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[Zzoram]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck I played 15 games in the past 12 hours.

This game is going to keep me unemployed for another month.

15 games, averaging 20 minutes, is only 5 hours. You're not beta testing hard enough.

 

[DemiMatt]

I dropped from 8th on my ladder to 81 overnight. Had a massive losing streak T____________T

Anyone looking for a beta 2v2 partner? I play toss and terran

DemiMatt.Demi add meh!

 

[Minsc]

I think, and understandably, that they worried about changing SC's multiplayer too much would result in a backlash - or worse, that torunements would stick with SC. SC2 is a refined version of the first, a few more units, better graphics and tactical cover - a better multiplayer experiance overall.

Single player I think is where they will show the most radical improvements - and units that can not be balanced. It honestly looks like a cross between DOW2's campagin map, SC's tactical view and Mass Effect's Normandy segements - which is all good.

This should be stressed for people who want more changes.

Single player will have unique, hero like units, with upgradable powers that carry over between levels, and having choose between taking certain units to missions with you, it'll be significantly different than what you see in multiplayer.

Levels where terrain changes during gameplay (lava raises destroying all units caught on the lower levels), levels where day/night cycles bring out a force of creatures every night, making you only have a short period of daylight to raise enough defense to last the night, lots of really interesting concepts are going to be in the single player mode.

 

[Door2Dawn]

I dropped from 8th on my ladder to 81 overnight. Had a massive losing streak T____________T

Anyone looking for a beta 2v2 partner? I play toss and terran

DemiMatt.Demi add meh!

You should let me play on your account, I r teh proz

 

[Ice Monkey]

What are you guys smoking? They didn't change the units?! A refresher:

New Stuff
Protoss

Units
Colossus
Immortal
Mothership
Phoenix
Sentry
Stalker
Void ray
Warp prism

Buildings
Dark shrine
Twilight council
Warp gate

Terran

Units
Banshee
Hellion
Marauder
Medivac
MULE
Raven
Reaper
Thor
Viking
Auto-turret (raven unit)
Defensive drone (raven unit)

Buildings
Orbital command
Planetary fortress
Fusion core
Ghost academy
Sensor tower
Reactor
Tech lab

Zerg

Units
Corruptor
Brood lord
Infestor
Overseer
Changeling
Roach
Baneling
Broodling

Buildings
Baneling nest
Creep tumor
Infestation pit
Nydus network
Nydus worm
Roach warren
Spine crawler
Spore crawler

Old Stuff
Protoss

Units
Archon
Carrier
Dark templar
High templar
Observer
Probe
Zealot

Buildings
Assimilator
Cybernetics core
Fleet beacon
Forge
Gateway
Nexus
Photon cannon
Pylon
Robotics facility
Robotics bay
Stargate
Templar archives

Terran

Units
Battlecruiser
Ghost
Marine
SCV
Siege tank

Buildings
Armory
Barracks
Bunker
Command center
Engineering bay
Factory
Missile turret
Refinery
Starport
Supply depot

Zerg

Units
Drone
Hydralisk
Larva
Mutalisk
Overlord
Queen
Ultralisk
Zergling

Buildings
Evolution chamber
Extractor
Hatchery
Lair
Hive
Hydralisk den
Spawning pool
Spire
Greater spire
Ultralisk cavern

That's not even counting all the stuff they removed because it wasnt balanced for multiplayer and other stuff from SC1 all of which will be in the galaxy editor.

stuff from SC1:
Firebats
Medics
Vultures
Wraiths
Dropship
Goliath
valkyrie
Science Vessel
Lots of add-ons changed

Defiler
Devourer
Guardian
Infested Terran
Lurker
Scourge
Spore Colony
Sunken Colony

Arbiter
Dark archon
Corsair
Dragoon
Reaver
Scout

Removed from Multiplayer:

Protoss
Purifier
Tempest
Star relic
Stasis orb
Twilight archon
Obelisk
Observatory
Phase cannon
War beacon
War shrine

Terran
Cobra
Predator
Mine drone
Spider mine
Targeting drone
Merc compound
Munitions depot
Radar tower
Shadow ops
Star base

Zerg
Corrupted mass
Infested protoss
Large Queen
Huge Queen
Morphalisk
Swarm guardian
Swarm
Infested protoss buildings
Infested terran buildings
Lurker den
Shrieker
Swarm clutch
Brutalisk



I don't know about you guys but that seems like a whole truckload of changes to me. I think it's commendable that they managed to give you the feel of SC1 while at the same time doing a major overhaul on most every unit. Would you rather they just completely change every unit?

 

[scoobs]

God dammit I didn't get in again! Le sigh..

 

[Ice Monkey]

Wow, this is really impressive graphically. :O I suck at multiplayer though. :lol I wish there was some singleplayer stuff to play, even if it was just a test mission with no storyline. Or perhaps some vs CPU practice mode.

First game I played I get a message about 30 seconds in: "nub or pro?" Great, just what I'm looking forward to Blizzard. :lol

At least they seem to have made a lot of effort to make the game accessible to new players or people who suck at multitasking like me. Lots of stuff to help identify where you fucked up in your gameplan. It's almost like reading a postgame analysis for a sporting event.

livewire that was me! I was trying to see if you wanted to do some 2v2, but if you're a pro I wouldn't stand a chance so i was trying to get a 2v2 that was relatively fair :lol

 

[Door2Dawn]

nm

 

[Vitet]

That's what I was fearing. Not many changes in the factions units either. Why didn't they add a new race or something more to show us that this game truly stands above the first?

Ok so it obviously does stand quite above the first because of the new engine, graphics, etc. but they still didn't change much. As long as it's easier to play MP than it has been using battlenet, I'm in

Maybe we see a new race in the Campaign. It happened before, remember the Naga?

 

[Ice Monkey]

Maybe we see a new race in the Campaign. It happened before, remember the Naga?

possibly, didnt chaos have a race too of some sort? but you couldn't play as them.

 

[MoxManiac]

Ice Monkey, so the stuff removed from SC1 will be in the editor?

One of my favorite things about SC1/WC3 were the elaborate custom maps. I hope this trend continues with SC2.

 

[ZealousD]

One of my favorite things about SC1/WC3 were the elaborate custom maps. I hope this trend continues with SC2.

You NEED to watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joNPrnY4K_4

 

[Spire]

I thought RPS summed up my feelings well. Blizzard ignored the past decade of RTS innovation because they were scared to mess up their baby. The game feels archaic, and it brings nothing new to the table.

 

[LiveWire]

livewire that was me! I was trying to see if you wanted to do some 2v2, but if you're a pro I wouldn't stand a chance so i was trying to get a 2v2 that was relatively fair :lol

:lol Oh shit, sorry man! I figured I was going to get owned from the start when I saw that question and I only had time for one game so I just wanted to build up the tech tree to see what was available. Had I known it was a GAFfer I would've suggested we just sit back and build up and practice attacking/defending various unit types. I'll be on again tonight though, let's get another game in...btw that map was pretty awesome, I like the destructible environment, sort of risk/reward since you can't scout until you remove it, but you open yourself up to rushes if you do.

 

[BananaBomb]

I thought RPS summed up my feelings well. Blizzard ignored the past decade of RTS innovation because they were scared to mess up their baby. The game feels archaic, and it brings nothing new to the table.

Too bad sans CoH, which is a very unique game, the last decade of RTS "innovation" has been overwhelmingly un-fun.

 

[Minsc]

Ice Monkey, so the stuff removed from SC1 will be in the editor?

One of my favorite things about SC1/WC3 were the elaborate custom maps. I hope this trend continues with SC2.

The editor for SC2 is supposed to be the WC3 editor to shame, so the custom content in SC2 should reach a whole new level, and I believe you can even sell your work through battle.net, which can be a good thing.

I thought RPS summed up my feelings well. Blizzard ignored the past decade of RTS innovation because they were scared to mess up their baby. The game feels archaic, and it brings nothing new to the table.

Thank the fucking gods for that, I'm tired of everything always changing sometimes.

 

[Interfectum]

I thought RPS summed up my feelings well. Blizzard ignored the past decade of RTS innovation because they were scared to mess up their baby. The game feels archaic, and it brings nothing new to the table.

The past decade of RTS 'innovation' has been nothing but bloat and/or dumbing down the genre. StarCraft 2 is a refreshing change from that bullshit.

 

[Spire]

The past decade of RTS 'innovation' has been nothing but bloat and/or dumbing down the genre. StarCraft 2 is a refreshing change from that bullshit.

I don't know, after CoH Starcraft feels like a step backwards, but that's just me.

 

[ZealousD]

I thought RPS summed up my feelings well. Blizzard ignored the past decade of RTS innovation because they were scared to mess up their baby. The game feels archaic, and it brings nothing new to the table.

If you think StarCraft 2 is archaic, then you never really enjoyed the first game.

 

[Zzoram]

Ya, I feel like the RTS audience has actually shrunk with all the changes that have occurred over the last decade. Modern RTS games have removed many of the things that made RTS fun such as the fast pace of the action and the base/economy management. Also, Blizzard's Battle.net is still the premiere online RTS service, with the Warcraft 3 system still far superior to anything the competition has even attempted.

Slow plodding RTS games with minimal base/economy management like CoH/DoW may get nice reveiws for being different, but they aren't as fun, wide appealing, nor do they hold the longevity of a Blizzard game due to mediocre online environments.

It's like all the reviewers saying the same thing about NSMB.Wii when it's easily the best mario game ever made, and certainly the most fun to play.

 

[BananaBomb]

Ya, I feel like the RTS audience has actually shrunk with all the changes that have occurred over the last decade. Modern RTS games have removed many of the things that made RTS fun such as the fast pace of the action and the base/economy management. Also, Blizzard's Battle.net is still the premiere online RTS service, with the Warcraft 3 system still far superior to anything the competition has even attempted.

Slow plodding RTS games with minimal base/economy management like CoH/DoW may get nice reveiws for being different, but they aren't as fun, wide appealing, nor do they hold the longevity of a Blizzard game due to mediocre online environments.

It's like all the reviewers saying the same thing about NSMB.Wii when it's easily the best mario game ever made, and certainly the most fun to play.

I was nodding my head and smiling at your post until you put down Super Mario Galaxy. Tsk, tsk.

 

[Interfectum]

I don't know, after CoH Starcraft feels like a step backwards, but that's just me.

CoH is great for what it is, but it's not the type of gameplay I'd want in StarCraft.

I also wouldn't discount the major innovations coming in the single player campaign and the custom games. DotA, Tower Defense, Footie Wars, etc all born out of Blizzard map editors. I can't wait to see what comes from SC2.

 

[Zzoram]

I was nodding my head and smiling at your post until you put down Super Mario Galaxy. Tsk, tsk.

I wasn't so much putting down SMG as saying that NSMB.Wii is more fun and accessible because it's easier to pick up and play (due to the short levels) and ability to have friends on the couch play with you.

 

[Minsc]

If you think StarCraft 2 is archaic, then you never really enjoyed the first game.

I agree, I vastly prefer the traditional formula to this new RPG-lite anti-building/gathering crap... CoH didn't click with me much either, I don't enjoy having to deal with cover and similar BS.

The only advancement in RTS I've ever enjoyed was DoW's strategic command point system and squads.

A game isn't a proper RTS to me without buildings and towers.

 

[Mindlog]

I thought RPS summed up my feelings well. Blizzard ignored the past decade of RTS innovation because they were scared to mess up their baby. The game feels archaic, and it brings nothing new to the table.

That's just ridiculous. It's aggravating that people can't accept multiple types of RTS games.

It's like playing ToV and claiming, "I can't believe they haven't adopted the game speed settings from Sins of a Solar Empire. Earl game is too slow and late game is too fast."

I played Close Combat for years. CoH brought nothing new to the table, but I played the crap out of it. I'd kill for a new Homeworld game that 'brought nothing new to the table.'

 

[Zzoram]

If you think StarCraft 2 is archaic, then you never really enjoyed the first game.

CoH was a tranny surprise for me. I was expecting real-time strategy and got real-time tactics. It's even worse than Warcraft 3 for having units that take too long to die and putting too much emphasis on units and not enough on the base.

I find that when units have too much health compared to damage, and everything takes too long to die or respond to your commands, the game is very boring to watch and very slow paced to play. The fact that Starcraft Broodwar had so many instances where huge armies could die in 1 second gave it so much more excitement than playing games where units can lob fire back and forth for a minute.

 

[JSnake]

I thought RPS summed up my feelings well. Blizzard ignored the past decade of RTS innovation because they were scared to mess up their baby. The game feels archaic, and it brings nothing new to the table.

I dunno, I really think SC2 is much more accessible than SC. The new BNet goes a long way towards this.

 

[Spire]

Ya, I feel like the RTS audience has actually shrunk with all the changes that have occurred over the last decade. Modern RTS games have removed many of the things that made RTS fun such as the fast pace of the action and the base/economy management. Also, Blizzard's Battle.net is still the premiere online RTS service, with the Warcraft 3 system still far superior to anything the competition has even attempted.

Slow plodding RTS games with minimal base/economy management like CoH/DoW may get nice reveiws for being different, but they aren't as fun, wide appealing, nor do they hold the longevity of a Blizzard game due to mediocre online environments.

It's like all the reviewers saying the same thing about NSMB.Wii when it's easily the best mario game ever made, and certainly the most fun to play.

I wouldn't consider CoH plodding or slow, it just isn't dominated he who has the highest cpm.

CoH is great for what it is, but it's not the type of gameplay I'd want in StarCraft.

I also wouldn't discount the major innovations coming in the single player campaign and the custom games. DotA, Tower Defense, Footie Wars, etc all born out of Blizzard map editors. I can't wait to see what comes from SC2.

I wouldn't want Starcraft to be a CoH-clone either, but I was hoping it would innovate at least a little. And things like DotA were spawned from what innovation Blizzard did try with Warcraft 3. DotA wouldn't exist if Blizzard hadn't tried the hero system in WC3, SC2 doesn't break any new ground at all.

 

[Ice Monkey]

i enjoy red alert 1 more than CoH or DoW2 just because of base building.

The latest "innovations" in RTS are basically nothing more than ignoring the hardest part of building an RTS as it seems: good base building core with good unit balance and control as a plus added on top of that.

Don't get me wrong, I bought DoW2 and enjoy it from time to time but theres just something inherently wrong in my opinion with getting rid of base building.

I mean look at cnc4 beta and how much people have seemed to slander it. What does it do? get rid of base building almost entirely and it seems like the SP doesn't have it either.

God CNC3 was even a treat just because of a pretty damn good attempt at a third race and the emphasis on base building!

I know other people prefer more rpg, tactical elements and stuff instead of base building but not me in the least.

 

[ZealousD]

A game isn't a proper RTS to me without buildings and towers.

I wouldn't go that far. I think the genre is malleable enough to allow for many different types of games. That being said, I wouldn't call removing resources and building innovation. That's just something different. If you want a game like that, go play a game like that. Doesn't make StarCraft archaic.

And anybody complaining about Starcraft not being accessible need to quit whining. Blizzard does everything it can to accommodate new players. The single player campaigns are all manageably beatable by novice players (and always have cheats if you're stuck) and do a great job of introducing new units and teaching you the basics of the game. Not to mention that the new battle.net is going to have probably the best matchmaking service in the genre.

 

[The Lamonster]

I wouldn't want Starcraft to be a CoH-clone either, but I was hoping it would innovate at least a little. And things like DotA were spawned from what innovation Blizzard did try with Warcraft 3. DotA wouldn't exist if Blizzard hadn't tried the hero system in WC3, SC2 doesn't break any new ground at all.

I will be happy just to see my favorite custom WC3 maps remade for SC2. Specifically Burbenog TD, Element TD, Battleships, DotA, etc

 

[Ice Monkey]

I wouldn't consider CoH plodding or slow, it just isn't dominated he who has the highest cpm.




I wouldn't want Starcraft to be a CoH-clone either, but I was hoping it would innovate at least a little. And things like DotA were spawned from what innovation Blizzard did try with Warcraft 3. DotA wouldn't exist if Blizzard hadn't tried the hero system in WC3, SC2 doesn't break any new ground at all.

you can like dota all you want and if that type of custom map support is what you love then sc2 is (half) made for you.

Don't hate blizzard for both appealing to the pro, melee-starcraft gaming hordes as well as doing just as much for the custom game crowd. I used to be in the latter almost exclusively but now after being forced to play "melee-starcraft" version of sc2 with the beta im starting to have my eyes opened to what everyone loves so much about classic SC gameplay.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"And things like DotA were spawned from what innovation Blizzard did try with Warcraft 3."


The Hero mechanic was done in RTSs before Warcraft 3. Also, DotA was spawned by Aeon of Strife which was a Starcraft map.

 

[notworksafe]

CoH was a tranny surprise for me.

Haha wow.

 

[Zzoram]

I think people forget that Warcraft 3 originally had ZERO base management. It was just about managing a squad of heroes that would carry over from level to level (in the campaign), occasionally visiting towns to hire replacement mercenaries and buy loot. Multiplayer would be squad vs squad, with neutral buildings scattered about to buy from and creeps to kill for experience/loot. Then Blizzard realized that the game they created was not as fun as one with base management, and they completely redesigned the game. Blizzard isn't stupid. They chose to make the more fun game instead of making a game "innovative" just for the sake of it. Reviewers and GAFfers care way more about innovation than the real world does, and usually give it far too much weight in judging games. The real world only cares about fun. Refinement of a fun game design to make a more fun, more accessible game is a really great thing.

The fact that Blizzard has a Copper League in their matchmaking system, Very Easy setting for the AI, and Novice versions of maps (they have tons of destructible rocks blocking off bases to seriously delay rushes) shows that Blizzard is making SC2 highly accessible.

 

[MoxManiac]

You NEED to watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joNPrnY4K_4

:O

want.

 

[Ice Monkey]

"And things like DotA were spawned from what innovation Blizzard did try with Warcraft 3."


If I wanted to be a dick, I would point out that the Hero mechanic was done in RTSs before Warcraft 3.

but it wouldnt be being a dick if it's true

would you say wc3 did it the best though? I'm not familiar (i don't think so at least) with hero mechanics done before wc3.

 

[Apath]

CoH was a tranny surprise for me. I was expecting real-time strategy and got real-time tactics. It's even worse than Warcraft 3 for having units that take too long to die and putting too much emphasis on units and not enough on the base.

I find that when units have too much health compared to damage, and everything takes too long to die or respond to your commands, the game is very boring to watch and very slow paced to play. The fact that Starcraft Broodwar had so many instances where huge armies could die in 1 second gave it so much more excitement than playing games where units can lob fire back and forth for a minute.

Warcraft 3's biggest issues were the heroes being too powerful, especially once they hit level 5, which made most of the game players vs creeps rather than player vs player, so the first 15 minutes of most matches sucked balls and were almost always the same.

You NEED to watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joNPrnY4K_4

I love how the announcer is going nuts over the 3rd person view, keyboard movement, and going inside a building/underground, when I was doing all of those things (and many others) back in WC3.

 

[ZealousD]

Blizzard did try with Warcraft 3. DotA wouldn't exist if Blizzard hadn't tried the hero system in WC3

The new SC2 map editor is insanely powerful. Did you watch the video I posted in post #2614?

We're most certainly going to see some new game genres spawn from this. Starcraft gave us Tower Defense. Warcraft 3 gave us DotA. Starcraft 2 will give us even more.

 

[DemiMatt]

For the new wave of people or any current ones, if you want to 2v2 at please add me. I'll be adding everyone from the sc2 match discussion post tonight,

DemiMatt.Demi

 

[Ice Monkey]

:O

want.

I just watched that too.....best video demo ever
"this is the uberlisk, he has spine crawlers on his back and is pimp"
"as you'll see the spore crawlers are shooting banelings as projectiles towards the uberlisk but he is just too mighty"

 

[BananaBomb]

Warcraft 3's biggest issues were the heroes being too powerful, especially once they hit level 5, which made most of the game players vs creeps rather than player vs player, so the first 15 minutes of most matches sucked balls and were almost always the same.

I love how the announcer is going nuts over the 3rd person view, mouse controls, and going inside a building/underground, when I was doing all of those things (and many others) back in WC3.

Definitely. The game would have been much better if the heroes were weaker.

 

[Ice Monkey]

For the new wave of people or any current ones, if you want to 2v2 at please add me. I'll be adding everyone from the sc2 match discussion post tonight,

DemiMatt.Demi

i really dunno why but apparently blizz split europeans off into their own group!

I cant add you

 

[Littleberu]

I don't know, after CoH Starcraft feels like a step backwards, but that's just me.

They're not the same game at all.

 

[Houston3000]

I think people forget that Warcraft 3 originally had ZERO base management. It was just about managing a squad of heroes that would carry over from level to level (in the campaign), occasionally visiting towns to hire replacement mercenaries and buy loot. Multiplayer would be squad vs squad, with neutral buildings scattered about to buy from and creeps to kill for experience/loot. Then Blizzard realized that the game they created was not as fun as one with base management, and they completely redesigned the game. Blizzard isn't stupid. They chose to make the more fun game instead of making a game "innovative" just for the sake of it. Reviewers and GAFfers care way more about innovation than the real world does, and usually give it far too much weight in judging games. The real world only cares about fun. Refinement of a fun game design to make a more fun, more accessible game is a really great thing.

The fact that Blizzard has a Copper League in their matchmaking system, Very Easy setting for the AI, and Novice versions of maps (they have tons of destructible rocks blocking off bases to seriously delay rushes) shows that Blizzard is making SC2 highly accessible.

I remember those early previews of Warcraft III. No base building, super zoomed in close camera, small squads, etc... you would apparently hire mercenaries but that was it. The game was all about using your units tactically to set up ambushes and stuff, apparently you could do things like sneak up on enemy camps and listen into the NPCs' dialogue to gain advantages in combat as well.

Man, was I happy when they decided to pull the camera back and add base-building again

 

[Zzoram]

I remember those early previews of Warcraft III. No base building, super zoomed in close camera, small squads, etc... you would apparently hire mercenaries but that was it. The game was all about using your units tactically to set up ambushes and stuff, apparently you could do things like sneak up on enemy camps and listen into the NPCs' dialogue to gain advantages in combat as well.

Man, was I happy when they decided to pull the camera back and add base-building again

I have a feeling that if Blizzard kept that original game design, the game would've been much less successful. Blizzard wouldn't have been in a position to create WoW, and they may not even be around today, or at least only as a much smaller, less important developer.

 

[ZealousD]

I remember those early previews of Warcraft III. No base building, super zoomed in close camera, small squads, etc... you would apparently hire mercenaries but that was it. The game was all about using your units tactically to set up ambushes and stuff, apparently you could do things like sneak up on enemy camps and listen into the NPCs' dialogue to gain advantages in combat as well.

Man, was I happy when they decided to pull the camera back and add base-building again

That sorta what they did in the orc campaign of The Frozen Throne, wasn't it?

 

[Ice Monkey]

I have a feeling that if Blizzard kept that original game design, the game would've been much less successful. Blizzard wouldn't have been in a position to create WoW, and they may not even be around today, or at least only as a much smaller, less important developer.

hehe but if they never created wow, think of all the lives that would have been saved, plus we'd already have sc2 and diablo 3 by now

 

[Zzoram]

hehe but if they never created wow, think of all the lives that would have been saved, plus we'd already have sc2 and diablo 3 by now

SC2 and D3 would be inferior games without the income from WoW.

 

[coopolon]

Reviewers and GAFfers care way more about innovation than the real world does, and usually give it far too much weight in judging games. The real world only cares about fun. Refinement of a fun game design to make a more fun

Truer words were never spoken.