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[UnforgivenTwin]

Snoke could be a random guy that had plastic surgery to hide the real Snoke. Shove in a few Mobey Dick references and you're done.

He's actually Mrs. Doubtfire.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

He's actually Mrs. Doubtfire.

Spy footage from the set of Episode 8:

 

[brandonh83]

Guys I also think Snoke is Snoke, but I do think there's a chance of him having another name (Snoke kinda sucks... no, it does suck full-stop so that's my deeper hopes of him having another name) and an intriguing background/story. I don't think he's a previously-existing character, though he could have ties to other characters in the past such as Plagueis or Palpatine, being apparently so old.

 

[LegendofLex]

I already further elaborated on my point in an edit above, but to re-iterate: "Playing Devil's Advocate" with no larger purpose behind it isn't really "playing Devil's Advocate" at al;, it's just prolonging shitty arguments. It's life-support for bad-faith discussion.

Look at Phaze's argument there and tell me what about it is deserving of the Devil's Advocating you're doing. Anyone who substitutes actual logic and support for liberal helpings of "LOL" and "LMFAO" isn't doing themselves any real favors, and I don't understand why someone as good at critical thought and self-expression would waste time "devil's advocating" for that without any real end point of worth waiting.

Actually, that's literally the meaning and origin of the phrase.

I've commented on most of the major evidence used in discussions about the Plagueis theory, and found that JJ's "no" doesn't dismiss the theory (given the scope of the question, the answer is true simply by looking at Ep VII regardless of what happens in the next ones, because the thing the guy asked about didn't happen in Ep VII), and that Serkis's answer likewise doesn't tell us anything about who Snoke is except for that he's - in a stunning twist - actually Snoke (which of course is a wholly non-answer if Snoke is indeed a figure who's existed in the universe prior to Ep VII, regardless of whether he has another alias).

If that was the scope of the evidence, then it'd be intellectually dishonest to look at this discussion as some kind of closed-case thing. You'd still be free to not favor the idea, but the evidence alone wouldn't prove your point. That very assertion would, itself, be a "shitty argument," to use your phrase, since it would be relying on untested assumptions. I think it's worthwhile to point this out, otherwise we, to use your phrase, "allow shitty arguments to draw breath."

But I've also pointed to the Hidalgo tweets as a much better indicator that there's probably not some super secret Snoke-Plagueis tie, since he pretty much says outright that we can consider the theory shot down. Had anyone even brought them into the discussion prior to this? They're really the best proof out there against the Plagueis idea, much better than any comment from JJ or Serkis.

But go on, tell me again how this is a detriment to discussion.

 

[Quick]

Snoke is Ekons backwards.

 

[Mr Cola]

Cant wait to go to celebration, got tickets to the friday, i hope they show a quick teaser though given its 18 months or so out from then id imagine not.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Look at Phaze's argument there and tell me what about it is deserving of the Devil's Advocating you're doing.

And the flaw in my argument is....what?

 

[MMarston]

Snoke is Vince McMahon

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Actually, that's literally the meaning and origin of the phrase.

And you're basically just proving the point I was making earlier by posting up wikipedia links like that somehow kneecaps the argument I'm making about wasting your time unnecessarily by allowing for shitty arguments to draw prolonged breath.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing - ABOUT the sake of arguing, even.

Snoke is not Plagueis, and the argument as presented in the thread you're replying to is a shitty one. There's no reason to advocate (even Devil's) for it. Zero. You're a partner at a law firm swooping in to defend a guy who fell asleep at the wheel and parked his datsun on a fire hydrant at 35mph.

And the flaw in my argument is....what?

I've already told you.

 

[Nibel]

Snoke is fucking Snoke

 

[brandonh83]

Cant wait to go to celebration, got tickets to the friday, i hope they show a quick teaser though given its 18 months or so out from then id imagine not.

I'm hoping it comes back to Florida in the next few years. I went when it was in Indianapolis for two of them and got in a line at like 4am to see the toy salesman himself, decked out in flannel and jeans.

 

[Ensirius]

Hyped as fuck

 

[Yoshichan]

hypeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[UnforgivenTwin]

Hyped as fuck

The avatar fits perfectly with your comment lol.

 

[TheXbox]

Kylo is gonna turn around within, like, the first act of Episode VIII. "Completing his training" means killing Leia, and he's not gonna do it. They make a big point in the script about Kylo feeling empty and shitty after the bridge sequence - and, on top of that, he KNOWS Snoke is using him.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Kylo is gonna turn around within, like, the first act of Episode VIII. "Completing his training" means killing Leia, and he's not gonna do it. They make a big point in the script about Kylo feeling empty and shitty after the bridge sequence - and, on top of that, he KNOWS Snoke is using him.

I see him more as buying into the sunk costs fallacy. He'll just keep doubling down. He's been doing it since he first turned, honestly. If he turns back to the light now, after killing his father, it will really have all been for nothing. I don't think he'll let that ride.

I bet his idea of "completing his training" and Snoke's end up being preeeetty different in Episode 8.

 

[GotchaForce]

Kylo is gonna turn around within, like, the first act of Episode VIII. "Completing his training" means killing Leia, and he's not gonna do it. They make a big point in the script about Kylo feeling empty and shitty after the bridge sequence - and, on top of that, he KNOWS Snoke is using him.

If Kylo lays a finger on her Chewie will leave a bowcaster bolt size hole in his head.

For maximum viewer catharsis I propose in 8 or 9 a Hulk/Loki beat down but Chewie/Kylo.

 

[Surfinn]

I see him more as buying into the sunk costs fallacy. He'll just keep doubling down. He's been doing it since he first turned, honestly. If he turns back to the light now, after killing his father, it will really have all been for nothing. I don't think he'll let that ride.

I bet his idea of "completing his training" and Snoke's end up being preeeetty different in Episode 8.

His murder of Han was clearly a "no turning back" point which MUST set the precedent for what kind of character he will have become in EP8, I think (god knows he won't have any other path now that Snoke is completing his training). He failed in a way that Luke did not (saving his father, refusing to turn), and his progression will reflect that.

Like you said, otherwise that scene was created essentially for nothing.

That's why I think he ultimately will NOT turn to the light side. If he did redeem himself in the end, it sort of sends the message of "I can literally murder and betray my family and can still succeed in the end" and the significance of Han's death will have been indirectly illegitimized as a result.

And no, Anakin killing kids isn't a good comparison considering the thoughtlessness of the PT.

 

[brandonh83]

For maximum viewer catharsis I propose in 8 or 9 a Hulk/Loki beat down but Chewie/Kylo.

Tagline for Episode IX's poster: "Arms will be Ripped from Sockets"

 

[Future PhaZe]

I've already told you.

And it couldn't be more hollow a piece of evidence.

Kylo is gonna turn around within, like, the first act of Episode VIII. "Completing his training" means killing Leia, and he's not gonna do it. They make a big point in the script about Kylo feeling empty and shitty after the bridge sequence - and, on top of that, he KNOWS Snoke is using him.

Does Kylo know that? Didn't get that part. Might have missed it.

 

[LegendofLex]

And you're basically just proving the point I was making earlier by posting up wikipedia links like that somehow kneecaps the argument I'm making about wasting your time unnecessarily by allowing for shitty arguments to draw prolonged breath.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing - ABOUT the sake of arguing, even.

Nope, I'm arguing because the evidence that's commonly tossed around isn't as conclusive as most people have claimed it is. (Otherwise I'd simply agree with you, since clearly we have the same final conclusion?)

Meanwhile, I also tossed in different evidence that I see as much more conclusive - it even favors the same conclusion!

 

[TheXbox]

Does Kylo know that? Didn't get that part. Might have missed it.

In the script he does:

ON THE BRIDGE, Han moves closer, stern:

HAN
Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you -- you know it's true.

Kylo hesitates. Somehow, he does know it.

KYLO REN
It's too late.

 

[brickarts295]

Pss you're all fools, obviously Snoke is Decoy Octopus

 

[GotchaForce]

Tagline for Episode IX's poster: "Arms will be Ripped from Sockets"

*exploitation movie voice over* He thought his training was finished, but what Kylo Ren didn't know was, "always *rip*. let *tear*. the wookie *blood spurt*. win *arm to the face*.".

 

[Surfinn]

In the script he does:

Yup, was gunna post this.

I think he's known it for some time.

 

[Astarte]

I think we already had one of those.

Nah, leetel ahhhnee redeems himself in the end.

 

[brandonh83]

*exploitation movie voice over* He thought his training was finished, but what Kylo Ren didn't know was, "always *rip*. let *tear*. the wookie *blood spurt*. win *arm to the face*.".

I could picture that as I read. Nicely done.

 

[LegendofLex]

Yup, was gunna post this.

I think he's known it for some time.

Given that I think we're supposed to read Kylo as a character who's deluding himself after being deluded by others, that scene still came off to me as him being somewhat in denial, even if his father's warning causes his doubts to rise to the surface.

That's something they could play with much more deeply than what we got with Vader in the OT or even Anakin in the PT. Kinda makes me warm to the redemption idea a little more, now that I think about it.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

People still believe JJ is lying about Snoke not being Plageus?

We have to dispel with this fiction that JJ Abrams doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing.

 

[Future PhaZe]

In the script he does:

oh my, very interesting

 

[Minamu]

Considering they've said that the "entire cast" is returning, any chance of you know who coming back in some form? :/

 

[MMarston]

Pss you're all fools, obviously Snoke is Decoy Octopus

Solo Skywalker Simulation

 

[brandonh83]

We have to dispel with this fiction that JJ Abrams doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing.

It's a minority. Not really a big deal.

 

[chicko1983]

any news on BDT's character?

Could he be a good guy or is it more likely a bad one?

 

[brandonh83]

any news on BDT's character?

Could he be a good guy or is it more likely a bad one?

I think the popular rumor is that he's

Spoiler

Thrawn

but I have no idea how much weight it actually holds. Seems like fanboy speculation to me.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

any news on BDT's character?

Could he be a good guy or is it more likely a bad one?

Originally he said he was a villain but he's backpedaled a bit since.

 

[TheXbox]

I see him more as buying into the sunk costs fallacy. He'll just keep doubling down. He's been doing it since he first turned, honestly. If he turns back to the light now, after killing his father, it will really have all been for nothing. I don't think he'll let that ride.

I bet his idea of "completing his training" and Snoke's end up being preeeetty different in Episode 8.

This is something they kinda started to touch on during the bridge sequence ("It's too late"). It'll be interesting to see Johnson and Trevorrow wrestle with that idea, and how Kylo deals with it. If he's wrong, what does that make him?

For my money, I just don't think Star Wars is cynical enough to totally condemn this character. Someone who is loved, someone who has been abused and manipulated, someone who is proven to still possess a modicum of decency - and then for the series to say, "There is no hope for this character"? I don't see it happening. Redemption is in the DNA of Star Wars. It goes back to Han Solo, even Ben and Yoda, and finally Luke and Vader.

Kylo will have his redemption, but it'll be messy, and it ends with him dying.

 

[Surfinn]

Given that I think we're supposed to read Kylo as a character who's deluding himself after being deluded by others, that scene still came off to me as him being somewhat in denial, even if his father's warning causes his doubts to rise to the surface.

That's something they could play with much more deeply than what we got with Vader in the OT or even Anakin in the PT. Kinda makes me warm to the redemption idea a little more, now that I think about it.

Right. He's always known (in the back of his mind), just never fully accepted it until his own father confronts him with it. He had doubts until that point.

I do think that scene can be interpreted as foreshadowing for Kylo's realization of his place in the first order (he will ultimately confront the fact that Snoke has been using him for his power all along). Whether that means he will kill and replace him, redeem himself and step away from Snoke/the dark side or do something else entirely, has yet to be fleshed out.

He could simply distance himself from Snoke and pave his OWN path, enraging Snoke, who then turns on KYLO instead. Snoke attacks Kylo who defends himself, gets beat badly, then Luke steps in to defeat Snoke while Kylo escapes and continues to evolve his identity.

After all, we've seen that Kylo is too weak to fully commit to the light OR dark, so maybe his path of destruction continues on a greater scale.

This is something they kinda started to touch on during the bridge sequence ("It's too late"). It'll be interesting to see Johnson and Trevorrow wrestle with that idea, and how Kylo deals with it. If he's wrong, what does that make him?

For my money, I just don't think Star Wars is cynical enough to totally condemn this character. Someone who is loved, someone who has been abused and manipulated, someone who is proven to still possess a modicum of decency - and then for the series to say, "There is no hope for this character"? I don't see it happening. Redemption is in the DNA of Star Wars. It goes back to Han Solo, even Ben and Yoda, and finally Luke and Vader.

Kylo will have his redemption, but it'll be messy, and it ends with him dying.

For me, he betrays the last bit of his decency by murdering his father in cold blood (who just wants him to come home). Not saying it's impossible, but it's hard to come back from that ultimate decision. Even Vader didn't have the strength to do it (or rather, HAD the strength to).

 

[LegendofLex]

This is something they kinda started to touch on during the bridge sequence ("It's too late"). It'll be interesting to see Johnson and Trevorrow wrestle with that idea, and how Kylo deals with it. If he's wrong, what does that make him?

For my money, I just don't think Star Wars is cynical enough to totally condemn this character. Someone who is loved, someone who has been abused and manipulated, someone who is proven to still possess a modicum of decency - and then for the series to say, "There is no hope for this character"? I don't see it happening. Redemption is in the DNA of Star Wars. It goes back to Han Solo, even Ben and Yoda, and finally Luke and Vader.

Kylo will have his redemption, but it'll be messy, and it ends with him dying.

I wonder, though, how a series like a Star Wars - one that has this streak all over its DNA, as you say - would deal with a character who ultimately disappoints those who were hoping for his redemption.

To some extent we get a glimpse of this kind of idea with the PT, where Obi-Wan is forced to confront Anakin after pleading with him to stop what he's doing, lest he move on to even more horrific acts. And Obi-Wan's cynicism about Anakin persists even to ROTJ. But that story already had a known endpoint, and it ended with Anakin's redemption.

What if Kylo, who already knows redemption from the dark side is possible (based on Vader's example) and even grapples with the decision to turn his back on it within TFA ("the call to the light," his confrontation with his father), actually never makes that choice?

I'm still trying to understand what the benefits are of staying away from the title of Sith.

My money's on the writers wanting the freedom to develop the factions at play in a way that doesn't have the expectations of old EU fans hanging over it. The best way to do that is a clean break - create new factions with new names instead of using the old ones. Same thing for the First Order/Resistance.

 

[Future PhaZe]

I'm still trying to understand what the benefits are of staying away from the title of Sith.

 

[TAJ]

I don't think Snoke is Plageuis but yeah, JJ's answer may have been meaningless. For one, he'll lie to keep truths covered. I honestly would too if I were trying to keep secrets. For two, he could've said no so that fewer people would ask him again or speculate it. Third, he's not going to answer it either way. And you're right, Plageuis is not in the movie so he didn't lie. The question wasn't asking if Snoke were Plagueis, so his response was genuine. The only thing that gives me pause is that he hesitated for like ten seconds to say anything, but it was likely him thinking it over, whether to crush that speculation or not.

...I still don't think Snoke is Plagueis though. I think if he were, we'd have found out about it already. There's no reason to keep that under wraps once the film hits, honestly. Knowing or not knowing that Snoke is Plagueis going into the next two movies... I don't see why it'd be something to hide until VIII or IX. Most people wouldn't even really give a fuck. Kylo being Han and Leia's son is something that general audiences immediately understand. If there's some huge zinger that Snoke is actually... DARTH PLAGUEIS THE WISE, theaters full of casuals will be like, uh, okay.

JJ's denial was meaningless, true. But Kasdan was genuinely confused by the question, so there's your answer.

 

[Future PhaZe]

I
My money's on the writers wanting the freedom to develop the factions at play in a way that doesn't have the expectations of old EU fans hanging over it. The best way to do that is a clean break - create new factions with new names instead of using the old ones. Same thing for the First Order/Resistance.

Definitely could be. The difference though is The First Order couldn't really assume the title of Galactic Empire because of the messy way that went down...splinter factions, not actually an empire, etc. The Sith mantle is wide open for the taking.

 

[Mr Cola]

I think 100% Yoda and Obi are in ep8, the fact they brought back Oz/Ewan to reprise their roles + we know force ghosts exists and there is absolutely no reason for them not to exist going forward means we will see something.

Up in the air is Anakin, personally id love them to bring back Hayden under different direction, what a mindfuck that would be, seeing young Anakin and Luke talking.

 

[maquiladora]

John Williams is confirmed for this?

 

[Omegasquash]

I see him more as buying into the sunk costs fallacy. He'll just keep doubling down. He's been doing it since he first turned, honestly. If he turns back to the light now, after killing his father, it will really have all been for nothing. I don't think he'll let that ride.

I bet his idea of "completing his training" and Snoke's end up being preeeetty different in Episode 8.

This. Money on some awful things happening to him.

And he absolutely needs to stay the course. He slaughtered Jedi in training. He was the instrument in destroying the work that Luke had done. He was party to the destruction of the better part of a solar system (though I'm not sure about how he felt about that, I got the feeling that he didn't want it to happen). He killed his father in cold blood.

I have real fears about him pulling a Vader at the end and getting what he wants, after murdering some other characters, but I don't want it to happen. He's aware of what he's doing, he's conscious that he's the bad guy. I kinda hope he gets it badly.

 

[Surfinn]

John Williams is confirmed for this?

He's expressed intentions of doing the whole trilogy, as far as I know, but there's no official confirmation he's doing EP8/9.

 

[LegendofLex]

Definitely could be. The difference though is The First Order couldn't really assume the title of Galactic Empire because of the messy way that went down...splinter factions, not actually an empire, etc. The Sith mantle is wide open for the taking.

Well, in an alternate universe where the writers wanted to still refer to the Empire as the Empire, they could have simply not have the Empire fracture in the way it did. When we're trying to examine the way things turned out from "what the writers wanted to achieve," there's really no reason to try to examine what's possible within the universe since the writers are the ones shaping the universe in the first place.

 

[Joeytj]

I wonder, though, how a series like a Star Wars - one that has this streak all over its DNA, as you say - would deal with a character who ultimately disappoints those who were hoping for his redemption.

To some extent we get a glimpse of this kind of idea with the PT, where Obi-Wan is forced to confront Anakin after pleading with him to stop what he's doing, lest he move on to even more horrific acts. And Obi-Wan's cynicism about Anakin persists even to ROTJ. But that story already had a known endpoint, and it ended with Anakin's redemption.

What if Kylo, who already knows redemption from the dark side is possible (based on Vader's example) and even grapples with the decision to turn his back on it within TFA ("the call to the light," his confrontation with his father), actually never makes that choice?


My money's on the writers wanting the freedom to develop the factions at play in a way that doesn't have the expectations of old EU fans hanging over it. The best way to do that is a clean break - create new factions with new names instead of using the old ones. Same thing for the First Order/Resistance.

A key to letting Obi-Wan be cynical about Anakin in the PT, is that his character still had hope in Luke, making Obi-Wan seem less cynical in a way. So even in this situation, it is an exception that proves the point that Star Wars has very little room for cynical characters that are without hope.

We might not get a redemption from Kylo Ren like we did for Anakin, but he's not going to be the embodiment of evil like Sidious was.

 

[Future PhaZe]

JJ's denial was meaningless, true. But Kasdan was genuinely confused by the question, so there's your answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fMx670jOnw

he knew exactly what was being referenced and JJ even admitted as much

its not evidence against it

This. Money on some awful things happening to him.

And he absolutely needs to stay the course. He slaughtered Jedi in training. He was the instrument in destroying the work that Luke had done. He was party to the destruction of the better part of a solar system (though I'm not sure about how he felt about that, I got the feeling that he didn't want it to happen). He killed his father in cold blood.

I have real fears about him pulling a Vader at the end and getting what he wants, after murdering some other characters, but I don't want it to happen. He's aware of what he's doing, he's conscious that he's the bad guy. I kinda hope he gets it badly.

I mean Vader was "redeemed", but he couldn't have been more forced into it. Sidious wanted him dead by Lukes hand and voiced that much. At that point there's no way he could have ever worked under Sidious again. And Luke was clearly never going to turn to the dark side.

I'm not sure that I see Kylo willingly going to the lightside without getting beat the fuck down into it on top of being thrown away by Snoke, but I think both things happen so..

 

[LegendofLex]

A key to letting Obi-Wan be cynical about Anakin in the PT, is that his character still had hope in Luke, making Obi-Wan seem less cynical in a way. So even in this situation, it is an exception that proves the point that Star Wars has very little room for cynical characters that are without hope.

We might not get a redemption from Kylo Ren like we did for Anakin, but he's not going to be the embodiment of evil like Sidious was.

Well, I think that's kind of an overstatement of what I'm saying, which isn't that he's going to be some kind of embodiment of evil like Sidious, but that sometimes people - even people who still have shreds of goodness in them in the midst of their horrible life decisions - never have their moment to not disappoint us.

Star Wars is about hope, yes, but it's also about family, and not every prodigal son ends up inevitably taking their chance to come back home. I don't think every member of the family needs to end up on the same side in the end for it to be a good story about family.