Flash plays Terran, not Protoss.
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//: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm |OT| Like Riding a Bike
- Thread starter Corran Horn
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Flash plays Terran, not Protoss.
Guys, I can't do ZvZ... =( I need help! I'm at 29% versus zerg, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. It's like a forced cheese match up. I try to ling/bling/muta and I just suck at it I guess. How the hell do you get gas, pool, queen, baneling nest, AND a hatch? I HATE IT SO MUCH.
First two matches in gold were ZvZ, back to back on the same map! Someone please tell me how to do this match up. Also, it's so bullshit that there is no variation in this match up. That has to be broken right? Remember, I'm new, so I don't really know how it usually goes, but doesn't that mean there's a balance issue? Crying about balance is really not something I want to do, and I know if I executed the build correctly I would do better... but the sheer lack of options in the match up is concerning isn't it? And every Zerg I face also says they hate it too. Or is there some secret strategy that I don't know about? Maybe next time I'll just go mass queen, broodlord. ABLKAHDBKLAJLKAJDFLKAHDf I'M RANTING! damnit.
Here's the games:
http://drop.sc/323967
http://drop.sc/323968
Someone just want to be my ZvZ practice partner and kick my ass with ling/bling/muta repeatedly until I "get it"?
First two matches in gold were ZvZ, back to back on the same map! Someone please tell me how to do this match up. Also, it's so bullshit that there is no variation in this match up. That has to be broken right? Remember, I'm new, so I don't really know how it usually goes, but doesn't that mean there's a balance issue? Crying about balance is really not something I want to do, and I know if I executed the build correctly I would do better... but the sheer lack of options in the match up is concerning isn't it? And every Zerg I face also says they hate it too. Or is there some secret strategy that I don't know about? Maybe next time I'll just go mass queen, broodlord. ABLKAHDBKLAJLKAJDFLKAHDf I'M RANTING! damnit.
Here's the games:
http://drop.sc/323967
http://drop.sc/323968
Someone just want to be my ZvZ practice partner and kick my ass with ling/bling/muta repeatedly until I "get it"?
Typical composition for both players in a ZvZ is ling/bane/muta. Saying this is unbalanced makes absolutely no sense at all because this is a mirror match; both players have the same tools and options and this is how things have balanced out since the infestor nerf and muta buff.
For the first match:
- It took you approximately 40 seconds to put drones in gas once the extractor completed, which is bad unless you're going for a gasless opening because speedlings or banelings, especially, are very important to get asap.
- He started his Hatchery right as yours finished. This is an obvious sign of incoming aggression and you were not prepared at all so you laid down a desperation spine crawler which was obviously ineffective.
- Lair at the 5:37 mark is really early. You didn't even have a second queen at the natural before you started it (don't know why, it's pretty typical to always make a queen asap for your main and expansions for the injects).
- You lose because the early damage put him at a significant drone lead for too long so he could afford more mutas faster than you could.
Basically, you need an actual build and not building stuff randomly, because it's pretty chaotic. And it's really apparent how inefficient you're playing without a build because your resources were floating really high right from the start. I suggest going vs. a very easy AI and practicing this one until you get the timings down perfectly.
No one commented on my nuke. T_T
Praise it you guys! lol
Anyways looking to get into Diamond before the season ends. Also gonna change my Hotkeys since that seems to screw me over sometimes.
I lost vs that toss in the gif because I moved by accident to another part of the map and dropped mules lol. I should post the replay.
The replay
The guy was pretty cool as well.
You should nuke everywhere, including all workers.
EscapingJail
Member
So I've been playing on EU a bit. 10-0 right now been playing Masters since game 6.
Anyways I just played an Hour and a half PvZ with every mineral on the map mined out and all that good stuff.
I'm really liking the Tempest + Oracle combo to force Zerg to do something. Protoss doesn't have to over commit. Take note there is lots of turtling by both parties.
http://drop.sc/323984
P.S. this game got me diamond on EU lol
Anyways I just played an Hour and a half PvZ with every mineral on the map mined out and all that good stuff.
I'm really liking the Tempest + Oracle combo to force Zerg to do something. Protoss doesn't have to over commit. Take note there is lots of turtling by both parties.
http://drop.sc/323984
P.S. this game got me diamond on EU lol
EscapingJail
Member
So here's two games against the most annoying/semi bm player I've ever played. I couldn't help but laugh the second game though. I lost once to his all-in which was fair enough, I wasn't expecting it, but we got matched up again and well, I won late game, but until that point was hilarious.
First game
http://drop.sc/323841
Second game
http://drop.sc/323839
He tried the old "pause game and type has left the game" trick, which hasn't worked on me once, but apparently 1 out of 10 times it works everytime whatever that means. I couldn't stop laughing when he said that
Watched the second game, fun stuff.
somehow managed to double post instead of edit lol, my bad.
Crimsonlink
Member
LOL Dat resource difference.
Surprisingly I'm really lucky with nukes and get quite a few off. It always seems to be up against Protoss as well lol.
EscapingJail
Member
Ya, I've come to the conclusion if they have mass spores, I'm never going to attack the Zerg. I'm just going to poke at them for eternity with tempest, until they either die(Like this game), or just simply attack me and lose because they don't have spore support.
I don't mean unbalanced in the sense that his units are better then my units, I mean unbalanced as in this one build/style of play is just vastly superior to any other in this match up... then that doesn't seem like it would be an okay thing game balance wise, or maybe that's just a typical thing that happens in the meta and I'll just have to learn how to deal.
For example, in any other match up, including the other mirror matches, you can make a strategy based on like: "If he does X, I'll do Y. If he does Y, I'll do A". In ZvZ it's like "If he does X, I'm gonna go ling/bling/muta. If he does Y, I'm gonna go ling/bling/muta. If he does ling/bling/muta, I'm gonna do ling/bling/muta." If it's better then every other strategy in the match up then there's something wrong with the balance of the match up, right? I mean unless it just hasn't been figured out yet, which is very possible. But for right now it's just super frustrating.
I don't enjoy that style of play, I wish I could do something else in the match up, but I guess I'm just gonna have to learn the ling/bling/muta build and hope my opponent screws up more then I do.
EscapingJail
Member
There are some timings you can hit before muta, and of course the meta will change.
In reality you should be very happy with what you have now though(because you can macro safely), I still shiver at the thought of WoL PvP.
and by macro I mean actually expand.
Praise it you guys! lol
Anyways looking to get into Diamond before the season ends. Also gonna change my Hotkeys since that seems to screw me over sometimes.
I lost vs that toss in the gif because I moved by accident to another part of the map and dropped mules lol. I should post the replay.
The replay
The guy was pretty cool as well.
Meant to comment earlier. That nuke was boss, man. You're in Gold, right? I'm hoping to get into Gold in the next month or so.
So I think I've decided to say "Fuck it". I'm not gonna do ling/bling/muta in ZvZ. Even if I loose every one, I'm gonna find another way! I know I'm not playing any pros, and I know that I can beat a gold level zerg that's using the muta strategy. I just gotta figure it out.
2 base, turtle up with spores and queens straight to 3/3 ultralisk....
need to figure out how to survive the early ling attacks.
2 base, turtle up with spores and queens straight to 3/3 ultralisk....
need to figure out how to survive the early ling attacks.
Crimsonlink
Member
On smaller maps open aggressively with a 8 or 10 pool and use your ling count to keep map control is my suggestion and have your overlords placed in good locations is your best bet since you make lings based on how many he has made. Don't be afraid to use baneling bombs either as long as overlords don't see it. On bigger maps go hatch first then pool. I'm thinking of trying out Zerg on unranked.
Already trying out protoss but the timings and strategies are so different. Also its harder to scout with an observer since I'm so used to being able to scan locations lol.
Nice man, I passed Gold 2 weeks ago and haven't dropped from top Platinum yet.
I've only been to the main proleauge(yongsan) and the old gom studio, but they had a stand outside the studio where you can get all that stuff.
I really hope they begin to use the proleague version off that map. I mean I don't mind that one, but it's so hard to punish expanding as mech on it due to the severe lack of ground space and the fourth being tucked away T_T
demosthenes
Member
Yoshi, what specifically do you have (wrong with it)?
Visualante2
Member
http://www.workrave.org/ it's not worth the pain of that surgery.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
I just get this massive, massive pain in my wrists (goes all the way to the tip of my fingers) whenever I'm involved in something stressful (like a 15+ minute game of SC2).
Thanks a lot.
I'll look into this. Thanks for the link, man.
fatty
Member
I guess I wouldn't agree with that. I know ling/bling/muta is very popular, but I'm doing just fine with my roach build. My last game was where my opponent was very aggressive with ling/bling in the beginning because he saw I went with an early hatch. Spine crawlers and queens with slow lings (which are good enough on creep) helped defend until the roaches came out and he gg'd because he was too far behind economically. I can send you the replay later if you'd like, I certainly didn't handle it with ease but it was good enough to win.
With ZvZ, the most important thing is being able to scout and know what your opponent is doing and how to react (and not over react). Even with my roach build, because of the timing attack even if I am not able to win on that initial attack (let's say he has mutas), I'm still able to do enough damage to his economy where I'm able to build a hydra den and be ready for his mutas.
I guess what I'm getting at is I don't think that one strategy or unit composition is definitely superior to another one, there are ways to deal with certain situations. Let me know if you'd like to practice one on one where you or I can practice certain builds. I can take a look at your replays later on as well if you'd like.
You can open Ling/bane yourself and try to take a 3rd while shutting his down if he takes it before mutas. Then spore up, have some ling/bane/spine at your natural and 3rd to prevent ling attacks. I don't know how to play from there, since I've only ever gone muta, but I've seen suppy do well with infestors off 3rd base, maybe try to find some replays or vods of him playing the MU. At silver/gold I would imagine burrowed infestors making ITs at different bases would cause players lots of trouble.
One thing I would recommend vs muta players is to get melee and carapace upgrades before lair. It makes it a huge pain to take a 3rd before you have 10+ mutas, forces the muta zerg to make lots of banes, and you can just straight up bust their natural some times if they are too greedy.
Yes please send me replays. I'd love to do roach/hydra it's my favorite comp. hard macro roach hydra with spores is probably still really good at my level.
I think swarm hosts are too slow against lings. At that point the muta player shouldn't really be using banelings.
What's the point of swarmhost in that composition? Muta/ling/bane crushes roach/hydra because lings tank roach shots while banes get hits on the hydra, then mutas clean up. Swarmhosts would help block the banelings, but you'll be using up gas that could be going to more hydras.
Treemonkeys
Member
I'd like to see someone pull it off against a high level player, but I doubt it. Ling/bling/muta is too fast, seems like you would just get counter attacked constantly and out expanded and if you split your army l/b/m will roll over smaller groups of roach/hydra/swarm host.
What if instead of roaches (or swarm host) you had ultras?
I think you need infestors if you have roach/hydra vs ling/bane/muta
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Need to watch this! What's it about?
Husky casting what I feel has to be the bottom of the barrel in player skill matches.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
I thought LifesAGlitch did that already?
That's me! It's actually pretty educational for a dabbler like me but it's awesome to see that people are actually worse than me at the same time.
demosthenes
Member
The last Protoss player didn't seem that bad (he kept his money low) it's just he only built Zealots lol
I have to say, I have really been enjoying the WCS qualifiers. A lot of games, lot of fun music in between games on the ESL stream, just great to have on in background all the time. Save for the stream troubles yesterday, its been pretty good and it seems really wide open for people trying to get through.
Ouch. Was only demoted once from master to diamond for a similar loss streak.
So that's how Void Rays look when they blow into pieces, huh.
Visualante2
Member
Anyone play 2 vs 2 Europe? Playing randoms can be kinda hit and miss.
Even I'm gold league?
I wonder if it would work in gold. Could go roach /hydra into ultra / hydra. It would be awesome to have 4 or 5 roaches and 2 queens when he shows up with his first set of lings. Skip ling speed and bnest for roaches? How fast can someone get out mutas? My plan would just be to have more stuff and kill him faster, but the early ling attacks make it really hard.
Someone (EJ?) mentioned an early roach all in timing, does any know where I can find that build order?
Well if it gets late enough then yes I think you need infestors if you're going to stick with a roach/hydra build. Early though I think you can overwhelm him with a timing and win then. *shrug
BlanketFort
Member
So, I just took the plunge into the mechanical keyboard world.
Call it peer pressure from the progamer/nerd baller community; however, I began to become aware of how much pressure I had to push to get my old keyboard to actually register a keystroke. (First nerd-world problem, right? "I have to push my key all the way down? Psh!")
I did a fair amount of research on the subject courtesy an awesome link a friend of mine shared with me on the subject of mechanical keyboards - http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mechanical-keyboard-guide
DEFINITELY worth the read if you are at all interested.
For the curious amongst you, I purchased a http://www.razerzone.com/minisite/blackwidow
I'll report back with some impressions from a high plat/low diamond player in the next few days.
Call it peer pressure from the progamer/nerd baller community; however, I began to become aware of how much pressure I had to push to get my old keyboard to actually register a keystroke. (First nerd-world problem, right? "I have to push my key all the way down? Psh!")
I did a fair amount of research on the subject courtesy an awesome link a friend of mine shared with me on the subject of mechanical keyboards - http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mechanical-keyboard-guide
DEFINITELY worth the read if you are at all interested.
For the curious amongst you, I purchased a http://www.razerzone.com/minisite/blackwidow
I'll report back with some impressions from a high plat/low diamond player in the next few days.
EscapingJail
Member
Dat high plat/low diamond jkjk
But yeah, I have a blackwidow ult and it's definitely worth the money to me.
fatty
Member
I think one of the hardest things is holding off that initial pressure against zerg while still macroing. It's something that I still struggle with a lot.
Here is one where I hold off early ling/bling pressure with slow zerglings/spines/queens until my roaches are out and he gg's because I am ahead economically.
http://drop.sc/324287
One where I go roach hydra against his ling/bling/muta.
http://drop.sc/324288
Holding of a 10 pool:
http://drop.sc/324291
6 Pool against the same guy:
http://drop.sc/324292
I will try to look out for more replays where I go against mutas, I will admit that it can be hard but if your macro is good, at gold level I think you are still good to go. More replays regarding early pressure are also at this post.