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Star Wars: The Old Republic [Early Access: December 13th] Thread 2

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erragal

Member
So what is the best 1v1 pvp class? The story and shit is nice and all, but the long term appeal for me in this game is world pvp.

14/25/2 Operative (Concealment/Medic/Lethality) is the best for all things. 100% throughput at healing (Minus an aoe heal but if you want to do that I'd suggest a BH healer), free backstabs, great crowd control, access to one of the best DPA attacks in the game without having to shiv to use it, max movement speed and stealth value, etc.

the smuggler version of that is probably just as good but then you have to be a smuggler.

I'm convinced Laceration/Collateral Strike is going to get moved up in the trees within a week of release.
 

erragal

Member
You say that like it's a bad thing, Imp.

It's terrible. The smuggler version of laceration is a punch. Which would you rather do: gut someone with a vibro/electro knife or punch them in the kidneys?

Also operative healing is droids/probes instead of the medkit stuff the sawbones seems to use. It's clear the empire will use its' advanced technology (IE: knives) to crush the Republic menace!!
 

Emitan

Member
I wonder what Twi'lek Gunslingers get instead of cowboy hats. My Twi'lek Sith Inquistor got circlets instead of hoods.
 

Wthermans

Banned
Speaking of races, how do the human-looking blind folk work as far as character creation? Do you have to pick their eye socket cover thing at the start and wear it forever, or is it like a vanity equip slot you can change later on?

Whatever you pick as your eye shroud during character creation is what you're stuck with. I played one as a Jedi Sentinel and got my first hooded robe at ~15. They did a pretty good job with clipping, but the left side of my eye shroud kept clipping through the hood of my robe which was rather distracting.
 
Think I've made semi-final decisions on what I'll be playing.

Cyborg Bounty Hunter Powertech.
Miraluka Jedi Shadow.
Maybe a Twi'lek Smuggler.

In that order I think.
 

Giolon

Member
Does anyone have a good listing of all the class breakdowns and where they fit into the standard Trinity?

Taken from my post on the first page:
Everybody is DPS by default. A Jedi Guardian is not automatically a tank. A Sage is not automatically a healer. You have to spec into your non-DPS tree if you want to be effective at that role. For those not following along up until now, those are as follows:

Jedi Knight Guardian/Sith Warrior Juggernaut: Tank or DPS
Jedi Knight Sentinel/Sith Warrior Marauder: DPS only

Jedi Consular Shadow/Sith Inquisitor Assassin: Tank or DPS
Jedi Consular Sage/Sith Inquisitor Sorceror: Healer or DPS

Smuggler Scoundrel/Imperial Agent Operative: Healer or DPS
Smuggler Gunslinger/Imperial Agent Sniper: DPS only

Trooper Commando/Bounty Hunter Mercenary: Healer or DPS
Trooper Vanguard/Bounty Hunter Powertech: Tank or DPS

All tanks and healers are designed to be equal when properly spec'd for their role (yes, Jedi Shadows Light Armor Tank and do so damn well). Nobody is designed to be a crappy off-healer/off-tank only. Bioware knows that's a shitty path to go down.
 

erragal

Member
Does anyone have a good listing of all the class breakdowns and where they fit into the standard Trinity?

Trooper - Commando and Bounty Hunter - Mercenary are Healer/DPS classes
Trooper - Vanguard and Bounty Hunter - Powertech are Tank/DPS Classes

Smuggler - Scoundrel and Imperial Agent - Operative are DPS/Healer classes with stealth
Smuggler - Gunslinger and Imperial Agent - Sniper are DPS classes(Long range&cover)

Jedi Consular - Sage and Sith Inquisitor - Sorcerer are DPS/Healer classes (Casters)
Jedi Consular - Shadow and Sith Inquisitor - Assassin are DPS/Tank classes with stealth

Jedi Knight - Guardian and Sith Warrior - Juggernaut are DPS/Tank classses
Jedi Knight - Sentinel and Sith Warrior - Marauder are DPS classes


All base classes have a tree for both advanced jobs that is a DPS tree. Some of them are better than others (Bounty Hunters is their best tree imo)
 

Miletius

Member
Taken from my post on the first page:
Everybody is DPS by default. A Jedi Guardian is not automatically a tank. A Sage is not automatically a healer. You have to spec into your non-DPS tree if you want to be effective at that role. For those not following along up until now, those are as follows:

Jedi Knight Guardian/Sith Warrior Juggernaut: Tank or DPS
Jedi Knight Sentinel/Sith Warrior Marauder: DPS only

Jedi Consular Shadow/Sith Inquisitor Assassin: Tank or DPS
Jedi Consular Sage/Sith Inquisitor Sorceror: Healer or DPS

Smuggler Scoundrel/Imperial Agent Operative: Healer or DPS
Smuggler Gunslinger/Imperial Agent Sniper: DPS only

Trooper Commando/Bounty Hunter Mercenary: Healer or DPS
Trooper Vanguard/Bounty Hunter Powertech: Tank or DPS

All tanks and healers are designed to be equal when properly spec'd for their role (yes, Jedi Shadows Light Armor Tank and do so damn well). Nobody is designed to be a crappy off-healer/off-tank only. Bioware knows that's a shitty path to go down.

It's probably worth noting here that the last thing I would do to myself is screw myself into a DPS only class unless you have your heart set on playing with 2 lightsabers (or sniping dudes). Having the flexibility to switch between DPS/Healing/Tanking is something nice about the way most classes work in the game.
 

Wallach

Member
It's probably worth noting here that the last thing I would do to myself is screw myself into a DPS only class unless you have your heart set on playing with 2 lightsabers (or sniping dudes). Having the flexibility to switch between DPS/Healing/Tanking is something nice about the way most classes work in the game.

How simple is it to respec in the game? Is there a spec swap system implemented?
 
Is it possible to "respec" a character? Like if I make my Trooper a Commando can I get bored with that and change to Vanguard?

Or are those choices permanent?
 

LowParry

Member
Is it possible to "respec" a character? Like if I make my Trooper a Commando can I get bored with that and change to Vanguard?

Or are those choices permanent?

No. However the AC you pick, they usually are tree'd out by tank/dps or healer/dps. So if you know you'll want to either tank or dps on that AC, you're in good shape.
 

DodgerSan

Member
Is it possible to "respec" a character? Like if I make my Trooper a Commando can I get bored with that and change to Vanguard?

Or are those choices permanent?

They were allowing that, with an exponential cost increase.

Now they're not. Official site's down, but check the dev tracker when it's back up.
 

Giolon

Member
Is it possible to "respec" a character? Like if I make my Trooper a Commando can I get bored with that and change to Vanguard?

Or are those choices permanent?

Advanced Class choice is permanent. Bioware ended up deciding not to allow it. They said they may revisit that decision in the future. For Example, if you choose Commando on your Trooper, he's a Commando forever.

However you can spec between your talent trees (and roles) within an Advance Class. Example: Your Jedi Shadow is a Stealth DPS monster, however, you can visit a retrainer to change your talent spec for Tanking.
 

Effect

Member
This was my biggest issue with my experience this past weekend but I am really conflicted with how I feel about it. On the one hand it is great to have a fully fleshed out story, I played BH and it kept me moving forward and interested in finding out what happened next. However it just felt like a populated single player game with everyone doing the same thing as you, no incentive to get together as group and go do something other than flashpoints. Now, my only reference as far as MMO's go is SWG which was a vastly different style of game but in that you were encouraged to go out in groups and do quests. They were storyless, boring and grind based quests but quests none the less that encouraged a group and engaged you with the community.

Something I didn't get to try out but what is the deal with playing with friends of different classes? If a friend and I both want to play different classes in the same faction at what point can we meet up and start doing things? Are you limited to just interacting with your class until you go off world?

The comparison between SWG and SW:TOR is the most clear example you can find I feel between the differences of the older (well one of the older since SWG was closer to what Ultima Online was/is and not Everquest) MMORPG design and the new direction the genre is being taken in. What I think gets overlooked about the older design is that it allowed to make your own adventure within the game world. That's the core I think of what people mean when they say sandbox. Even if on a very basic level. You logged in and it was up to you to decide what you were going to do. Do I go exploring or run some missions or do a theme park (I think this was misused in SWG to represent questlines. Real theme parks allow you to pick from various rides as soon as you walk in.) or go harvest and build something or hunt some rebels (npc or player) or try to find a npc battle and try to join it, etc. Now it's you go where the game tells you and that's it. You follow the path laid out for you until you get tired and log out.

From what I understand you are limited to interacting with others of your archtype until you are off that first world. Both Jedi classes are in the same area but are on different paths for example. That's going to be a big problem since you can be on that world for a decent amount of time, at least until you get to the point where you leave that area but you'd have to know where to go.
 
The comparison between SWG and SW:TOR is the most clear example you can find I feel between the differences of the older (well one of the older since SWG was closer to what Ultima Online was/is and not Everquest) MMORPG design and the new direction the genre is being taken in. What I think gets overlooked about the older design is that it allowed to make your own adventure within the game world. That's the core I think of what people mean when they say sandbox. Even if on a very basic level. You logged in and it was up to you to decide what you were going to do. Do I go exploring or run some missions or do a theme park (I think this was misused in SWG to represent questlines. Real theme parks allow you to pick from various rides as soon as you walk in.) or go harvest and build something or hunt some rebels (npc or player) or try to find a npc battle and try to join it, etc. Now it's you go where the game tells you and that's it. You follow the path laid out of you until you get tired and log out.

From what I understand you are limited to interacting others of your archtype until you are off that first world. Both Jedi classes are in the same area but are on different paths for example. That's going to be a big problem since you can be on that world for a decent amount of time, at least until you get to the point where you leave that area but you'd have to know where to go.

Exactly, I don't think you will see that style of MMO ever again unless we get out of this rut of there must be something scripted for people to do.
 

Emitan

Member
The funny thing is, after reading a bunch of people's Operative and Scoundrel impressions I think I want to go back to playing one! Dammit! I'm back at the point I was months ago!
 
Have the Early Game Access coupled with guild deployment options been discussed yet? I'd hate to get early access before my guild is deployed to some random server and start leveling, only to find out I'm not on the same server as my guild...
 

King_Moc

Banned
Does Milan North do the male smuggler *sigh*. Does anyone know who voices the female one?

Edit* Nolan. Damn predictive text.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
14/25/2 Operative (Concealment/Medic/Lethality) is the best for all things. 100% throughput at healing (Minus an aoe heal but if you want to do that I'd suggest a BH healer), free backstabs, great crowd control, access to one of the best DPA attacks in the game without having to shiv to use it, max movement speed and stealth value, etc.

the smuggler version of that is probably just as good but then you have to be a smuggler.

I'm convinced Laceration/Collateral Strike is going to get moved up in the trees within a week of release.

Thanks. I might have to go that route. I was wary of the cover mechanic in a real 1v1 situation being not too viable, so I was leaning BH. But if the class is solid without having to be in cover it might be the way to go. I just think kiting is such a powerful method of 1v1 pvp.
 

erragal

Member
The funny thing is, after reading a bunch of people's Operative and Scoundrel impressions I think I want to go back to playing one! Dammit! I'm back at the point I was months ago!

Don't do it based on power. Those trees have some clearly unbalanced options available that are probably getting adjusted. If it doesn't happen prior to release it will once the forum whine gets in full gear: "OMG Bioware if u don't fix operatives I'm quitting"

Surgical Probe/smuggler equivalent is getting a cooldown or an energy cost and Laceration/Sucker Punch is moving up a tier so you can't have both.

-

@Hari Seldon: Operatives are great kiters if you want to spec that way. You can drop some throughput talents and take a few that attach speed boosts to emergency abilities. You also have the 15% base run speed talent in that spec as well. Even with some nerfs I still feel it's going to be one of the strongest individual pvp classes; it can easily be a wow druid without the hassle of shapeshifting.

Can also spec for good corrosive darts/grenade if you want to do more of a ranged option but you'll lose out on the stealth/runspeed talent.
 

Emitan

Member
Don't do it based on power. Those trees have some clearly unbalanced options available that are probably getting adjusted. If it doesn't happen prior to release it will once the forum whine gets in full gear: "OMG Bioware if u don't fix operatives I'm quitting"

Surgical Probe/smuggler equivalent is getting a cooldown or an energy cost and Laceration/Sucker Punch is moving up a tier so you can't have both.
It's more of a versatility thing. Gunslinger is pure DPS. With the Scoundrel I can do Stealth DPS, or Healing, it's not locked into one role.
 
My thoughts.

The game on the whole felt very "bleh" to me. It's not bad and it kept me entertained far longer than Rift did mostly owing to the interesting class quest line. The mechanics of the game feel like a step backwards from WoW despite how hard it is trying to copy it. The combat still feels unresponsive, the skills feel uninteresting and they don't synergize with each other in interesting ways that create a right way to play the class and a wrong way to play a class (at least with the Sage). You can just mash buttons and get perfectly acceptable damage output. In WoW, the skill design is much more directed. You know exactly what order you should perform your skills in, exactly when you are going to maximize your damage output in meaningful ways by executing correctly. Here, it didn't seem to matter as long I was pressing a button on every GCD.

The talent trees are just boring. I didn't look forward to getting even one skill in the entire Jedi sage tree. Most of them are still things like a 6% increase in damage on a skill or a 10% reduction in force cost. There are a few that attempt to introduce interesting mechanics to the class, but even those didn't really change anything. I only reached level 25, but even looking up the tree I didn't see any core abilities that the class would revolve around later on. In WoW, your character feels like it evolves as you progress in levels and gain new core talents that the class depends on to function. Here, you just sort of put points in things and maybe notice the damage on a tooltip go up by 10 points.

Along with these mechanical issues, the enemies I was fighting never fought interesting. Trash regular mobs rarely do anything special, but here they were never even differentiated from each other. I couldn't tell when enemies were doing things I could interrupt or performing skills that I should try to avoid. This was particularly salient during elite and boss fights. Bosses were just an endless parade of tank and spank encounters, never doing anything interesting or forcing me to think my way through. These were only the early levels obviously, but if I can keep beating on the WoW horse, the old world redesigned dungeons had fucking awesome boss mechanics even as low as level 15-20.

The planets structure feels odd as well. I felt like I spent most of my time in some enclosed corridor on Coruscant and Nar Shaddaa. Obviously both of these planets are designed that way and there are open world planets as well (Tython, Taris and Tatooine were, obviously) but it still watered the experience down for me. At least you get an illusion of free movement in open world planets. The corridor planets were just boring to look at and to play. That said, they are nicely differentiated from each other, with each planet having its own sort of identity and style of sidequests, which is MUCH more than I can say for most MMOs.

The strongest point of the game was the story quests for your class. They gave a nice sense of intrigue and impending sense of gravitas to the things you were doing. It wasn't quite on the level of the storytelling in KotOR 1/2, but that's because it's still constrained by being an MMO. This leads me to my greatest complaint about the game: it's trying to be two things at once that don't jive well together. It's trying to be this old-style Bioware cRPG centered around your character and this big overarching story while also being an MMO with hundreds of other, equally important player characters running around. You get this sense of cognitive dissonance about whether or not your character even matters with hundreds of other most important persons in the galaxy running around.

The choices in the quests are an illusion. You get light and dark side alignment points, but beyond the cosmetic they seem to be completely meaningless. Your choices don't ever actually affect the outcomes of the story. There are no places where making an evil choice branches your story off in a different direction like in a true RPG. You look at something like The Witcher 2 and you realize that the entire second act of the game hinges on the choice between Roche and Iorveth in the first act. It's a completely different game depending on what you do. This is common in a real RPG but it just doesn't fit into an MMO.

The Republic vs. Empire mechanics of the game seemed nonexistent as well. It didn't feel like my character was taking place in a cold war. Never once did I encounter a member of the opposite faction. None of the quests had anything to do with the other side except vague hintings that the main quest was the work of some fallen Jedi turned Sith lord. Sure, there are PvP battleground of some sort, but world PvP is so much more interesting, and it just never came to any kind of fruition.

There are nitpicky complaints I can indulge as well, such as the slow ass movement speed and the fact that about 80% of your time in the early levels is spent laboriously running back and forth between quest objectives through boring areas with nothing interesting happening on the way. They should give you faster movement speed earlier. I'm a fucking Jedi, I should be able to use the force to run really fast all the time. There were all sorts of little bugs and unpolished things in the beta as well, such as the animations and companion interactions with elevators which got me killed numerous times. I know it's a beta, but the game comes out in like 2 weeks for the preorder holders, this stuff isn't going to change significantly in 2 weeks.

Overall, it's just another mediocre MMO with one strong suit in its storytelling. However, even that is held back by nature of it being an MMO. I think they would have been much better off just making KotOR 3 and continuing unambiguously with the story of Revan and the Old Republic rather than this weird, psuedo-MMOcRPG thing they've managed to concoct.
 

erragal

Member
It's more of a versatility thing. Gunslinger is pure DPS. With the Scoundrel I can do Stealth DPS, or Healing, it's not locked into one role.

It's either that or the Mercenary if you want the maximum amount of versatility. Merc will not give you stealth but you get a bit more battlefield mobility. IA's biggest weakness is the lack of gap closers but no one should be able to run faster than you which is nice for defensive kiting as a healer.
 

BeEatNU

WORLDSTAAAAAAR
I think people forget that it took wow along time to get to where it is at now.When vanilla wow was launched it took a good year or so for it to get on that crazy train.

So far I've been pretty entertain with this more than any of the recent MMO's, it definitely has potential though IMO
 

theta11

Member
I think people forget that it took wow along time to get to where it is at now.When vanilla wow was launched it took a good year or so for it to get on that crazy train.

So far I've been pretty entertain with this more than any of the recent MMO's, it definitely has potential though IMO

I agree 100% looks like it has alot of potential so I'm looking foward to launch.
 
The Republic vs. Empire mechanics of the game seemed nonexistent as well. It didn't feel like my character was taking place in a cold war. Never once did I encounter a member of the opposite faction. None of the quests had anything to do with the other side except vague hintings that the main quest was the work of some fallen Jedi turned Sith lord. Sure, there are PvP battleground of some sort, but world PvP is so much more interesting, and it just never came to any kind of fruition.

There are nitpicky complaints I can indulge as well, such as the slow ass movement speed and the fact that about 80% of your time in the early levels is spent laboriously running back and forth between quest objectives through boring areas with nothing interesting happening on the way. They should give you faster movement speed earlier. I'm a fucking Jedi, I should be able to use the force to run really fast all the time. There were all sorts of little bugs and unpolished things in the beta as well, such as the animations and companion interactions with elevators which got me killed numerous times. I know it's a beta, but the game comes out in like 2 weeks for the preorder holders, this stuff isn't going to change significantly in 2 weeks.

Overall, it's just another mediocre MMO with one strong suit in its storytelling. However, even that is held back by nature of it being an MMO. I think they would have been much better off just making KotOR 3 and continuing unambiguously with the story of Revan and the Old Republic rather than this weird, psuedo-MMOcRPG thing they've managed to concoct.

You must have not got very far in the beta as the republic/empire stuff and other faction encounters happens much more later on. You get your movement increase fairly quick in the game also at lvl 15 which doesn't take that long to reach. Flashpoints also have alot of cross faction conflict stuff going on.

Bioware has no say in making KOTOR3, LA has to make that choice and they didn't, but they did come to Bioware to make them a MMO
 

JWong

Banned
The choices in the quests are an illusion. You get light and dark side alignment points, but beyond the cosmetic they seem to be completely meaningless. Your choices don't ever actually affect the outcomes of the story. There are no places where making an evil choice branches your story off in a different direction like in a true RPG. You look at something like The Witcher 2 and you realize that the entire second act of the game hinges on the choice between Roche and Iorveth in the first act. It's a completely different game depending on what you do. This is common in a real RPG but it just doesn't fit into an MMO.

Played 27 levels of the Sith Warrior. I've seen evidence of choices affecting future storylines. I can't be sure because I would have to play the opposite to confirm, but I was presented with some pretty interesting choices in Tatooine.

There was one quest where I could peacefully resolve my conflict with this group called the Sons of Panawa or something. Down the quest line, you continue the story where you have to help them kill off some Borg creatures. If I had chosen to go to war with them, I would have had to kill them to get to where I needed to. Because I chosen peace with them, they allowed me to go through without conflict.

And Sith Warrior is probably the only class to
influence companion alignment.

If you had picked the dark side all the way, the third companion is a jedi padawan that would turn to the dark side if you had made such choices.
 
My thoughts.


The talent trees are just boring. I didn't look forward to getting even one skill in the entire Jedi sage tree. Most of them are still things like a 6% increase in damage on a skill or a 10% reduction in force cost. There are a few that attempt to introduce interesting mechanics to the class, but even those didn't really change anything. I only reached level 25, but even looking up the tree I didn't see any core abilities that the class would revolve around later on. In WoW, your character feels like it evolves as you progress in levels and gain new core talents that the class depends on to function. Here, you just sort of put points in things and maybe notice the damage on a tooltip go up by 10 points.

I've played the mirror Sorceror up to 30 and all the other classes til 20 in previous builds. This class has several talents, starting at level 20 (tier 3), that change your playstyle completely depending on the tree. Not sure what you were speccing or doing, but this class for the last several builds was considered to have the "best and most versatile" talent trees.
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Can't decide between sorcerer or assassin. I normally heal in games, but I don't want to play a caster class. I read that assassin's weren't very good atm, which actually attracts me more to the class. I remember when wow launched, pallies were terrible, yet I loved the class.
 
I like Smuggler a lot, and am leaning towards Gunslinger so that I'm not asked to heal. Don't get me wrong - I played a healer in WoW, but for Smuggler, it just seems.. strange. I'll illustrate the reasons why in the following scenario:

Luke: "Alright! Chewy, you take point while I charge in. Leia, take these thermal grenades and provide ranged support. Han.. I guess you're on medpac duty."

Han: "Sure! I'll just.. uh.. yeah, okay, I guess."

Chewy: "Hrrrooooowwwwrrrr hrr hrr!" (Translation: "lolz")

Yeah. Not sure how I feel about that.
 

Emitan

Member
I like Smuggler a lot, and am leaning towards Gunslinger so that I'm not asked to heal. Don't get me wrong - I played a healer in WoW, but for Smuggler, it just seems.. strange. I'll illustrate the reasons why in the following scenario:

Luke: "Alright! Chewy, you take point while I charge in. Leia, take these thermal grenades and provide ranged support. Han.. I guess you're on medpac duty."

Han: "Sure! I'll just.. uh.. yeah, okay, I guess."

Chewy: "Hrrrooooowwwwrrrr hrr hrr!" (Translation: "lolz")

Yeah. Not sure how I feel about that.

You say, "no thank you, I'm a damage dealer"

...and then they kick you.
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Not sure about that. Assassins seem to be the highest DPS in PVP right now.

Official boards are down for me atm, but I thought I read that they needed/lacked a way to close the distance, to slow someone, etc. I really only care about pvp... I'll just tank for PvE (assuming a respec is easy/cheap to do).
 

JWong

Banned
I like Smuggler a lot, and am leaning towards Gunslinger so that I'm not asked to heal. Don't get me wrong - I played a healer in WoW, but for Smuggler, it just seems.. strange. I'll illustrate the reasons why in the following scenario:

Luke: "Alright! Chewy, you take point while I charge in. Leia, take these thermal grenades and provide ranged support. Han.. I guess you're on medpac duty."

Han: "Sure! I'll just.. uh.. yeah, okay, I guess."

Chewy: "Hrrrooooowwwwrrrr hrr hrr!" (Translation: "lolz")

Yeah. Not sure how I feel about that.

Leia is a Vanity Pet... in her slave outfit. 8D

Yup. Very fun ones too.

Jedi Shadow for me.
 

LowParry

Member
People are thinking the high res texture option was not available/enabled in beta. I guess the crazy juice is wild today.
 

Giolon

Member
Official boards are down for me atm, but I thought I read that they needed/lacked a way to close the distance, to slow someone, etc. I really only care about pvp... I'll just tank for PvE (assuming a respec is easy/cheap to do).

As the lead combat designer himself said a few weeks ago on the subject, they have Force Speed, "one of the best closers in the game". It can also be talented to reduce all movement impairments.

If you talent down a particular tree, they also have Force Pull.
 

bounchfx

Member
I hope the final verison has better textures. They range from decent to absolute shit :/

no way.. the game is already 35 gigs or so. High res textures? bump that number higher.

there's no reason they would go out of their way to downrez everything for the beta.. this is how the game looks. :\
 

Emitan

Member
no way.. the game is already 35 gigs or so. High res textures? bump that number higher.

there's no reason they would go out of their way to downrez everything for the beta.. this is how the game looks. :\

They could be optional.

...probably not.
 
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