BrLvgThrChmstry
Banned
I guess its a good review if you share the same ideals as him... I don't. Its a decent review, fairly informative.
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Star Wars: The Old Republic [Early Access: December 13th] Thread 2
- Thread starter Emitan
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I guess its a good review if you share the same ideals as him... I don't. Its a decent review, fairly informative.
Gunmonkey36
Member
UI at 1920x1200 for reference:
See I would like to scale my action bar frame down by like 50% as well as my companions. I don't need to see my action bar tbqh. I have everything I need on hotkeys.
I would also like to scale down the quest tracking to 80% of its current size.
I don't know I guess its just personal preference. I mean the current UI is acceptable, but the ability to scale the frames would be rather nice.
DimmuBurgerKing
Member
If the raids are designed well, there shouldn't be any need for mods to make them easier.
This is huge?
That's an un-useable UI beyond level 5 or something. Throw in the extra bar on bottom, 2 side bars, a billion quests to track, an objective tracker in pvp or whatnot...it gets ridiculous. Especially those of us that are used to MMOs, It's all superfluous. I could easily arrange my 4 bars into more useable positions, and cut out a ton of the extra 'art' and have more space. The UI doesn't even have room for its own shit as it stands, when you pvp the objectives in the top right will cover parts of your rightside bar for instance, and chat when it lights up covers up the left one. That huge icon tray on top is pretty bad too.
Has nothing to do with raid design, the ui doesn't even need to support ACTUAL mods, it needs basic modability in terms of scaling and movement, things that have been standard since everquest, hell even UO!
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
The *NEED* doesn't really matter. If people can find a way to make something simpler, they will, regardless of if the actual raid encounters are perfectly balanced and enjoyable without it.
The second bar on the bottom is optional.
While I do use the extra bottom bar and right bar, it's usable for when I got to 27.
The map and minimap does a great job with tracking quests, and you can toggle tracking on all of them. Also, you get to have no limit on quests from what I played.
I understand why people would want customization, but the thing that always killed WoW for me and made me take a break was that my UI was broken and the default UI is shit. TOR has the character and target panels where I like them, so I automatically find it good.
Spiritreaver
Member
Man, coming from FFXI these gazillion overlays and hotkeys for every single ability and control feels so... intimidating, and almost unnecessary. I really have a lot to learn when it comes to post WoW MMOs.
During the beta I for the life of me couldn't figure out a decent hotkey setup, as I played XI with a controller and the only other MMOs I've played had, at the most, 1-9 hotkeys.
How the hell do you do this shit?
During the beta I for the life of me couldn't figure out a decent hotkey setup, as I played XI with a controller and the only other MMOs I've played had, at the most, 1-9 hotkeys.
How the hell do you do this shit?
BattleMonkey
Member
There isn't that many abilities from what I've seen, even at max level your not going to need that many more action bars than 2 for abilities for actual gameplay.
BrLvgThrChmstry
Banned
I'm sort of in the same boat, lol. I'm a clicker though, I have a hard time keeping up with my hotkeys, clicking is so much easier but slower/inefficient :\
No, it isn't. You've got nearly 30 abilities with a lot of classes in the game. Sure, they aren't all useful for all specs, but that's a lot of hotkeys to kill in. If the game had macro support like it should I could easily use up 3 full bars.
My hate for the UI already starts with the 2 bottom bars. I don't get why the "main" bar is on top and the second bar on the bottom. Annoyed the hell out of me the whole weekend. Grrrrr. And it only gets worse from there.
I also didn't get the feeling on my Scoundrel that 2 bars are enough for all my combat needs in this game.
I also didn't get the feeling on my Scoundrel that 2 bars are enough for all my combat needs in this game.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Can I scale the toolbars down about 30% and add a 3rd toolbar on it?
BattleMonkey
Member
2 bars is all you need really, as many of the abilities a person is not going to even use in combat or very common at all. Different builds also have even less abilitiy real estate needs on the bar.
best class for clicker = Sniper ^^
behind cover u not need to move
oh man, it's going to be fun pvping against some of you guys ;p
And to provide proof for my point, I apparantly don't screenshot often, I got several levels higher and had MORE hotkeys than this by the end:
That's 32 buttons with 2 redundancies that I see due to me being lazy. So call it 30. I use ALL of those abilities. I got at least 2 more after that (CC ability and AE heal)
It really depends on what level you want to play the game at. Starting out I'd suggest binding your main few abilities to side mouse buttons (Hopefully you have a couple) and keys like E, Q, R, C. I find it much easier to hit those than number keys when using WASD to move.
As you get used to your basic abilities and level up you'll start acquiring situational abilities with longer cooldowns. That's when I start adding in keybinds for R,V,F,Z,X and CTRL/SHIFT versions of all those keys. SWTOR doesn't have an overabundance of abilities so it won't come anywhere close to the 30+ hotkeys I had for Rift...but I'm sure I'll need at least 20.
For solo and casual group content you can probably restrict yourself to 5-10 hotkeys and be perfectly fine. Raiding type content you'll likely need 10-15 depending on how your class works. PVP is where you tend to need an easily accessible hotkey for every single ability in your arsenal if you want to compete at a high level.
They've DEFINITELY streamlined healer abilities in SWTOR in comparison to other hotkey MMO's. Healers usually have the most situational pve abilities but in SWTOR it's been stripped down to six or seven skills for healing period. It should lower the barrier to entry for healing though which is a nice touch.
I disagree, most MMOs healers can get by with like 4-5 hotkeys tops, maybe a little creative macroing for cooldown type buttons (would sure be nice here!). In TOR you're not a useful healer unless you've got all of your heals ON TOP of all of your dps abilities, because you actually will be using them. Not to mention all of the random utility (knockbacks, stuns, etc). My group 3 manned Hammer Station at 15 and Athiss at 18/19 so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that a healer needs a LOT of hotkeys.
A true testament to the fact that while FFXI's control scheme was old school, it was also quite elegant. A well implemented macro system trumps a button clicking one any day. I never had to use the mouse when I played FFXI. Everything was accessible through just the keyboard, even healing an alliance of 18 players.
BattleMonkey
Member
3 redundancies actually. Also minimize your quest log, it doesn't need to be there. Also it's often best to simply minimize your companion UI once you have it set the way you like and is a none issue in group content/pvp. Reduce the size of the chat box. Lot of wasted space that a few clicks will help clear up... and you got on the intro tips on which is also taking up space
Freyjadour
Member
The completely anti-mod folks are crazy. Most of the improvements Blizzard made to the default UI were taken directly from popular mods.
Also, say what you will, but some degree of damage meters are necessary at this point. I guess I don't care if that's through methods like creating log files and uploading them to sites like World of Logs. I've heard enough bitching against them though.
Also I can't live without Bartender in WoW. Makes for a much MUCH cleaner UI.
Also, say what you will, but some degree of damage meters are necessary at this point. I guess I don't care if that's through methods like creating log files and uploading them to sites like World of Logs. I've heard enough bitching against them though.
Also I can't live without Bartender in WoW. Makes for a much MUCH cleaner UI.
Interfectum
Member
I'm torn on the mods issue.
On one hand I hate being dependent on player made mods. Who knows when one won't be supported or if you are forced to download another to stay competitive. Gets so annoying especially if you are only a casual WoW player.
On the other I like the idea of players taking control of the game and creating tools/fixing problems where Blizzard devs fail to address. Being a healer would SUCK in WoW if not for healbot. Being a DPS in 5mans would be boring as shit without a damage meter.
On one hand I hate being dependent on player made mods. Who knows when one won't be supported or if you are forced to download another to stay competitive. Gets so annoying especially if you are only a casual WoW player.
On the other I like the idea of players taking control of the game and creating tools/fixing problems where Blizzard devs fail to address. Being a healer would SUCK in WoW if not for healbot. Being a DPS in 5mans would be boring as shit without a damage meter.
I was just referring to the healing specific abilities of which there are only a few. I agree that a -good- player will be able to DPS while healing if they know what they're doing (I can't wait to be slipping free backstabs in between every heal, I'm REALLY excited for that) but for a beginner that needs to put all their attention on healing it's nice to keep the number of heals to a minimum.
Still believe there's a lot of depth to their healing because of how important resource management will be, I'm really quite excited they've separated themselves from the atrocious mana system.
What class are you planning on using for heals?
lol? The post was to illustrate that I'm not talking out of my ass about hotkeys. You seem to take some personal offense to it however. Sorry, but my quest log DOES need to be there, I use it, when I'm questing. companion is probably theleast offensive UI element since it's already small, and I specifically would use mine when we 3 manned because it was the only one I could see the health of easily using the raid ui (A silly oversight imo but understandable since youw on't be using companions in raids). But go on, keep apologizing for a shitty UI that would be infinitely better with just scalability and movability. As for the intro tips thing, why is that even an option? It took me all weekend to find all of the options in preferences I wanted, badly designed as usual. Game is great, but defending the UI is ridiculous. It's FUNCTIONAL, but it's awful.
BattleMonkey
Member
I've said before I want them to add more functionality and customization to the UI, I'm not apologizing for it but pointing out that a person can fix alot of issues with it. The quest log is insane in that pic, if you really need it, just go in your log and turn off the quests you currently are not doing to cut down on the clutter. That screen shot has quests from all over the place that don't really need to be there.
I played a Commando all weekend, and it's not even 'oh a beginner will be ok'...A beginner healer in this game is FUCKED. Healing is far more mentally stimulating than in most MMOs because it's a game of resource management rather on the short term rather than the long term, if you fall behind and spend too much ammo/energy you're punished absurdly, and when you only have a single heal spell that you can only afford to cast once every 4.5 seconds..you've gotta be on the ball dpsing as well. Even as it stood I only had 3 cast heals and my autoattack heal by level 22, though that obviously helped fill in rotational gaps a lot.
http://www.twitch.tv/theyanger/b/301157185
If you skip to about 7:20 you can see what healing on a commando was like around level 18 when we were undermanning Athiss. Thanks to a killer bug we couldn't finish it that night but it's probably ~20-30 minutes of killing stuff.
BattleMonkey
Member
Yea you can minimize it
Confused101
Member
I'm for mods if only for that fact that I can make my UI exactly how I want it. If the game would just allow me to move stuff around, I'd be fine with that. It looks like the only way this is going to get accomplished, however, is through mods. I don't like having my map in the bottom right. I don't like having my chat in the upper left. I don't like having my companion bar in bottom left. All I want to do is move them. That's it.
I'll check it out when I get home from work. I'm glad the resource management is as strict as I had been hearing, I'm really excited to have to actually consider multiple heals ahead and really have a healing plan for each encounter, especially since I'll be three manning everything (With a jedi shadow that will never tank and a BH that can tank but won't be specced for it just to drive me insane).
Commando/Merc healers have some really nice aoe tools but I'm looking forward to my Operative. So much mobility for a healer and cover healing seems like it can be really powerful in dealing with tricky ranged enemies.
HarryDemeanor
Member
I like UI addons just because I can customize anything to my liking. It's something the game needs along with UI scaling (please please get this in before launch.)
Spiritreaver
Member
I know right? The best I got was making most of the hotkeys left handed, but I still ended up clicking things. I didn't even think about using a mouse with side buttons.
Thanks brah, gonna have to use my FPS mouse for the game now.
I pretty much agree, but again pretty biased from playing FFXI for so long. Having only played with a controller (even on the PC) I was able to be a more than competent player. I even did PVP pretty hardcore and never had issues utilizing the repertoire of the job.
However I think this explains why all my friends who played WoW thought that FFXI's combat looked "slow" when they watched me play. It's just not as much of a twitchy game, look at the timers and cooldowns for abilities in these modern MMOs. I'm used to buffs that last 5-30 minutes, and cooldowns that can go up to half an hour,. Whereas things in SWTOR were usually a few minutes max, and buffs/debuffs only lasting a few seconds.
Not saying I dislike the playstyle, I had a blast, it's just going to take a lot of getting used to.
Well, you're talking about The latest WoW with a ton of spells piled on from each expansion, yeah you would need quite a lot. Even then, I roll with 1-6, shift 1-6, tgvx, shift tgvx. I could really fit that into two bars.
I healed as a pally and druid on Kil'jaeden, Lich King, and Nefarian (when I took a break/quit WoW), and I used 60 buttons for my character. Aside from those ones I listed, the rest of them were just convenience.
Why's that? If the mob goes down, it goes down. Be it with 1k dps or 15k dps. Numbers aren't that important as some of the MMO-players tend to make them.
If we're comparing the basic default UI of the two games (no options or anything), then SWTOR isn't bad. I actually prefer their centralized setup of their player/target and main action bar. But obviously we can't make that comparison without noting that WoW allows customization of their UI, something SWTOR doesn't, and that's not including the additional options you get with mods.
I don't get how anybody would be against mods completely. I understand being against the more invasive mods like BossMods (which would essentially call out the boss fights for you) or Questhelper (which would stick an arrow on your screen, essentially telling you how to play), but a majority of the mods were "quality-of-life" mods that made playing the game much more enjoyable. In fact, a bunch of the features now adopted in WoW's default UI (and subsequently SWTOR's) were introduced by mods. Floating combat text? health/cast bars over friendlies/enemies? The grid-style raid UI? all mod inventions. The most attractive solution is to allow mods, but restrict those that alter the gameplay.
What probably worries me the most about their no-mod stance, is that they stated they have no intentions of putting in a threat-meter in the game. Threat mechanics always seemed like an essential part of the games and to some raid encounters. It brought an additional layer of complexity to end-game for both DPSers and tanks. Not putting one in this game, has me worried about the difficulty of the end-game. I wonder if the encounters are going to be simpler to account for this, or if tanking is going to be trivialized.
p.s. mouseover healing is desperately needed... i can't remember playing with any healer that didn't use some type of healing mod
I don't get how anybody would be against mods completely. I understand being against the more invasive mods like BossMods (which would essentially call out the boss fights for you) or Questhelper (which would stick an arrow on your screen, essentially telling you how to play), but a majority of the mods were "quality-of-life" mods that made playing the game much more enjoyable. In fact, a bunch of the features now adopted in WoW's default UI (and subsequently SWTOR's) were introduced by mods. Floating combat text? health/cast bars over friendlies/enemies? The grid-style raid UI? all mod inventions. The most attractive solution is to allow mods, but restrict those that alter the gameplay.
What probably worries me the most about their no-mod stance, is that they stated they have no intentions of putting in a threat-meter in the game. Threat mechanics always seemed like an essential part of the games and to some raid encounters. It brought an additional layer of complexity to end-game for both DPSers and tanks. Not putting one in this game, has me worried about the difficulty of the end-game. I wonder if the encounters are going to be simpler to account for this, or if tanking is going to be trivialized.
p.s. mouseover healing is desperately needed... i can't remember playing with any healer that didn't use some type of healing mod
krameriffic
Member
This is the unsung power of modding, the fact that the developer can take cues from modders who are more intelligent than they were and add those things to the game for everybody. Mods in any game, not just UI mods, bring so much to the table in terms of innovation. It opens up the creative think tank to thousands of other minds.
But in a raid, the numbers are important. When taking on challenging content, you have to eek out every ounce of performance from your players, and there is no empirical way to analyze that without some kind of a parsing system. Recount was my favorite mod for doing random LFG Cataclysm heroics because it was always fun to see that every player was basically dead weight incompetent retards incapable of doing even half the damage that they should have been able to do. And early on before the nerfing began, this was absolutely detrimental to the ability of the party to complete instances.
You never actually needed a mod to do mouseover healing in wow thanks to mouseover macros. Unfortunately you've also made me really sad because if there are no macros in SWTOR I will be doing far too much clicking.
Mammoth Jones
Member
How do you gauge your own performance? Just stand there, watch and if the boss goes down "I did good!"?
So if I just get in a group, press 1, and the boss dies I shouldn't concern myself with my performance? What happens when the mob DOESN'T go down?
I never used recount in WoW to bash other players. I didn't say "Hey man..you're doing crap DPS gtfo nub!" But I definitely ran them every instance I did so I could gauge my own personal performance. Especially after updates/changes.
Numbers are important to many, but not all. Why deny the entire userbase the functionality for no reason? I use meters to notice the tangible difference in specs/armor/weapon changes. It makes a huge difference. Especially when I was doing crap dps and had to ask myself: What can I do in order to improve? I've also been in raids where someone is basically spamming auto-attack and not putting in anything other than the bare minimum effort. When you're in a serious guild that's dedicated to progression - Shit like that needs to be known. Not just "We keep wiping...we don't have a clue why because there's no meters to help us break things down".
LowParry
Member
You mean you'll actually have to pay attention? /I kiiiiiiid!
Giolon
Member
There are no macros in SWTOR at launch. Devs said they will come later.
I realise you're joking but don't bitch at the healer when he can't heal you because he's fighting the UI.
I know you're joking but a mouseover macro doesn't do any of the work for you it just eliminates a keystroke/mouse click from your actions. I still have to select the right priority target for the debuff removal/heal/shield etc. I DESPISED any mods which would autoselect your debuff targets (And pre BC actually cast the spell for you) or auto select your healing target.
On the meters conversation: They have very important uses for a certain type of player (Of which I'm one) but I understand why the more casual players dislike them. Plenty of immature people use them to be insulting and negative instead of trying to be helpful. If you present the information with the right amount of tact everyone appreciates a few pointers, the key is coming off as a friend and not a superior know it all when you're trying to give people advice.
What is this fighting the UI people talk about for TOR?
When someone's low on health, I click on their character panel and press the heal button.
No idea. If someone dies in the .01 seconds it takes to click on someone's nameplate then hit a hotkey then you're not a very good healer.
Harry Dresden
Member
DPS meters are a good tool. But you would be hard pressed to tell me they haven't been the root of some of the worst in-guild drama.
I have always been a tank or a healer so DPS meters never bothered me that much. As long as the boss stayed put and people didn't die I knew I was doing my job.
I don't know how those dedicated DPS people can put up with the constant analyzing. It would drive me nuts.
I have always been a tank or a healer so DPS meters never bothered me that much. As long as the boss stayed put and people didn't die I knew I was doing my job.
I don't know how those dedicated DPS people can put up with the constant analyzing. It would drive me nuts.
Spiritreaver
Member
One thing I would like to see, that just won't happen, is the use of DCUO's style system. Some of those helmets are fucking ugly.
When I hit 30 I got a hold of some really nifty red armor for my bounty hunter, and I would have loved to have kept that look throughout the game.
When I hit 30 I got a hold of some really nifty red armor for my bounty hunter, and I would have loved to have kept that look throughout the game.
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