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StarCraft 2 Beta |OT| (Beta Now Reopen, GL HF)

D

Dreavus

Member
Ice Monkey said:
i dont care enough to find out exactly who i disagree with in that RPS article, but i do know that one thing was hilariously misconstrued: he said something about how SC2 doesn't care to follow the recent trend of RTS doing something about how inaccessible RTSes are....I wholly disagree with this!

RTSes arent inaccessible that DoW2 for example comes along and makes it more accessible, they just get rid of the traditional/normal way to play an RTS! It isn't an rts at all barely anymore in DoW2's case as much as it is an RPG where you can control maybe 50- characters at once, like baldur's gate with 50 party members.

CNC4 is more of an RTS than DoW2 will ever be, just because basically what they've done is take the tech tree and put that into MW2-style experience points that carry over game after game, and put all the buildings into the godforsaken crawler. DoW2 matches are more like an arena battle in wow or something, whatever it is though I don't prefer it to a "traditional" base-building RTS.

I don't have anything against DoW2 for what it is, but the gameplay is basically like war3 with the altar of heroes mixed with a barracks and you just build like 25 total units then go have a brawl in the middle of the map. Then resource gathering is restricted to staying near a gold mine long enough for some magic-user to summon in 30 seconds a haunted gold mine on top of the mine with 5 acolytes pre-attached.

When you figure that you can take war3's multiplayer gameplay and mod it into what i just described above and you basically have the gist of DoW2, doesn't it seem upon first inspection this doesnt make the RTS more accessible but rather just remove a few steps that werent challenging to begin with? How hard is it to build a hatchery/cc/nexus near some resources anyway?

I KNOW many people might disagree with that but please understand its just IMHO. I'll tell you one thing, I would cry out in terror if blizzard decided with sc2 for example to have an alternate win condition that you win the game if you just control 66% of the map's expansion spots. I'd just hate the fact that it even existed as an official alternate win condition, despite the fact that if you have that much map control you're basically going to win anyway.
Click to expand...

The gameplay in Dawn of War 2 is not like Warcraft 3 in any way, shape or form.

I do agree that DoW2 probably shouldn't be classified as an RTS, though. More of a "tactics" game if that means anything at all.
 
D

darkpaladinmfc

Member
Spire said:
I haven't even played Uncharted 2, but I take your point. I love Dead Space, for example, and that game doesn't do anything new. The problem for me is Starcraft 2 doesn't feel fresh, the content doesn't feel new, it just doesn't give me any reason to buy it other than to see where the story goes in the campaign. I can get the exact same experience by playing the original game. At least with something like Dead Space I'm exploring new environments, using new weapons and fighting new enemies. SC2 follows the original to a fault, if someone sat me down in front of it and told me it was just a graphical update patch to the original game, I would have believed them. I understand for a lot of people (and the entire nation of Korea) that's perfectly fine and exactly what they wanted. I was just hoping for something more, I don't think that's a sin.
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This is completely false, each race plays very differently from what I've seen, it isn't like you can just migrate SC1 tactics straight to SC2 (But naturally SC1 skills still have a big role in SC2).
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
darkpaladinmfc said:
This is completely false, each race plays very differently from what I've seen, it isn't like you can just migrate SC1 tactics straight to SC2 (But naturally SC1 skills still have a big role in SC2).
Click to expand...

The macro is completely different in SC2. In fact, there is the potential for the new macro to be more challenging/rewarding than even the original. It guarantees that the SC2 skill ceiling will be high enough to support a professional level competitive play.
 
A

autobzooty

Member
The fact that you can select more than 12 units at once and they don't trip over each other while walking around pretty much makes it a whole different game. If they didn't change anything else, it would still be way better :lol
 
I

Ice Monkey

Member
Dreavus said:
The gameplay in Dawn of War 2 is not like Warcraft 3 in any way, shape or form.

I do agree that DoW2 probably shouldn't be classified as an RTS, though. More of a "tactics" game if that means anything at all.
Click to expand...

thats pretty much what im saying, at least in response to the RPS article. I hate that they are construing starcraft 2 as like an unimproved ghost of christmas past of RTSes. starcraft 2 is more like, one of the truest RTSes that keeps a little of the feel of SC1.

Only thing I can think of that may still be trying to actually be an RTS is supreme commander 2, although I have problems with the first one because it is just way beyond anything I can understand in a big battle.
 
The Lamonster

The Lamonster

Member
autobzooty said:
The fact that you can select more than 12 units at once and they don't trip over each other while walking around pretty much makes it a whole different game. If they didn't change anything else, it would still be way better :lol
Click to expand...
True, the pathfinding is really good too.
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
autobzooty said:
The fact that you can select more than 12 units at once and they don't trip over each other while walking around pretty much makes it a whole different game. If they didn't change anything else, it would still be way better :lol
Click to expand...

SC2 seems to be better in every way other than the fact that Mutalisk micro doesn't exist anymore. It's a damn shame too, since Mutalisk micro was one of the most exciting things in all of Broodwar to watch. That, along with Defiler Dark Swarm + Lurker dodging and Reaver shots result in amazingly tense, crowd cheering moments.
 
I

Ice Monkey

Member
The Lamonster said:
True, the pathfinding is really good too.
Click to expand...

those two things alone plus the hd visuals but everything exactly the same as SC1 would have been worth at least $30, although I would have paid $50 or more.
 
S

sdornan

Member
Feel the Swift said:
Downloaded the beta to watch replays, good to know I can watch on all Ultra. :D

...but while I enjoy watching people play, I can't help but try to click and move the units. :(
Click to expand...

So you can watch replays in-game without having a beta account?
 
I

Ice Monkey

Member
Zzoram said:
SC2 seems to be better in every way other than the fact that Mutalisk micro doesn't exist anymore. It's a damn shame too, since Mutalisk micro was one of the most exciting things in all of Broodwar to watch. That, along with Defiler Dark Swarm + Lurker dodging and Reaver shots result in amazingly tense, crowd cheering moments.
Click to expand...

muta micro still does exist, but are you specifically referring to muta stacking?

I'd classify that more as a bug that was intentionally left in, I'm not surprised they finally got rid of it, especially with it being 3d and all now.
 
I

Ice Monkey

Member
sdornan said:
So you can watch replays in-game without having a beta account?
Click to expand...

you need to download some cache folders for maps, but otherwise yes.

You arent even cracking the maps, just downloading them.

GregLombardi said:
I have heard its actually 250
Click to expand...

its 200 still, but the unit selection cap is 200-250
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
Ice Monkey said:
muta micro still does exist, but are you specifically referring to muta stacking?

I'd classify that more as a bug that was intentionally left in, I'm not surprised they finally got rid of it, especially with it being 3d and all now.
Click to expand...

They didn't mean to get rid of it. In fact, they've been trying hard to replicate the glitch but can't pull it off. Mutalisk micro was amazing because it scales in power proportionally to player skill, and it's the only reason that Zerg players are even competitive nowadays. Terran players are now so good that if a Zerg has weak Mutalisk micro, he will lose every time.
 
I

Ice Monkey

Member
Zzoram said:
They didn't mean to get rid of it. In fact, they've been trying hard to replicate the glitch but can't pull it off. Mutalisk micro was amazing because it scales in power proportionally to player skill, and it's the only reason that Zerg players are even competitive nowadays. Terran players are now so good that if a Zerg has weak Mutalisk micro, he will lose every time.
Click to expand...

wow, didnt know they were trying to replicate it. I suppose they could be just saying that though ;)

I never really followed SC1 pro stuff much, im surprised that blizz wouldnt buff zerg a little if they really require ubermicro JUST on mutalisks just to compete.
 
A

autobzooty

Member
Zzoram said:
SC2 seems to be better in every way other than the fact that Mutalisk micro doesn't exist anymore. It's a damn shame too, since Mutalisk micro was one of the most exciting things in all of Broodwar to watch. That, along with Defiler Dark Swarm + Lurker dodging and Reaver shots result in amazingly tense, crowd cheering moments.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'll miss the nerve-wracking dance between science vessels and mutalisks.

And the action-packed dance between goliaths and carriers. Goliaths were my favorite unit! :(
 
S

Spire

Subconscious Brolonging
autobzooty said:
The fact that you can select more than 12 units at once and they don't trip over each other while walking around pretty much makes it a whole different game. If they didn't change anything else, it would still be way better :lol
Click to expand...

Well, pathing was one of the only problems with the original. It's been pretty much fixed across the board with RTS's so you don't notice it too much these days. That's a legitimate upgrade for the series though, you're right.
 
A

Apath

Member
As far as I'm concerned other RTS games haven't caught up to the craft series at all thanks to the World & Galaxy editors. I would have played WC3 for a year, tops, as opposed to the 8 years I did if it weren't for the custom maps.
 
F

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
Spire said:
Well, pathing was one of the only problems with the original. It's been pretty much fixed across the board with RTS's so you don't notice it too much these days. That's a legitimate upgrade for the series though, you're right.
Click to expand...

Well, pathing is pretty good in modern games. It's awesome level in SC2 though.
And yeah, unlimited select+supreme pathing alone makes this game much better. Plus smart casting, shift building and MBS. Oh, and split way points for units and workers with the Zerg. Automining and smart worker on mineral assignment.

Those seem so basic but make the game so much more accessible. I'll play the hell out of it.
 
H

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Supply cap is 200.
Unit selection cap is 255 (Important for things like EVOLVES) and if you made over 130 eggs of zerglings.
 
I

Ice Monkey

Member
sdornan said:
Any other beta players have an idea when 3V3 and 4V4 matches open up? I always loved 3V3 in Warcraft III.
Click to expand...

nobody knows but my best guess is as soon as they let more peeps in.

Once it gets to 10000 players in at a time theyll probably open the floodgates. that and they'll have to give us more maps too, which maybe they're still bugtesting.

as it is there's only three ladders right now, 1v1, 2v2r, and 2v2 so i imagine 3v3 and 4v4 would just split the ladders too much.
 
Torquill

Torquill

Member
Zzoram said:
Blizzard RTS games are also the only ones where people care about the story and especially the characters. That is really important for attracting wide audiences.
Click to expand...
Primary reason I'm playing. Blizzard RTS games are really the only one I play, and the only reason is because they have compelling single player campaigns.
 
F

FieryBalrog

Member
Dreavus said:
The gameplay in Dawn of War 2 is not like Warcraft 3 in any way, shape or form.

I do agree that DoW2 probably shouldn't be classified as an RTS, though. More of a "tactics" game if that means anything at all.
Click to expand...

Dawn of War 2 just doesn't do it for me. The first game was good clean casual fun. The second game is just awful to play online. Every game plays out the same way, there is absolutely no variety and Tyranids were monstrously overpowered forever.
 
S

Sloegr

Member
Ice Monkey said:
wow, didnt know they were trying to replicate it. I suppose they could be just saying that though ;)

I never really followed SC1 pro stuff much, im surprised that blizz wouldnt buff zerg a little if they really require ubermicro JUST on mutalisks just to compete.
Click to expand...

You should watch some high level zerg play to see how insane muta micro can be. Zerg have plenty of success and certainly don't need a buff.
 
P

Pai Pai Master

Banned
Alright, something seems to have clicked with me for Terran finally. I was starting to get discouraged for a moment there. :lol

I can't claim to be really good or anything but if anyone wants to play with me whenever, add me.

adnaanc.paipaimaster
 
C

close to the edge

Member
The Lamonster said:
I will be happy just to see my favorite custom WC3 maps remade for SC2. Specifically Burbenog TD, Element TD, Battleships, DotA, etc
Click to expand...
I'm very curious about what Icefrog (current developer of DotA) has planned for SC2, even though he's now working for Valve.
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
theMrCravens said:
think they'll send another wave of invites tonight ?
Click to expand...

Unlikely. I'd give it at least a week until the next round.

The sad part is there are still <3000 people online at any time according to my friend in the beta.
 
N

Noriym

Neo Member
Does anyone know where I can get information on Starcraft 2 concerning Unit Damage Types and Armor Types, specifically how much Damage type A does to Armor type B.

They had this for Starcraft 1 and Warcraft 3.

Thanks!
 
C

Calavera520

Member
interesting bit I noticed in this replay

Seems that vikings in air mode, normally only Anti-Air, are able to shoot the protoss colossus, a (very tall) ground unit.

Still don't have the beta but wish I did so I could just mess around trying different units.
 
A

Apath

Member
Calavera520 said:
interesting bit I noticed in this replay

Seems that vikings in air mode, normally only Anti-Air, are able to shoot the protoss colossus, a (very tall) ground unit.

Still don't have the beta but wish I did so I could just mess around trying different units.
Click to expand...
It was said a while back that Colossus can be hit by air attacks as well as ground attacks. Apparently this hasn't changed.
 
Z

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Yeah I immediately heard "raid" night. Blizzard loves to throw in references to their other games.

SCV: "My cousin Lester saw a zergling once!" :lol
 
F

Fragamemnon

Member
What's even better is when a BC dies it sometimes goes "It's a Trap!".

harfang.bubeo btw on bnet. Playing terran because I hate myself. :lol
 
A

autobzooty

Member
all these stupid quotes are reminding me why i find blizzard kind of annoying

but you don't see me not buying their game on day one, no sir
 
I

Ice Monkey

Member
Fragamemnon said:
What's even better is when a BC dies it sometimes goes "It's a Trap!".

harfang.bubeo btw on bnet. Playing terran because I hate myself. :lol
Click to expand...

im actually gonna upload a vid where you can hear that a few times :)

it sucks though because its a ffa that i dominated in but the first 10 min youtube vid is just me building my base lol
 
Z

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
CcrooK said:
Question: Does SC2 share a lot of the same mechanics from War3?
Click to expand...

It features many of Warcraft 3's interface features (idle worker button, automine, queuing up structures) but adds and changes others. For example, you can now put up to 250 units in a single group.

For anybody playing the Beta, can you cycle through different unit types by using the tab key like you could in WC3?
 
A

autobzooty

Member
Ice Monkey said:
im actually gonna upload a vid where you can hear that a few times :)

it sucks though because its a ffa that i dominated in but the first 10 min youtube vid is just me building my base lol
Click to expand...

are you uploading your actual SC2 replay files anywhere?
 
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