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[TheKaeptain]

I am sorry, apparently it was not as obvious as I thought

how many hints have we seen from vader that he has a light side to him before the twist that he killed the emperor?

At the release of the OT Vader wasn't an established character with a whole trilogy dedicated to him fighting and over coming the darkside.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

In 1977 Darth Vader was closer to Gwendoline Christie's character than Adam Driver's.

(if the rumors hold true)

 

[Moff]

At the release of the OT Vader wasn't an established character with a whole trilogy dedicated to him fighting and over coming the darkside.

exactly, he was the ultimate villain with no hint of light side to him. the most iconic villain of all time even. and he became good.

 

[TheKaeptain]

exactly, he was the ultimate villain with no hint of light side to him. the most iconic villain of all time even. and he became good.

and we watched him do it. Just like we would need to see the hero of the OT turn evil.

 

[Moff]

and we watched him do it. Just like we would need to see the hero of the OT turn evil.

I dont agree that we would have to see it as long as the reasons are well explained.

but anyway, thats not what I was getting at. it was argued that luke going bad would be an absurd twist, because that it "would go against everything the character stood for over three movies".

but that is exactly what happened with vader.
although not exactly, there were some hints that luke struggles with the dark side. there were no hints at all that vader did.

 

[TheKaeptain]

I dont agree that we would have to see it as long as the reasons are well explained.

but anyway, thats not what I was getting at. it was argued that luke going bad would be an absurd twist, because that it "would go against everything the character stood for over three movies".

but that is exactly what happened with vader.
although not exactly, there were some hints that luke struggles with the dark side. there were no hints at all that vader did.

Vader can do that because we don't have expectations about his character. All we know by Jedi is that he wants Luke to join him to end the chaos and restore order. When those movies were released we didn't have three movies that gave a conclusion to the main character's arc.

Show not tell.

 

[Moff]

Vader can do that because we don't have expectations about his character. All we know by Jedi is that he wants Luke to join him to end the chaos and restore order. When those movies were released we didn't have three movies that gave a conclusion to the main character's arc.

Show not tell.

not more or less than luke, honestly.
and dont forget, the post I responded to was about the twist at the end of ROTJ, not about the ST. and at the end of ROTJ I just dont see the difference between vader and lukes when it comes to "hints" about their change of mind.

 

[TheKaeptain]

not more or less than luke, honestly.
and dont forget, the post I responded to was about the twist at the end of ROTJ, not about the ST. and at the end of ROTJ I just dont see the difference between vader and lukes when it comes to "hints" about their change of mind.

Ah, I thought it was about the ST.

I don't agree though. Luke knows he has anger in him. If we look at the PT and OT together Anakin thinks what he is doing is right. Luke questions himself and trust the force to guide him. I've always seen the Darkside (especially since the PT) as force users that want to use and control the power instead of letting that power help and guide.

 

[Moff]

I don't agree though. Luke knows he has anger in him.

yes absolutely, thats what I am talking about.
it was argued that luke turning to the dark side at the end of ROTJ would be an absurd twist because it would be against everything the character stood for over three movies. but thats what happened to vader, when it made even less sense with vader, because he never questioned himself. he was the iconic ultimate evil for three movies at the end of ROTJ.

 

[maharg]

Show not tell.

Show not tell doesn't mean "show everything, tell nothing". It means that action should be the source of information about character's motives. You can do that without showing crucial events, and it's quite normal to do so (as well as often a much better way to tell a story, because it allows you to absorb the information slowly as a kind of exploration, rather than through some "Ah-HAH!" moment).

 

[sphagnum]

yes absolutely, thats what I am talking about.
it was argued that luke turning to the dark side at the end of ROTJ would be an absurd twist because it would be against everything the character stood for over three movies. but thats what happened to vader, when it made even less sense with vader, because he never questioned himself. he was the iconic ultimate evil for three movies at the end of ROTJ.

Luke wasn't static in the OT though. He starts as a young, bored teen who wants adventure, becomes a soldier who still carries the impetuous nature of his youth, and eventually learns his lesson about his temper and overcomes his anger problems to defeat the emperor through love. His internal "dark side" has been defeated. He proved the old Jedi Order wrong by claiming victory through his love rather than letting his love cause him to give in to his anger. He faced down space Satan, was tempted to the point of almost following, and emerged triumphant. He faced the problem that his father faced - whether to turn to the dark side to save the ones he loved or whether to trust in the Force - and where Anakin fell, Luke succeeded. It was set up that way on purpose in the PT specifically to show Luke's valor.

None of this would matter if he goes and turns to the dark side anyway later on.

What's a little more ridiculous is that the act of saving Luke and killing the Emperor counted as redeeming and saving Vader after all the evil he did, but I guess in the Star Wars universe that's enough to redeem someone. I feel more like it showed the capability for redemption, and a turning point toward it, but the movie counted it as the full thing.

It's a very Christian concept of redemption, which is a little odd in the Star Wars universe which seems to be mostly influenced by Buddhism, but it fits when you think of Vader as a sort of space Jesus as the prequels turned him into.

 

[Secret Fawful]

It's not quite as drastic a change in Vader as all that. He was already talking about overthrowing the Emperor in ESB with Luke's help, so his loyalty was completely questionable at that point. It was in that scene that he showed that he had some feeling for Luke, although it was impossible to tell how much.

Later, Luke tells Vader he feels good hiding within him, although Vader denies it.

What's a little more ridiculous is that the act of saving Luke and killing the Emperor counted as redeeming and saving Vader after all the evil he did, but I guess in the Star Wars universe that's enough to redeem someone. I feel more like it showed the capability for redemption, and a turning point toward it, but the movie counted it as the full thing.

 

[MattyG]

Wait, that guy Han talks to with the furry coat outside the Millenium Falcon in that scene in epsiode 4 is meant to be Jabba the Hutt??? And they replaced him with a CG Jabba in rereleases? How did I never know this?

 

[sphagnum]

Wait, that guy Han talks to with the furry coat outside the Millenium Falcon in that scene in epsiode 4 is meant to be Jabba the Hutt??? And they replaced him with a CG Jabba in rereleases? How did I never know this?

Did you never see the special editions...?

 

[Moff]

Luke wasn't static in the OT though. He starts as a young, bored teen who wants adventure, becomes a soldier who still carries the impetuous nature of his youth, and eventually learns his lesson about his temper and overcomes his anger problems to defeat the emperor through love. His internal "dark side" has been defeated. He proved the old Jedi Order wrong by claiming victory through his love rather than letting his love cause him to give in to his anger. He faced down space Satan, was tempted to the point of almost following, and emerged triumphant.

absolutely, I love ROTJ because of those last scenes, no need to tell me

but thats not what I am discussing, I was replying to a post that said luke turning evil would be an absurd twist because no one would buy into that, because thats against everything luke did earlier. its about believable characters.
but vader did exactly this, he had no trace of light in him the whole OT, he was the ultimate iconic villain, and still everyone bought when he turnet ad the end of ROTJ.

 

[MattyG]

Did you never see the special editions...?

I don't think so. I haven't watched it in forever, and we used to have an old VHS version that was the one I watched all the time.

I just looked on Wikipedia and it said that the scene was never even in the full release until it was in the special editions, at which point he'd been replaced with the puppet. Could've sword I've seen that scene without the puppet in the full version before.

 

[Cheebo]

Guys....it wasn't only Lawrence Kasdan saying Luke should have gone dark. Know who else did?

Mark Hamill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W7paueNuEc#t=250

He said here he pitched it to Lucas to have him go to the dark-side ala Anakin. So in the past both the actor playing Luke in Episode VII and the screenwriter of Episode VII said Luke should go to the dark side.

 

[CitizenVectron]

Wait, that guy Han talks to with the furry coat outside the Millenium Falcon in that scene in epsiode 4 is meant to be Jabba the Hutt??? And they replaced him with a CG Jabba in rereleases? How did I never know this?

Wasn't that guy only ever shown in relation to how they added the CGI Jabba in? It was never part of the original cut (or any home releases) as far as I know. How could this guy have seen the cut human scene and not know about the CGI jabba thing?

I think he's a phony!

 

[Cheebo]

It just dawned on my in that video JJ Abrams is sitting right across from Mark Hamill when Mark Hamill says he thinks Luke should go to the dark side. Hah.

Wasn't that guy only ever shown in relation to how they added the CGI Jabba in? It was never part of the original cut (or any home releases) as far as I know. How could this guy have seen the cut human scene and not know about the CGI jabba thing?

I think he's a phony!

Yep, the footage was shown in context of CGI Jabba replacing him. It had never been shown outside of behind the scene footage.

 

[Secret Fawful]

I wish a movie Jedi would stay gray area, treading the line between light and dark, like Kreia in KOTOR II.

 

[Moff]

It's not quite as drastic a change in Vader as all that. He was already talking about overthrowing the Emperor in ESB with Luke's help, so his loyalty was completely questionable at that point.

its not about loyalty to the emperor though, its about dark or light side. and he wanted to rule with luke as dark lords. there was no hint that vader still had light side in him, ruling with luke doesnt change that, quite the contrary.

and spezifically, they dont even talk about overthrowing the emperor by the way. he could be talking about ruling with luke after the emperor died of old age or whatever. his actions in ROTJ definitely dont look like he wants to overthrow palpatine. he has several chances to either save luke, let luke kill palpatine or kill palpatine himself, he only turnes at the very end when luke is nearly dead.

 

[Woorloog]

I wish a movie Jedi would stay gray area, treading the line between light and dark, like Kreia in KOTOR II.

IMO Kreia tended to feel a bit too much like "Don't do anything but do something"-neutral, not really "gray".

 

[MattyG]

Wasn't that guy only ever shown in relation to how they added the CGI Jabba in? It was never part of the original cut (or any home releases) as far as I know. How could this guy have seen the cut human scene and not know about the CGI jabba thing?

I think he's a phony!

I just went looking on wikipedia for more info and I read the same thing. I could have sworn I'd seen that scene in a full cut of the movie with just the guy. My memories are playing tricks on me!

 

[Cheebo]

I just went looking on wikipedia for more info and I read the same thing. I could have sworn I'd seen that scene in a full cut of the movie with just the guy. My memories are playing tricks on me!

Yeah, you imagined it. Only ever shown in context of Jabba!

 

[MattyG]

Yeah, you imagined it. Only ever shown in context of Jabba!

What the hell. My mind is slowly deteriorating apparently.

I'm watching the CG Jabba scene on YT right now and boy, is it rough. EDIT: OH GOD. The 1997 version is so much worse than the one I was watching. I wish I had never seen this. I wish I'd only ever had this apparently false and tainted memory of that guy in the fur coat, because this is so terrible. Good god.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Vader was the ultimate iconic villain in SW and ESB only. He was incredibly neutered and inoffensive in ROTJ. As someone said earlier (maybe in another thread), Luke was walking all over him in ROTJ well before the final battle, and when Luke told him "There is still good in you" in the elevator/corridor scene you could practically see Vader sweat like a little girl behind his mask.

 

[Peru]

Vader was the ultimate iconic villain in SW and ESB only. He was incredibly neutered and inoffensive in ROTJ. As someone said earlier (maybe in another thread), Luke was walking all over him in ROTJ well before the final battle, and when Luke told him "There is still good in you" in the elevator/corridor scene you could practically see Vader sweat like a little girl behind his mask.

That was the point.

 

[TheKaeptain]

Guys....it wasn't only Lawrence Kasdan saying Luke should have gone dark. Know who else did?

Mark Hamill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W7paueNuEc#t=250

He said here he pitched it to Lucas to have him go to the dark-side ala Anakin. So in the past both the actor playing Luke in Episode VII and the screenwriter of Episode VII said Luke should go to the dark side.

Why are you bringing up something that didn't happen? I don't see why you're not getting this. It doesn't matter what they wanted. They didn't get it. Let's talk about what happened in the actual story and how this rumor undermines the ending of RotJ.

Stop talking "ifs" in the context of a trilogy that already happened. It didn't go as they wanted and Lucas turned his kid story into pop cultures most important product.

Also, let's not act like Kasdan's best work hasn't came from him working off of someone else's outline. He hasn't written anything worth a fuck on his own since 1983. Even then that movie (The Big Chill) was co-written with someone else.

 

[Cheebo]

Why are you bringing up something that didn't happen? I don't see why you're not getting this. It doesn't matter what they wanted. They didn't get it. Let's talk about what happened in the actual story and how this rumor undermines the ending of RotJ.

Stop talking "ifs" in the context of a trilogy that already happened. It didn't go as they wanted and Lucas turned his kid story into pop cultures most important product.

Also, let's not act like Kasdan's best work hasn't came from him working off of someone else's outline. He hasn't written anything worth a fuck on his own since 1983. Even then that movie (The Big Chill) was co-written with someone else.

I am talking about it because if the recent rumors are correct then Kasdan and Hamill are taking Luke in the direction they always wanted to.

It didn't happen then but it just so happens both Kasdan and Hamill find themselves again doing a new Star Wars movie. Without Lucas this time, the man who told them no last time when they both pitched making Luke go bad.

 

[TheKaeptain]

I am talking about it because if the recent rumors are correct then Kasdan and Hamill are taking Luke in the direction they always wanted to.

It didn't happen then but it just so happens both Kasdan and Hamill find themselves again doing a new Star Wars movie. Without Lucas this time, the man who told them no last time when they both pitched making Luke go bad.

And you think Disney is going to let them do anything that changes how people feel about Luke? They want to sell toys.

I'm more than willing to bet that Kasdan was brought in as an work off an outline guy. All the people they are getting together for the spinoffs are more than likely working the same way. Shit, JJ isn't even returning and some of the rumors have said he isn't interested in coming back because of the lack of control he has as a director (Your beloved Devin has said as much on twitter).

 

[MattyG]

Alright, well after that little what the fuck moment over the Jabba scene, I decided to watch all the other changes in the special editions, and I didn't realize how many there were. The one that was the worst for me was Jabba's Palace. It's just... ugh. That song. Have they released the original theatrical cuts on Bluray yet, or is it still just the altered versions?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It really does seem this whole "Darth Luke" line of discussion is borne from a couple guys taking the rumor that Luke could do something at the end of this movie that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's changed somehow - and blending it with their interpretation fo pre-production artwork that they think might be using Mark Hamill's likeness for the evil cyborg character.

The speculation as to whether Hamill is THE bad guy needs to be tempered by a couple things:

1) Variety/Hollywood Reporter have stated Driver is this trilogy's bad guy. He was hired for that. They specifically put that detail into their report, which tells me someone either in his camp or close to the production verified that detail.

2) There is a photograph being described where Luke (who is not a cyborg) is holding a lightsaber and shouting at Han Solo, who has a gun drawn on him.

There's a lot of gray area between "Luke has changed and here he is, doing something that utterly proves it" and "Luke is the cyborg villain of the sequel trilogy."

Most of this discussion seems to be springing from a couple people's subjective opinion that one piece of the pre-production art featuring the cyborg has Mark Hamill's features.

 

[Secret Fawful]

IMO Kreia tended to feel a bit too much like "Don't do anything but do something"-neutral, not really "gray".

Not really. Every time she pooh-poohed your actions she was trying to teach you a lesson. Doesn't matter whether or not it was what you wanted; her point was to challenge you as a teacher should and make you think about your actions, and she always gave her reasoning unless you outright tried to piss her off. The scene where she illustrates the consequences of small actions made it very clear what she was doing and what purpose she served.

 

[TheKaeptain]

Here's what I think is going to happen.

1. Han dies saving everyone. Luke causes the death.

2. Luke is left wounded in a way that changes him to a purely training role for the rest of the series.

3. Driver is the movie's Inquisitor.

 

[GentlemanCrow]

It really does seem this whole "Darth Luke" line of discussion is borne from a couple guys taking the rumor that Luke could do something at the end of this movie that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's changed somehow - and blending it with their interpretation fo pre-production artwork that they think might be using Mark Hamill's likeness for the evil cyborg character.

The speculation as to whether Hamill is THE bad guy needs to be tempered by a couple things:

1) Variety/Hollywood Reporter have stated Driver is this trilogy's bad guy. He was hired for that. They specifically put that detail into their report, which tells me someone either in his camp or close to the production verified that detail.

2) There is a photograph being described where Luke (who is not a cyborg) is holding a lightsaber and shouting at Han Solo, who has a gun drawn on him.

There's a lot of gray area between "Luke has changed and here he is, doing something that utterly proves it" and "Luke is the cyborg villain of the sequel trilogy."

Most of this discussion seems to be springing from a couple people's subjective opinion that one piece of the pre-production art featuring the cyborg has Mark Hamill's features.

I seen this picture mentioned all over the place. I find it odd it hasn't leaked.

 

[maharg]

I just went looking on wikipedia for more info and I read the same thing. I could have sworn I'd seen that scene in a full cut of the movie with just the guy. My memories are playing tricks on me!

I think a lot of people have this problem because they put a whole "making of" mini-doc on the front of the 1997 SE VHS releases, and this was obviously before supplementary material was common thanks to DVDs. So it was pretty likely that you watched it right next to the movie at least once when you weren't really used to the idea and some of the scenes just got stuck in your head.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I seen this picture mentioned all over the place. I find it odd it hasn't leaked.

Yeah, but it hasn't been debunked yet, either. Not saying it actually exists - I haven't seen it. But then again, I haven't seen the art that this most recent Darth Luke rumor is sourced from, either.

I think a lot of people have this problem because they put a whole "making of" mini-doc on the front of the 1997 SE VHS releases, and this was obviously before supplementary material was common thanks to DVDs. So it was pretty likely that you watched it right next to the movie at least once when you weren't really used to the idea and some of the scenes just got stuck in your head.

Yeah. That sorta thing was happening before the VHS days, too. I remember, growing up, hearing from people who read the storybooks and such, that they saw a cut of the movie that had Biggs in it. Swore up and down it was in there.

 

[CreepingFear]

2) There is a photograph being described where Luke (who is not a cyborg) is holding a lightsaber and shouting at Han Solo, who has a gun drawn on him.

Wow, that's new to me. It's the first time I've heard about that. Hope it's real.

 

[GentlemanCrow]

Saw this on the front of a Star Wars magazine a few days ago:

Nice to see new official art of Luke. It's odd to see him in his pilot garb whilst wielding his second saber.

 

[Mariolee]

That looks beautiful.

 

[Dan]

Saw this on the front of a Star Wars magazine a few days ago:



Nice to see new official art of Luke. It's odd to see him in his pilot garb whilst wielding his second saber.

That's the cover to Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, from a few years ago.

 

[Jack Random]

Saw this on the front of a Star Wars magazine a few days ago:



Nice to see new official art of Luke. It's odd to see him in his pilot garb whilst wielding his second saber.

i believe shit is a rather old book cover, could be mistaken

 

[GentlemanCrow]

Oh well, still nice.

 

[Liamario]

Saw this on the front of a Star Wars magazine a few days ago:



Nice to see new official art of Luke. It's odd to see him in his pilot garb whilst wielding his second saber.

I wonder if this picture can be treated as canon? Some of Luke's shenanigans after ROTJ. Are we going to see stories like this leading up to E7?

 

[TheKaeptain]

I wonder if this picture can be treated as canon? Some of Luke's shenanigans after ROTJ. Are we going to see stories like this leading up to E7?

Well we are getting a book that takes place between Eps 4 and 5. I can see them releasing books for 5&6 and 6&7.

 

[Cheebo]

I wonder if this pic true can be treated as canon? Some of Luke's shenanigans after ROTJ. Are we going to see stories like this leading up to E7?

Lucasfilm has made it very clear that picture is non-canon. It is the cover to a EU book.

 

[Edag Plata]

http://makingstarwars.net/2014/10/john-williams-begins-work-star-wars-episode-vii-2-weeks/

Went to see John Williams conduct the Milwaukee symphony last night and he confirmed he is starting work on EP VII in 2 weeks!

Even if the movie is a stinker, at least we'll always have a 7th John Williams Star Wars score!

 

[dankir]

As long as I have Luke Skywalker in dual wielding light saber battle scene I'll be happy. He's a Jedi master at this point right?

I really hope the fight choreography gets turned up to 11 for these next three.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I really hope the fight choreography gets turned up to 11 for these next three.

I don't think that's going to happen.

 

[Rootbeer]

I want better fights than the OT, but not as flashy as some of the Prequel stuff.

I love the OT dearly but I just don't believe audiences today would go for something like the Vader/Obi-Wan fight in Ep IV. It needs to be a little more elaborate.