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[Freyjadour]

Why's that? If the mob goes down, it goes down. Be it with 1k dps or 15k dps. Numbers aren't that important as some of the MMO-players tend to make them.

That's a very random heroic mentality. It doesn't fare very well in a raid environment.

Back before meters in MC and what not, I'd see DPS go AFK on follow during trash for 20-30 minutes. I was generally the only one who even noticed. With 40 people, it was harder to know what everyone was doing, but meters let raid leaders know who is pulling their weight and who isn't.

Without those tools, you'll never be able to see how changes to your combat strategies, gear, spec, etc. affect your personal performance. You'd end up with a game in which your group is just pressing buttons in a Round Robin fashion and I cannot imagine any truly interesting end game PvE content emerging from that atmosphere.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Billychu, the most important question:

Did they bring back the "Match Armor to Chest" option?

My understanding was that it was removed so people could report missing texture bugs and should be back for release.

 

[Giolon]

My understanding was that it was removed so people could report missing texture bugs and should be back for release.

The devs never, ever claimed that anywhere. It was a theory concocted by beta testers. Billy's on the release build already which is why I'm asking him if it's back. Of course I'll find out myself by the end of the week, but I'm impatient!

 

[Zalasta]

However I think this explains why all my friends who played WoW thought that FFXI's combat looked "slow" when they watched me play.

I'd say Red Mage and Bard would disagree Two of the busiest jobs I've ever played, in any MMO.

 

[Miletius]

That's a very random heroic mentality. It doesn't fare very well in a raid environment.

Back before meters in MC and what not, I'd see DPS go AFK on follow during trash for 20-30 minutes. I was generally the only one who even noticed. With 40 people, it was harder to know what everyone was doing, but meters let raid leaders know who is pulling their weight and who isn't.

Without those tools, you'll never be able to see how changes to your combat strategies, gear, spec, etc. affect your personal performance. You'd end up with a game in which your group is just pressing buttons in a Round Robin fashion and I cannot imagine any truly interesting end game PvE content emerging from that atmosphere.

Agree. Some end game content needs to be hard. That means that people need to know what optimization they will need to do in order to maximize their performance. That means that we need some sort of way to figure out what that optimization is -- and dps meters are the obvious choice.

The converse is that end game content is that end game content is too easy for some because it's built for people using non optimal setups, rotations, ect. The people who care about that sort of thing will then get bored, frustrated and quit. You are then left with a community of people who are terrible at the game.

 

[Freyjadour]

DPS meters are a good tool. But you would be hard pressed to tell me they haven't been the root of some of the worst in-guild drama.

I have always been a tank or a healer so DPS meters never bothered me that much. As long as the boss stayed put and people didn't die I knew I was doing my job.

I don't know how those dedicated DPS people can put up with the constant analyzing. It would drive me nuts.

It doesn't feel like that if you actually know your class. My DPS has rarely been an issue, and even the most serious guilds I've been in understand that we're all human and mistakes happen.

In my experience, this isn't the case for a large portion of the current MMO audience. Many people are incapable of end-game without being told exactly what to do 10 times over (be it boss strategies or changes to their gearing or rotations).

In short, it's probably the same way you feel about tanking.

 

[Spiritreaver]

I'd say Red Mage and Bard would disagree Two of the busiest jobs I've ever played, in any MMO.

Oh I'll give you that, I'd SCH to that too. They didn't realize how much I was really doing switching arts. Heck, even PUP had its busy moments when you weren't cycling the same maneuvers.

 

[Randy]

That's a very random heroic mentality. It doesn't fare very well in a raid environment.

Back before meters in MC and what not, I'd see DPS go AFK on follow during trash for 20-30 minutes. I was generally the only one who even noticed. With 40 people, it was harder to know what everyone was doing, but meters let raid leaders know who is pulling their weight and who isn't.

Without those tools, you'll never be able to see how changes to your combat strategies, gear, spec, etc. affect your personal performance. You'd end up with a game in which your group is just pressing buttons in a Round Robin fashion and I cannot imagine any truly interesting end game PvE content emerging from that atmosphere.

Ah, I see the point of you lot. Nonetheless, dps meters remain a two-sided coin. A pretty nifty tool in a hardcore raiding environment (though, correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since there was a raidbattle that needed squeezing out every number of dps?) and a tool that divided groups of randoms and even guilds and brought some unnecessary drama. It's a great addon in the right hands/within the right group, but sometimes too powerful for the complex emo-system that is the human mind.

 

[cametall]

Are players of both sides (Sith & Republic) able to communicate and/or group with each other?

IIRC they could in SWG, different game though.

Also will you be restricted to one side per server (a la WAR) or will it be like the beta where you can have both Sith and Republic toons on the same server?

 

[Freyjadour]

Ah, I see the point of you lot. Nonetheless, dps meters remain a two-sided coin. A pretty nifty tool in a hardcore raiding environment (though, correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since there was a raidbattle that needed squeezing out every number of dps?) and a tool that divided groups of randoms and even guilds and brought some unnecessary drama. It's a great addon in the right hands/within the right group, but sometimes too powerful for the complex emo-system that is the human mind.

Avoid PUGs as much as possible. The people are the issue, not the tools they abuse (for the most part).

Also, don't underestimate the value of logs to tanks and healers. The best ones I know scour the logs of attempts to determine the fine details of why we didn't exceed. Maybe the tank needs to be faster on the cooldowns before a big damage phase or ability. They're worse than the DPS about logs sometimes .

 

[Tworak]

What is this fighting the UI people talk about for TOR?

When someone's low on health, I click on their character panel and press the heal button.

hyperbole on my part, obviously.

click

 

[Prodigal]

Are the dialogue options (1-3) consistently in the same place? Like if I always press 1 for instance, would I always be picking the "good" or "evil" option?

 

[isny]

Are the dialogue options (1-3) consistently in the same place? Like if I always press 1 for instance, would I always be picking the "good" or "evil" option?

No.

 

[Spiritreaver]

Avoid PUGs as much as possible. The people are the issue, not the tools they abuse (for the most part).

Also, don't underestimate the value of logs to tanks and healers. The best ones I know scour the logs of attempts to determine the fine details of why we didn't exceed. Maybe the tank needs to be faster on the cooldowns before a big damage phase or ability. They're worse than the DPS about logs sometimes .

Is this really what I'm going to expect from TOR's end game? All this mod and UI talk, while I agree with the need for mods, is turning me off from wanting to play with most of you guys.

 

[TheYanger]

Are the dialogue options (1-3) consistently in the same place? Like if I always press 1 for instance, would I always be picking the "good" or "evil" option?

Negative.


On meters: I don't think in game meters are necessary, but at least parsing/logging are for sure. The game cant be balanced around players who can't play, our it will lack any redeeming qualities at the endgame level. I can always optimize my own dps without via spreadsheets our even frapsing (lol), but for a raids to succeed we ned some wayto analyze everyone else as well. Misuse in dungeons is just a sad side effect.

 

[erragal]

Ah, I see the point of you lot. Nonetheless, dps meters remain a two-sided coin. A pretty nifty tool in a hardcore raiding environment (though, correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since there was a raidbattle that needed squeezing out every number of dps?) and a tool that divided groups of randoms and even guilds and brought some unnecessary drama. It's a great addon in the right hands/within the right group, but sometimes too powerful for the complex emo-system that is the human mind.

I haven't played Cataclysm but WOTLK had DPS checks all over the place. They often weren't the entire fight but instead specific phases of several fights. More importantly if you play in a mid level guild with a mix of great and average players the best players tend to be even more hardcore because they want to make up for the less focused players that still happen to be their friends.

As Freyjadour mentioned healers use meters and logs as well. When you're formulating a healing strategy it's important to see why someone died, whether it was avoidable, what your spacing is between hard hits in given situations (How much leeway you have). There's a lot of strategy that goes into healing especially if you're ever trying to underman content. And tanks/healers can be more meticulous because we HATE making mistakes; I'm always the first one to fess up and be pissed if I make a mistake...because one mistake as a healer can be a wipe whereas one mistake as a dps might mean you lose 2% DPS.

 

[krameriffic]

Is this really what I'm going to expect from TOR's end game? All this mod and UI talk, while I agree with the need for mods, is turning me off from wanting to play with most of you guys.

It's an MMO, what else would you expect the endgame to consist of besides power gaming?

 

[TheYanger]

Is this really what I'm going to expect from TOR's end game? All this mod and UI talk, while I agree with the need for mods, is turning me off from wanting to play with most of you guys.

Well, if you want"endgame"to be challenging and meaningful...yeah, I mean do you WANT to be the guy that sucks ass and hold s your group back just because you'd rather not have any way to know who is any god or not?

 

[FINALBOSS]

Has anyone played this game in Mac bootcamp? If so, how's it run? Anyone gonna buy this game for Mac bootcamp?

 

[Pennybags]

I couldn't believe people in general chat were saying things like "No, this is KOTOR" when I simply suggested that the game could benefit from optional activities that aren't tied to combat.

Pazaak would be neat.

 

[Moaradin]

I couldn't believe people in general chat were saying things like "No, this is KOTOR" when I simply suggested that the game could benefit from optional activities that aren't tied to combat.

Pazaak would be neat.

All those things are probably going to be added post launch.

 

[Freyjadour]

I couldn't believe people in general chat were saying things like "No, this is KOTOR" when I simply suggested that the game could benefit from optional activities that aren't tied to combat.

Pazaak would be neat.

I still want Triple Triad online from SE. I NEED IT IN MY VEINS, NOT THIS SHITTY TETRA MASTER GAME.

I'd like Pazaak too.

 

[Harry Dresden]

They feature cantinas pretty prominently. I'd love to see Pazaak and Holo-chess.

 

[Spiritreaver]

Well, if you want"endgame"to be challenging and meaningful...yeah, I mean do you WANT to be the guy that sucks ass and hold s your group back just because you'd rather not have any way to know who is any god or not?

I suppose so, as much as I want to say I can't see myself ever resorting to reading logs and shit to figure how to better my character, I know in the end I'll end up doing it. I'm just like erragal, whenever something bad happened in XI, I blamed myself every time. Whether it was because of my shitty gear, slow reaction time, questionable actions. No one ever complained about how I played at end game, but I was my own worst critic, and these insecurities seem to be what drive most of the chore of end game.

 

[Moaradin]

Anyone notice the SWTOR page changes? http://www.swtor.com/

Seems to have changed some things. I also noticed when I tried to log in, I was put in some waiting queue page.

 

[JWong]

DPS meters are a good tool. But you would be hard pressed to tell me they haven't been the root of some of the worst in-guild drama.

I have always been a tank or a healer so DPS meters never bothered me that much. As long as the boss stayed put and people didn't die I knew I was doing my job.

I don't know how those dedicated DPS people can put up with the constant analyzing. It would drive me nuts.

Hahah I would be all for not having DPS tools. It's a good way to weed out slackers, but it just causes fights rather than solve problems.

DPS metres are so whacked anyways. Even a lot of WoW fights are inaccurate. Some fights favour melee classes, some fight favour ranged classes. In the end, if you don't beat the timers, you just know that the group DPS isn't good enough.

 

[isny]

Just remembered another missing feature I'd like...a combat log =/

 

[Moaradin]

Just remembered another missing feature I'd like...a combat log =/

Combat Log was in the beta a couple builds ago I think.

 

[daoster]

Anyone notice the SWTOR page changes? http://www.swtor.com/

Seems to have changed some things. I also noticed when I tried to log in, I was put in some waiting queue page.

HAHA, you're put on a queue...to access the page....is this trolling us???

 

[Moaradin]

HAHA, you're put on a queue...to access the page....is this trolling us???

When I tried to log in it said that there is high traffic. It was just a 30 second or so timer. Not sure if it changes depending on how many people there are.

 

[AndyD]

All those things are probably going to be added post launch.

Yep. People love non combat side stuff, but only once they get the initial combat leveling urge out of the way. All MMOs end up with side stuff, so will this.

 

[HarryDemeanor]

I couldn't believe people in general chat were saying things like "No, this is KOTOR" when I simply suggested that the game could benefit from optional activities that aren't tied to combat.

Pazaak would be neat.

Pazaak developed by PopCap.

Done.

 

[JWong]

Yep. People love non combat side stuff, but only once they get the initial combat leveling urge out of the way. All MMOs end up with side stuff, so will this.

Can't play Peggle while raiding? 8(

 

[Moaradin]

Doesn't PopCap work for EA now? Could see that happening. Didn't they develop a WoW version of their games?

 

[HarryDemeanor]

Doesn't PopCap work for EA now? Could see that happening. Didn't they develop a WoW version of their games?

Yeah they had addon versions of Peggle and Bejeweled.

I really hope they get them to create Pazaak and Holo-chess. It would be pretty damn neat.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Is this really what I'm going to expect from TOR's end game? All this mod and UI talk, while I agree with the need for mods, is turning me off from wanting to play with most of you guys.

Then don't focus on it. LOL.

I *use* to be hardcore into WoW. Then I got older, got engaged, got a mortgage and got a new job.

I don't have time to be hardcore but that desire to be the best is still in me when I game. So if I have a tool available to use, I'm going to use it. If I have meters, I'm going to run them in pugs. Compare my dps/healing. Find ways to step my game up. Despite knowing I'll never have the time or inclination to obtain THE best gear in the game.

 

[JWong]

Then don't focus on it. LOL.

I *use* to be hardcore into WoW. Then I got older, got engaged, got a mortgage and got a new job.

I don't have time to be hardcore but that desire to be the best is still in me when I game. So if I have a tool available to use, I'm going to use it. If I have meters, I'm going to run them in pugs. Compare my dps/healing. Find ways to step my game up. Despite knowing I'll never have the time or inclination to obtain THE best gear in the game.

Yeah, I want to be like this. Maybe do PVP hardcore, but casual raiding. I really hate it when I'm tied to raid certain times on certain days. It really kills my drive now that I'm working a lot more.

 

[Emitan]

Billychu, the most important question:

Did they bring back the "Match Armor to Chest" option?

 

[Moaradin]

What the hell man? That shit better be in for launch.

If it does come back though, they should put it in the character sheet instead of social.

 

[Emitan]

Has anyone played this game in Mac bootcamp? If so, how's it run? Anyone gonna buy this game for Mac bootcamp?

Runs alright on my Macbook. It depends on your specs, I've only encountered one game in my life that had problems running in Bootcamp (Battlefield 2 off the CD or DVD version, Steam version works fine).

 

[Confused101]

Just waited 45 seconds to get my guild's page on the main website.

Edit: Also, they didn't put the armor matching option back in? NOOOOOOOO!

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Yeah, I want to be like this. Maybe do PVP hardcore, but casual raiding. I really hate it when I'm tied to raid certain times on certain days. It really kills my drive now that I'm working a lot more.

Yea, I can't do it anymore. I can't be home 3 nights a week from 8 till 11/12. I can't justify that. I need time to unwind. Time to chill with my girl and just discuss my day and laugh. Sometimes I get in and she's busy and I can just dive right into some gaming. Other times, I'm just not in the mood to game right now and want to read/watch tv/take a nap.

I don't ever want to be "obligated" to raid. If I'm on and in the mood and have the time? Sure! Let's do it!

 

[erragal]

Yea, I can't do it anymore. I can't be home 3 nights a week from 8 till 11/12. I can't justify that. I need time to unwind. Time to chill with my girl and just discuss my day and laugh. Sometimes I get in and she's busy and I can just dive right into some gaming. Other times, I'm just not in the mood to game right now and want to read/watch tv/take a nap.

I don't ever want to be "obligated" to raid. If I'm on and in the mood and have the time? Sure! Let's do it!

Growing up sucks but I know the feeling. It was a lot of fun for awhile being part of a team and working together at downing bosses but the set time/obligation aspect just gets to be a burden after awhile. The real challenge is finding a competent pick up group when you get that urge to do the harder content.

 

[Kandinsky]

Healing on sage was fun, I'll have a hard time deciding between BH and JC on launch day omg.

 

[LowParry]

I'm still miffed about this whole texture thing. Meh. I really need to just play the game and enjoy it cause beta did just that. Had lots of fun with it.

 

[Moaradin]

I was a hardcore raider for most of TBC and all of Wrath. It was extremely satisfying getting server first(especially yogg 0 25man), but man does that take its toll on you. I was raiding for 4 nights a week on progression content starting from 7pm-1am. It got to a point where it was pretty much a job and after I quit WoW at the end of WOLTK, I told myself I wouldn't do that again when I play SWTOR.

Guild drama sucked too.

 

[TheYanger]

I suppose so, as much as I want to say I can't see myself ever resorting to reading logs and shit to figure how to better my character, I know in the end I'll end up doing it. I'm just like erragal, whenever something bad happened in XI, I blamed myself every time. Whether it was because of my shitty gear, slow reaction time, questionable actions. No one ever complained about how I played at end game, but I was my own worst critic, and these insecurities seem to be what drive most of the chore of end game.

How would this lead to insecurities? You could easily look at a log and say "Hey y'know what, I'm NOT the one fucking up!" as opposed to if there ARENT the tools available, leaving it as an ambiguous "this group is wrong, we don't know why"

 

[Lilsnubby]

I'm just going to casually PVE my way through this sucker with no pressure to get the next big piece of gear or worry about raiding. It will be a single player game I play with a select group of friends and the occasional pug. I like that the game is basically designed that way.

 

[TheYanger]

Hahah I would be all for not having DPS tools. It's a good way to weed out slackers, but it just causes fights rather than solve problems.

DPS metres are so whacked anyways. Even a lot of WoW fights are inaccurate. Some fights favour melee classes, some fight favour ranged classes. In the end, if you don't beat the timers, you just know that the group DPS isn't good enough.

That's not a problem with the tools, it's the problem with people in your group not understanding how to use them.It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at a fight that is heavily skewed towards say, Mages, and realize that you need to compare the mages to other mages, not to the rest of your raid, while simultaneously not holding your raid to an unattainable standard. Shit's simple.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

I was a hardcore raider for most of TBC and all of Wrath. It was extremely satisfying getting server first(especially yogg 0 25man), but man does that take its toll on you. I was raiding for 4 nights a week on progression content starting from 7pm-1am. It got to a point where it was pretty much a job and after I quit WoW at the end of WOLTK, I told myself I wouldn't do that again when I play SWTOR.

Guild drama sucked too.

Yea, I wasn't even in a hardcore guild and it felt like another job. I no longer want to spend 3 hours a night on one boss wiping over and over again for something.

Gradual progression, easier bosses on front, harder near the end. Hard mode for hardcore players.