Baemono
Member
The funny part is that they already did it onceLet's be real, Jez is in a near constant state of butthurt because he's pledged his entire life to a soulless corporation that would sell him to make an extra penny in profit.
The funny part is that they already did it onceLet's be real, Jez is in a near constant state of butthurt because he's pledged his entire life to a soulless corporation that would sell him to make an extra penny in profit.
Only if you want it to. Unequip the rings and turn up the difficulty if you don't want it to "play itself".Final Fantasy 16 has some of the most vacuous, boring, and patronizing combat I've ever experienced in an action game — the game effectively plays itself, with boss battles playing out in cutscenes rather than active combat. And Yoshida has the audacity to claim players won't want to input commands?
Square-Enix probably thinks it's failing because they didn't make it pretty or flashy enough. They gotta quadruple down. RTX 5090 exclusive. That'll do it.If FF17 doesn't launch on Switch 2 and Steam and go turn based just pack up shop.
My take is let developers make the game they want to make. Let them try things they want to try. Last thing we need is for every last game in a genre to be exactly the same as the others.
FF10 and FF12 are the last major FF games with critical success
It would. Just like it happened on Stranger of Paradise.The mainline Final Fantasy series hasn't been truly turn-based in almost 20 years. I believe that people hate Final Fantasy XVI because it's a numbered title and it's different. If you want a turn-based traditional JRPG from Square Enix, they have multiple modern series that do just that.
If Final Fantasy XVI was called "Final Fantasy: Ifrit's Rage" instead, would that stop all of the constant bashing?
No they are not. Flying Waters is one the most beautiful and evocative locations in a video game, ever.The graphics are quite last gen
It's the art style carrying.No they are not. Flying Waters is one the most beautiful and evocative locations in a video game, ever.
So the only thing it takes is making one of the greatest games of all time. You think making a 8.0 FF is going to sell 20million copies because it's turn based?![]()
Hmm I wonder can anyone else think of a massively successful turn based RPG that won multiple GoTY awards not called pokemon recently?
No no, I just can't seem to put a finger on it hmmmmmmm...
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Looks pretty "critically successful" to me.
So the only thing it takes is making one of the greatest games of all time. You think making a 8.0 FF is going to sell 20million copies because it's turn based?
Only if you want it to. Unequip the rings and turn up the difficulty if you don't want it to "play itself".
My take is let developers make the game they want to make. Let them try things they want to try. Last thing we need is for every last game in a genre to be exactly the same as the others.
Also, Final Fantasy hasn't been purely turn based since FF13-2 almost 15 years ago. That franchise has issues, but combat system is not it. It's changed with literally every game in the series.
The mainline Final Fantasy series hasn't been truly turn-based in almost 20 years. I believe that people hate Final Fantasy XVI because it's a numbered title and it's different. If you want a turn-based traditional JRPG from Square Enix, they have multiple modern series that do just that.
If Final Fantasy XVI was called "Final Fantasy: Ifrit's Rage" instead, would that stop all of the constant bashing?
Square-Enix still knows turned based combat, they have so many games still with it, but they are the lower tier budget ones :
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The problem is every goddamn fucking FF director and management won't touch turned based with a ten foot pole for Final Fantasy franchise, thinking they can chase the CoD crowd on consoles and not being satisfied with 10M units sold.
They always find excuses, "the polls want action games", "the HD towns are hard to make", etc.
And you have this French studio coming in with 30 peoples and a small budget schooling everyone, not just Square enix, everyone.
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We can talk about them also schooling other RPG makers with the facial expressions in this game, the animations during dialogues which are beautiful, while you have Starfield and the likes with the most fucking derp dialogue and facial animations.
FF has lost its roots. So many iterations and years of trying to chase the mainstream crowd that the new generation has no fucking clue what turned based even means anymore, or they are rediscovering it with games like Clair Obscur.
Same for Baldur's Gate 3. Shall we dig into the early BG3 threads where they announced the game would be turned based and how negative the reactions were? I don't understand these peoples. Peoples who bitched on turned based all these years for god knows why, ruined perfectly fine franchises because corporations chase these peoples' pockets.
So FF has a big problem. The teams over there are inefficient. The directors screw up and often get replaced. They chase cinematic action which probably costs a fortune to develop compared to turn based. Their budget is so astronomical that they're never satisfied with sales.
I wouldn't mind either Monolith Soft to go back turned based jRPG too by the way, as much as I love Xenoblade franchises, I wish it would drop the mmo type combat and go more like Xenosaga/Xenogears
You liked Turn based final fantasy because it had a great identity and soul that modern FFs lack. Even if the battle system were turn based it would still miss the charm of FF9 or the grand epic tale of FF7 or FFX's wow factor. Assuming it's a good attempt at turn based and not some trash either
Is it really turn based when the combat have a huge focus on real-time parrying and dodging?
*asks for example*
*given example*
*makes up arbitrary reason to ignore example*
"Oh why are there no examples or turn based games that sold well?"
I mean, Square used to have a knack for that between 1994 to 2001So the only thing it takes is making one of the greatest games of all time.
Those games don't meet their current sales expectations.I mean, Square used to have a knack for that between 1994 to 2001
No, I will continue to defend it because outside of the whack story, the gameplay loop is quite good and it's combat is even better. I do agree that Square needs to lessen it's noose around turn based not being a thing in the series, but it's not like the games have been bad, they are just not what people want in the series. If you didn't like VII's combat and/or XVI's combat, then that's a you problem. I personally LOVED the combat in VII Rebirth and XVI's combat was good, but it's definitely not the version FF should be going forward. I had no problem with them experimenting with system and it was very good, just not what I am looking for in an RPG. FFXVI has other problems other than it's combat.stop protecting or glorifying FF7 remakes, because that's crap too. (I'd say worse than 15 and 16). That's clearly not what I expect from FF.
If FF7 Remake had the same Game Design, Level Design and narration / staging as Clair Obscure (and not anime bullshit or grunts), it would already be a much more successful remake
I guess you never saw it coming, huh? (IYKYK)Has there been a turn based game released in the pass decade, not named Pokémon, that has hit the sales square is looking for? Hell, last 2 decades.
After this game, the next one will be turn based.
They need to stop making games with budgets that need +10million dollar sales to be a success. They should scale back the budget and cater towards their core audience. If they make a decent to great game it will sell a few million, they will make money and the fans will be happy. If they fucking nail it and make a masterpiece they will print money regardless what the combat is.I guess you never saw it coming, huh? (IYKYK)
I really do think that Square does need to stop thinking they need to reinvent the wheel with Final Fantasy. That's was never something they did in the past, so why would you do it now? I can chalk it up to fatigue in doing turn based combat, which I get and it's fine, but it's very clear and extremely obvious that, that's not what people want: They want turn based in their RPGs that they make. So...fucking do that.
Giving people want they want isn't selling out when you're a company trying to make money, it's just good business sense. If you want to be more creative, go build a new game. Your audience already has the expectation of what Final Fantasy should be. So, give them that.
I want to believe, but I doubt it.
Yes. In fact FFVIII and many other turn based games have this type of active gameplay. In FFVIII you could tap R1 during Squall's attack and cause the gunblade to fire. During Zell's limit break one was required to input combos as fast as possible during a predetermined time limit. Each combo stopped the timer until it was time to re-enter the next one. A noob might get 1 combo in. By end game, a pro is getting many more. Is FFVIII an action rpg or turn based?Is it really turn based when the combat have a huge focus on real-time parrying and dodging?
Yet if you constantly fail to meet your sales predictions - maybe it the predictions that are the problem, not the sales?It's a great game but TBH it's not something Square Enix would be satisfied with because they are chasing a 10 million seller like past Final Fantasy's.
I don't think that will happen, but yeah, I don't think they need to spend the amount of money that they do on it. I think we also need to see a post-mortem on Clair Obscur. I would like to know the challenges and tribulations they had to go through to create this game with only 33 people. The more we know how they did it, the more we can see how Square could apply it to their design philosophy. I think Square is taking things too seriously in trying to one up their game when they can just make a good traditional RPG and still make it look like a high production value product.They need to stop making games with budgets that need +10million dollar sales to be a success. They should scale back the budget and cater towards their core audience. If they make a decent to great game it will sell a few million, they will make money and the fans will be happy. If they fucking nail it and make a masterpiece they will print money regardless what the combat is.
I'm worried about the FFIX remake. I just want new art and same gameplay, not new game....
A new "JRPG" from France has destroyed Square Enix's Naoki Yoshida gaslighting over turn-based combat, and reminds us how corporations kill creativity.
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"You think you want it, but you don't."
This is a comment from former Blizzard president J. Allen Brack, responding to players asking for a World of Warcraft "Classic" mode. It has since become quite notorious among World of Warcraft fans, not only for its pretty arrogant and callous dismissal of an entire section of the fanbase, but also, because Blizzard eventually capitulated and gave players what they had been asking for.
Now under new leadership, World of Warcraft has changed its philosophy to: giving fans exactly what they want. A shocking revelation, I know. But the game has never been in a better spot, with a variety of modes for different types of players, killing off its previous "one shoe fits all" dispassionate telemetry-first design philosophy. We're even getting player housing.
It's perhaps ironic, then, that the main reason we're getting Player Housing in World of Warcraft is due to competition from a competing MMO: Final Fantasy 14.
World of Warcraft was forced to throw their playbook out of the window to meet fans where they were, rather than what the "data" was telling them. Activision's telemetry must have told them that "nobody wanted" player housing, but the popularity of the feature in Final Fantasy 14 certainly suggested otherwise. FF14 innovated where World of Warcraft had failed, and won itself a large and thriving fanbase of its own on the back of that innovation.
For whatever reason, Square Enix began ignoring its own successes when it comes to the mainline Final Fantasy games, which, in recent years, have been on a steady decline in popularity and relevance.
Square Enix's most recent Final Fantasy projects, namely 15, 16, 7 Remake and 7 Rebirth have found decent success, but I would argue none of them received the fanfare some of their predecessors enjoyed. The Final Fantasy 7 remakes has proven that there's still magic to be found in the franchise — even if they flooded Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth with dull Ubisoft-inspired open world drudgery.
Where there's been less success is in the truly new Final Fantasy games. 15 and 16 are both neither what I would describe as classic entries in the series, and represent something of a low point. Square Enix fully abandoned what made the series great, opting away from what fans want in favor of chasing other popular games in a desperate, mis-guided attempt to get more money.
It's utterly insane to me that Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth features Ubisoft-style towers to unlock additional content in the open world. It speaks of a complete dereliction of gauging what is actually fun, and smacks of the type of design decision led by Microsoft Excel rather than good sense.
A little game from France called Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has shone a spotlight on Square Enix's design decisions around Final Fantasy — which was famously a variety of turn-based, command-based, and active-turn-based over the years, with tactical gameplay at its core. Expedition 33 borrows from classic JRPGs like Final Fantasy 8 and even the Super Mario RPG, atop some AAA production values, photorealism, wrapped in a dark fairy tale plot.
Square Enix has previously claimed that people don't want turn-based games anymore. Clearly, with Expedition 33 selling a million copies already — not including Xbox Game Pass — that simply isn't true. This isn't an established franchise like Dragon Quest or Persona, either.
Is Square Enix simply out of touch now? There's nowhere that drives that possibility home more strongly, for me, than Square Enix producer Naoki Yoshida's own words.
Square Enix: it's time to stop the gaslighting over turn-based tactical combat
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Naoki Yoshida is credited with the revival of the MMORPG, Final Fantasy 14, which found success by chasing World of Warcraft's model more closely, albeit with that classic and cozy Final Fantasy veneer. While I would say drawing upon inspiration from World of Warcraft did work incredibly well for Final Fantasy 14, this new approach clearly harmed the production of Final Fantasy 15, 7 Rebirth, and 16.
Final Fantasy 16 in particular dropped all pretence that Square Enix wanted to honor the legacy and passion of decades of Final Fantasy precedent, ditching all command-based, tactical gameplay in favor of a derivative and half-baked "Devil May Cry" hack n' slashery. But why? Yoshida gave his "reasons" in a previous interview.
"One thing that we found recently is that as graphics get better and better, and as characters become more realistic and more photo-real, is that the combination of that realism with the very unreal sense of turn-based commands doesn't really fit together."
Stylized turn-based games like Persona, Octopath Traveller, and Dragon Quest are okay, but not photorealistic ones? Huh? What?
In my view, this is the damning quote that proves to me that Naoki Yoshida and the team leading Final Fantasy have utterly fallen out of touch, not only with Final Fantasy fans, but the wider audience in general.
"Some people are fine with it. They're fine with having these realistic characters in this unreal type of system. But then on the other hand, there are people that just can't get over it. I mean, if you have a character holding a gun, why can't you just press the button to have the gunfire – why do you need a command in there?"
A little game from France, Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, solved this made up "problem" by letting you free-aim with the character's guns. It's almost as if Square Enix is trying to explain away the lack of creativity.
Seriously though; the whole argument falls apart entirely when you consider that video games aren't meant to be realistic from the ground up. Final Fantasy 16 has some of the most vacuous, boring, and patronizing combat I've ever experienced in an action game — the game effectively plays itself, with boss battles playing out in cutscenes rather than active combat. And Yoshida has the audacity to claim players won't want to input commands?
It's not the first, or last time, we've seen the industry try to downplay turn based games, and it's not the first, or last time, games like Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 or Baldur's Gate 3 will show up to prove everyone wrong.
Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has a core team of just 33 people, built in part by Ubisoft veterans who were finally free of "telemetry"-based corpo-style game development — which has led the industry down this cul-de-sac of anti-creativity. It's potentially the highest user-rated game on Metacritic in history, as fans pour in not only to praise the game, but also to send Square Enix a strong message: stop gaslighting us.
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'Clair Obscur: Expedition 33' utterly destroys Square Enix's gaslighting over Final Fantasy turn-based combat
A new "JRPG" from France has destroyed Square Enix's Naoki Yoshida gaslighting over turn-based combat, and reminds us how corporations kill creativity.www.windowscentral.com
Jez making some valid points?
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On my first playthru I thought this as well, but after getting into some of the systems it really grew on me. I do not find it boring.Didn't you find FFIX's combat really slow and boring?
I do like turn-based systems but to me FFIX was a pretty basic implementation, I certainly found VII and VIII had way more enjoyable combat.
This is a fair take, but it's also the exact reason why FF16 failed. Developers can make what they want by ignoring what made the series successful, but they only have themselves to blame when it fails. Don't blame the player base or fans of the brand.
You're both right. Didn't mean to imply that. YohiP's comments about why they went with the battle system they did/declaring gamers didn't like turn based anymore was misguided. I don't think the battle system needed justification beyond "it's what we chose to do", and going away from turn based combat certainly didn't need to be put on players.You missed the point. Square can make their games with whatever shitty combat they want, but they can't justify it by claiming TB isn't popular or desired by gamers because it's just objectively not true. They don't need to "modernize" FF by getting rid of TB when popular and beloved games like Persona and BG3 fully embrace TB.
They never did. Turn based in FF / Dragon Quest has always been incredibly dumbed down, basic and boring.They likely don't even know how to make a good turn based combat system anymore.
The main stream gamer sees a 2.5D game and thinks cheap/indie/not AAA. So it doesn't net major sales. This is true of EVERY game like this. Dragon quest may be the exception?lets remember this, SE has more than 4K employees the scope alone in how much the game must make to break even in abysmal, COE33 is a amazing game and at the moment GOTY but 1 Million sales does nothing for SE while for Sandfall is a great success.
what SE must do is stop this bloated mess and do more passion projects like COE33, said that, even Octopath that is a "passion project" didn't sell that well despite being turn based, both games estimated to be sold 4mi and thats a low number for SE.
A new "JRPG" from France has destroyed Square Enix's Naoki Yoshida gaslighting over turn-based combat, and reminds us how corporations kill creativity.
![]()
"You think you want it, but you don't."
This is a comment from former Blizzard president J. Allen Brack, responding to players asking for a World of Warcraft "Classic" mode. It has since become quite notorious among World of Warcraft fans, not only for its pretty arrogant and callous dismissal of an entire section of the fanbase, but also, because Blizzard eventually capitulated and gave players what they had been asking for.
Now under new leadership, World of Warcraft has changed its philosophy to: giving fans exactly what they want. A shocking revelation, I know. But the game has never been in a better spot, with a variety of modes for different types of players, killing off its previous "one shoe fits all" dispassionate telemetry-first design philosophy. We're even getting player housing.
It's perhaps ironic, then, that the main reason we're getting Player Housing in World of Warcraft is due to competition from a competing MMO: Final Fantasy 14.
World of Warcraft was forced to throw their playbook out of the window to meet fans where they were, rather than what the "data" was telling them. Activision's telemetry must have told them that "nobody wanted" player housing, but the popularity of the feature in Final Fantasy 14 certainly suggested otherwise. FF14 innovated where World of Warcraft had failed, and won itself a large and thriving fanbase of its own on the back of that innovation.
For whatever reason, Square Enix began ignoring its own successes when it comes to the mainline Final Fantasy games, which, in recent years, have been on a steady decline in popularity and relevance.
Square Enix's most recent Final Fantasy projects, namely 15, 16, 7 Remake and 7 Rebirth have found decent success, but I would argue none of them received the fanfare some of their predecessors enjoyed. The Final Fantasy 7 remakes has proven that there's still magic to be found in the franchise — even if they flooded Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth with dull Ubisoft-inspired open world drudgery.
Where there's been less success is in the truly new Final Fantasy games. 15 and 16 are both neither what I would describe as classic entries in the series, and represent something of a low point. Square Enix fully abandoned what made the series great, opting away from what fans want in favor of chasing other popular games in a desperate, mis-guided attempt to get more money.
It's utterly insane to me that Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth features Ubisoft-style towers to unlock additional content in the open world. It speaks of a complete dereliction of gauging what is actually fun, and smacks of the type of design decision led by Microsoft Excel rather than good sense.
A little game from France called Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has shone a spotlight on Square Enix's design decisions around Final Fantasy — which was famously a variety of turn-based, command-based, and active-turn-based over the years, with tactical gameplay at its core. Expedition 33 borrows from classic JRPGs like Final Fantasy 8 and even the Super Mario RPG, atop some AAA production values, photorealism, wrapped in a dark fairy tale plot.
Square Enix has previously claimed that people don't want turn-based games anymore. Clearly, with Expedition 33 selling a million copies already — not including Xbox Game Pass — that simply isn't true. This isn't an established franchise like Dragon Quest or Persona, either.
Is Square Enix simply out of touch now? There's nowhere that drives that possibility home more strongly, for me, than Square Enix producer Naoki Yoshida's own words.
Square Enix: it's time to stop the gaslighting over turn-based tactical combat
![]()
Naoki Yoshida is credited with the revival of the MMORPG, Final Fantasy 14, which found success by chasing World of Warcraft's model more closely, albeit with that classic and cozy Final Fantasy veneer. While I would say drawing upon inspiration from World of Warcraft did work incredibly well for Final Fantasy 14, this new approach clearly harmed the production of Final Fantasy 15, 7 Rebirth, and 16.
Final Fantasy 16 in particular dropped all pretence that Square Enix wanted to honor the legacy and passion of decades of Final Fantasy precedent, ditching all command-based, tactical gameplay in favor of a derivative and half-baked "Devil May Cry" hack n' slashery. But why? Yoshida gave his "reasons" in a previous interview.
"One thing that we found recently is that as graphics get better and better, and as characters become more realistic and more photo-real, is that the combination of that realism with the very unreal sense of turn-based commands doesn't really fit together."
Stylized turn-based games like Persona, Octopath Traveller, and Dragon Quest are okay, but not photorealistic ones? Huh? What?
In my view, this is the damning quote that proves to me that Naoki Yoshida and the team leading Final Fantasy have utterly fallen out of touch, not only with Final Fantasy fans, but the wider audience in general.
"Some people are fine with it. They're fine with having these realistic characters in this unreal type of system. But then on the other hand, there are people that just can't get over it. I mean, if you have a character holding a gun, why can't you just press the button to have the gunfire – why do you need a command in there?"
A little game from France, Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, solved this made up "problem" by letting you free-aim with the character's guns. It's almost as if Square Enix is trying to explain away the lack of creativity.
Seriously though; the whole argument falls apart entirely when you consider that video games aren't meant to be realistic from the ground up. Final Fantasy 16 has some of the most vacuous, boring, and patronizing combat I've ever experienced in an action game — the game effectively plays itself, with boss battles playing out in cutscenes rather than active combat. And Yoshida has the audacity to claim players won't want to input commands?
It's not the first, or last time, we've seen the industry try to downplay turn based games, and it's not the first, or last time, games like Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 or Baldur's Gate 3 will show up to prove everyone wrong.
Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has a core team of just 33 people, built in part by Ubisoft veterans who were finally free of "telemetry"-based corpo-style game development — which has led the industry down this cul-de-sac of anti-creativity. It's potentially the highest user-rated game on Metacritic in history, as fans pour in not only to praise the game, but also to send Square Enix a strong message: stop gaslighting us.
![]()
'Clair Obscur: Expedition 33' utterly destroys Square Enix's gaslighting over Final Fantasy turn-based combat
A new "JRPG" from France has destroyed Square Enix's Naoki Yoshida gaslighting over turn-based combat, and reminds us how corporations kill creativity.www.windowscentral.com
Jez making some valid points?
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Because 33 people is the core team. Some parts of the production were outsourced.Made by 33 people?
Curious......how is it possible? How long did it take?
I hate to ask this.....but did they use AI to speed up the process? Years of crunch?
It would have taken most other studious 5+ years and hundreds of employees. So, what did they do differently?
Reality is collapsing in on itself like a dying star...
How is it POSSIBLE I agree with both Topher AND Jez?
Are you me? lolOn my first playthru I thought this as well, but after getting into some of the systems it really grew on me. I do not find it boring.
My fav is probably FFVIII and the draw system. I loved being able to game that system early and I liked how hidden the weapon upgrades were. The end game limit breaks are what took it over the top. Non turn based it's gotta be FFXII. That game was a masterpiece for me from launch. FFTactics is another great turn based game that really goes wild with some of the turns. I'll never forget when I first unlocked the calculator. FFX ultimate weapon minigame quest is noteworthy in that even though it wasn't combat it might have been my most memorable and favorite part of that game. I love FF6-12 honestly, minus 11. Really I still do love all those games.
Lots of people hated VIII for the story but I loved the story, lol.