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[wipeout364]

 

[Last Hearth]

I don't think that will happen, but yeah, I don't think they need to spend the amount of money that they do on it. I think we also need to see a post-mortem on Clair Obscur. I would like to know the challenges and tribulations they had to go through to create this game with only 33 people. The more we know how they did it, the more we can see how Square could apply it to their design philosophy. I think Square is taking things too seriously in trying to one up their game when they can just make a good traditional RPG and still make it look like a high production value product.

But I don't think this is solely a Square problem, but more of an industry wide thing. There's so many companies that go overboard with production and cost that it's a little bit crazy. Downscaling will help Square 100%.

Although I have no information on this, I would be shocked if Sandfall didn't have many of its team members put in hours way beyond the standard at most studios, because it was a passion project. On the other hand, many of them probably also has some form of profit share in the company/project, so that if the game becomes a hit a lot of those extra hours will pay off in terms of significant bonuses.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

Rare incel game pass win and he jez all over his keyboard

Real men Steam

 

[Thabass]

Although I have no information on this, I would be shock if Sandfall didn't have many of its team members put in hours way beyond the standard at most studios, because it was a passion project. On the other hand, many of them probably also has some form of profit share in the company/project, so that if the game becomes a hit a lot of those extra hours will pay off in terms of significant bonuses.

It would really surprise me if they didn't have some stake in the company yeah.

 

[ProtoByte]

Square's action RPGs don't even go as far as games like the witcher, they're way more action heavy. I'd even say that games like Symphony of the night are better action RPGs.

You think Witcher 3 has a better combat system than FF7R? Thats insane. Even FF15's combat is better designed than TW3.

FF7 remake and rebirth aren't nearly as interesting as the original game.

Might that be because the original has been remastered, recompiled, reinterpreted and over-exposed throughout it's entire 30 years of existence?

 

[Wooxsvan]

it's still turn based and so it still sucks.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Take lessons, Yoshida, or go get fucked.

 

[Thabass]

Reality is collapsing in on itself like a dying star...

How is it POSSIBLE I agree with both Topher AND Jez?

A broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[BbMajor7th]

Hmm I wonder can anyone else think of a massively successful turn based RPG that won multiple GoTY awards not called pokemon recently?

No no, I just can't seem to put a finger on it hmmmmmmm...

BG3 still has six-figure CCUs every day. It must have shifted 20-30m units by this stage, and it is ballsachingly turn-based. Makes traditional FF turn-based combat look casual as shit.

 

[VectorVictor]

Oh c'mon, he's just butthurt Final Fantasy isn't on XBox and/or Gamepass.... : )

FF titles have been on GamePass multiple times and everything but the FF 7 remake is available. Not sure where this is coming from...

 

[Physiognomonics]

They are going to talk about that "gamepass game" for decades to come. But I am totally OK as they are actually right.

 

[Plague Doctor]

I mean if you think it destroys any pr narrative by SquareEnix, the fuck does the game's existence say for quality of output and current reception by Ubisoft, their ex-employer?



Answer: It savages them and I am here for it.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Also Clair Obscur is a new IP made by a new studio with only about 30 people working there.

Just imagine how much bloat there is at other companies making games if they can make a solid game with so few people.

 

[Hypereides]

Also Clair Obscur is a new IP made by a new studio with only about 30 people working there.

Just imagine how much bloat there is at other companies making games if they can make a solid game with so few people.

I don't think all of it is categorically "bloat", but a symptom of poor team management and delegation onto projects. Basically, they got too many chefs cooking in the kitchen which results in a messy disjointed project on the other side of the pipeline.

 

[Last Hearth]

I don't think all of it is categorically "bloat", but a symptom of poor team management and delegation onto projects. Basically, they got too many chefs cooking in the kitchen which results in a messy disjointed project on the other side of the pipeline.

Remember that video by Tim Cain where he said he asked for a slight change in the NPC's targeting priority que, and was told y the programmer it would take 2 weeks, when he knew it would have taken himself ten minutes.
That's where all the budget goes to.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Remember that video by Tim Cain where he said he asked for a slight change in the NPC's targeting priority que, and was told y the programmer it would take 2 weeks, when he knew it would have taken himself ten minutes.
That's where all the budget goes to.

Some industries have the luxury of being able to push things off and just say "Hey it takes time". Construction and contractors repairing stuff and the IT team are similar. I'm sure they can finish fixing the building or repairing the road or database but it might take forever. And you cant really do anything about it, since it's vague if the team really needs that much time to dig into it, or they are taking a nap and dragging it out to keep getting paid knowing they can fix it that afternoon in one shot.

On the other hand, if someone had a big spreadsheet at work to analyze and put together some slides to present, everyone knows you only got so much time to put something together. You cant tell everyone gimme 2 weeks or 2 months to do it where everyone has no idea what you do so they dont know any better and they just accept you saying you all month. You might get 2 days and you got to plow through it and get it done because in general there is a ballpark norm how much time it takes to do based on previous similar tasks people have done. Everyone knows that kind of task doesnt take 30 days. You got 3 days tops.

That programmer was trying to waste time thinking Tim Cain didnt know any better and would just accept his bogus timeline. But if that programmer gave that timeline to someone who isnt a programmer they wouldnt know any better and might think two weeks is the norm.

 

[Durin]

Each main line FF is different, that's the whole appeal. A new world, new characters and a new battle system.

For me that's the main thing of the series. But for many, it seems that's not interesting anymore.

They want the same old stagnated turn based system combat.

Some people might want the literal same system again, but you're painting with an unfair broad brush if you're assuming most want no innovation. They were able to for multiple mainline titles innovate with turns, people just want a break from them doing another action combat system in a sea of other RPGs that have gone with action combat systems.

As a company, Square has said multiple times they think action combat is appealing to a larger audience, not because there is some organic artistic desire at the company as the main driver to do it.

People are praising Expedition 33 like there's no tomorrow, yet it's a game that could be made on the ps3. It uses Persona combat combined with Shadow Hearts qte, the only new thing is that they added qte on evasion.... The whole aesthetics and music are clearly inspired by other games and they even added stuff from Souls games.

Literally any game now could be done on the PS3, we're past the days where new hardware is allowing new fundamental gameplay mechanics, it's just production values and more stuff on screen.

I liked FF16, but nothing about that game's combat system is wholly unique. They hired people who worked on character action games the system emulates, the precision dodging is just a worse Bayonetta witch time, and the progression system is just stripped down entirely. Even in their showcase when they made a big deal out of equipping items that lowered game difficulty, multiple games have done the same thing, and in Transistor's case they did it better because you could add difficulty through items.

They just riffed on existing ideas the same as Expedition 33, just with action game mechanics. They could riff on turn-based systems from other games to do something fresh for the series.

 

[LordOcidax]

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm glad a game such as this has shown up and taken the gaming community by storm. This is why new school AA/indie is emerging as a threat to the AAA mindset. Its a slap in the face to many large AAA corporate developers/publishers and their current creative managerial and operation policies. Throwing a shit ton of people onto a project to overcompensate for hollow/lack of passion does not equate to betterment of a game's chance for success and/or widespread positive response.

CEOs and BI suits around the industry should take that lesson and learn from it.

The BI suits are what's ruining the game industry. Not the gamers or GAAS type games.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

You think Witcher 3 has a better combat system than FF7R? Thats insane. Even FF15's combat is better designed than TW3.

Where did I say better...

Might that be because the original has been remastered, recompiled, reinterpreted and over-exposed throughout it's entire 30 years of existence?

No

 

[Aion002]

Some people might want the literal same system again, but you're painting with an unfair broad brush if you're assuming most want no innovation. They were able to for multiple mainline titles innovate with turns, people just want a break from them doing another action combat system in a sea of other RPGs that have gone with action combat systems.

As a company, Square has said multiple times they think action combat is appealing to a larger audience, not because there is some organic artistic desire at the company as the main driver to do it.



Literally any game now could be done on the PS3, we're past the days where new hardware is allowing new fundamental gameplay mechanics, it's just production values and more stuff on screen.

I liked FF16, but nothing about that game's combat system is wholly unique. They hired people who worked on character action games the system emulates, the precision dodging is just a worse Bayonetta witch time, and the progression system is just stripped down entirely. Even in their showcase when they made a big deal out of equipping items that lowered game difficulty, multiple games have done the same thing, and in Transistor's case they did it better because you could add difficulty through items.

They just riffed on existing ideas the same as Expedition 33, just with action game mechanics. They could riff on turn-based systems from other games to do something fresh for the series.

I agree with you, specially on FFXVI.

And you make a good point, S-E always tried to make FF more popular with a wider range of consumers, it's not about them having a good idea for a battle system, they just want more sales and they will do whatever they think will achieve that for them.

With the success of Expedition 33, they will probably consider going back to turn based combat, since they're always chasing bigger sales.

You're also right about my take on Expedition 33. I just didn't like it and I made an unfair post about it.

 

[Durin]

I agree with you, specially on FFXVI.

And you make a good point, S-E always tried to make FF more popular with a wider range of consumers, it's not about them having a good idea for a battle system, they just want more sales and they will do whatever they think will achieve that for them.

With the success of Expedition 33, they will probably consider going back to turn based combat, since they're always chasing bigger sales.

You're also right about my take on Expedition 33. I just didn't like it and I made an unfair post about it.

I just miss the days when Square used to set trends in the industry, rather than looking like they are just following them to try to stay relevant.

Looking at Larian, they're kind of where I would like Square to go. Instead of being stuck in the rut where Larian were making derivative games based on publisher demand (Beyond Divinity needing to be like Diablo), they used kickstarter funds to make their own games rooted in influence from Ultima..not because that series is relevant, but that's what they liked. However, their games only feel like Ultima in design philosophy, but so many of the systems are completely different, they did alot with UI and convenience features to make an isometric CRPG clearer to understand, and they were ok with some player problem-solving just breaking the game.

Seeing how Octopath Traveler has developed as a series, I can imagine Square doing something fresh with turns in a mainline FF game, or turns with minor real-time elements like Valkyria Chronicles.

 

[Zephyranthes]

Oh look, another person who doesn't know what the word "gaslighting" means.

That aside, I do agree that there is plenty of room for turn-based combat in modern gaming. It just takes a creative team that is able to design it in a way that's engaging, and we've seen plenty of examples of this. I see Yoshi-P's point that there is a sizable portion of the gaming audience that will dismiss the concept out of hand, but that doesn't mean that the concept itself is without merit. We need more games like Persona and Clair Obscur to show what is possible when it is placed in capable hands.

 

[DreamcastSkies]

Just starting up my first play through of this game. Let's how it goes. All I hear is a lot of praise for it.

 

[Fabieter]

I absolutely adore Expedition 33 but we can have more than one thing.
When people like something they don't want anything else until the stuff comes out of their ears already. I dont get it.

 

[calico]

Is it really turn based when the combat have a huge focus on real-time parrying and dodging?

I'd say it's still turn based, but I understand where you're coming from. It's difficult to neatly categorize a game with timing/reflex based mechanics in such a dominant role alongside games which are generally known for a total or near total absence of those mechanics.

A game imposing time pressure upon the player to input controls vs not doing that is about the biggest fundamental difference games can have.

 

[peronmls]

Square Enix doesn't care about the same stale gameplay. Good on them for being more innovative instead of doing the same thing but dressed differently like indie dev. All you guys act like turn base isn't around. These 4 literally came out last year.

 

[Cornbread78]

FF titles have been on GamePass multiple times and everything but the FF 7 remake is available. Not sure where this is coming from...

It's alright bruh, I have GP U for my Ser X too.....

He can still be butthurt, it's ok. Congrats on Expedition 33 being a Day 1 freebie, yay.

 

[Scrawnton]

Square Enix doesn't care about the same stale gameplay. Good on them for being more innovative instead of doing the same thing but dressed differently like indie dev. All you guys act like turn base isn't around. These 4 literally came out last year.

We have to pretend those don't exist so we can put Clair Obscur on a pedestal.

Spoiler

Clair Obscur Expedition 33 is a great "JRPG" for people who mostly play linear story games like uncharted or GoW, but it is nothing close to any of those games pictured above in regards to gameplay depth and over quality. It's a movie with turn based combat. Great if you like that type of game but it's not what I got to JRPGs for.

 

[amscanner]

Combat system is not the only problem of recent Final fantasy. Their story-telling, characters are completely outdated IMO and only nostalgia about series is barely keeping up the franchise.

 

[Mozzarella]

I don't get why they call this game a JRPG!!
Its clearly not a JRPG.

Its amazing to me how many RPG fans there is and they still don't know that JRPG is not a genre.

Anyway, this game looks great, i took a vacation and i come back with this and Oblivion.
Didn't like how Oblivion looked compared to the OG but Clair Obscur has been a nice surprise hit.

 

[Memati187]

I really liked ff16, because of its mature tone, but overall the franchise sucks now, especially ff7 remake and rebirth. The fact that these morons sell a game in chunks for full price is borderline fucked up.

They don't have the magic anymore, 33 is the new FF for me.

 

[Andrew Evenstar]

i think FF7's battle system is sick. I haven't played 16. I still like turn based, always will. All systems can be good. I'm also a hard core souls player. This game looks awesome, been watching Max stream it a bit.