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[Poona]

Really hoping we can get Hayden, Ewan and/or Yoda in this and doing more than The Force Awakens had. Maybe Mace and Qui Gon too but probably less chance of those.

Not sure how they could exactly use Ewan for Obi Wan (prosthetics or cgi to have him more like Guinness), but hopefully there's some force ghost of him or Yoda with Luke, and maybe Anakin doing something as well. I just at least want Frank Oz returning for Yoda.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Sith can't become Force ghosts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nQXLOK3KtY

 

[Rootbeer]

The single most dissapointing thing for me would be if Luke is not a bit fucked up, after all this spiel about "Who is Luke Skywalker Really" and all the stuff that has happened, I want him damaged and different, but with the old Luke underneath.

So help me god if the movie starts and hes just training Rey like nothing happened...

Obi Wan lived through the entirety of the Jedi Order being slaughtered. Many of them he worked very closely with and probably had a mentorship role with on some level. Not so different from what Luke had to go through. I'm expecting him to be fairly stoic about it all to mirror that. Wounded, sure, but not something he shows outwardly too much.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Kylo is the direct opposite in that we've already seen his layers, but getting the layers and then stopping there and having less development across two more movies which could be used to make him even more interesting would be kind of a bummer I think.

Redemption isn't the only way to make someone interesting.

For example (since Rian Johnson has a link here) Walter White sure as shit got more interesting as Breaking Bad went along. He didn't cease developing as he continued on his path towards kingpin.

There are layers to being (and staying) a real piece of shit, just as there are layers to watching someone try to be a better version of themselves.

 

[MMarston]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nQXLOK3KtY

Yoda explicitly says that Bane is an illusion there

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Yoda explicitly says that Bane is an illusion there

Snoke can be one, too.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nQXLOK3KtY

Bane's an illusion, not a Force ghost like Obi-Wan or Yoda.

Filoni:

“That’s the important thing that I would bring up. Sith don’t live on after death; that doesn’t happen. So, that’s kind of your big clue that that instigation, Bane’s apparition, those are things (and the priestesses say as much) they’ve been in control of, and have brought into being, much like the Father on Mortis brought things into being, different states of reality.”

 

[Lord of Castamere]

The thought of 44 year old Ewan McGregor and 34 year old Hayden Christensen appearing to 64 year old Mark Hamill is still hilarious to me.

 

[MMarston]

Snoke can be one, too.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Some of the links in the OP refer to some big changes for VIII. Any clue what those might be? Besides Kenny Baker being replaced (which I'm assuming is due to age/health)?

 

[Future PhaZe]

There's a reason why Plageuis was written into the new cannon book Tarkin instead of thrown in the bushes.

He's suggesting that because Abrams had production lie about the identity of John Harrison in the run up to Into Darkness' release, that he's doing the same thing regarding Darth Plagueis, even though Abrams has since apologized for that subterfuge, and acknowledged it hurt his film, and both he and Kathleen Kennedy have told press that such shenanigans would not be undergone at Lucasfilm.

absolute nonsense for them to say they'll never not spoil a future movie again--come on lol

 

[MMarston]

Some of the links in the OP refer to some big changes for VIII. Any clue what those might be? Besides Kenny Baker being replaced (which I'm assuming is due to age/health)?

Well, Mayhew was already being doubled in half of TFA.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

absolute nonsense

The contents of your argument.

He's not Plagueis.

The shit is tired.

 

[brandonh83]

There are layers to being (and staying) a real piece of shit, just as there are layers to watching someone try to be a better version of themselves.

Absolutely-- so we're not on opposite ends here. It's just going to be very interesting to see where this goes. If Kylo dies, I don't want to be pumping pompoms into the air like a cheerleader, but feeling a variety of emotions and I'm worried that if they go the super evil route that it may lose some of the humanity that has been established in him already. I doubt it though, Johnson is talented and I trust them to come up with something great.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

There's a reason why Plageuis was written into the new cannon book Tarkin instead of thrown in the bushes.

Yeah, it's probably because Luceno wanted to reference his previous book on Plageuis in Tarkin. I wouldn't take the books as an indication of the direction of the sequel trilogy.

 

[LegendofLex]

Abrams was asked that at a panel (actually, Kasdan was, but Abrams answered) - the answer was a firm "no".

This was from a pre-Ep VII panel (July 2015), though, asking about Ep VII, wasn't it? And ultimately Plagueis wasn't mentioned in Ep VII (the question was specifically asking whether we'd see something like a character finding his old staff or something in Ep VII), so the "no" answer will forever hold true no matter what they do in future films.

edit: I don't want this to be construed as my support for the Plagueis theory, I'm just saying the evidence being cited (assuming I'm not missing anything apart from the panel) doesn't really mean anything for the argument about what they might do with future stories.

 

[Ushojax]

There's no way Snoke is Plagueis, they are never going to refer that directly to the prequels.

The Wizard of Oz allusion was so glaringly obvious when he was introduced that I can only see him being a fraud, someone that Kylo quickly usurps. That would be a good direction to take things because the shadowy, withered Dark Lord has been done to death in SW media.

 

[FloatOn]

The only way I see Kylo getting any kind of redemption is him falling on his lightsaber

He (and us the audience) realizes that there is coming back from killing Han

His redemption would be him taking his own life as to not to continue to cause suffering to others because he realizes he is incappable of doing anything good at this point.

 

[Future PhaZe]

The force awakens novel confirms that Snoke is strong in the force--he directly attempts to manipulate Rey.

I'm not sure in what sense he could be a fraud.

 

[brandonh83]

edit: I don't want this to be construed as my support for the Plagueis theory, I'm just saying the evidence being cited (assuming I'm not missing anything apart from the panel) doesn't really mean anything for the argument about what they might do with future stories.

I don't think Snoke is Plageuis but yeah, JJ's answer may have been meaningless. For one, he'll lie to keep truths covered. I honestly would too if I were trying to keep secrets. For two, he could've said no so that fewer people would ask him again or speculate it. Third, he's not going to answer it either way. And you're right, Plageuis is not in the movie so he didn't lie. The question wasn't asking if Snoke were Plagueis, so his response was genuine. The only thing that gives me pause is that he hesitated for like ten seconds to say anything, but it was likely him thinking it over, whether to crush that speculation or not.

...I still don't think Snoke is Plagueis though. I think if he were, we'd have found out about it already. There's no reason to keep that under wraps once the film hits, honestly. Knowing or not knowing that Snoke is Plagueis going into the next two movies... I don't see why it'd be something to hide until VIII or IX. Most people wouldn't even really give a fuck. Kylo being Han and Leia's son is something that general audiences immediately understand. If there's some huge zinger that Snoke is actually... DARTH PLAGUEIS THE WISE, theaters full of casuals will be like, uh, okay.

 

[GhaleonEB]

He's suggesting that because Abrams had production lie about the identity of John Harrison in the run up to Into Darkness' release, that he's doing the same thing regarding Darth Plagueis, even though Abrams has since apologized for that subterfuge, and acknowledged it hurt his film, and both he and Kathleen Kennedy have told press that such shenanigans would not be undergone at Lucasfilm.

Thanks for this, I had none of this background. Good to hear.

absolute nonsense for them to say they'll never not spoil a future movie again--come on lol

There are other ways to handle this. "We're not talking about that at all," would do the job, regardless of whether the questioner was right or not. But a straight up denial, in particular given the context Bobby Roberts outlined, makes this exceedingly unlikely.

Redemption isn't the only way to make someone interesting.

For example (since Rian Johnson has a link here) Walter White sure as shit got more interesting as Breaking Bad went along. He didn't cease developing as he continued on his path towards kingpin.

There are layers to being (and staying) a real piece of shit, just as there are layers to watching someone try to be a better version of themselves.

Not being familiar with BB (which I will fix at some point), so much this.

Though I wonder if they'll play with the idea somewhat. Ren could very much realize he's gone done fucked up, or come to regret the path he's on (his reaction to killing Han sure wasn't one of empowerment), while still remaining on it. Someone who is beyond redemption and trapped by that would be one (of many) angles to approach a character who remains evil but has considerable depth. He could also realize he's fucked and then just own the hell out of the path he put himself on, if they want to play with that angle.

This was from a pre-Ep VII panel (July 2015), though, asking about Ep VII, wasn't it? And ultimately Plagueis wasn't mentioned in Ep VII (the question was specifically asking whether we'd see something like a character finding his old staff or something in Ep VII), so the "no" answer will forever hold true no matter what they do in future films.

edit: I don't want this to be construed as my support for the Plagueis theory, I'm just saying the evidence being cited (assuming I'm not missing anything apart from the panel) doesn't really mean anything for the argument about what they might do with future stories.

I watched the panel just recently (having avoided all such media until after TFA released), and I feel they shut door on the entire topic. Both in the specific answer, and in the way TFA as a whole was handled. (Among many reasons - they're clearly moving away from Sith being the bad guys, given Ren is not one. I think they're moving the mythology forward and don't want to be encumbered by EU ideas.)

 

[Ushojax]

The force confirms that Snoke is strong in the force--he directly attempts to manipulate Rey.

I'm not sure in what sense he could be a fraud.

In the sense that he is not as powerful as he claims he is. Do we even know if Ben has ever met Snoke in person? There's something fishy about anyone who would use such an enormous hologram to deliver their orders.

 

[Pachimari]

Poe was probably the one character I liked the most coming out of The Force Awakens, and that surprised me. He's really likable and his humor is awesome. I hope he survives Episode VIII.

Besides that, I also hope we will see more of the Knights of Ren and see individual personalities, and that we get more calm scenes with character development for our main heroes.

Are we expecting another Death Star for Episode VIII?

 

[Future PhaZe]

There's no way Snoke is Plagueis, they are never going to refer that directly to the prequels.

I mean...why not? Lmao.

Look, I'll drop the Plageuis stuff, but Snoke is already confirmed as an ancient evil. That in and of itself is going to find its origins in the prequels or further back.

 

[brandonh83]

Are we expecting another Death Star for Episode VIII?

I'm not. A superweapon of some type? Possibly, if the First Order is still trying to rule the galaxy. It only makes sense. However, I don't think it'll be another Death Star type thing, but something different. Hell, when Starkiller exploded, I wonder how much of the First Order it took with it, how many resources they lost on it, etc. We don't have a specific gauge of their size do we, or how many locations they're stationed at?

But no, not another "Death Star."

 

[demosthenes]

I like the idea of Kylo killing Snoke.

Also I'm hoping that like sought the first jedi temple to fix the mistakes of the preceding jedi masters. He couldn't stop Kylo's fall. He wanted to know how the jedi lasted like 20,000 years.

 

[Tookay]

In the sense that he is not as powerful as he claims he is. Do we even know if Ben has ever met Snoke in person? There's something fishy about anyone who would use such an enormous hologram to deliver their orders.

... that's exactly what the Emperor did in ESB, when he was first revealed to the audience.

And he was extremely powerful.

 

[UnforgivenTwin]

I mean...why not? Lmao.

Look, I'll drop the Plageuis stuff, but Snoke is already confirmed as an ancient evil. That in and of itself is going to find its origins in the prequels or further back.

Being from the prequels doesn't mean you are ancient. It's only around 50 years prior to episode 7.

 

[demosthenes]

In the sense that he is not as powerful as he claims he is. Do we even know if Ben has ever met Snoke in person? There's something fishy about anyone who would use such an enormous hologram to deliver their orders.

From han and Leia convo in tfa, I thought they knew who Snoke was. From that I feel like they've met him. Possibly not though.

 

[LegendofLex]

I watched the panel just recently (having avoided all such media until after TFA released), and I feel they shut door on the entire topic. Both in the specific answer, and in the way TFA as a whole was handled. (Among many reasons - they're clearly moving away from Sith being the bad guys, given Ren is not one. I think they're moving the mythology forward and don't want to be encumbered by EU ideas.)

I agree with you on where the story's going, but I'm not sure that that's something you get out of JJ's "no" (or Kasdan's nonchalance) during the panel, given the nature of the question and the film it was directed at, I guess?

Hidalgo's response on twitter seems to suggest we shouldn't look at Snoke's identity as some kind of closely guarded secret behind Ep VII that Kasdan was in on, though.

There's no way Snoke is Plagueis, they are never going to refer that directly to the prequels.

It's probably the only story thread from the PT that has actual intrigue behind it, and what's more it feels like it was clearly set up to be used in this kind of way.

But I like the fact that the ST seems to just be crafting new characters in the setting and status quo of the OT and developing an original story from there, so I'd definitely prefer that they don't.

Sheev's hologram, was big but it wasn't as ridiculous as Snoke's. It was pointedly oversized.

It's at least equally large.

 

[Ushojax]

I mean...why not? Lmao.

Look, I'll drop the Plageuis stuff, but Snoke is already confirmed as an ancient evil. That in and of itself is going to find its origins in the prequels or further back.

They would never use a once-mentioned offscreen character from a movie as divisive as ROTS for the main villain of a new trilogy. I doubt Lawrence Kasdan even knows who he is, just the name is cringey enough to make it a no-go. There is all sorts of baggage associated with Plagueis that would only dredge up stupid stuff like midi-chlorians, wishing Anakin into existence, Palpatine somehow not checking that his master was dead etc.

... that's exactly what the Emperor did in ESB, when he was first revealed to the audience.

And he was extremely powerful.

Sheev's hologram, was big but it wasn't as ridiculous as Snoke's. It was pointedly oversized.

From han and Leia convo in tfa, I thought they knew who Snoke was. From that I feel like they've met him. Possibly not though.

They are certainly aware of him but I don't get the feeling that they know much about him.

 

[brandonh83]

Hidalgo's response on twitter seems to suggest we shouldn't look at Snoke's identity as some kind of closely guarded secret behind Ep VII, though.

Well, that... shoots it down. Snoke isn't Plagueis.

...but who is he? Dun dun dunnnn.

 

[Mariolee]

Well, that... shoots it down. Snoke isn't Plagueis.

...but who is he? Dun dun dunnnn.

Snoke is Snoke you guys.

 

[brandonh83]

Snoke is Snoke you guys.

Probably. But I doubt his actual name is Snoke and I'm super eager to learn more about him and what his role in all this is.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Being from the prequels doesn't mean you are ancient. It's only around 50 years prior to episode 7.

My point was that if he's an ancient evil, his origins are going to be from a time before the "golden age" of the original trilogy.

They would never use a once-mentioned offscreen character from a movie as divisive as ROTS for the main villain of a new trilogy. I doubt Lawrence Kasdan even knows who he is, just the name is cringey enough to make it a no-go. There is all sorts of baggage associated with Plagueis that would only dredge up stupid stuff like midi-chlorians, wishing Anakin into existence, Palpatine somehow not checking that his master was dead etc.

A cringey name...about the origins of a guy named Snoke? Lol. Your other points are easily explained or ignored (midicholorians).

 

[LegendofLex]

Snoke is Snoke you guys.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but even Serkis's answer ("Snoke is Snoke") doesn't really say anything since certainly Darth Plagueis has a "real" identity.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Well, that... shoots it down. Snoke isn't Plagueis.

...but who is he? Dun dun dunnnn.

Snoke is you.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Just playing devil's advocate here

it's not really necessary, though. Or all that helpful. There's gotta be a purpose to playing "devil's advocate" beyond just "well maybe there's a clerical error here or something." Something meaningful has to come (or be intended) from playing at that game (even with such goofy stakes as a plot point of a Star Wars movie) otherwise it's just allowing for bad arguments to live longer than needed.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Well, that... shoots it down. Snoke isn't Plagueis.

...but who is he? Dun dun dunnnn.

Maybe...he's just Snoke.

We may get some backstory but I'm not sure why people are hung up on it having to be a mystery/twist.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but even Serkis's answer ("Snoke is Snoke") doesn't really say anything since certainly Darth Plagueis has a "real" identity.

There's playing advocate and putting your fingers in your ears and going "dadadadada".

 

[Astarte]

I want Kylo Ren to be irredeemably evil and just be a child murdering psychopath. Everyone's trying to save him and he's just yelling about the dark side.

 

[LegendofLex]

it's not really necessary, though. Or all that helpful.

Intellectually honest conversation is, I think, pretty fucking necessary, even if you're not personally a fan of where it leads.

Something meaningful has to come (or be intended) from playing at that game (even with such goofy stakes as a plot point of a Star Wars movie) otherwise it's just allowing for bad arguments to live longer than needed.

Bad arguments are ones that take for granted conclusions that aren't borne out definitively by the evidence.

You're thinking of "arguments I don't like," which is something different entirely.

There's playing advocate and putting your fingers in your ears and going "dadadadada".

I don't think Snoke is Plagueis.

 

[brandonh83]

Snoke is you.

 

[Ushojax]

I want Kylo Ren to be irredeemably evil and just be a child murdering psychopath. Everyone's trying to save him and he's just yelling about the dark side.

I think we already had one of those.

 

[-griffy-]

Anakin/Vader was great because we discovered his layers along the way; Kylo is the direct opposite in that we've already seen his layers, but getting the layers and then stopping there and having less development across two more movies which could be used to make him even more interesting would be kind of a bummer I think. I'm not saying you can't make a purely evil dickbag interesting and further developed, but it's tricky to do so while keeping the audience at least a bit sympathetic.

I want to expand on that before I sound crazy. Kylo was pretty bad in VII, but it was written to where you feel like he has personal reasons and demons for his actions, much like Anakin, so he isn't this 100% despicable character. He was clearly conflicted through the entire thing; hell I'd argue he was still conflicted during the saber duel. I think he could've killed Finn had he really wanted and that slice up the back seemed very calculated. Kylo was super pissed at him for his defection, yet still didn't just immediately kill him. And he could have if he wanted. So while he had just committed a murder and apparently in turn committed to the dark side, I don't think he was fully over there.

You may disagree with this and that's totally great as we're all speculating, but while I'm pissed at Kylo for what he did, when I think about it and take certain things like that into consideration, I don't think they're going to make it that simple. He did something terrible and then injured Finn, but... again, only injured Finn. It's possible that he thought he had killed him, but I don't know. After that defection you'd think Kylo would have enough justification to cut his fucking head off on the spot, yet he toyed with him for a bit and didn't go all-in. This tells me something. I realize he was also injured by the bow blast, but if he was really that upset with Finn and really wanted to kill him, I think it would've happened on the spot.

I just think Kylo was a fantastic character because there was more to him and I don't know that I would love it if he was just evil going forward without much else to say about it. We could learn more about his past that would help add more, but I really hope they find a way to keep him as interesting as he was in this one. That's pretty much all I ask, regardless of the direction they go in and I think they're good enough storytellers to keep it compelling so here's hoping. Will he get darker and more evil? Probably, so I'm not totally disagreeing, I'm just saying I get more out of the character than "I'm super evil now" and I think there's gonna be more to it.

You don't need to feel sympathy for a villain, but feeling empathy is important to making them complicated and interesting. It's the difference between feeling bad for Kylo vs. understanding the feeling he is going through and relating to that. We already have empathy for Kylo Ren in that we understand why he is doing the stuff he is doing. We understand why he made the choice to kill Han, but we don't feel sympathetic to that because we don't like that he does it. We aren't gonna sit Kylo down to comfort him and try to find the silver lining of his current situation. It's more like: "Fuck him...but I get it. Dammit."

In other words, because Kylo Ren's motivations are so well realized, we can project ourselves into Kylo Ren's mindset and understand his point of view and share those feelings and let them effect us, even when we don't agree with him. We can understand feeling like we aren't living up to our potential, unsure of our position in the universe, yearning for a reason or sense of belonging, making a bad decision for the wrong reasons because you believe it's the right one at the time, etc. We've all felt insecure. We've been there at least, so if we can see a bit of ourself in the villain in that way, that's what makes him a complicated character even when he crosses the line into patricide, and any horrible things he does in the future.

They are off to a strong start with Kylo in this regard, and as long as they continue to develop the character as a real and flawed human then we as the audience should still be able to understand and relate to him even if his arc is just going darker and darker.

 

[Surfinn]

Not sure if I'm a fan of the predictability of Kylo killing Snoke to take his place/become leader and ruler of the first order. Again, it could be done well, but I'd rather them take a different route from "apprentice kills the master for power" SW cliche.

Sort of diminishes the power and mystery of Snoke as a character, and personally, I hope they keep his background as much of a mystery as Yoda's (at least before the PT released and ruined much of it).

 

[UnforgivenTwin]

Snoke is you.

Snoke is love

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Intellectually honest conversation is, I think, pretty fucking necessary

I already further elaborated on my point in an edit above, but to reiterate: "Playing Devil's Advocate" with no larger purpose behind it isn't really "playing Devil's Advocate" at all, it's just prolonging shitty arguments. It's life-support for bad-faith discussion.

Look at Phaze's argument there and tell me what about it is deserving of the Devil's Advocating you're doing. Anyone who substitutes actual logic and support for liberal helpings of "LOL" and "LMFAO" isn't doing themselves any real favors, and I don't understand why someone as good at critical thought and self-expression would waste time "devil's advocating" for that without any real end point of worth.

You're thinking of "arguments I don't like,"

No, I'm not.

 

[brandonh83]

They are off to a strong start with Kylo in this regard, and as long as they continue to develop the character as a real and flawed human then we as the audience should still be able to understand and relate to him even if his arc is just going darker and darker.

Right, pretty much what I was getting at, they've already established this and I'd rather they keep making him more interesting as it goes. Just saying there's always the chance of him becoming a stereotypical villain and I don't want that. My slight fear of that is what prompted my response to Bobby, but my faith in them is much higher than my fears.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Snoke could be a random guy that had plastic surgery to hide the real Snoke. Shove in a few Moby Dick references and you're done.