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Star Ocean = teh suck?

RevenantKioku

PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
With a little finesse you can have SO3 for $35. I don't know what Fry's is doing, but hell, great admission price. Although I'm confused as to why they put it in the cardboard box, but whatever.
Now I just gotta finish Symphonia.
 

belgurdo

Banned
For some reason, although the AI is utter shit, MP kills break boss battles most of the time, and the plot moves like molasses, I'm liking this a lot more than Symphonia. Probably because I don't utterly hate the plot and characters unlike the latter, I suppose
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Roger + Axe from Airyglyph + a couple of levels = offensive beast.

In that Aquatic Garden, fighting more Bestials and Intellectuals, Fayt with Shotgun, Cliff with Fists of Fury, Nel with Thunder Flare, I can break 100 hit combos. :eek:
 

Takosuke

Member
The only thing I find that sucks in SO3 for the moment is Cliff's voice and the "little girl" 's voice actress. I can't stand these two voices, I makes me feel like beating the crap of my TV >_<
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Anyone know where I could find the video of that guy pulling off like a 5000 hit combo or something? I'd love to see that again now that I've played the game...
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Can someone explain the "black screen of death" bug that I've heard mentioned here quite a bit?

I think I've gotten a similar issue, only it didn't crash the game. I'd like to know if that's the same or not.
 

Dead

well not really...yet
Mejilan said:
Can someone explain the "black screen of death" bug that I've heard mentioned here quite a bit?

I think I've gotten a similar issue, only it didn't crash the game. I'd like to know if that's the same or not.
Hmm, after switching from a menu or going from inside to out itll sometimes go black for a good 30+ seconds and then I freak out thinking the games going to crash and I didnt save but then it loads back up normally.

Its happened a few times already....
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Mejilan said:
Can someone explain the "black screen of death" bug that I've heard mentioned here quite a bit?

I think I've gotten a similar issue, only it didn't crash the game. I'd like to know if that's the same or not.

Well, I've only encountered it once...but it basically seems like the system just can't access the disc for whatever reason. I've heard that it doesn't actually crash, it just takes a while to return to the game. In my case, I changed an option in the Config menu and when I exited the menu...the screen stayed black for like 15 seconds. So, I just assumed it had crashed. According to someone else, if I were to have waited longer it would have returned the game. Also, during one battle, a message box popped up once telling me it was "reading the disc".

I'd assume that these are related to the bugs that plagued the original release. They almost cleaned up the game, but didn't completely fix it. SO2 was the same way...

Oh, and I just realized that I still had that SO3 video. It's actually a 4262 hit combo. Very sweet!
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Thanks for clearing that up. I got the "Loading from disc" instance once while exploring the Aquaria vs Airyglyph wartime map. And I get the black/white screen of death frequently, but it ALWAYS recovers after 15-30 seconds of waiting. I got it white, once, when it began to load a battle. It did the ripple effect, the screen began to fade to white, then boom, silence for about 20 seconds, until the battle music kicked in and the fight finished loading.

Weird, but not fatal bugs.

That said, I'm just past 30 hours into the game, and I think I'm done with it. I didn't beat it, it's just that enjoyment has dropped to nil. Just entered the Sealed Caverns, the ones that lead to the Sacred Orb, and I can't take anymore of this stupid, stupid broken game. Pity SFAC and Phantom Brave haven't arrived yet. :/

Consequently, does anyone know how far I am from the end of the game at this point?
 

nitewulf

Member
after that boring ass intro i played upto/beat the first dungeon. it was fun at that point...though im still getting used to the battle system. i think i hit my partner a few times during the boss battle, thats just retarded if true.
 

Diablos

Member
I gave up on SO2 right before the end of the first disc. I'm sure the new one sucks too.
All RPG's suck now. Hell, all console games suck now.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
That said, I'm just past 30 hours into the game, and I think I'm done with it. I didn't beat it, it's just that enjoyment has dropped to nil. Just entered the Sealed Caverns, the ones that lead to the Sacred Orb, and I can't take anymore of this stupid, stupid broken game.

Hah, that about sums up my Symphonia experience...only you can replace 30 with 15. Bleh.

i think i hit my partner a few times during the boss battle, thats just retarded if true.

Well, don't worry...you can't actually do that. It isn't possible to hit other characters in your party...
 

duckroll

Member
Heh, I suggest if anyone at any point doesn't feel like continuing in this game, don't.

Otherwise you'll continue on and on like dark10x only to get to the endgame and discover OMFG*SPOILER*OMFG*THISGAMEISFUCKINGRETARDED*OMFG*WHATHAVETHEYDONETOSO*OMFG :)

It's really only for your own good. Whoever wrote the story should be shot.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
duckroll said:
Heh, I suggest if anyone at any point doesn't feel like continuing in this game, don't.

Otherwise you'll continue on and on like dark10x only to get to the endgame and discover OMFG*SPOILER*OMFG*THISGAMEISFUCKINGRETARDED*OMFG*WHATHAVETHEYDONETOSO*OMFG :)

It's really only for your own good. Whoever wrote the story should be shot.

I happen to enjoy the story, so far... it's pretty basic, but it's not full of abundant cliches (TOS), retarded and annoying characters (most of the FF series), excessive pretentiousness and storyline threads that go nowhere (Xenosaga).
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
djtiesto said:
I happen to enjoy the story, so far... it's pretty basic, but it's not full of abundant cliches (TOS), retarded and annoying characters (most of the FF series), excessive pretentiousness and storyline threads that go nowhere (Xenosaga).

Well, duckroll absolutely hates the game...while Shouta enjoyed it quite a bit. There were many arguments between those two regarding the quality of SO3...

I'd be interested in hearing those arguments again, because although the game could be considered "broken", it's a hell of a lot more fun to play than many other RPGs out there. Fast, responsive, and fun. I can't recall exactly what was said to be wrong with it, but I'd like to hear it again now that I have experience with it. Of course, I believe their experiences are limited to the original release...so they would be missing many of the improvements made to the game (beyond simple feature addition).
 

nitewulf

Member
im at the underground tunnel dungeon at the second planet.
*spoiler*
what the hell do i do after i beat the boss?
the ice keeps shattering if i try to go that way, and if i go back, i cant seem to go up the second slope, too slippery.
*end*
oh yeah, as much fun as im having, they should have just turned it into a full fledged action rpg, the partners are more trouble than they are worth...i keep having to look after them too much. but aside from that, the battles are quite fun so far.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
nitewulf said:
im at the underground tunnel dungeon at the second planet.
*spoiler*
what the hell do i do after i beat the boss?
the ice keeps shattering if i try to go that way, and if i go back, i cant seem to go up the second slope, too slippery.
*end*
oh yeah, as much fun as im having, they should have just turned it into a full fledged action rpg, the partners are more trouble than they are worth...i keep having to look after them too much. but aside from that, the battles are quite fun so far.

Err, that was explain earlier in the game, nite. :p

Just hold down circle and walk carefully over the ice. It only breaks if you run on the ice. When you first encounter ice of that type, they show a short cutscene suggesting that you should be careful when crossing the ice (ie - walk). :D
 

nitewulf

Member
heh, figures...i usually read the manuals very carefully before every new game i play, and the one time i dont...
well thanx :)
 
dark10x said:
/me agrees with Alex



I suprised you enjoyed the battle system in SO2 so much. I always thought it felt very clunky and un-responsive. It was a neat attempt at something more action oriented, but it didn't even control as well as the original Star Ocean.


Star Ocean 2's battle system never felt un-responsive or clunky ever. I played the game up to lvl.255 and never noticed anything bad at all about it. I just wanna hear what you mean...maybe i just overlooked something.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
dark10x said:
Hah, that about sums up my Symphonia experience...only you can replace 30 with 15. Bleh.

Not really. You may not have liked it, at all, but ToS wasn't broken. ;p
 

duckroll

Member
djtiesto said:
I happen to enjoy the story, so far... it's pretty basic, but it's not full of abundant cliches (TOS), retarded and annoying characters (most of the FF series), excessive pretentiousness and storyline threads that go nowhere (Xenosaga).

ToS was cliched but entertaining. SO3 isn't "cliched" because it doesn't even try very hard to have any interesting events (at first), the characters aren't retarded because they're completely two-dimensional with no attempt at personality and I would argue that that alone makes them annoying for me. As for excessive pretentiousness and storyline threads that go nowhere (or into the abyss of WTF)... I'll let you find that out for yourself if you ever get to the end. :)


dark10x said:
Well, duckroll absolutely hates the game...while Shouta enjoyed it quite a bit. There were many arguments between those two regarding the quality of SO3...

I'd be interested in hearing those arguments again, because although the game could be considered "broken", it's a hell of a lot more fun to play than many other RPGs out there. Fast, responsive, and fun. I can't recall exactly what was said to be wrong with it, but I'd like to hear it again now that I have experience with it. Of course, I believe their experiences are limited to the original release...so they would be missing many of the improvements made to the game (beyond simple feature addition).

Let me get the facts straight. I don't hate the game, I hate Tri-ace's failure to make the game what it could have been.

1. Not only is the battle engine of SO3 broken,

2. but the story is tacky (ok, so SO has always had tacky stories)

3. but then degenerates in complete nonsense towards the end.

4. The story is also populated by a bunch of very cliched two-dimensional characters who don't even have cool lines.

5. Item Creation really got screwed from the rear in SO3 too, I'm sorry but I don't really give a damn about streamlining systems for the mainstream and taking away all non-active skills like reading, etc.

6. The cutscenes are really longass, the character models aren't even attractive to look at, AND the director sucks at making the scenes remotely interesting.

7. The towns, dungeons and locations never give off a feeling of "wow" nor is there much build-up or introduction to places I'll be heading to give me a sense of awe. While the places themselves are no doubt well designed and modeled, it just feels like I'm visiting another stupid backwater location on a boring backwater world. :)

Now I'm sure you have -TONS- of reasons why you love SO3 (I hope anyway) but if you find it fun, that's great for you. Doesn't mean the game isn't fucking flawed to the bone. It's just about impossible to think about SO3 pleasently with so many fundemental flaws in the design. :(
 

Dead

well not really...yet
7. The towns, dungeons and locations never give off a feeling of "wow" nor is there much build-up or introduction to places I'll be heading to give me a sense of awe. While the places themselves are no doubt well designed and modeled, it just feels like I'm visiting another stupid backwater location on a boring backwater world.
Actually the towns are one of my favorite parts of SO3 so far (note that im about 15 hours in) for once they actually give you a sense of scale and that its a real town and not some place with 5 houses and 100 inhabitants, some nice architecture in the game too imo. I think the one aspect of the game thats not really wowing me are the cutscenes, almost xenosaga length but dont have the wow factor or interesting characters from that game. Despite all that im really enjoying the game due for the most part to the battle system
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
elitehebrew said:
Star Ocean 2's battle system never felt un-responsive or clunky ever. I played the game up to lvl.255 and never noticed anything bad at all about it. I just wanna hear what you mean...maybe i just overlooked something.

Well, it wasn't really bad (I still enjoyed it), but I had played Star Ocean 1 prior to Star Ocean 2 and the battle system wasn't nearly as smooth. It's still a fun system, but for some reason, it just didn't feel that snappy. SO1 and 3 both just feel a lot quicker. I can't really explain it.

Not really. You may not have liked it, at all, but ToS wasn't broken. ;p

Sure it is, just not nearly to the same degree. Like Alex (and others), my experience with the AI has been less than postive...and since the playing fields are so tiny, it's easy to get caught up in corners (making those flaws more annoying). It isn't a hard game (at least during the 15 hours I've played), but the battles always seem to play out the same. Well, I feel kind of bad for the game...so I might continue. However, the story is going NOWHERE, the music is HORRIBLE, and the world looks the same no matter where you go. I just can't understand why anyone would continue. I mean, in games like Wild Arms 3 (which suffered from the same progression problems), at least you had reason to continue just to solve the rather interesting dungeons and hear the music.

Of course, I'll never understand the hype it recieved because it plays almost exactly the same as Eternia and the prequels. It isn't even quite as full featured. It was misleading to me, because I am not a Tales fan. Pretty much EVERY Tales game has left me bored simply because the battle system is the ONLY good thing about them. With all the hype, I expected something new...but it's the same old game...again. Surely you can see that much. They built it on an ancient model, so it better not be broken.

Perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh as a result of this, though. I don't feel it deserves the praise it is getting when other games (which are basically the same) in the series recieved very little attention (in the US).

The cutscenes are really longass, the character models aren't even attractive to look at, AND the director sucks at making the scenes remotely interesting.

This is something I thought about...

It seems like they simply tried to walk the line between normal RPG dialog and more advanced cutscenes. Think about it, how many other RPGs deliver cutscenes on par with Xenosaga (in terms of technical execution)? Virtually NONE. I mean, FFX has a lot of the same problems as SO3 does, and that was considered a cinematic RPG. Really, SO3's cutscenes seem like they simply chose to zoom the camera in on conventional RPG conversations. It's just the fact that they HINT at being cinematic that you start to wish they were more so. How many other RPGs can you think of that even begin to approach Xenosaga in terms of cutscene execution? Few, I'd imagine. I don't think we can expect that from most devs (though it would be nice).

Think about last gen, though. You really didn't have anything like that. Characters would usually just, well, sit there on the map while you cycle through dialog. SO2 was extremely verbose, for example, so there was a LOT of dialog to go through. Xenogears story was presented almost entirely in this fashion (text boxes). Grandia took it a bit further when they used varying expressions on the characters that were actually effective. SO3 is just an extension of this type of cutscene. It's mostly characters standing around talking with a bit of action or animation here and there. It's more animated and active than most RPGs.

Not only is the battle engine of SO3 broken

It's a shame, as it is feels so good to play. I look forward to every battle as a result. However, there are a lot of problem areas with it that disappoint. If only they could finish what they started. It has the base of a good battle system, I think, but it just isn't finished.

I agree that item creation sucks ass, though.
 

Bebpo

Banned
dark10x said:
Of course, I'll never understand the hype it recieved because it plays almost exactly the same as Eternia and the prequels. It isn't even quite as full featured. It was misleading to me, because I am not a Tales fan. Pretty much EVERY Tales game has left me bored simply because the battle system is the ONLY good thing about them. With all the hype, I expected something new...but it's the same old game...again. Surely you can see that much. They built it on an ancient model, so it better not be broken.

Perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh as a result of this, though. I don't feel it deserves the praise it is getting when other games (which are basically the same) in the series recieved very little attention (in the US).

I hate to break it to you, but the story in ToS has it's major plot twist about 20 hours in and then the story is pretty solid for the rest of the game. At first I was worried about ToS being "Go to each elemental dungeon and fight a boss" aka early FFX story. But when they stopped that and the story took off I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's not a fantastic piece of literature but I'd say the story & characters combined stomp every rpg this gen besides FFX, XSep1, SMT3, SH2, and DDS.

It recieved a lot of hype because not only was the battle system top-notch but the dungeon designs and puzzles were great, the graphics smooth with fast player movement, it was filled with likable characters and the skits were awesome, and the story was a step above other tales games IMO. Basically it was the perfect blend of getting everything right and for the most part being faultless.

Also just like you said you enjoy going into every battle with SO3, I got that feeling in ToS. I made great AI parameters, I equipped great skills and I went and combo'ed like mad trying to get just 1 digit higher than my previous best each battle. Whereas in SO3 after about 1/2 way I would start dreading getting into the battles because reviving my AI people was such a pain.

Lastly I don't know how you can even compare ToS to WA3. I finished every rpg I've started so far this gen (which is probably about 90% of the rpgs released domestic&import), yet WA3 is the only rpg I've ever quit and just shelved. The battle system was sleep inducing, the battle graphics retched, the character controlled poorly, the dungeon designs sucked, and the "find the next location" thing was just stupid. Also I guess music is just a matter of taste because the music in WA3 never really left an impression, whereas I enjoyed pretty much all the ToS music from the title screen theme until the ending credits.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Seriously, though, many other people who have played much further in the game (including Folken, who is at the last boss) have claimed that the story remains crap throughout...but perhaps I'll give it a shot.

You seem so passionate about it, but I'm afraid that reading GAF has almost turned me against it. Even if I go back now, I almost hold a grudge against the damn game. I didn't like it very much, from what I've played, and now I am biased against it because all of the people praising it are the people who hate SO3 (which I am enjoying). I'll probably finish SO3 today, if I have time. I dunno, I'm in the middle of Moonbase...I wonder how much time I have left?

Well, the reason I compared ToS to Wild Arms 3 is because it gave me exactly the same feelings. Seriously. Playing ToS reminded me of playing Wild Arms 3...even though they are very different.

Answer me this, though. How much longer until the world starts to drastically change in ToS? I'm sick of everything looking the same and I've already explored nearly the entire world. When do you go to another world or when does that world change? I want some variety to keep me exploring here...

whereas I enjoyed pretty much all the ToS music from the title screen theme until the ending credits.

I REALLLLLLLY wish you wouldn't have said that. I mean, your argument was convincing until that point. :( Oh well, I guess we just have very different tastes in RPG music. I wasn't saying that WA3 is a favorite soundtrack or anything, but there were tunes in there to keep me going. The music is still lightyears beyond every installment in the Tales series, though. Honestly, the only RPG I can think of with worse music than the Tales games is Legend of Dragoon.
 
I hate to break it to you, but the story in ToS has it's major plot twist about 20 hours in and then the story is pretty solid for the rest of the game.

No, no it doesn't. The ToS plot never STOPS being retarded; it just becomes a completely different kind of predictable and cliched. The massively telegraphed twist just turns it from a cut-rate 8-bit era FF-style plot to a cut-rate 16-bit era FF-style plot, and it still sucks goat nads. You'd have to have serious boner for the most wretchedly tired anime cliches to be able to dredge up any love for ToS' godawful cast and plot.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
dark10x said:
I REALLLLLLLY wish you wouldn't have said that. I mean, your argument was convincing until that point. :( Oh well, I guess we just have very different tastes in RPG music. I wasn't saying that WA3 is a favorite soundtrack or anything, but there were tunes in there to keep me going. The music is still lightyears beyond every installment in the Tales series, though. Honestly, the only RPG I can think of with worse music than the Tales games is Legend of Dragoon.

I thought Phantasia had some pretty nice music... TOS's music has fine composition but suffers from a poor instrument library, Sakuraba loves his buttrock guitars but the guitar instrument he used sounds horrible, reminds me of N64 Goldeneye in its cheesiness.

My favorite RPG music will forever be Chrono Trigger's... I also loved the Phantasy Star soundtracks, since they were pretty unique as far as RPG music goes, though they sound fairly primitive today. Can't wait to hear how the music in the remixes will be.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
djtiesto said:
I thought Phantasia had some pretty nice music... TOS's music has fine composition but suffers from a poor instrument library, Sakuraba loves his buttrock guitars but the guitar instrument he used sounds horrible, reminds me of N64 Goldeneye in its cheesiness.

My favorite RPG music will forever be Chrono Trigger's... I also loved the Phantasy Star soundtracks, since they were pretty unique as far as RPG music goes, though they sound fairly primitive today. Can't wait to hear how the music in the remixes will be.

Phantasia is the ONLY decent Tales soundtrack. The problem is not the instruments with ToS, though. Listen to most of those songs. Outside of some battle themes, most of the music is throw-away goofy shit. There is no good melody there. The music is just poor composed and ultra boring. The sound quality of the samples chosen can be important, but many great soundtracks have a very primitive sound.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Usually the best music you ever hear in a Tales game is at the title screen, but I also thought Destiny and Eternia had some decent music scattered about. Symphonia too...but it was pretty rare. The place I am saved at now in Symphonia...Derris Kharlan(?) has a nice bittersweet track, of course it is like the endgame dungeon.

I can't fathom what people may have culled from Symphonia's plot as 'strong narrative'. Exspheres? Keycrests? Mana seed? Angels and puppets? Collette's Deus-ex clumsiness??

I actually believe FFX-2 delivered a more substantative, engrossing narrative with Rikku spitting out lines like 'Disasteriffic!' for 30+ plus hours.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Brandon F said:
Usually the best music you ever hear in a Tales game is at the title screen, but I also thought Destiny and Eternia had some decent music scattered about. Symphonia too...but it was pretty rare. The place I am saved at now in Symphonia...Derris Kharlan(?) has a nice bittersweet track, of course it is like the endgame dungeon.

I can't fathom what people may have culled from Symphonia's plot as 'strong narrative'. Exspheres? Keycrests? Mana seed? Angels and puppets? Collette's Deus-ex clumsiness??

I actually believe FFX-2 delivered a more substantative, engrossing narrative with Rikku spitting out lines like 'Disasteriffic!' for 30+ plus hours.

"Oh, poopie!" - Yuna

I can't believe she said that line... FFX2 = worst RPG ever
 

Alex

Member
"I thought Phantasia had some pretty nice music... TOS's music has fine composition but suffers from a poor instrument library, Sakuraba loves his buttrock guitars but the guitar instrument he used sounds horrible, reminds me of N64 Goldeneye in its cheesiness."

What about Meredy's weird dancing theme from Eternia? It's not annoying at all! Say, can I borrow a gun?

I can't say I want to listen impressions from the hardcore Symphonia fans/apologists. I like Tales, I like Symphonia, but to sit around and nitpick SO3 then go on to defend some of the horrible broken and inane elements of Symphonia is the ultimate glass house rule. Espically on stuff like narrative, dungeons, subsystems, etc.
 
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