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[Bobby Roberts]

Bolded: You're criticizing WoK (Shatner's performance, him hamming it up for Khan) to make ID's choices seem reasonable (that's what I interpreted anyways).

You misinterpreted. I'm saying they tried to come up with a way for the scene to make more sense on a character basis in the story they were telling, which is very different than the story Wrath of Khan was telling.

I would have criticized Wrath of Khan for that scene (and have done) if Into Darkness had never been made (and did so before rebooting Star Trek was ever a thought in anyone's head). That scene became a meme because it was ridiculous, and was always ridiculous, both due to Shatner's hammy acting, and for Montalban's O-Face upon hearing it. I would argue that was the majority reading of that particular scene for YEARS, even before people started making T-shirts out of it and setting up websites devoted to it.

 

[TheKaeptain]

^^^^^^^ the rumors don't sound that bad. It doesn't say anything about the characters' motivations.


Both are pandering, but the Kobayashi Maru scene was the sweet sweet kind. The scene that illustrated Kirk's personality well. The audience I saw it with at an advance screening loved it. They loved Spock Prime. Every Khan-related thing ID tried to do was banal in comparison.

Bolded: You're criticizing WoK (Shatner's performance, him hamming it up for Khan) to make ID's choices seem reasonable (that's what I interpreted anyways). There are lots of people that are willing to disagree on that.

Back to the OT, JJ definitely knows how to get fans going. The art direction and sets are halfway there. I can't decide whether which has more pressure to please the fans: Star Wars 7, or STXIII: the 50th anniversary..

Star Wars without a doubt. It's far more popular with the general public. Star Trek doesn't have the child hood attachment that comes with the Star Wars brand.

 

[LastNac]

^^^^^^^ the rumors don't sound that bad. It doesn't say anything about the characters' motivations.

If true, it seems like J.J. is dumping the same Lego pieces on the ground and reorganizing them so they are "New" enough. I really don't like how uninspired things sound.

 

[LastNac]

You misinterpreted. I'm saying they tried to come up with a way for the scene to make more sense on a character basis in the story they were telling, which is very different than the story Wrath of Khan was telling.

I would have criticized Wrath of Khan for that scene (and have done) if Into Darkness had never been made (and did so before rebooting Star Trek was ever a thought in anyone's head). That scene became a meme because it was ridiculous, and was always ridiculous, both due to Shatner's hammy acting, and for Montalban's O-Face upon hearing it. I would argue that was the majority reading of that particular scene for YEARS, even before people started making T-shirts out of it and setting up websites devoted to it.

I think even basing the film of of its own merits, the moment between Kirk and Spock seems disingenuous. They flip-flop back and forth so much between disdain for one another that I really don't see that scene feeling natural. There just wasn't enough history between the two and what was there didn't seem appropriate to that scene.

 

[Branduil]

That rumor sounds really silly, out of context or if it's even real.

I don't. I'm not the biggest fan of theirs (or much of a fan at all) but the film itself makes it obvious what their intent was so far as the storytelling goes. I'd have to essentially ignore the characterization and the arcs as presented to me (which is hard, since they're reworking stuff they already did in the first movie) in order to substitute a narrative where Orci, Kurtzman, and Abrams are all "YEAH, NOW WE'LL GET 'EM! THOSE OLD FANS WON'T BE ABLE TO RESIST IT!"

Again - I don't think that they're trying to pander to old trekkies, or even appease them. Orci might have been trying to appease himself, maybe, but any writer will do that, really. But I still have a hard time believing they were really trying to pull in the old fans with any of those moves.

If they cared about the old fans to that extent, they wouldn't have ever rebooted. The old fans were seen as a dead end.

They wanted both. They wanted to recapture the character dynamic of the original Star Trek that appealed to old fans while also bringing in a whole new audience by making the series far more action-y and "exciting." ST '09 walked this line reasonably well; Into Darkness did not.

 

[LastNac]

That rumor sounds really silly, out of context or if it's even real.



They wanted both. They wanted to recapture the character dynamic of the original Star Trek that appealed to old fans while also bringing in a whole new audience by making the series far more action-y and "exciting." ST '09 walked this line reasonably well; Into Darkness did not.

And let's be fair, wasn't Nero already Khan to begin with anyway?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It's also entirely possible that the crew is purposely throwing out red herrings to prevent real leaks.

I don't think it's that possible at all. Lucasfilm's M.O. is basically to just shut up and let the tiny percentage of the fanbase willing to entertain this sort of speculation freak itself out and then get distracted by something else within a week.

So far as the rumor goes:

It does make some sort of sense in that we've heard the ending to this movie isn't going to be the happiest, something fucked up is going to turn things sideways at the last minute, and that Luke is going to have SOME part to play in all that.

But what doesn't make sense is the idea that Adam Driver and Gwendoline Christie aren't villain enough for this story, and somehow Luke has to be added to that mix as essentially a three-decade PTSD case that's become a twisted mirror of his dead dad?

Granted, as my page-long argument last page shows, it's not as if JJ hasn't proven he's willing to take classic moments and try to repurpose them for his own story, so long as he thinks he can remix it enough that it fits his story in a new/different way. And it's not as if JJ hasn't proven he can FUMBLE said repurposing in the execution. So it's not beyond the pale that he could try to do something like this.

But it seems weird that Luke's role would be turned into this. It seems weird that he'd be describing his role as Obi-Wan'ish, and growing a big bushy beard, only to end up playing a guy in Vader-cosplay with a clean-shaven, recognizable mouth underneath a bunch of cybernetics. And it seems weird that Driver's character would be sidelined as the big bad of the series so Luke could take that role.

I can see Driver betraying the good guys after appearing to be a good guy all movie long, and then getting rid of Christie, only to reveal he's the TRUE threat. That seems to make sense, especially considering we all seem to know maybe 10% of the film's story total. But maybe there's something in that remaining 90% that explains why/how Luke becoming Vader 2.0 is a good call.

 

[TheKaeptain]

One thing to bring up. We don't know the girl's role in the movie. Maybe there is something more to her story explaining why she would go with an evil looking version of Luke.

 

[pupcoffee]

Speaking of Luke's development, does anyone else find it really dissatisfying how he went from being weak and vulnerable in Empire, to suddenly having sheer Vader-pwning overconfidence in Jedi? And how vadar suddenly became so much less of a frightening figure? The first encounter with Vader, in Jedi, basically goes down like this.

.Luke - "Father, there's still good in you."
Vadar - "No there's not, there's no hope for me."

*Vader, for all intents on purposes, begins to sweat on-screen after Luke exits the room*

It's like a teen romance plot. Vader is a wuss in Jedi. He's constantly walked over by Luke. Not to mention, after Jedi, everyone expects Luke to go on to be the next Yoda/Jesus.

No, fuck that, Luke's writing never earned that, he was a shell of his former character in Jedi. I support bringing back the scared Luke. Bringing back Empire's Luke. Have him leave Return of the Jedi, still afraid of the dark side.

Don't turn him into a comically bad villain, make his actions make sense (maybe this film will have him as a sort of anti-hero?) but definitely, have him hold onto his father.

 

[Branduil]

Speaking of Luke's development, does anyone else find it really dissatisfying how he went from being weak and vulnerable in Empire, to suddenly having sheer Vader-pwning overconfidence in Jedi? And how vadar suddenly became so much less of a frightening figure? The first encounter with Vader, in Jedi, basically goes down like this.

.Luke - "Father, there's still good in you."
Vadar - "No there's not, there's no hope for me."

*Vader, for all intents on purposes, begins to sweat on-screen after Luke exits the room*

It's like a teen romance plot. Vader is a wuss in Jedi. He's constantly walked over by Luke. Not to mention, after Jedi, everyone expects Luke to go on to be the next Yoda/Jesus.

No, fuck that, Luke's writing never earned that, he was a shell of his former character in Jedi. I support bringing back the scared Luke. Bringing back Empire's Luke. Have him leave Return of the Jedi, still afraid of the dark side.

Don't turn him into a comically bad villain, make his actions make sense, but definitely, have him hold onto his father.

A lot of the problems in Jedi result from trying to shoehorn four movies worth of plot outline into one.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

A lot of the problems in Jedi result from trying to shoehorn four movies worth of plot outline into one.

That didn't really happen though. There wasn't much story at all - it's why Jedi is essentially recycled ideas from Star Wars.

 

[pupcoffee]

A lot of the problems in Jedi result from trying to shoehorn four movies worth of plot outline into one.

Yeah, I really wish the OT had been longer than 3 movies. The "Act 2" of the series doesn't even begin until the second movie (when Luke goes into the cave IMO)

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

IMO it would make less sense if Luke found the light side at 25 (I think he's that around ROTJ?) and lived happily ever after. It makes sense given who his Dad is that he'd struggle with the Dark Side for the rest of his life.

 

[watershed]

Speaking of Luke's development, does anyone else find it really dissatisfying how he went from being weak and vulnerable in Empire, to suddenly having sheer Vader-pwning overconfidence in Jedi? And how vadar suddenly became so much less of a frightening figure? The first encounter with Vader, in Jedi, basically goes down like this.

.Luke - "Father, there's still good in you."
Vadar - "No there's not, there's no hope for me."

*Vader, for all intents on purposes, begins to sweat on-screen after Luke exits the room*

It's like a teen romance plot. Vader is a wuss in Jedi. He's constantly walked over by Luke. Not to mention, after Jedi, everyone expects Luke to go on to be the next Yoda/Jesus.

No, fuck that, Luke's writing never earned that, he was a shell of his former character in Jedi. I support bringing back the scared Luke. Bringing back Empire's Luke. Have him leave Return of the Jedi, still afraid of the dark side.

Don't turn him into a comically bad villain, make his actions make sense (maybe this film will have him as a sort of anti-hero?) but definitely, have him hold onto his father.

I thought the movie did a really good job of showing us that whatever happened between Empire and Jedi, Luke is now a Jedi Knight. When he first shows up in Jabba's Palace he is clearly a changed person. I never felt like it was false or unearned. He confronted Vader and even though he lost he didn't lose himself in the process. Then there's the off-screen development that is communicated by his black clothes, green lightsaber, and conversations during Jedi.

Vader has similarly changed after he reveals himself to Luke. Even at the end of Empire, Vader is no longer trying to scare Luke, he's trying to convince him to join the dark side. Once they acknowledge each other as father and son the relationship is changed forever. Luke wants to save his father and Vader begins to realize that there is still someone inside him that can be saved. Also, don't forget how scared Luke is when he's hiding from Vader on the deathstar and beginning to see that he can't turn Vader after all. You can see the fear and doubt on his face during Vader's speech in the dark. Return of the Jedi has a lot of problems but the Luke and Vader stuff is great.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

For what it's worth, Faraci's basically said this is the report he'd heard previously, and didn't want to run because he thought it was too spoilery. And Kyle Newman (celebrity fan/director of Fanboys) appears to be vouching for the rumor as well.

Again, for what that's worth. Faraci's been pretty much 100% on everything Episode VII to this point.

 

[Branduil]

That didn't really happen though. There wasn't much story at all - it's why Jedi is essentially recycled ideas from Star Wars.

Well, that's what we ended up with. Jedi turned a number of dangling plot possibilities into nothing by making Leia his force-capable sister, killing Yoda, deciding a random battle would somehow decide the fate of the empire, etc. It's hard to say if they could have come up with enough material for three more movies, especially with Lucas getting tired of the whole thing, but at the very least it probably would have been better if Jedi wasn't two short movies glued together as one.

 

[TheKaeptain]

I'd laugh if this was all clone fuckery but we don't find out until the second movie. The break downs would be amazing.

 

[pupcoffee]

That didn't really happen though. There wasn't much story at all - it's why Jedi is essentially recycled ideas from Star Wars.

Does Luke say anything along the lines of, "I felt good in Vader" at the end of Empire?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It's hard to say if they could have come up with enough material for three more movies, especially with Lucas getting tired of the whole thing, but at the very least it probably would have been better if Jedi wasn't two short movies glued together as one.

Jedi's half of a movie padded out into a full one.

He didn't really have an idea as to what he wanted to do with Jedi until the story meetings.

 

[TheKaeptain]

Does Luke say anything along the lines of, "I felt good in Vader" at the end of Empire?

That's because it's a reverse of their conversation in Empire. There wouldn't be anything said like that because Luke was still raw during ESB. By the time we see Luke again in Jedi he's very secure in his abilities. Remember there is a link that only him and his father can feel because Luke has gotten really powerful.

 

[Gleethor]

I have the strangest feeling that we're going to see a bearded, aged Temuera Morrison begrudgingly team up with Harrison Ford in episode VIII. Don't ask me why.

 

[MattyG]

I really don't like that twist. Sounds like a real possiblity of it being legit too, which worries me. Come on JJ, don't fuck this up.

 

[shira]

Hell yes - search your feelings you know it to be true. Let's do this.

 

[Blader]

Ladies and gentlemen...Lawrence Kasdan is trying to top his No, I am your father moment with this crazy twist.

MAJOR POTENTIAL SPOILER about Luke Skywalker....read at your own risk:
http://makingstarwars.net/2014/10/huge-rumor-star-wars-episode-viis-father-sized-moment/

lol, what is this:

The one thing I will say, since the start of filming, that beard has not been consistent. It just keeps getting longer.

Well no shit! Beards grow out. It makes more sense to me that Hamill is simply not trimming his beard back down to old Luke levels anytime he makes a public appearance off set than it does that he completely shaves the beard for this cyborg role and then grows out the whole thing over and over again off-camera to throw people off the scent.

 

[pupcoffee]

I thought the movie did a really good job of showing us that whatever happened between Empire and Jedi, Luke is now a Jedi Knight. When he first shows up in Jabba's Palace he is clearly a changed person.

Yeah, the opening of Jedi shows that Luke has "changed," and I agree that the green lightsaber was a great touch that showed he was a Jedi. This change in Luke's character was, arguably, the most important character development in the entire trilogy, because it totally flipped the dynamics of the conflict between him and Vader - the central conflict of the trilog. My problem is that we don't see any of the development.

When Empire ends, we're not sure if Luke, as a character, will be able to take on the Dark Side, He tried and nearly got killed. He failed Yoda's tests.

Between here and Jedi, there should be something to show how Luke discovered the "key" to maturing as he did; if he's going to continue to try and take on Vader at all.

I mean, you can easily accept skipping a movie's worth of character development, like a lot of people did, and swallow all the shallow justifications like the clothing changes and the "script reversals" but as it still stands, the dramatic questions about Luke raised at the end of Empire were never answered. The writing in Empire was more heavily stacked against Luke than people talk about. What happened to Luke's arrogance, his naivety? His vulnerability? Was he ever even meant to become a true Jedi? People don't change so easily. Luke, in Return of the Jedi, doesn't ring true to me at all.

 

[TheKaeptain]

Yeah, the opening of Jedi shows that Luke has "changed," and I agree that the green lightsaber was a great touch that showed he was a Jedi. This change in Luke's character was, arguably, the most important character development in the entire trilogy, because it totally flipped the dynamics of the conflict between him and Vader - the central conflict of the trilog. My problem is that we don't see any of the development.

When Empire ends, we're not sure if Luke, as a character, will be able to take on the Dark Side, He tried and nearly got killed. He failed Yoda's tests.

Between here and Jedi, there should be something to show how Luke discovered the "key" to maturing as he did; if he's going to continue to try and take on Vader at all.

I mean, you can easily accept skipping a movie's worth of character development, like a lot of people did, but as it still stands, the dramatic questions about Luke raised at the end of Empire were never answered. The writing in Empire was more heavily stacked against Luke than people talk about. What happened to Luke's arrogance, his naivety? His vulnerability? Was he ever even meant to become a true Jedi? People don't change so easily. Luke, in Return of the Jedi, doesn't ring true to me at all.

Don't worry they'll probably be releasing a book about everything that happened to Luke in between the movies just like they are releasing the book that tells us about everything that happens in between New Hope and ESB.

 

[pupcoffee]

Don't worry they'll probably be releasing a book about everything that happened to Luke in between the movies just like they are releasing the book that tells us about everything that happens in between New Hope and ESB.

Haha, no doubt.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I thought the movie did a really good job of showing us that whatever happened between Empire and Jedi, Luke is now a Jedi Knight. When he first shows up in Jabba's Palace he is clearly a changed person. I never felt like it was false or unearned. He confronted Vader and even though he lost he didn't lose himself in the process. Then there's the off-screen development that is communicated by his black clothes, green lightsaber, and conversations during Jedi.

Vader has similarly changed after he reveals himself to Luke. Even at the end of Empire, Vader is no longer trying to scare Luke, he's trying to convince him to join the dark side. Once they acknowledge each other as father and son the relationship is changed forever. Luke wants to save his father and Vader begins to realize that there is still someone inside him that can be saved. Also, don't forget how scared Luke is when he's hiding from Vader on the deathstar and beginning to see that he can't turn Vader after all. You can see the fear and doubt on his face during Vader's speech in the dark. Return of the Jedi has a lot of problems but the Luke and Vader stuff is great.

I agree 100%.

I'm not reading the spoilers. I said before what I think the only possible proper outcome for Luke is, and I was "vindicated" when the first tidbits of info started poping up about Luke. But a bad writer can easily screw this up, it could go in all sorts of wrong directions, so I'll see when the movie comes out.

 

[Not]

I'd laugh if this was all clone fuckery but we don't find out until the second movie. The break downs would be amazing.

That would actually kick ass.

Spoiler

A Luke clone

is the main baddie? And we

Spoiler

find the real Luke Skywalker

in the sequel?

 

[TheKaeptain]

I agree 100%.

I'm not reading the spoilers. I said before what I think the only possible proper outcome for Luke is, and I was "vindicated" when the first tidbits of info started poping up about Luke. But a bad writer can easily screw this up, it could go in all sorts of wrong directions, so I'll see when the movie comes out.

That would actually kick ass.

Spoiler

A Luke clone

is the main baddie? And we

Spoiler

find the real Luke Skywalker

in the sequel?

No joke but Ether Snake's idea works really well with clone fuckery.

 

[MattyG]

I'd laugh if this was all clone fuckery but we don't find out until the second movie. The break downs would be amazing.

I hope that it's something like this if the rumor is true. I can't imagine that the writers are dumb enough to write something like that and think there won't be TONS of backlash. The only way I can see this rumor as being legit is if they had some big "GOTCHA" (like clone fuckery) planned for the the beginning of VIII.

 

[watershed]

Yeah, the opening of Jedi shows that Luke has "changed," and I agree that the green lightsaber was a great touch that showed he was a Jedi. This change in Luke's character was, arguably, the most important character development in the entire trilogy, because it totally flipped the dynamics of the conflict between him and Vader - the central conflict of the trilog. My problem is that we don't see any of the development.

When Empire ends, we're not sure if Luke, as a character, will be able to take on the Dark Side, He tried and nearly got killed. He failed Yoda's tests.

Between here and Jedi, there should be something to show how Luke discovered the "key" to maturing as he did; if he's going to continue to try and take on Vader at all.

I mean, you can easily accept skipping a movie's worth of character development, like a lot of people did, and swallow all the shallow justifications like the clothing changes and the "script reversals" but as it still stands, the dramatic questions about Luke raised at the end of Empire were never answered. The writing in Empire was more heavily stacked against Luke than people talk about. What happened to Luke's arrogance, his naivety? His vulnerability? Was he ever even meant to become a true Jedi? People don't change so easily. Luke, in Return of the Jedi, doesn't ring true to me at all.

The other half of the equation is that Vader's relationship to Luke has changed as well. Heading into his first fight with Vader at the end of Empire, Luke fully believed that Vader would try to kill him not try to convert him to the dark side.

When the two meet again on Endor in Jedi Luke says he knows his own father wouldn't kill him. He knows because Vader has as much as said it, that Vader doesn't want to kill him he wants to turn him to the dark side. Luke now being a Jedi Knight would obviously give him confidence that he can resist. But even then the movie shows us that Luke does have doubts and is fearful of the dark side of the force.

While it's true that we don't know how Luke became a Jedi Knight between Empire and Jedi the exchange of power in his relationship with Vader makes sense because Luke now knows that Vader is his father and that Vader isn't trying to kill him. That alone changes the dynamic, removes an element of danger and fear, and gives Luke an opening to Anakin Skywalker that didn't exist when he thought Vader was his father's murderer.

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

I have the strangest feeling that we're going to see a bearded, aged Temuera Morrison begrudgingly team up with Harrison Ford in episode VIII. Don't ask me why.

OMG, I want this!

 

[sphagnum]

The Luke rumor is almost certainly nonsense - I mean the person who wrote it even said it's just speculation. Didn't other sources say that the cyborg thing was concept art that they moved away from later on?

He'll probably be more of a grey Jedi, someone who tries to have a "larger view" of the Force, but it's completely inconsistent with the story of the OT to shit all over Luke's journey and make him evil. It would cause more fan outrage than the PT ever did. Lucas probably wouldn't care about riling people up, but I can't imagine Abrams would want to be known as "the man who really ruined Star Wars".

Hope the stuff about the prequel shout outs are true though.

 

[CD'S BAR]

Damn. I hope that Luke rumor is not true just because now I'm spoiled. At the same time it would be kind of a cool twist and I could see it making sense with the character.

 

[BocoDragon]

I like that Luke rumor! haha

But I don't buy it. It doesn't seem Disney.

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

The Luke rumor is almost certainly nonsense - I mean the person who wrote it even said it's just speculation. Didn't other sources say that the cyborg thing was concept art that they moved away from later on?

He'll probably be more of a grey Jedi, someone who tries to have a "larger view" of the Force, but it's completely inconsistent with the story of the OT to shit all over Luke's journey and make him evil. It would cause more fan outrage than the PT ever did. Lucas probably wouldn't care about riling people up, but I can't imagine Abrams would want to be known as "the man who really ruined Star Wars".

Hope the stuff about the prequel shout outs are true though.

I hope so too.

Concerning the Luke rumor, I'm not a fan of that either.

 

[TheKaeptain]

One reason I don't buy it is because of Disney. Would they really let their new female Jedi become evil? They can't sell toys to little girls like that.

 

[Tookay]

That Luke rumor is horrible.

I'm trying to keep an open mind but almost every time I hear a rumor about Luke it is terrible.

 

[Jarmel]

If this is true,I imagine the 2nd movie being super dark.

 

[Liamario]

I don't believe the Luke rumour at all. Why would he be spending time growing a beard, if it's all going to be covered up. There's a lot of intentional leaks being released, the aim of which is to confuse and distract.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

I don't believe the Luke rumour at all. Why would he be spending time growing a beard, if it's all going to be covered up. There's a lot of intentional leaks being released, the aim of which is to confuse and distract.

Well, it could have been to mislead us, but I dont believe it either.

 

[East Lake]

Luke is going balls deep undercover friends.

 

[liquidtmd]

This Christmas, they should just release a 30 second one-off specially made trailer.

Darkness in a natural desert. Hamill talking. Something along the lines of a new force to be reckoned with ambiguity. Towards the end Luke steps out of the shadows looking down, with the last shot him looking straight to camera uttering the words "Return" with hints of the theme played when he was looking at the Twin Suns setting.

Something really low-key with him would really set my hype train fuelling and really I think intrigue audiences who sat through CGI / lightsabre intensive crammed trailers for the PT

 

[jackal27]

All of these rumors! Haha! I don't really trust any of them.

I wonder what kind of rumors were floating around between Empire and Jedi! Wish I could have been around to see that.

 

[BocoDragon]

I wonder what kind of rumors were floating around between Empire and Jedi! Wish I could have been around to see that.

I've read some on usenet archives before... but it's not nearly as interesting as when the real internet got started.

 

[liquidtmd]

I've read some on usenet archives before... but it's not nearly as interesting as when the real internet got started.

The tears of "OMG SPOILERS" between those who disclosed the Empire twist of those who did not would have broken the Internet.

 

[Dr Duncan Steel]

Just do 120 minutes of Kyle Katarn kicking ass. It's not that hard you guys.

 

[jackal27]

The tears of "OMG SPOILERS" between those who disclosed the Empire twist of those who did not would have broken the Internet.

The theories about "No, there is another..." Must have been amazing.

 

[Nicktendo86]

I love the Luke rumour, really turns things on its head and mixes it up. We all imagined the movie after Jedi would have a wise Jedi master Luke leading a new republic, would be so great if it turns out we don't get that and are actually surprised a little!

I also don't believe that Luke will remain

Spoiler

evil

for the whole trilogy and it will turn out he was undercover or a clone or something. The point is I want the unexpected, bring it on.