohiP's comments about why they went with the battle system they did/declaring gamers didn't like turn based anymore was misguided. I don't think the battle system needed justification beyond "it's what we chose to do", and going away from turn based combat certainly didn't need to be put on players.
Larxia
Member
They never did. Turn based in FF / Dragon Quest has always been incredibly dumbed down, basic and boring.
I said this in another thread but if a new FF released, with the same gameplay as FF X or whatever, I really doubt it would popular. If people like turn based like Clair Obscur or Persona, it's because it offers a LOT more than the turn based we have in most others JRPGs.
I'm surprised that most people don't seem to realize this. I myself for example have fun on Persona 5, but I absolutely hate the combats in old FF games. It's not because some turn based systems are popular, that all turn based systems would be.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
The main stream gamer sees a 2.5D game and thinks cheap/indie/not AAA. So it doesn't net major sales. This is true of EVERY game like this. Dragon quest may be the exception?
Throw a combat system of this caliber, a mature story, FF level visuals, soundtrack, and then fix the other major issues that plague this series: long dumb development times with mismanagement, poor pacing, god awful side quests, no challenge for the hardcore gamers, etc.
A director like the one for FF16 only knows how to make empty mmo quests of walk to one spot and walk back. He's a hack.
Evil Calvin
Afraid of Boobs
Made by 33 people?
Curious......how is it possible? How long did it take?
I hate to ask this.....but did they use AI to speed up the process? Years of crunch?
It would have taken most other studious 5+ years and hundreds of employees. So, what did they do differently?
Curious......how is it possible? How long did it take?
I hate to ask this.....but did they use AI to speed up the process? Years of crunch?
It would have taken most other studious 5+ years and hundreds of employees. So, what did they do differently?
Miyazaki’s Slave
Gold Member
A new "JRPG" from France has destroyed Square Enix's Naoki Yoshida gaslighting over turn-based combat, and reminds us how corporations kill creativity.
"You think you want it, but you don't."
This is a comment from former Blizzard president J. Allen Brack, responding to players asking for a World of Warcraft "Classic" mode. It has since become quite notorious among World of Warcraft fans, not only for its pretty arrogant and callous dismissal of an entire section of the fanbase, but also, because Blizzard eventually capitulated and gave players what they had been asking for.
Now under new leadership, World of Warcraft has changed its philosophy to: giving fans exactly what they want. A shocking revelation, I know. But the game has never been in a better spot, with a variety of modes for different types of players, killing off its previous "one shoe fits all" dispassionate telemetry-first design philosophy. We're even getting player housing.
It's perhaps ironic, then, that the main reason we're getting Player Housing in World of Warcraft is due to competition from a competing MMO: Final Fantasy 14.
World of Warcraft was forced to throw their playbook out of the window to meet fans where they were, rather than what the "data" was telling them. Activision's telemetry must have told them that "nobody wanted" player housing, but the popularity of the feature in Final Fantasy 14 certainly suggested otherwise. FF14 innovated where World of Warcraft had failed, and won itself a large and thriving fanbase of its own on the back of that innovation.
For whatever reason, Square Enix began ignoring its own successes when it comes to the mainline Final Fantasy games, which, in recent years, have been on a steady decline in popularity and relevance.
Square Enix's most recent Final Fantasy projects, namely 15, 16, 7 Remake and 7 Rebirth have found decent success, but I would argue none of them received the fanfare some of their predecessors enjoyed. The Final Fantasy 7 remakes has proven that there's still magic to be found in the franchise — even if they flooded Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth with dull Ubisoft-inspired open world drudgery.
Where there's been less success is in the truly new Final Fantasy games. 15 and 16 are both neither what I would describe as classic entries in the series, and represent something of a low point. Square Enix fully abandoned what made the series great, opting away from what fans want in favor of chasing other popular games in a desperate, mis-guided attempt to get more money.
It's utterly insane to me that Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth features Ubisoft-style towers to unlock additional content in the open world. It speaks of a complete dereliction of gauging what is actually fun, and smacks of the type of design decision led by Microsoft Excel rather than good sense.
A little game from France called Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has shone a spotlight on Square Enix's design decisions around Final Fantasy — which was famously a variety of turn-based, command-based, and active-turn-based over the years, with tactical gameplay at its core. Expedition 33 borrows from classic JRPGs like Final Fantasy 8 and even the Super Mario RPG, atop some AAA production values, photorealism, wrapped in a dark fairy tale plot.
Square Enix has previously claimed that people don't want turn-based games anymore. Clearly, with Expedition 33 selling a million copies already — not including Xbox Game Pass — that simply isn't true. This isn't an established franchise like Dragon Quest or Persona, either.
Is Square Enix simply out of touch now? There's nowhere that drives that possibility home more strongly, for me, than Square Enix producer Naoki Yoshida's own words.
Square Enix: it's time to stop the gaslighting over turn-based tactical combat
Naoki Yoshida is credited with the revival of the MMORPG, Final Fantasy 14, which found success by chasing World of Warcraft's model more closely, albeit with that classic and cozy Final Fantasy veneer. While I would say drawing upon inspiration from World of Warcraft did work incredibly well for Final Fantasy 14, this new approach clearly harmed the production of Final Fantasy 15, 7 Rebirth, and 16.
Final Fantasy 16 in particular dropped all pretence that Square Enix wanted to honor the legacy and passion of decades of Final Fantasy precedent, ditching all command-based, tactical gameplay in favor of a derivative and half-baked "Devil May Cry" hack n' slashery. But why? Yoshida gave his "reasons" in a previous interview.
"One thing that we found recently is that as graphics get better and better, and as characters become more realistic and more photo-real, is that the combination of that realism with the very unreal sense of turn-based commands doesn't really fit together."
Stylized turn-based games like Persona, Octopath Traveller, and Dragon Quest are okay, but not photorealistic ones? Huh? What?
In my view, this is the damning quote that proves to me that Naoki Yoshida and the team leading Final Fantasy have utterly fallen out of touch, not only with Final Fantasy fans, but the wider audience in general.
"Some people are fine with it. They're fine with having these realistic characters in this unreal type of system. But then on the other hand, there are people that just can't get over it. I mean, if you have a character holding a gun, why can't you just press the button to have the gunfire – why do you need a command in there?"
A little game from France, Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, solved this made up "problem" by letting you free-aim with the character's guns. It's almost as if Square Enix is trying to explain away the lack of creativity.
Seriously though; the whole argument falls apart entirely when you consider that video games aren't meant to be realistic from the ground up. Final Fantasy 16 has some of the most vacuous, boring, and patronizing combat I've ever experienced in an action game — the game effectively plays itself, with boss battles playing out in cutscenes rather than active combat. And Yoshida has the audacity to claim players won't want to input commands?
It's not the first, or last time, we've seen the industry try to downplay turn based games, and it's not the first, or last time, games like Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 or Baldur's Gate 3 will show up to prove everyone wrong.
Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has a core team of just 33 people, built in part by Ubisoft veterans who were finally free of "telemetry"-based corpo-style game development — which has led the industry down this cul-de-sac of anti-creativity. It's potentially the highest user-rated game on Metacritic in history, as fans pour in not only to praise the game, but also to send Square Enix a strong message: stop gaslighting us.
'Clair Obscur: Expedition 33' utterly destroys Square Enix's gaslighting over Final Fantasy turn-based combat
A new "JRPG" from France has destroyed Square Enix's Naoki Yoshida gaslighting over turn-based combat, and reminds us how corporations kill creativity.
Jez making some valid points?
Reality is collapsing in on itself like a dying star...
How is it POSSIBLE I agree with both Topher AND Jez?
kpopSuperstar
Member
Utterly destroys Square's gaslighting?
What sort of headline is this? Scale the drama back, please.
While I long for classic Final Fantasy as well, I can understand that Square is trying something different, and it's not like the new ones are total trash.
What sort of headline is this? Scale the drama back, please.
While I long for classic Final Fantasy as well, I can understand that Square is trying something different, and it's not like the new ones are total trash.
Jinzo Prime
Member
Because 33 people is the core team. Some parts of the production were outsourced.
Topher
Identifies as young
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
Are you me? lol
I thought FF9 was slow too. And Trance was the most frustrating limit break system up to that point.
FF8 is by far my favourite too. Flaws and all. Spamming Zell's 2 second attacks for near endless limit break, Rinoa's Shooting Star, and Squall's Lionheart made the final battle trivial. Fun game to break. Farming XP on the bridge in 12 using the Switch and setting up auto battle gambits to run overnight is also fun lol
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