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[BishopLamont]

"right" in some sort of moral sense has nothing to do with fair in the game sense, and you seem to be continuously confusing the two. If everyone has exactly the same access to glitches or "cheap" tactics then they are fair by definition because they don't give any advantage to either side. Blizzard doesn't do balance changes to make the game more fair, they do them to make the game more strategically interesting. That however has NOTHING to do with how you should play if you want the best chance of winning.

Right and fair has everything to do with each other, you're confusing cheap with imbalance. Cheap tactics are fair since it just takes advantage of the game, but you can counter it, its intended by the devs. Imbalance is not fair even though its in the game, its not in the devs intentions, glitches fall in the same category. Blizzard strives to get rid of it. To say Blizzard patches the game to make it "strategically interesting" and not balanced is plain idiocy, a balanced game makes it more strategically interesting by default. We're talking about the most balanced RTS here, not bloody dune 2000.

 

[Vaporak]

Right and fair has everything to do with each other, you're confusing cheap with imbalance. Cheap tactics are fair since it just takes advantage of the game, but you can counter it, its intended by the devs. Imbalance is not fair even though its in the game, its not in the devs intentions, glitches fall in the same category. Blizzard strives to get rid of it. To say Blizzard patches the game to make it "strategically interesting" and not balanced is plain idiocy, a balanced game makes it more strategically interesting by default. We're talking about the most balanced RTS here, not bloody dune 2000.

Imbalance has nothing to do with fair, and again you seem to be misunderstand what fair even means. To illustrate I'd argue it's the norm in competitive console/computer gaming to have the game in fact not be balanced at all. Think of any given fighting game you want to, I guarantee that there are characters that the competetive community just don't use in serious play because they're considered all around worse. Thus all the characters are not balanced, but the games are still fair because everyone starts out the games exactly the same and has exactly the same possible decision trees. There is not a single thing one player can do that the other doesn't have access to. That IS the definition of fair, and the same applies to Starcraft regardless of how the races are balanced against each other. Further, if the bold is intended to refer to me then please don't straw man my position as no one in this thread is making that claim.

 

[BishopLamont]

Imbalance has nothing to do with fair, and again you seem to be misunderstand what fair even means. To illustrate I'd argue it's the norm in competitive console/computer gaming to have the game in fact not be balanced at all. Think of any given fighting game you want to, I guarantee that there are characters that the competetive community just don't use in serious play because they're considered all around worse. Thus all the characters are not balanced, but the games are still fair because everyone starts out the games exactly the same and has exactly the same possible decision trees. There is not a single thing one player can do that the other doesn't have access to. That IS the definition of fair, and the same applies to Starcraft regardless of how the races are balanced against each other. Further, if the bold is intended to refer to me then please don't straw man my position as no one in this thread is making that claim.

You're just validating me by spewing all that crap about fighting games, the whole reason some characters don't get used is because they're harder or not fun or just plain not cool to use. You realise the tier system doesn't mean one character is better than the other right?. Its based on how often they are used and how hard they are to use. An imbalanced game makes it unfair, an unfair game makes it imbalanced. It doesn't bloody matter that everyone starts off in the same position, if one character is stronger than the other, it gives that character the advantage as you're playing. What about the bold part? Are you that thick? You said that in the very last post.

 

[Pandaman]

oh man :lol i dont understand how he can rage at that? how was masq's build cheap in any way?

well, when he scouted a late hatch w/ no expand and no lings, he obviously should have expected an air attack. plus he was constantly lockdowning that overlord to keep it from scouting more than 1 racks 1supply.

 

[Vaporak]

You're just validating me by spewing all that crap about fighting games, the whole reason some characters don't get used is because they're harder or not fun or just plain not cool to use. You realise the tier system doesn't mean one character is better than the other right?. Its based on how often they are used and how hard they are to use. An imbalanced game makes it unfair, an unfair game makes it imbalanced. It doesn't bloody matter that everyone starts off in the same position, if one character is stronger than the other, it gives that character the advantage as you're playing. What about the bold part? Are you that thick? You said that in the very last post.

If you think I said that then please go quote it as I can't find it in my post.

Now, for the bold, you are demonstrably wrong. Unfair and Imblanaced don't imply each other. If character A is better than character B it doesn't give a player, nor character A, any advantage while playing IF both players can simply choose to both play character A. Then the relation of character A to character B is of literally no importance to the rest of the game as it unfolds. Again, this situation occurring means the game is not balanced, but it has no bearing on whether or not the game is fair. And it does "bloody matter" if everyone starts out exactly the same and has identicle possible decisions as that, or something isomorphic to it, IS what a game being fair means, as it guarantees that perfect players will have even payoffs; and that if you don't have even pay off's it's because you aren't as good as your opponent.

 

[Won]

Nothing good will ever come from quoting Sirlin. Shame on you, JasoNsider!

 

[MisterNugNug]

I just got this email:

date Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 5:04 PM
subject World of Warcraft - Account Administration
mailed-by hotmail.com

Greetings!

This is an automated notification regarding the recent change(s)
As you may or may not be aware of, this conflicts with the EULA and Terms of Agreement.
If this proves to be true, your account can and will be disabled. It will be ongoing for further investigation by Blizzard Entertainment's employees.
If you wish to not get your account suspended you should immediately verify your account ownership.
If the information is deemed accurate, the investigation will be dropped.
This action is taken because we at Blizzard Entertainment take these sales
quite seriously. We need to confirm you are the original owner of the account.
This is easiest done by confirming your personal information along with concealed information about your account.
we recommend you Login verify Information your account:
https://www.battle.net/account/support/login-support.xml

If you ignore this mail your account can and will be closed permanently. Once we verify your account,
we will reply to your e-mail informing you that we have dropped the investigation.
billing@blizzard.com. Account security is solely the responsibility of the account
holder. Please be advised that in the event of a compromised account, Blizzard
representatives typically must lock the account. In these cases the Account
Administration team will require faxed receipt of ID materials before releasing the account for play.
Regards,
Blizzard Entertainment Inc Account Administration Team
P.O. Box 18979, Irvine, CA 92623
Blizzard Entertainment

 

[BishopLamont]

If you think I said that then please go quote it as I can't find it in my post.

Now, for the bold, you are demonstrably wrong. Unfair and Imblanaced don't imply each other. If character A is better than character B it doesn't give a player, nor character A, any advantage while playing IF both players can simply choose to both play character A. Then the relation of character A to character B is of literally no importance to the rest of the game as it unfolds. Again, this situation occurring means the game is not balanced, but it has no bearing on whether or not the game is fair. And it does "bloody matter" if everyone starts out exactly the same and has identicle possible decisions as that, or something isomorphic to it, IS what a game being fair means, as it guarantees that perfect players will have even payoffs; and that if you don't have even pay off's it's because you aren't as good as your opponent.

Ok how about if both players started off with their CC/Nexus/Hatchery right next to each other so that they're touching and sharing the same mineral patch and you still have 4 workers. Going by your logic it should still be fair right? But of course its not fair because the SCVS can just kill their workers, or protoss can cannon, or zerg can 4 pool. Balance or fairness isn't some static thing, you have to take into account everything.

"right" in some sort of moral sense has nothing to do with fair in the game sense, and you seem to be continuously confusing the two. If everyone has exactly the same access to glitches or "cheap" tactics then they are fair by definition because they don't give any advantage to either side. Blizzard doesn't do balance changes to make the game more fair, they do them to make the game more strategically interesting. That however has NOTHING to do with how you should play if you want the best chance of winning.

I just got this email:

date Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 5:04 PM
subject World of Warcraft - Account Administration
mailed-by hotmail.com

Greetings!

This is an automated notification regarding the recent change(s)
As you may or may not be aware of, this conflicts with the EULA and Terms of Agreement.
If this proves to be true, your account can and will be disabled. It will be ongoing for further investigation by Blizzard Entertainment's employees.
If you wish to not get your account suspended you should immediately verify your account ownership.
If the information is deemed accurate, the investigation will be dropped.
This action is taken because we at Blizzard Entertainment take these sales
quite seriously. We need to confirm you are the original owner of the account.
This is easiest done by confirming your personal information along with concealed information about your account.
we recommend you Login verify Information your account:
https://www.battle.net/account/support/login-support.xml

If you ignore this mail your account can and will be closed permanently. Once we verify your account,
we will reply to your e-mail informing you that we have dropped the investigation.
billing@blizzard.com. Account security is solely the responsibility of the account
holder. Please be advised that in the event of a compromised account, Blizzard
representatives typically must lock the account. In these cases the Account
Administration team will require faxed receipt of ID materials before releasing the account for play.
Regards,
Blizzard Entertainment Inc Account Administration Team
P.O. Box 18979, Irvine, CA 92623
Blizzard Entertainment

Your account probably got hacked, most likely through the use of third party programs.

 

[Zertez]

I just got this email:

date Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 5:04 PM
subject World of Warcraft - Account Administration
mailed-by hotmail.com

Greetings!

This is an automated notification regarding the recent change(s)
As you may or may not be aware of, this conflicts with the EULA and Terms of Agreement.
If this proves to be true, your account can and will be disabled. It will be ongoing for further investigation by Blizzard Entertainment's employees.
If you wish to not get your account suspended you should immediately verify your account ownership.
If the information is deemed accurate, the investigation will be dropped.
This action is taken because we at Blizzard Entertainment take these sales
quite seriously. We need to confirm you are the original owner of the account.
This is easiest done by confirming your personal information along with concealed information about your account.
we recommend you Login verify Information your account:
https://www.battle.net/account/support/login-support.xml

If you ignore this mail your account can and will be closed permanently. Once we verify your account,
we will reply to your e-mail informing you that we have dropped the investigation.
billing@blizzard.com. Account security is solely the responsibility of the account
holder. Please be advised that in the event of a compromised account, Blizzard
representatives typically must lock the account. In these cases the Account
Administration team will require faxed receipt of ID materials before releasing the account for play.
Regards,
Blizzard Entertainment Inc Account Administration Team
P.O. Box 18979, Irvine, CA 92623
Blizzard Entertainment

I dont know much about WoW or WoW accounts now, but that says mailed by hotmail, so I wouldnt send much information back to them. Call them instead.

 

[Telosfortelos]

I just got this email:

date Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 5:04 PM
subject World of Warcraft - Account Administration
mailed-by hotmail.com

Greetings!

This is an automated notification regarding the recent change(s)
As you may or may not be aware of, this conflicts with the EULA and Terms of Agreement.
If this proves to be true, your account can and will be disabled. It will be ongoing for further investigation by Blizzard Entertainment's employees.
If you wish to not get your account suspended you should immediately verify your account ownership.
If the information is deemed accurate, the investigation will be dropped.
This action is taken because we at Blizzard Entertainment take these sales
quite seriously. We need to confirm you are the original owner of the account.
This is easiest done by confirming your personal information along with concealed information about your account.
we recommend you Login verify Information your account:
https://www.battle.net/account/support/login-support.xml

If you ignore this mail your account can and will be closed permanently. Once we verify your account,
we will reply to your e-mail informing you that we have dropped the investigation.
billing@blizzard.com. Account security is solely the responsibility of the account
holder. Please be advised that in the event of a compromised account, Blizzard
representatives typically must lock the account. In these cases the Account
Administration team will require faxed receipt of ID materials before releasing the account for play.
Regards,
Blizzard Entertainment Inc Account Administration Team
P.O. Box 18979, Irvine, CA 92623
Blizzard Entertainment

This is a clear phishing email. I'm willing to bet that link is a masked link to a phishing website. Never follow a link from email like that. If you followed the link try to change your password (and your email account's password if it's the same) immediately.

 

[ZealousD]

well, when he scouted a late hatch w/ no expand and no lings, he obviously should have expected an air attack.

And he did. When he asked "sen build?" he was referring to the 1 hatch muta vs Terran build. Sen popularized it.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Muta_(vs._Terran)

It's also important to note that marine/tank is actually really good against 1 hatch muta.

 

[MisterNugNug]

This is a clear phishing email. I'm willing to bet that link is a masked link to a phishing website. Never follow a link from email like that. If you followed the link try to change your password (and your email account's password if it's the same) immediately.

Oh I didn't click it. I just thought it was clever.

 

[Pandaman]

And he did. When he asked "sen build?" he was referring to the 1 hatch muta vs Terran build. Sen popularized it.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Muta_(vs._Terran)

It's also important to note that marine/tank is actually really good against 1 hatch muta.

i was being sarcastic, tim. >_>

also we probably wasnt referring to that build as a serious option, after all idra was still on hatch and didn't have lings. [if he had them, he would have intercepted the scv with more lings after the scv got around the first 2] where else could the gas have gone other than roaches? >_>

 

[Vaporak]

Ok how about if both players started off with their CC/Nexus/Hatchery right next to each other so that they're touching and sharing the same mineral patch and you still have 4 workers. Going by your logic it should still be fair right? But of course its not fair because the SCVS can just kill their workers, or protoss can cannon, or zerg can 4 pool. Balance or fairness isn't some static thing, you have to take into account everything.

It would be fair because every single tactic you named can be done by any player, and if they don't do them it's because they chose not to and for no other reason. In fact, regardless of what the optimum decision of strategy to do in your hypothetical, EVERY player can do it and have an equal chance of winning, differentiated only by their own abilities at the game. The game being fair is a completely different statement than all the races being balanced, which is a different statement from their being more than one optimal strategy.

And yes I read that part you bolded in my previous post, but it doesn't say that "Blizzard patches the game to make it 'strategically interesting' and not balanced", so if you're going to insist that I said that then please quote it. I said, in that post you are quoting, that they patch it to make it more strategically interesting, not to make it more fair (because it already is fair). Again, being balanced and being fair are two separate things.

On topic: To the Protoss players, what have you had success with against Marine Marauder Ghost? Against basically every other match up I at least have an idea of strategies that can work, but I've never been able to reliably fight Terran infantry.

 

[Mudkips]

Ok how about if both players started off with their CC/Nexus/Hatchery right next to each other so that they're touching and sharing the same mineral patch and you still have 4 workers. Going by your logic it should still be fair right? But of course its not fair because the SCVS can just kill their workers, or protoss can cannon, or zerg can 4 pool. Balance or fairness isn't some static thing, you have to take into account everything.

I don't think you understand what "fair" means.

What you describe is fair because both players can choose whatever race they want.

You can do something and your opponent can do the exact same thing. In the same way, at the same time, with the same result. This is what fair is.

On topic: To the Protoss players, what have you had success with against Marine Marauder Ghost? Against basically every other match up I at least have an idea of strategies that can work, but I've never been able to reliably fight Terran infantry.

Colossi destroy infantry.
Sentries and stalkers should be able to handle shit until you can get them out.
Ghosts won't be out in any meaningful numbers for a long time.

Once you have them, just keep them in the back away from the marauders.

You could also go for high templars for psionic storm, but the ghosts can destroy you if they micro well.

 

[Ashhong]

And he did. When he asked "sen build?" he was referring to the 1 hatch muta vs Terran build. Sen popularized it.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Muta_(vs._Terran)

It's also important to note that marine/tank is actually really good against 1 hatch muta.

Yea, panda was being sarcastic =P saying the fact that masq didnt make antiair and let that overlord in was total cheese. and then idra with the fucking baneling bust + BM, how embarrassing is that?

Anybody want to play? add me, ashhong@gmail.com

 

[JasoNsider]

Vaporak gets it, BishopLamont does not. As simple as that. Bishop, you've got to understand the difference between balancing for making it strategically interesting and fairness in tactics. Once a set of rules has been decided upon, the person who plays to win will use anything in their power to gain victory.

At the end of the day, all rules being fair, the only thing that matters is seeing "victory" on the screen. The only exceptions in tournaments are usually glitches that cause the other player to be unresponsive (ie there are actual game-breaking bugs that cause the other player to be unresponsive and can no longer control the flow of the game). Otherwise, as Vaporak said, to not use the so called "winning strategy" is just a choice by said player and nothing more.

One thing you have to understand is that at some point there is a meta-game layer above the regular game layer. It's discussed at length in many different pro communities, but essentially once you break through the "wall" of the limits in a game you see all sorts of other meta games at play. If you've watched enough Starcraft Korean play you know this to be true. There are so many crazy things going on in those matches that you'd never see in most normal matches. To use those strats and glitches just becomes part of the all-encompassing ruleset.

A tangible example: they found out how to shoot and move with vultures in SC1. They still use it today in real tournament play. The important thing is that all players go into their games knowing this is a possibility of play given the current landscape of "rules" in the game.

 

[ZealousD]

i was being sarcastic, tim. >_>

I think I got my players mixed up when you said "he". :lol

 

[msv]

Wait, people are taking the term 'cheese' seriously? :lol

If something is broken in the game and someone exploits it against you, be angry at the game, not the player.

If something isn't broken, and you lost due to an unexpected/underused tactic, it's your own damn fault. Call it cheese if you want to make yourself better, but don't start whining against the other player. If you think the tactic is somehow unbalanced, it's the game/ruleset you're angry with, not the players.

In short, don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[Vaporak]

Colossi destroy infantry.
Sentries and stalkers should be able to handle shit until you can get them out.
Ghosts won't be out in any meaningful numbers for a long time.

Once you have them, just keep them in the back away from the marauders.

You could also go for high templars for psionic storm, but the ghosts can destroy you if they micro well.

Ya, all stuff I've tried. :/ Maybe I'll just keep experimenting and working on my macro.

 

[Zen]

new patch.

i think theres 18 now

No new patch notes to go along with it, unfortunately.

 

[Orangepeel]

online right now if anyone wants to play some games n junks

 

[sasimirobot]

speaking of zerg...

here is some Idra rage...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyUdeIh9ic8 :lol

I didn't see any cheese here either, it seemed that Idra didn't scout very well and didn't even try to change his counter. He missed a chance to cancel his expand and instead of expanding somewhere across the map (would have been hidden), he chose his natural again which obviously was gonna get pounded by tanks.

He raged because he was playing badly...

 

[Hazaro]

I didn't see any cheese here either, it seemed that Idra didn't scout very well and didn't even try to change his counter. He missed a chance to cancel his expand and instead of expanding somewhere across the map (would have been hidden), he chose his natural again which obviously was gonna get pounded by tanks.

He raged because he was playing badly...

Hidden expos don't work at higher levels until you are on 3 or 4 base.
It's too clear that you are missing units / tech / buildings.

 

[zoukka]

If something is broken in the game and someone exploits it against you, be angry at the game, not the player.

Why not both. The game maybe "broken", but there's a high chance my cheesy opponent is a douchebag. Maybe he's bad at the game or maybe he only cares about the win count, but of course I have the right to form an opinion about this guy. He's unpleasant, worth nothing as an opponent because you learn nothing from six pool and surely you don't want that kind of players as opponents in the future.

So however justifiable his actions might be, he still is a fucktard

 

[fanboi]

Hey zoukka! Lets go roach, one ling and one hydra, that will show em!

*BAAAAAAAM two protos go void rays*

*death*

:lol

 

[zoukka]

Ever seen what ten fully charged void rays do to a ball of hydras.

I didn't see it. There just was a pile of hydra intestines on the ground.

 

[BishopLamont]

It would be fair because every single tactic you named can be done by any player, and if they don't do them it's because they chose not to and for no other reason. In fact, regardless of what the optimum decision of strategy to do in your hypothetical, EVERY player can do it and have an equal chance of winning, differentiated only by their own abilities at the game. The game being fair is a completely different statement than all the races being balanced, which is a different statement from their being more than one optimal strategy.

And yes I read that part you bolded in my previous post, but it doesn't say that "Blizzard patches the game to make it 'strategically interesting' and not balanced", so if you're going to insist that I said that then please quote it. I said, in that post you are quoting, that they patch it to make it more strategically interesting, not to make it more fair (because it already is fair). Again, being balanced and being fair are two separate things.

On topic: To the Protoss players, what have you had success with against Marine Marauder Ghost? Against basically every other match up I at least have an idea of strategies that can work, but I've never been able to reliably fight Terran infantry.

Fairness has everything to do with the races being balanced and is the same thing as using more then one strategy. Without balance people won't use different strategys because they'd have to use the same winning strat, without that balance the game isn't fair. How much more do I have to break it down?

I don't think you understand what "fair" means.

What you describe is fair because both players can choose whatever race they want.

You can do something and your opponent can do the exact same thing. In the same way, at the same time, with the same result. This is what fair is.

But its not, the better race wins, just because I mentioned how to win with all those race doesn't mean they're all winners. Terran would win always since their scvs would just kill their workers, so its not balanced, thus I always lose and that makes it not fair.

Vaporak gets it, BishopLamont does not. As simple as that. Bishop, you've got to understand the difference between balancing for making it strategically interesting and fairness in tactics. Once a set of rules has been decided upon, the person who plays to win will use anything in their power to gain victory.

At the end of the day, all rules being fair, the only thing that matters is seeing "victory" on the screen. The only exceptions in tournaments are usually glitches that cause the other player to be unresponsive (ie there are actual game-breaking bugs that cause the other player to be unresponsive and can no longer control the flow of the game). Otherwise, as Vaporak said, to not use the so called "winning strategy" is just a choice by said player and nothing more.

One thing you have to understand is that at some point there is a meta-game layer above the regular game layer. It's discussed at length in many different pro communities, but essentially once you break through the "wall" of the limits in a game you see all sorts of other meta games at play. If you've watched enough Starcraft Korean play you know this to be true. There are so many crazy things going on in those matches that you'd never see in most normal matches. To use those strats and glitches just becomes part of the all-encompassing ruleset.

A tangible example: they found out how to shoot and move with vultures in SC1. They still use it today in real tournament play. The important thing is that all players go into their games knowing this is a possibility of play given the current landscape of "rules" in the game.

I don't know why you guys are so hell bent on differentiating the two, fairness and balance is the same thing. There is no one "winning strategy", since there is balance. Only a game that is imbalanced has one winning strategy. I don't even know why you bringing the meta-game up, it has nothing to do with it, they're just making use of the game through their skills. The move and shoot with vultures is fair since Blizzard hasn't patched it out, its part of the game. There's many little tricks like this in SC.

 

[PhoenixDark]

StonyJackson
187
(same as always: I share the account with my brothers; they'll usually tell you if I'm not playing)

My brothers got us into platinum 1v1 and I've been struggling ever since. I've embarrassed myself in nearly every game I've played. I was doing pretty good in gold league, but platinum is simply ridiculous (I'm zerg)

I have ZvZ down pretty well, but I fail at everything else. I might as well gg and quit if I'm playing terran. Protoss are more manageable. I find myself struggling with basic stuff like getting my minerals saturated or simply building units - things I had no problems with before the beta came back. Dunno if I've simply forgotten how to play or what. :lol

Any tips of ZvT?

 

[zoukka]

Any tips of ZvT?

Hydras if he goes bio.
Roaches if he goes mech.
Infestors sooner against mech.
Mutas are useless against mech.

Scout like a madman. I never scout enough.

 

[scoobs]

Hydras if he goes bio.
Roaches if he goes mech.
Infestors sooner against mech.
Mutas are useless against mech.

Scout like a madman. I never scout enough.

lol what? How do you ever win?? Basically what he said except i'd put tons of emphasis on infestors against terran bio balls AND mech. Nothing more hilarious than fungle growth on a bunch of dropships

 

[Vaporak]

Fairness has everything to do with the races being balanced and is the same thing as using more then one strategy. Without balance people won't use different strategys because they'd have to use the same winning strat, without that balance the game isn't fair. How much more do I have to break it down?


But its not, the better race wins, just because I mentioned how to win with all those race doesn't mean they're all winners. Terran would win always since their scvs would just kill their workers, so its not balanced, thus I always lose and that makes it not fair.

Can you please precisely define what a fair game is.

 

[fanboi]

Any tips of ZvT?

When game starts:

Press Enter.

Type "GG" and "Terran mech is so OP" and "Blizzard has to fix this".

Then F10 and Surrender.

Best I can do so far.

 

[Hazaro]

StonyJackson
187
(same as always: I share the account with my brothers; they'll usually tell you if I'm not playing)

My brothers got us into platinum 1v1 and I've been struggling ever since. I've embarrassed myself in nearly every game I've played. I was doing pretty good in gold league, but platinum is simply ridiculous (I'm zerg)

I have ZvZ down pretty well, but I fail at everything else. I might as well gg and quit if I'm playing terran. Protoss are more manageable. I find myself struggling with basic stuff like getting my minerals saturated or simply building units - things I had no problems with before the beta came back. Dunno if I've simply forgotten how to play or what. :lol

Any tips of ZvT?

ling/bling/muta vs bio
Infestors a must. Hydra support can help a bit.

Gain map control and 2 expos vs mech and just harass as much as possible and tech up after you've saturated your bases. 1 base muta works well for this.

 

[zoukka]

lol what? How do you ever win?? Basically what he said except i'd put tons of emphasis on infestors against terran bio balls AND mech. Nothing more hilarious than fungle growth on a bunch of dropships

Well I do ok. Those advices are for the early game and any "do this" strategy should always be taken with a grain of salt.

Hydras are great against bio. This is a fact.

Roaches do well against early mech. Terran has marines, hellions and tanks. Tanks obviously counter roaches, but they still are beefy and if you time your movement upgrade correctly, they just zoom on the tanks negating siege.

Infestors are essential against mech. Without neural parasite or Broodlords, the zerg automatically loses to the Thor/Tank ball.

Infestors are great against bio, but the first big push comes before you have enough infestors to deter the ball efficently. That's why you should concentrate on regular army first.

 

[Xal-Shoota]

Can you please precisely define what a fair game is.

Ok I kind of stumbled onto the end of this quote war,but I think I know what each of you might be trying to say...
( in the simplest terms....)
You: fairness and balance arent the same. If terrans can use some epic strat that always wins, that's fine. Everyone can just pick Terran and use the strat, but if you don't, too bad and good luck , your fault for not just picking the guaranteed plan.

Him: fair and balanced are tied. But what he is saying is that it's not fair if one race were to have an epic strat that always dominates other races and plans.

I see why you think he is wrong, because "technically" he is, in the context of the " game" beginning when races are picked.
But guess what. In reality, blizzard"s goal is to create a balanced game in which all races have some kind of chance to stop or counter any strat from any other race or player, provided they can see it coming. So saying " yeah well anyone
Can pick Terran , do x and y, and win" destroys the soul of this game. T
I guarantee you that the folks at blizzard work hard to make a balanced 3 race game to foster an interesting game that forces players to use their heads every game and create engaging experiences each game, rather than passively sit and have everyone use the same uncreative tactic over and over.

That's my 2 cents! Hope you guys see where each other is coming from, and sorry if I misinterpreted either of you,

 

[zoukka]

This is just horrible. I started playing random. I suck at terran. And I've yet to lose with Terran. I'm in platinum.

Spoiler

Fucking Terran :b

 

[Son of Godzilla]

:lol @ the quibbling over "fairness."

"Fair" as defined by "WELL YOU COULDA DONE IT TOO" is utterly uninteresting and a conversation killer.

 

[Vaporak]

Ok I kind of stumbled onto the end of this quote war,but I think I know what each of you might be trying to say...
( in the simplest terms....)
You: fairness and balance arent the same. If terrans can use some epic strat that always wins, that's fine. Everyone can just pick Terran and use the strat, but if you don't, too bad and good luck , your fault for not just picking the guaranteed plan.

Him: fair and balanced are tied. But what he is saying is that it's not fair if one race were to have an epic strat that always dominates other races and plans.

I see why you think he is wrong, because "technically" he is, in the context of the " game" beginning when races are picked.
But guess what. In reality, blizzard"s goal is to create a balanced game in which all races have some kind of chance to stop or counter any strat from any other race or player, provided they can see it coming. So saying " yeah well anyone
Can pick Terran , do x and y, and win" destroys the soul of this game. T
I guarantee you that the folks at blizzard work hard to make a balanced 3 race game to foster an interesting game that forces players to use their heads every game and create engaging experiences each game, rather than passively sit and have everyone use the same uncreative tactic over and over.

That's my 2 cents! Hope you guys see where each other is coming from, and sorry if I misinterpreted either of you,

Ya you're pretty much right on my position, that's why I asked him to just define what he means since we seem like we're talking past each other. I do think a balanced game is a better game, which is why I said that the beta test has been for Blizzard to try and make the game more strategically interesting, as those two ideas are related. Fairness however shouldn't even be entering the conversation if we're talking about the strategic depth and balance of the game though, as "fairness" a given as long as the players all have access to the same choices. Doing so is just a red herring and puts the discussion off course.

Besides, discussing "fair" is very on topic because someone just HAD to quote Sirlin in a competitive game's thread. :lol

 

[Man]

Do we know how big the install will be for the final/full game?

 

[thefil]

A zerg ball < any other ball without intense micro.

This is the problem I'm having. I had a 200 2/2 hydra ball lose to a 125 mech army. Zerg requires some finesse; I'm just not sure exactly how to perform yet.

 

[Hazaro]

This is the problem I'm having. I had a 200 2/2 hydra ball lose to a 125 mech army. Zerg requires some finesse; I'm just not sure exactly how to perform yet.

Your reinforcements are part of how you play your race.
Send in 40 roaches after that, creep the map, expo, force T to stay defensive because if the mech moves out you will steam roll his base, etc.

Same core principles are still here.

 

[zoukka]

Your reinforcements are part of how you play your race.
Send in 40 roaches after that, creep the map, expo, force T to stay defensive because if the mech moves out you will steam roll his base, etc.

Same core principles are still here.

aka: zerg needs to be more active. Like said many times in this thread

 

[VOOK]

Just had the most epic match, my 2v2 on Twilight Fortress. My Partner dropped out and I took control of his stuff and just go them to full capacity mining and then Cannon'd then to protect. Then defended my T base by blocking the ramp and then Cannoning everywhere to protect it. Then ramped straight up to mass Void Rays, Carriers and Pheonix and a Mship and then just went a cleaned out their base.

They destroyed my base but by the time they took out the cannons they had nothing let.

Muhahah

 

[Kinyou]

Has this been posted here yet?

DalaiLamer vs. WhiteRa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLW5ius_lI4

My head is still literally spinning from the awesome that game was. :lol

 

[JasoNsider]

Fairness has everything to do with the races being balanced and is the same thing as using more then one strategy. Without balance people won't use different strategys because they'd have to use the same winning strat, without that balance the game isn't fair. How much more do I have to break it down?

But its not, the better race wins, just because I mentioned how to win with all those race doesn't mean they're all winners. Terran would win always since their scvs would just kill their workers, so its not balanced, thus I always lose and that makes it not fair.

I don't know why you guys are so hell bent on differentiating the two, fairness and balance is the same thing. There is no one "winning strategy", since there is balance. Only a game that is imbalanced has one winning strategy. I don't even know why you bringing the meta-game up, it has nothing to do with it, they're just making use of the game through their skills. The move and shoot with vultures is fair since Blizzard hasn't patched it out, its part of the game. There's many little tricks like this in SC.

You just slipped down the slippery slope You just said yourself moving vultures is fair game because it's in the game and hasn't been patched. So how about glitching through stasis blocks on a ramp by pushing with other units? That's a "glitch" yet I've seen it used in broadcasted tournament matches. You're just going to outlaw entire moves in a game?

Same goes for other games. In one of the street fighters there is a 2-3 frame invicibility window when you do a certain move, and all high level players are aware of it. It's tricky to pull off, but those master players can get it. You want to ban players that use this trick? You want to make rules that decipher whether the player did it intentionally?

Point is, until it's patched it's a fair strategy. You have the same set of choices in choosing race and strategy that I do.

Blizzard is balancing the game because it makes it more fun to play, and more enjoyable as a well-rounded strategy game. Everybody in this thread wants Blizzard to make this a balanced and fun game. That has nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with trying to set up an ecosystem whereby their 3 mainstay races have some cool ability to offer players, thereby giving the game a long play-life.

A side note: something that has a fair bit of standard deviation (ie, diverts from some sort of balanced middle line) such as Starcraft will always be the most entertaining. If all races were essentially palette swaps of each other it wouldn't be even nearly as fun. It should be noted that one of the best parts of Starcraft is really that it becomes a game where every race has some "dirty cool strat" that is really powerful. The further you get away from some safe middle-line, the more fun the game becomes for the player and the spectator. Blizzard definitely understood this idea for both SC games!

 

[Won]

Has this been posted here yet?

DalaiLamer vs. WhiteRa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLW5ius_lI4

My head is still literally spinning from the awesome that game was. :lol

WTFDIDIJUSTWATCH?

 

[jasonng]

Has this been posted here yet?

DalaiLamer vs. WhiteRa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLW5ius_lI4

My head is still literally spinning from the awesome that game was. :lol

Holy that was intense. All that back and forth was insane. And I wish the game lasted a little longer because it definitely looked like

Spoiler

Dalailamer

gg'd too soon.

 

[dimb]

Has this been posted here yet?

DalaiLamer vs. WhiteRa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLW5ius_lI4

My head is still literally spinning from the awesome that game was. :lol

I feel bad for any girl who has ever had sex with Husky.

"Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ah ah aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"

 

[chris-013]

Has this been posted here yet?

DalaiLamer vs. WhiteRa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLW5ius_lI4

My head is still literally spinning from the awesome that game was. :lol

Holy shit !