Support NeoGAF

[Seigyoku]

Sabine is not a Mary Sue
Jyn Erso was not a Mary Sue
Hera is not a Mary Sue
Ahsoka was not a Mary sue.

Rey... totally was. Though nowhere near as much as say Alice from the Resident Evil movies, Tom Paris from Star Trek Voyager, or if we're looking at other Star Wars stuff, Starkiller from the Force Unleashed games is probably the most blatant example..

No. Just no. I've rarely seen a movie go through as much pain as TFA did to establish pretty much every one of her abilities, which I will note neither ANH or TPM remotely did for Luke/Anakin.

Even if you don't want to count novels, being a scavenger of tech, most of it starships, required her to learn a TON of about them. How they work, how to repair (the better the part works, the greater the portions), and yes, how to fly them because again, the more you know about all these ships, the less time you waste salvaging junk that doesn't get you paid. And heck, the fanciest thing she does with the Falcon is the fly through the Star Destroyer wreck, which again, she knows that damn SD. She's likely been in it hundreds of times.

Languages? Again, scavenger on a world of refugees and castoffs. The more you can understand what people are saying, the better for you. Less likely to get scammed, can pick up info from people who think you don't understand them, might be able to make a trade with an offworlder for something the Blobfish isn't going to give up.

Fighting? They have the scene with the thugs for a reason. You learn how to fight off other people or You. Don't. Eat. And mind you, she spends 90% of the fight with Ren on the defensive barely getting a hit in, so it's not like she magically dominated the fight. And the movie again went to great lengths to show just how powerful Chewie's bowcaster was, so we'd know just how bad a hit Ren took, which knocked his skills down. Not that he's that skilled - he's raw power throwing tantrums for the most part.

The biggest issue is the mind trick, which heck, SHE was shocked worked, and that's also stupid Ren's fault for thinking no one could turn his mind probe back on him. He should know better if his uncle ever taught him anything. SW characters find out they can use the Force and suddenly get power ups. Luke goes from "Hey I'm a pretty good pilot!" to making an impossible shot his first time flying in a vacuum. Anakin goes from "only human not killed in a pod race" to winning one, and taking out the Trade Federation Fleet. Heck even Leia goes from "I don't have that power" to knowing with complete confidence that her brother is alive because SHE CAN FEEL HIM.

Sorry, I've just spent too many years reading stories with ACTUAL Mary Sues to deal with this nonsense. Especially when the male characters don't need so many levels of justification for why they are good at anything.

ANYWAY. Sabine Suite on loop. Awwww yeah.

 

[CrimsonSquall]

My sole request is for Sabine to come back time skipped with luscious long

Spoiler

brunette

hair

 

[Seigyoku]

My sole request is for Sabine to come back time skipped with luscious long

Spoiler

brunette

hair

Not gonna spoil, but pretty sure there's a LEGO minifig with new hair, so yeah, don't go looking at LEGO posts...

 

[crackhead_bob]

Honestly wish this Mary Sue meme would go away as the father of a young daughter: it's the internet equivalent of "you can't do that you're a girl."

Just as a lark, I wish a clever artist could draw up a mock depiction of these geek boys trying to fit in the roles they feel that the Mary Sues of the world are depriving them of. And not necessarily the female roles, either. Would you wager that any of these guys in real life reflect the aesthetic pop culture heroism they no doubt slam alleged Mary Sues and others of lacking?

Edit: Also, I took Mary Sue to mean someone inserted into fan fiction of an established world by a fan author, oftentimes a sub par writer, and imbuing that characters with amazing abilities and traits. Am I right in that assumption? I figured it to be a fairly benign term. When did that term turn into a loaded one? And also, it could be argued that George Lucas inserted himself into the original trilogy. Alot of his personal grievances with his father stemmed from his desire not to go into his father's walnut business, iirc.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Spoiler

Not gonna spoil, but pretty sure there's a LEGO minifig with new hair, so yeah, don't go looking at LEGO posts...

Huh?

 

[caliph95]

Me during the at the end of the fight

 

[Monocle]

No. Just no. I've rarely seen a movie go through as much pain as TFA did to establish pretty much every one of her abilities, which I will note neither ANH or TPM remotely did for Luke/Anakin.

Even if you don't want to count novels, being a scavenger of tech, most of it starships, required her to learn a TON of about them. How they work, how to repair (the better the part works, the greater the portions), and yes, how to fly them because again, the more you know about all these ships, the less time you waste salvaging junk that doesn't get you paid. And heck, the fanciest thing she does with the Falcon is the fly through the Star Destroyer wreck, which again, she knows that damn SD. She's likely been in it hundreds of times.

Languages? Again, scavenger on a world of refugees and castoffs. The more you can understand what people are saying, the better for you. Less likely to get scammed, can pick up info from people who think you don't understand them, might be able to make a trade with an offworlder for something the Blobfish isn't going to give up.

Fighting? They have the scene with the thugs for a reason. You learn how to fight off other people or You. Don't. Eat. And mind you, she spends 90% of the fight with Ren on the defensive barely getting a hit in, so it's not like she magically dominated the fight. And the movie again went to great lengths to show just how powerful Chewie's bowcaster was, so we'd know just how bad a hit Ren took, which knocked his skills down. Not that he's that skilled - he's raw power throwing tantrums for the most part.

The biggest issue is the mind trick, which heck, SHE was shocked worked, and that's also stupid Ren's fault for thinking no one could turn his mind probe back on him. He should know better if his uncle ever taught him anything. SW characters find out they can use the Force and suddenly get power ups. Luke goes from "Hey I'm a pretty good pilot!" to making an impossible shot his first time flying in a vacuum. Anakin goes from "only human not killed in a pod race" to winning one, and taking out the Trade Federation Fleet. Heck even Leia goes from "I don't have that power" to knowing with complete confidence that her brother is alive because SHE CAN FEEL HIM.

Sorry, I've just spent too many years reading stories with ACTUAL Mary Sues to deal with this nonsense. Especially when the male characters don't need so many levels of justification for why they are good at anything.

ANYWAY. Sabine Suite on loop. Awwww yeah.

Nailed it.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

I think it was during my time as part of KryptonSite's Smallville boards that I first heard the term "Mary Sue". Can you guess which character? If you watched Smallville you probably know the answer.

 

[Lifejumper]

Sooo uuhh.. good episode. Preview for next ep looks interesting, wonder if the whole episode will be told in first person.

 

[Twilight Gap]

It would be nice to see a star wars thread that didn't get derailed over Rey.

This episode was okay, but the abysmal cinematography in this show is making it really difficult to watch.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

It would be nice to see a star wars thread that didn't get derailed over Rey.

This episode was okay, but the abysmal cinematography in this show is making it really difficult to watch.

Its not really off topic though considering after the last episode aired a decent amount of people started calling Sabine a Mary Sue.
Which was stupid.

 

[shingi70]

Good Episode, gotta say despite liking the western influences that Star Wars has, Bobba Fett has never done it for me in looks or peesonality, however I really like the Mandalolewrn culture as shown in clone wars and rebels. I might have to look up the episode guides for them. I noticed that Deathwatch has armor similar to fett's with the expectation o Vizislaf , while Satines personal guard looks more like Sparta soldiers, while the rens and Gar Fau all have very samurai inspired outfits to them.

Anyone know the name of the song playing during Sabines fight.

 

[caliph95]

Can we ban the term mary sue in star wars thread all it does it derails plus it is such a buzzword nowadays.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Can we ban the term mary sue in star wars thread all it does it derails plus it is such a buzzword nowadays.

Im with you.

 

[Fireblend]

A bit off topic to the current conversation but I just wanted to say I just started the first season and am like 10 episodes in; this is quite good! I knew I'd enjoy it if I watched it but I didn't expect to like it as much as I am.

 

[Mariolee]

Fantastic episode. That lightsaber battle at the end was one of my favorites just because of how much raw emotion was put in there. You could tell these two just hated each other and it wasn't as elegant of a fight so much as just finding the fastest method of killing the other which is to be expected from two who aren't that much trained in the lightsaber arts.

 

[DoctorFling]

Hmm, now we possibly have two big Mandalore stories currently unexplored: the siege and this revolution? Could Feloni's new project be a Mandalore anthology show? Would explain why they went into the history of the first Mandalorian Jedi a while back...

 

[CS_Dan]

A bit off topic to the current conversation but I just wanted to say I just started the first season and am like 10 episodes in; this is quite good! I knew I'd enjoy it if I watched it but I didn't expect to like it as much as I am.

Did you watch Clone Wars?

 

[Sayers]

I really didn't like the part where Saxon turns on the clan. A much more interesting conflict would have had him ready to take the Jedi and go, forcing Sabine to make a choice and thus forcing her mother to make a choice in response. Having Saxon immediately betray them allows him to make all of the choices for them.

Star Wars Rebels Legacy of Mandalore
So Sabine splits from the group, which I have two minds about. One, if this show straight up has a Mandalorian civil war off-screen, then fuck this show. That's not acceptable in any way to have Sabine's journey be off-screened after setting it up for these two good episodes. Second, I do kind of like how Sabine would decide to leave for the sake of her first family. (Kinda weird the rest of the gang isn't here to see her off tho...) It's a sign of her growth in a series that seems to struggle with character development.

I have to imagine they will show some of it. We already know

Spoiler

Bo-Katan

is going to show up at some point. She is almost certainly the true leader Sabine is looking for.

EDIT: Or maybe that is the overall story arc of season 4.

 

[Twilight Gap]

I really didn't like the part where Saxon turns on the clan. A much more interesting conflict would have had him ready to take the Jedi and go, forcing Sabine to make a choice and thus forcing her mother to make a choice in response. Having Saxon immediately betray them allows him to make all of the choices for them.



I have to imagine they will show some of it. We already know

Spoiler

Bo-Katan

is going to show up at some point. She is almost certainly the true leader Sabine is looking for.

EDIT: Or maybe that is the overall story arc of season 4.

That's the problem with one episode stories. Everything happens too fast. TCW rarely had pacing issues.

 

[Boem]

That's the problem with one episode stories. Everything happens too fast. TCW rarely had pacing issues.

I would argue they had some stories that went on too long. The underwater episodes and the one with the little frog captain of that droid team come to mind.

 

[Ezalc]

The biggest issue is the mind trick, which heck, SHE was shocked worked, and that's also stupid Ren's fault for thinking no one could turn his mind probe back on him. He should know better if his uncle ever taught him anything. SW characters find out they can use the Force and suddenly get power ups. Luke goes from "Hey I'm a pretty good pilot!" to making an impossible shot his first time flying in a vacuum.

Compeltely wrong on this point, and this is exactly why Rey's abilities deserve so much criticism.

People usually tend to focus on her last battle with Kylo, trying to explain it away as Rey being pissed, Kylo being hurt and whatever else and that's fine. It's not what I want to talk about.

What matters is the scene you said and the one immediately before it: Mind control and interrogation. For the mind trick one there was no reason other than to make her look cool and try to put in some fanservice which both made her out to be a "mary sue". In the scene with the mind trick, Rey, a person who does not know she actually has any ability with the force, uses not only a jedi power she's never even seen or heard before successfully, she does it with literally zero training. Reminder that however little time Luke spent with Obi-wan, he actually had a teacher of the force to guide him a little in his house on Tatooine and on the Millenium Falcon, Rey did not.

Second, when she gets interrogated by Kylo. Important things to note here: Kylo is not wounded, he's not distressed in any way whatsoever, and he's a trained user of the force. He uses the force to invade the mind of somebody that has, once again, literally zero training of the force and somehow she's able to not only resist somebody who is many more times more capable and experienced than her, but also completely reverses it on him.

Yeah, no, that's a load of hoseshit.

In regards to luke's "impossible shot", if you want to use Rey's beating up of the goons to display her physical abilities, which is a completely valid point, then you are missing one of Luke's classic lines which get's taken as some sort of a joke. When they say the size of the exhaust port, Luke exclaims how that's the size of the womp rats or whatever those creatures are that he's used to shooting at back home on Tatooine. Sure, we are never shown him actually doing this, but that's a small detail on the otherwise bigger picture here. Luke is a capable marksman, he's not the best, but he's capable and his "impossible shot" only succeeds because: He has practice shooting at targets of roughly the same size and it's the only moment in the entirety of episode IV that he uses the force to help him. It's the climax of the film, it shows that he's starting to learn about this great power that his recently deceased teacher had shown him.

Rey has none of this, nobody shows her anything of the force and how to use it, she goes up against a much more seasoned opponent who is not suffering from any negative condition at the time, and she somehow is able to stand basically at an equal level with him and also use a move she's never even remarked she knows the existence of without any training at all?

Fuck that, she's mary sue as shit.

 

[Boem]

In regards to luke's "impossible shot", if you want to use Rey's beating up of the goons to display her physical abilities, which is a completely valid point, then you are missing one of Luke's classic lines which get's taken as some sort of a joke. When they say the size of the exhaust port, Luke exclaims how that's the size of the womp rats or whatever those creatures are that he's used to shooting at back home on Tatooine. Sure, we are never shown him actually doing this, but that's a small detail on the otherwise bigger picture here. Luke is a capable marksman, he's not the best, but he's capable and his "impossible shot" only succeeds because: He has practice shooting at targets of roughly the same size and it's the only moment in the entirety of episode IV that he uses the force to help him. It's the climax of the film, it shows that he's starting to learn about this great power that his recently deceased teacher had shown him.

It's his first time in outer space. Let alone flying in outer space. Let alone in the middle of a battle over the most closely guarded weapon of the Empire. He only met Obi Wan less than a day before, and he didn't exactly have time to teach him anything before he died (his training starts in Empire Strikes Back).

Rey is no different from Anakin or Luke.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

There's a very, very good thread from back when TFA first released regarding the (fucking asinine) "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument, wherein I believe almost every possible argument for it was introduced and addressed.

I'm pretty sure, w/r/t this episode, that we're being setup for Sabine & the Mandos riding to the rescue in the last episode to defeat Thrawn.

 

[Septimus Prime]

Fantastic episode. That lightsaber battle at the end was one of my favorites just because of how much raw emotion was put in there. You could tell these two just hated each other and it wasn't as elegant of a fight so much as just finding the fastest method of killing the other which is to be expected from two who aren't that much trained in the lightsaber arts.

One thing bothers me a little is the ease with which non-Force users, like Sabine and Finn, use lightsabers, whereas Old Obi-Wan was having trouble with his. I guess the saber's stability relying on its user's control of the Force is no longer a thing now?

 

[firelogic]

It's probably been mentioned a million times already but I just have to add to the pile and say it. When Mandalorians fly using their jet packs, why don't they burn their legs off? Their legs are right in the line of FIRE. Do they not produce heat? Do they have leg armor that completely negates heat?

 

[Ezalc]

It's his first time in outer space. Let alone flying in outer space. Let alone in the middle of a battle over the most closely guarded weapon of the Empire. He only met Ben less than a day before, and he didn't exactly have time to teach him anything before he died (his training starts in Empire Strikes Back).

Rey is no different from Anakin or Luke.

Rey had no teacher at all. Like I said before, irregardless of the little time Luke spent with Obi-Wan, he literally has more than 0. Which is what Rey has. I also wasn't arguing Luke's ability as a pilot, I'm talking about their ability with the force. Luke has spent time with a teacher, however little, and does a feat which relies on his marksmanship which has been noted before, but has uses the help of the force. He doesn't go face to face in a test of the force, it was him making a shot. His miraculous ability to even reach the damn thing is a whole other argument.

Rey has none of this, no training with anyone, no prior knowledge of any type of force usage or ability and is able to stand her own and slightly overcome an opponent much more experienced. This is a perfect example of "mary sue". She shouldn't be able to do any of this, yet she does. Luke does ONLY ONE feat, Rey does MANY.

It's bullshit, plain and simple. People saying otherwise are still in the hype of new star wars because there's no explaining how she'd be able to withstand Kylo. And any garbage, oh he was overconfident reply should be met with: OF COURSE HE WAS, SHE HAS LITERALLY NO FUCKING TRAINING OF ANY KIND.

I didn't argue for Anakin since I don't care to try and defend anything in the prequels.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

When Mandalorians fly using their jet packs, why don't they burn their legs off? Their legs are right in the line of FIRE. Do they not produce heat? Do they have leg armor that completely negates heat?

I love that FIRELOGIC is the guy with this BURNING question.

It's bullshit, plain and simple.

Nah.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Well this thread was cool while it lasted.

Its not really off topic though considering after the last episode aired a decent amount of people started calling Sabine a Mary Sue.
Which was stupid.

A mary sue would be an upgrade from whatever she was before.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

A mary sue would be an upgrade from whatever she was before.

Underused.

Her and Hera both.

One of Rebels' bigger problems has shown itself to be that it has too many main castmembers. Ezra should be folded into Sabine. Chopper should be folded into Zeb.

 

[Ezalc]

Nah.

Nope.

The entire premise of the points I made about her ability, that guy uses is that she has second hand knowledge. Not good enough. How does she have secondhand knowledge of the mind trick? Where is this shown or even mentioned: it isn't.

I do believe that he raises good points, about how the force is instinctive and admits that Kylo dominated the "mind battle", but the point still stands the fact that she was even able to penetrate a little bit of his mind is something that she should not have been able to do. I'll concede and say she could have resisted that last part with the coordinates but she should not have been able to revert it on Kylo.

Aside from that, the points stated by that guy are assumptions. He assumes that Rey has secondhand knowledge of the force, which is never shown anywhere. Sh probably heard stories or anything of the sort but it's all hearsay regardless. There's no way to know how to go about doing it. "Oh but you have to FEEL the force!", that's true but she has no clue how to do THAT either.

So no, it's bullshit. I liked Rey's character, but her abilities far overshadow what she should actually be capable of doing. Like I said before, Luke uses the force ONCE in episode IV, Rey does it multiple times in VII without having too much difficulty. It's bullshit.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Nope.

Hey, know how I know you didn't read shit.

Like, there's a whole thread that follows.

Skip around in it. Spend an afternoon in there. I guarantee it's gonna be more productive than whatever this is.

 

[Ezalc]

Hey, know how I know you didn't read shit.

Like, there's a whole thread that follows.

Skip around in it. Spend an afternoon in there. I guarantee it's gonna be more productive than whatever this is.

Why?

You said that person's argument made a case for it. I read what that poster said about my two points. I'm not going to read unrelated things and people bitching about the final scene because this isn't about that.

But thanks, because your reply looks to be exactly what you blame me of.

But you know, hand wave it away guess that's how these things go.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Why?

Because all your complaints are addressed within it and reading is just as important as speaking. Your assumption that everything else in the thread dedicated to the topic you keep pushing is somehow unrelated to you and your viewpoint doesn't make any sense.

Also Rey's status as a Mary Sue has pretty much jack shit to do with Rebels, speaking of unrelated things.

 

[Boem]

Skip around in it. Spend an afternoon in there. I guarantee it's gonna be more productive than whatever this is.

Why?

You said that person's argument made a case for it. I read what that poster said about my two points. I'm not going to read unrelated things and people bitching about the final scene because this isn't about that.

But thanks, because your reply looks to be exactly what you blame me of.

But you know, hand wave it away guess that's how these things go.

Yeah I'm out. I'm tired of having this argument over and over again. It's weirding me out.

I really don't like how many people are parroting the same 'Mary Sue' thing over and over again (super weird how so many people reached that exact opinion with that exact term) and getting so angry about it. I'll admit this stuff probably annoys me too much, but I can't keep dragging out the same arguments over and over again every time one of those guys pops up. I've said all I've had to say on the matter on the last page and the other 500 times someone started this nonsense. I'm done.

It's like a whole generation of 'fans' suddenly realized how big adventure blockbuster movies play with suspension of disbelief. I wonder how long it'll take before they start taking a closer look at Indiana Jones or James Bond (that last one should make them really angry).

If you're expecting realism, you're watching the wrong movies. And if you criticize Rey for any of this stuff, fine, but you can't start claiming Luke would hold up any better to those same criticisms. That's some hardcore revisionism.

But there I go again. It's a personal flaw I guess. I'm out! Keep being mad at a girl being super good at space magic guys. At this point, this entire 'statement' against Rey is just boring and predictable. We've gone over it more than enough. There are more than enough other things going on in these movies, and some people don't want to discuss, just proclaim. Not interested.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Star Wars was never heavy with its character development in the movies anyway, and one movie is especially not enough to judge the depth of one of them, so we'll have to see how this whole Rey thing pans out with the next films. Ahsoka was nothing but a nickname machine when TCW launched and she developed into a strong character over the course of 5 seasons. Conversly, Rebels has had 3 seasons and still hasn't meaningfully developed their cast.

Why?

You said that person's argument made a case for it. I read what that poster said about my two points. I'm not going to read unrelated things and people bitching about the final scene because this isn't about that.

But thanks, because your reply looks to be exactly what you blame me of.

But you know, hand wave it away guess that's how these things go.

It's easier to just put bobby on ignore

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Seriously though, looking back at the whole run of Rebels, it really does seem like the show coulda run a lot more smoothly if there were some character consolidation going on.

Most of the things that drive both Ezra and Sabine are similar. Similar enough that both characters having a lot of the same emotional hangups/motivations feels redundant. It also slows down their growth as characters, because just as soon as you advance Ezra, you have to call time out, swing the spotlight over to Sabine, and get her to roughly the same place.

But you make Sabine a force sensitive mando runaway with anger and trust issues that Kanan discovers... that plays a lot better.

Same with Chop. Most of his comic-relief aspect is split between him and Zeb, and they're both hitting the same notes most of the time (grumpy asshole who doesn't really give a shit about anyone else). Ditch Chopper, fold his technical prowess and sociopathy into Zeb's character, let Zeb be the mercenary AND the mechanic. Deepens the guy a little bit more. Makes him more useful.

With all that time saved, now you don't need to short-shrift Hera so goddamned much, either.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Just to check I'm not forgetting anything, we haven't seen Mon Mothma this season yet, have we? She was in the trailer.

Spoiler

The Mandalorians are going to come and save the Ghost Crew and maybe a few supporting cast, but I'm fully expecting Thrawn to destroy 99% of the cell. He needs to so he can remain credible as a threat. I just don't know how they're going to get rid of him since we know he can't be in the Empire proper when it falls (Aftermath deals with this)

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It's easier to just put bobby on ignore

Yeah, but I'm everywhere tho

 

[TDLink]

Seriously though, looking back at the whole run of Rebels, it really does seem like the show coulda run a lot more smoothly if there were some character consolidation going on.

Most of the things that drive both Ezra and Sabine are similar. Similar enough that both characters having a lot of the same emotional hangups/motivations feels redundant. It also slows down their growth as characters, because just as soon as you advance Ezra, you have to call time out, swing the spotlight over to Sabine, and get her to roughly the same place.

But you make Sabine a force sensitive mando runaway with anger and trust issues that Kanan discovers... that plays a lot better.

Same with Chop. Most of his comic-relief aspect is split between him and Zeb, and they're both hitting the same notes most of the time (grumpy asshole who doesn't really give a shit about anyone else). Ditch Chopper, fold his technical prowess and sociopathy into Zeb's character, let Zeb be the mercenary AND the mechanic. Deepens the guy a little bit more. Makes him more useful.

With all that time saved, now you don't need to short-shrift Hera so goddamned much, either.

I agree with both of these suggestions, but the core problem of the show is that the 20 minute episode format doesn't really allow stories or characters to properly develop. There's a reason all of the 40 minute/2 part stories are the best ones.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I agree with both of these suggestions, but the core problem of the show is that the 20 minute episode format doesn't really allow stories or characters to properly develop.

But they have done it. Just intermittently. Probably because they're wasting time with too many characters chasing similar arcs down parallel tracks.

Less moving parts, easier to focus on what's there. You'd probably have more character growth in 20 minutes if you weren't having to cut it short by zipping over to some other character who is basically the same archetype as the one you just left, learning the same lesson.

I mean, for as much as I love Rex - he's basically just doing what Kanan's already doing, too. It's no surprise that Kanan's character has deepened and gotten much more fulfilling the last few episodes, when his positives aren't being split between him and the old Clone.

 

[TDLink]

But they have done it. Just intermittently. Probably because they're wasting time with too many characters chasing similar arcs down parallel tracks.

Less moving parts, easier to focus on what's there. You'd probably have more character growth in 20 minutes if you weren't having to cut it short by zipping over to some other character who is basically the same archetype as the one you just left, learning the same lesson.

I mean, for as much as I love Rex - he's basically just doing what Kanan's already doing, too. It's no surprise that Kanan's character has deepened and gotten much more fulfilling the last few episodes, when his positives aren't being split between him and the old Clone.

Don't really agree with that because it's actually sort of rare for all of the characters to be in a given 20 minute episode. I mean Rex is great because he has that past clone wars backstory the others don't, but he very much randomly shows up in some episodes and is gone in others. And with Kanan and Rex specifically they were clearly initially going for a 2 different mentors vying for Ezra's attention plot (Which they dropped). The other characters are usually separated for a throwaway reason (So and so is off on a mission) but it's not like most of the episodes are actually trying to juggle between all 7 primary characters at once. In fact, I am pretty sure every episode that actually focuses on Zeb involves almost all of the other characters going to do something else. Similarly, the Kanan/Ezra focused Jedi episodes rarely feature the others in any significant amount.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Don't really agree with that because it's actually sort of rare for all of the characters to be in a given 20 minute episode.

Yeah, but the idea that the time limit is what's preventing coherent arcs from being realized doesn't really make that much sense considering how often it occurs on television like, all the time.

I don't think its the time limit. It's that they've got 7 characters (sometimes 8 or 9) that they're consistently trying to juggle between when it should be something like 4 (maybe 5) tops. That consolidation and removed redundancy should only strengthen the characters that remain.

But that's all looking backwards with the benefit of hindsight from the comfort of my armchair, which isn't all that fair, either.

 

[shingi70]

Could rebels have a scope issue in terms of story telling, season one is very Fireflyish, while the are more about the start of the rebellion and it feels like in its screentime format it can't give as much balancr between the Jedi plot and the Rebllion plot.

 

[LordOfChaos]

So,
Why wouldn't they just get other Mandalore dude to signal on the radio, rather than Sabine ?

 

[Boem]

To me Zeb shows we should all be happy Chewbacca isn't able to talk. Sometimes being a bit of extra muscle and a cool guy's best friend is enough.

I don't know if there are too many main characters (the main group's storylines are basically Ezra/Kanan's jedi storyline, Sabine trying to find her place between the rebellion and her history, and, to a lesser extent, Hera and Zeb dealing with their history and personal philosophies. Combined with the whole group trying to work as a family. That doesn't seem like too much to take on for one tv show, even if you add in all the minor characters like Maul or Ahsoka.

To me the bigger problem is that the show isn't really sure what it wants to be. It clearly inherited a lot from Clone Wars, but that show had the benefit of the main characters having 3 (or 6, depending on how you're counting) movies that had already done the heavy lifting on who they were. On Rebels, you'll get a couple of episodes a seasons that are designed to deal with the bigger character stuff (any time Maul or Vader showed up, or when they're doing the mythical Jedi stuff, for example), and those are often the episodes that are liked the best by the older fans on places like Gaf. But the majority of the show still consists of frankly pretty derivative stories of standard missions that feel surprisingly similar to each other (or similar episodes from Clone Wars). Which is fine if you're making a show aimed purely at children (which it is of course, and there's nothing wrong with that - even those episodes are very well made children's television, and that's to be commended), but it also puts the show at a snail's pace for those who are interested in the character development. Again, fine, it's a choice, but I don't think the problem is that they have too many characters or that the stories are too short, I think the problem is that the majority of the stories don't amount to much at all. That keeps these characters in a holding pattern for most of the season (and some characters for the entire season).

Edit: Just to be clear, this post also definitely wasn't meant as a dig at older fans enjoying something aimed at children. I love Doctor Who, and the amount of time I've devoted to that show is almost frightening. And I'm also 30. But I'm not ashamed of it, and I definitely didn't intend to shame big fans of this show. Just wanted to make that clear since something like that can be misinterpreted sometimes.

 

[TDLink]

Yeah, but the idea that the time limit is what's preventing coherent arcs from being realized doesn't really make that much sense considering how often it occurs on television like, all the time.

I don't think its the time limit. It's that they've got 7 characters (sometimes 8 or 9) that they're consistently trying to juggle between when it should be something like 4 (maybe 5) tops. That consolidation and removed redundancy should only strengthen the characters that remain.

But that's all looking backwards with the benefit of hindsight from the comfort of my armchair, which isn't all that fair, either.

I definitely agree less characters would help but it's also partially apathy on the part of the writers. I mean they didn't even both to try developing most of the characters until season 2. And Sabine didn't really have real effort put into her until this season. For a show three seasons in, we know very little beyond the basics of half the cast. Instead they prefer to spend the bulk of each season between the premiere and finale episodes on generic "Someone got kidnapped (usually Ezra) and we have to rescue them" episodes. It's night and day when you compare it to something like the entirely Sabine development-focused episode from a few weeks ago, and that's why that episode stood out among the other 20 minute episodes.

And I really do feel the 20 minute time limit is a major factor. Compared to Clone Wars, which told most of its stories in 80 minutes/4 episodes or more, the storytelling has to be a lot more concise, and this team hasn't really proven they can repeatedly do that well, only occasionally having outstanding 20 minute episodes in both this and Clone Wars. Filoni also came from Avatar The Last Airbender, which was very much a serial and not episodic show. Most shows that fit themselves into 20 minute episodes are comedies that have 4 or fewer characters. Other action cartoons that were more episodic, again, focused on many fewer characters (Batman & Robin, for example. Or simply "Samurai Jack") and/or much more simplistic storytelling (most of the classic 80s cartoons). If it wasn't a big deal why is it that those 40 minute episodes are the best ones in the series? Coincidence?

 

[Lifejumper]

Any bets that Kallus bites it next episode?

 

[Gravidee]

So,
Why wouldn't they just get other Mandalore dude to signal on the radio, rather than Sabine ?

Because if it was Fenn Rau there'd be even more reason to destroy the ship and its occupants.

 

[TDLink]

To me the bigger problem is that the show isn't really sure what it wants to be. It clearly inherited a lot from Clone Wars, but that show had the benefit of the main characters having 3 (or 6, depending on how you're counting) movies that had already done the heavy lifting on who they were.

I don't think this is really true. Outside of Obi-Wan, none of the major Clone Wars characters benefit from film knowledge, and its almost better if you don't have the movie knowledge for Anakin at least because his portrayal and development are entirely different. Even Obi-Wan has other facets explored within the show beyond what the movies depicted or hinted at. Major Clone Wars characters like Ahsoka, Rex, Fives, Echo, Asaaj Ventress, Mother Talzin, Savage Oppress, Duchess Satine, Plo Koon have essentially nothing to do with the films. Someone could watch Clone Wars without ever seeing a Star Wars film and completely understand who every character is and enjoy them being developed quite a bit throughout the course of the series. I can't say the same for some of the Rebels cast.