Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Star wars borrowed quite a bit from lotr too...so its easy to confuse something that was really a lotr thing for a star wars thing.
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Star Wars: In Production [Rumors/SPOILERS for All Films Past, Present, & Future]
- Thread starter inm8num2
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Star wars borrowed quite a bit from lotr too...so its easy to confuse something that was really a lotr thing for a star wars thing.
freethought
Member
^^^Did it really though? It borrowed heavily from the old serials Lucas watched as kid, took liberally from Hidden Fortress and basically every other Kurosawa film with Mifune playing the wise ageing samurai and Lucas was apparently in constant communication with Joseph Campbell. All of this is very obvious, the Tolkien influence, I dunno, I don't see it.
The Hobbit was absolutely 100% my favourite book as a kid. I've read it dozens of times. The stories are entirely dissimilar, the characters are nothing alike. Only the setting bears more relation to Tolkien's work than it does to Star Wars and even then it's a far cry from the fanciful world Tolkien created of talking birds and troll purses, silly elves poking their heads through trees singing mischievous songs and giant spiders taking offense at the word attercop. Instead it opts for a far more generic swords and sorcery setting than anything Tolkien ever conceived.
Nah, he was just Luke, the R2 role was split between the baby (basically standing in for the Death Star plans) and one of the brownies.
The Hobbit was absolutely 100% my favourite book as a kid. I've read it dozens of times. The stories are entirely dissimilar, the characters are nothing alike. Only the setting bears more relation to Tolkien's work than it does to Star Wars and even then it's a far cry from the fanciful world Tolkien created of talking birds and troll purses, silly elves poking their heads through trees singing mischievous songs and giant spiders taking offense at the word attercop. Instead it opts for a far more generic swords and sorcery setting than anything Tolkien ever conceived.
Nah, he was just Luke, the R2 role was split between the baby (basically standing in for the Death Star plans) and one of the brownies.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This too, most definitely.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Bilbo and luke: Both orphans raised by their uncle who live in an obscure corner of the world. Both have their lives disrupted by a semi-mystical old man who convinces them to go on a journey. They are eventually joined by a cast of people from all corners of the galaxy/world. During their adventure the semi-mystical old man dies and later comes back "more powerful then you could ever imagine". The group eventually splits up and goes about their own way ib various subplots only to be reunited in the end
freethought
Member
Yeah, see isn't this just where we actually are just bumping against the monomyth though? I mean I'd personally argue that those elements are just as likely to originate in his watching Kurosawa films or his conversations with Joseph Campbell asthey are in LOTR as there's nothing specific enough to really make your case. Every hero in a great tale is a bored orphan living in a boring town, orphan's a good bit of short hand for early tragedy or mysterious origins and if his life wasn't boring he wouldn't want to leave, semi-mystical old men who end up dying are just as common as orphans too. After all, if he doesn't die, how will the hero ever learn. Also, as far as the narrative is concerned, Frodo doesn't even find out Gandalf is back until it's all over.
I think there's enough specifics in Willow to argue the Star Wars connection, they relate not only to plot and characterisation but story structure, dialogue even costuming and make-up to some extent. None of that except a very loose story structure and some vague character traits (i.e 'orphan' or 'old') really applies to the LOTR/Star Wars comparison, and even then it only holds up for maybe like a third of the book.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The narrative's always gone thusly: Lucas wanted to make Flash Gordon, couldn't get the rights, started writing Star Wars instead (using Tolkien, Campbell, etc. as inspirations)
Lucas wanted to make The Hobbit, couldn't secure the rights, started writing Willow instead. (using Tolkien, Grimm, his own movies, etc. as inspirations)
Now that being said: I'm actually having a hard time backtracking the actual evidence to that Hobbit claim right now. It's been accepted as more or less factual for over 30 years now, but I can't find any articles from 85-87 where Lucas has either said, or was reported to have looked into those rights.
Lucas wanted to make The Hobbit, couldn't secure the rights, started writing Willow instead. (using Tolkien, Grimm, his own movies, etc. as inspirations)
Now that being said: I'm actually having a hard time backtracking the actual evidence to that Hobbit claim right now. It's been accepted as more or less factual for over 30 years now, but I can't find any articles from 85-87 where Lucas has either said, or was reported to have looked into those rights.
freethought
Member
Closest I could find was this:
Lucas' desire for Willow was similar to Star Wars, and created "a number of well-known mythological situations for a young audience"
edit: Also this gem:
"It's a sad thing to be faulting Lucas, maker of the Star Wars trilogy and Raiders of the Lost Ark, for forgetting the tricks of entertainment."
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Some of it is Campbell...some of it isnt. Some of it is LOTR which happens to be campbell. There are some things like obi wan being the obvious stand in for Gandalf that are hard to deny. I think lu as has acknowledged the lotr connection. IIRC he has also said vader was influenced by the witch king.
Also..i think the lotr connection is strongest in ep 4. After that they started going their own way. For instance im pretty sure that when obi wan died the original intent was for him to come back more as a gandalf the white figure.
I can't recall where it is either but Willow's origins were indeed in The Hobbit which Lucas wanted to adapt. At the time of Willow Lucas was very much done with Star Wars and adapting The Hobbit was his next big goal to continue to bankroll the smaller Lucasfilm affair. Willow was meant to be the new Star Wars in essence.
And to the point about Tolkien not being an influence on Star Wars. It very clearly is. I can't recall where but Lucas mentioned Tolkien and his woldbuilding aspect as heavy inspiration. While the most well known influences are Flash Gordon, Kurosawa, and Joseph Campbell I would say the influence of both Frank Herbert's Dune and Tolkien's The Hobbit/LOTR are vital in what made Star Wars.
freethought
Member
See this I don't buy one bit. Kenobi is so much like Mifune's character in Hidden Fortress or Yojimbo or Sanjuro that it's a wonder Lucas wasn't sued. Go watch any of those films, Obi Wan Kenobi is that character. It's utterly blatant. He was meant to return properly after death though, that much is true, but not until episode IX or something and Lucas only came up with that after the first film was released. Originally Kenobi wasn't going to die at all as far as i recall, Guinness asked for that because he didn't want to do a sequel.
Vader too, is so obviously styled after a samurai, he's even in service to a shogun.
edit: It's fun that you all half remember all of this, but maybe stop arguing the point until you can find some evidence for your claims?
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Early drafts of star wars literally had obi wan reciting gandalf dialogue from LOTR. If you want to talk about a lawsuit...
freethought
Member
It wasn't that early a draft, but it was one line and it was from the Hobbit.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
And....? Im not sure what you are trying to argue here. Its been a pretty well accepted fact for like 30 years that LOTR greatly inspired star wars. If the fact that Lucas was lifting dialogue straight from Gandalf doesn't convince you that he was consciously thinking of him when writing obi wans character then nothing will. Obviously he was inspired by minfues character in the hidden fortress too...he was inspired by both! Thankfully theres no rule that when writing a character you can only take traits from one preexisting character.
Im not saying that star wars was only inspired by LOTR...one of the things that makes it great was the fact that it was such a mishmash...but the LOTR inspiration was definitely there.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Toho did sue for a fistful and ended up getting some of the movies profits
freethought
Member
Is it? I mean really? I don't think so but how do you test such a thing? It's not particularly scientific but I went to the wiki page for Star Wars (1977) and did a couple of searches;
flash gordon - 14 matches
hidden fortress - 5 matches
joseph campbell - 1 match
lord of the rings - 1 match (in a section talking about Peter Jacksons movies and how he was influenced by Star Wars)
Toshiro Mifune - 2 matches
Akira Kurosawa - 5 matches
Kurosawa - 8 matches (obviously includes the previous 5)
Gandalf - Phrase not found
J.R.R Tolkien - Phrase not found
JRR Tolkien - Phrase not found
Tolkien - Phrase not found
hobbit - Phrase not found
Not scientific really, but it certainly doesn't help your case.
edit: some more:
Yojimbo - 1 match
Sanjuro - 1 match
olorin - Phrase not found
mithrandir - Phrase not found
Istari - Phrase not found
wizard - 4 matches (oooh what's this? Oh, one generic reference to 'wizards' and three references to The Wizard of Oz. Damn, wrong wizard.)
edit: Last one I swear since someone mentioned Dune and Tatooine is basically Arrakis. Add to that the fact that Han Solo is a 'spice' smuggler plus the whole magic space jesus thing:
Dune - 7 matches (though to be fair two of those are just references to sand dunes)
Frank Herbert - 2 matches
Herbert - 3 matches
vvvv It's from the beginning of the Hobbit. "What makes it a good morning? Do you mean it is a morning to be good on..."
CloudyTuba
Member
Wikipedia is a pretty awful way to determine this. Lucas has mentioned his Tolkien inspiration in interviews. Not to mention he up until the later drafts had Obi-Wan quote Gandalf (no other such explicit references to other media in the scripts) and tried to produce a live action verision of the Hobbit himself in the 80s.
The name Endor was an explicit Tolkien reference as well. It's an elvish translation of the word Middle-Earth.
Here is an article about it from io9
http://io9.com/5966492/10-most-unlikely-things-that-were-shaped-by-jrr-tolkien
unholyrevenger72
Banned
Retrocore9
Banned
Posting to counter some of the nonsense that Lucas had nothing to do with Howard the Duck.
Around 1985, Lucas was going through this Music Video and musician phase. He had made Captain Eo with Michael Jackson and was dating Linda Rondstat. He also liked music videos quite a bit. It was definitely this influence that fed through to Howard the Duck where Beverly is a rock singer. And yes there's a music video for Howard though the director is unknown (either Willard Hyuck or Lucas).
Willard Hyuck and Gloria Katz had written the script for Temple of Doom for Lucas and they wrote and directed Howard the Duck. It also sank their careers. They had given Howard the Duck comics to Lucas back in the 70s and eventually developed the film with him.
Lucas was also on set for Howard the Duck and directed second unit on some shots, probably pick ups. This is per the actors from various interviews.
Howard the Duck was supposed to be a big money maker for Lucasfilm, there was alot riding on it. That didn't happen of course.
Lucas has gone on to state that he wanted Howard the Duck to be a "noir detective film" originally. This is pretty much nonsense and if you are a fan of Lucas you know he likes to stretch the truth alot when it comes to the past. The script for the film that came out is rapid paced with many action sequences which fits in with Lucas' style of the time.
Around 1985, Lucas was going through this Music Video and musician phase. He had made Captain Eo with Michael Jackson and was dating Linda Rondstat. He also liked music videos quite a bit. It was definitely this influence that fed through to Howard the Duck where Beverly is a rock singer. And yes there's a music video for Howard though the director is unknown (either Willard Hyuck or Lucas).
Willard Hyuck and Gloria Katz had written the script for Temple of Doom for Lucas and they wrote and directed Howard the Duck. It also sank their careers. They had given Howard the Duck comics to Lucas back in the 70s and eventually developed the film with him.
Lucas was also on set for Howard the Duck and directed second unit on some shots, probably pick ups. This is per the actors from various interviews.
Howard the Duck was supposed to be a big money maker for Lucasfilm, there was alot riding on it. That didn't happen of course.
Lucas has gone on to state that he wanted Howard the Duck to be a "noir detective film" originally. This is pretty much nonsense and if you are a fan of Lucas you know he likes to stretch the truth alot when it comes to the past. The script for the film that came out is rapid paced with many action sequences which fits in with Lucas' style of the time.
CreepingFear
Member
Hey, Howard the Duck had duck boobies. Duck boobies. I bet you the eventual Marvel Howard the Duck movie won't have that.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Nothing there says he wrote the movie, or contributed to the story. He cut 'em a check. If he shot some second unit (pickups for two days) - that's again, helping out his friends. Every aspect of that production from Lucas' standpoint was basically "You helped me out on Star Wars and Temple of Doom. Let me help you with your passion project."
He didn't write the film, nor did he direct it. He lent them his name for marketing purposes and paid for the picture.
I mean,
Isn't exactly any sort of proof that creative responsibility lies with Lucas on that picture. The people who wrote and directed the flick gave him some of Gerber's comics once. Nobody said Lucas didn't know who Howard the Duck was.
That picture was Huyck & Katz's fuckup. Not Lucas'.
Retrocore9
Banned
I guess you didn't read the part as to how Lucas influenced Beverly's character since has was so interested in music at the time. And that the story and pacing of the film is pure Lucas. I guess working second unit and having his company do all the effects means he had nothing to do with it either? That's pretty odd logic there.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No, I read that part.
This isn't saying anything, really. There's an inference that I don't find to really be based on anything solid. You basically said "he liked Music Videos and was dating a singer - ergo it's obvious that's why the Beverly character is what she is."
I don't think that's obvious at all, especially since he didn't actually work on the script, or the story, with Huyck & Katz. Or at least I've never read an account of that movie saying otherwise.
Nah.
The fact ILM worked on the movie doesn't mean much - ILM works on a lot of movies. And since you already said the extent of his second unit work was a couple days shooting pickup shots, I don't know why you're trying to extrapolate either of those details toward some sort of authorial vision with the movie.
Again - that movie is Huyck & Katz's fuckup. Not Lucas'.
Secret Fawful
Member
Well, I guess I can add not directing Howard the Duck to a list of reasons I have for not hating George Lucas.
freethought
Member
This is really the best evidence you could find? What have we got; a line of dialogue in one draft of the script (and it's Luke who quotes Gandalf by the way) and the name of a moon (or planet, who the fuck knows). It's just not a very strong case is it?
I mean, if it was such a 'widely accepted fact' that Lord of the Rings was 'greatly inspired' by and 'borrowed heavily' from Lord of the RIngs, why can you only find a couple of references to it (only one in the actual films by the way) and second hand mentions of Lucas citing it as an influence? Couldn't it be that your simply overstating said influence?
Oh, and as far as references to other films in Star Wars, the dismembered arm in the cantina is an explicit visual nod to Yojimbo.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You are maybe the only person on the entire internet right now pursuing the notion that Lord of the Rings had no role as a source of influence on both Star Wars AND Willow.
C'mon man. People have been making concessions to your point of view throughout this line of discussion. You don't need to go scorched earth on this particular point.
It makes it even more disingenous to be suggesting someone else's sources are lacking when your previous post was admittedly sourced from a single word search on one wiki entry.
Like I said way back at the beginning of this weird sidetrack (where's the episode 7 spoilers, damn) nobody's really disagreeing with your read, they're just disagreeing with the degree to which the influences being cited really came to bear on the creation of Star Wars & Willow.
freethought
Member
You're confused. I've pursued no such notion. I simply took issue with some of the claims made, namely that it 'borrowed heavily', or it was 'greatly inspired' by. Seriously, go back and read the conversation (or just the post you quoted). Yeah, Lucas has described Tolkien's work as an influence, along with half the western canon.
I don't understand this paragraph though. It kind of sounds like your saying people have been disagreeing with me about the influences I cited and their impact on the film. Aren't I the one doing that? The influences being Tolkien right? Or are you talking about Flash Gordon and Kurosawa? No-one is arguing LOTR was a bigger influence on Star Wars than either of those are they?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I'm basically saying you're coming off as fighting for the fuck of it, basically, or at least, not having the greatest of reasons to keep it going.
not like I haven't indulged said compulsion from time to time.
I mean, feel free to ignore me, I just think things have progressed sideways past the point where pursuing the line of discussion is worthwhile. But then again - it ain't my place to tell you where that point is, really.
Apologies for the attempt.
not like I haven't indulged said compulsion from time to time.
I mean, feel free to ignore me, I just think things have progressed sideways past the point where pursuing the line of discussion is worthwhile. But then again - it ain't my place to tell you where that point is, really.
Apologies for the attempt.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
I did go back and read it...first of all you are the only person to use the phrase "borrowed heavily" so I'm not sure why you are putting it in quotes as if people are saying this to you. I did use the phrase "greatly inspired" which is definitely true (and there is a huge difference between borrowed heavily and greatly inspired). Anyway...your original statement was
"^^^Did it really though? It borrowed heavily from the old serials Lucas watched as kid, took liberally from Hidden Fortress and basically every other Kurosawa film with Mifune playing the wise ageing samurai and Lucas was apparently in constant communication with Joseph Campbell. All of this is very obvious, the Tolkien influence, I dunno, I don't see it."
That to me suggests that you don't see any Tolkien influence at all.
Anyway, here are some excerpts from his interview with Rolling Stone right after Star Wars came out in 77
block tower
Member
are there any photos of the original cast members during filming from the set or cast photos besides the old one from the initial reveal?? im curious to see how Ford, Fischer, and Hamill look. last i saw of Ford he looked pretty ancient and Fischer looked bloated, wondering if they cleaned up for filming.
crackhead_bob
Member
Carrie Fisher always seems hammered when she does interviews. And the weird thing with Hamill is that he has the same exhuberence in his voice as when he was in his early 20's. Not sure if it's a California thing. Watching Carrie Fisher's going to be interesting. She was entertaining in her one woman show a few years back, but it will be interesting what she's going to do this time around. What about Ford? Can Abrams get an earnest performance out of him, or will he just mumble his way through a role that, by his own admission, he never really cared for to begin with.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
If the rumors are correct, the next trailer is going to be centered on them entirely, so you'll be seeing all sorts of in-character images of them. Otherwise, it's just a smattering of paparazzi shots of them going to functions and such during shooting.
I don't think Fisher looks "bloated" in any of them, for what that's worth.
And when is the next trailer? May 4th? No idea at all?
Oh, and speaking of that, any idea when marketing campaign for this will ramp up?
Why in the world do you assume that is the best/all I could find? that was a random link I got while on my phone. There are countless articles about it, many of which source Lucas himself in terms of the influence. Why not just do a simple google search? Not sure why you are so against Lucas being inspired by Tolkien.
I mean when he has a reference to the Silmarillion (Endor) of all things it is pretty obvious Lucas knows his Tolkien.
They given an explanation for WHY someone is a Force Sensitive. Arguably the why of it is utterly pointless, and at worst, it demystifies the Force by giving it a biological, genetic explanation, as opposed to a mystical one.
Plus there's a whole lot of other issues associated with them...
EDIT This seems to be the most common problem. My own problems with them are not quite this.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The rumor I was citing was this one. Thought it had been posted in the thread, but I guess we were fighting over Midichlorians and Tolkiens.
http://www.latino-review.com/news/2...ar-wars-the-force-awakens-to-be-released-soon
Basically, it'll be attached to Avengers according to that, and the suspicion is that it'll drop online before that, and will likely be premiered at Star Wars Celebration in April.
Again: rumor, Latino-Review, big pinches of salt, etc. etc.
Ah, i see.
But in April... isn't the Celebration usually in May? Or am i just mixing Star Wars day with Celebration?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah. Star Wars Celebration is in April.
Haloid1177
Banned
Last one was in August.
Doublesith
Member
The upcoming Celebration was scheduled for April back when TFA's release date was still May.
block tower
Member
nice, i guess ill wait for the next trailer.
My hunch would be no.
edit: Oh yeah, forgot about Celebration. Yeah, I could see one dropping there, too.
block tower
Member
so here's a question, which is a bigger deal on Avengers Age of Ultron opening day; Avengers AoU or Star Wars The Force Awakens trailer?
freethought
Member
I did a google search. I found nothing that offered a stronger case than the article you posted. Usually just some nerd bait article about either LOTR or Star Wars that contains an unsourced mention of Lucas citing LOTR as an influence then if you're lucky a list of some superficial similarities, none of which are as strong as the similarities between Star Wars and Willow btw.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
I apologise, you said 'borrowed quite a bit' not heavily. My mistake.
That Lucas interview though, he mentions Tolkiens name. So what? He's not even saying he was an influence. No, he'd rather compare himself to Edgar Rice Burroughs.
I also love how you seem to think Lucas describing a real place that exists as hobbit-like somehow works as evidence for your claim.
I'd like this to be true but every single rumour and pretty much every site was wrong about the content of the teaser, so I've less than zero faith in these.