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//: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm |OT| Like Riding a Bike

T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
mbmonk said:
There was a pretty great post over at TL that talked about the how most low level players have their priorities incorrectly ordered.

To be brief I will quote the list, but reading original post will help give you the context and make it much clearer.



This list has worked to pull me out of Bronze and into Silver and I just started using this priority list so hopefully it will carry me much further.

Before reading this I was concerned about small things that didn't matter at my low level of play ( Bronze ). We will see if it helps me in the future. Finding time to play is the biggest hurdle.

I am in Silver right now.

EDIT: You will notice that the first 4 are really all related to macroing. Also having a plan/build order is also essential so that you have a direction when spending money.
Click to expand...

I find you can do anything you want and still win easily as long as you macro well all the way up til mid-high gold. At that point you'll either need really good 3 base macro (including during engagements/harass), or you're going to start needing to really think about timings, compositions, and scouting.
 
W

Woorloog

Banned
Watching the first Bronze to Masters vid: Enemy comment at 8:25 "wow, death by *bleep* rush".
Rush? Is it a rush if it is 12 minutes in-game (in game time)?

Merely spamming marines seems rather effective against a low level player. A lot of losses naturally but numbers and production seem to be beating everything else in the game. EDIT well, one game sample is no proper sample...
Of course in a proper game the enemy counters them... assuming he does have solid macro...

I won't be watching the series though, i watch his video and forget to listen what he says. And i can't just listen to it without watching the vid, for i wouldn't really hear it. Too passive. At least not in English, not my native language. Somehow i doubt i'd learn from a vid in Finnish though, if there even are any in Finnish.
Videos and talking are no ways for me to learn. Video and written explanations what's going on and why work better for me. Visual learner (and kinesthetic to lesser extent), not auditory one.

Anyway, there was something that caught my attention:
He said PvP (and ZvZ) is much more complex than TvT, something about expanding at right time... Any simple explanation/advice?
Also, need some sort guide for timings, when to build what. Just in general, especially for the first 10 minutes or so.
 
M

mbmonk

Member
thepotatoman said:
I find you can do anything you want and still win easily as long as you macro well all the way up til mid-high gold. At that point you'll either need really good 3 base macro (including during engagements/harass), or you're going to start needing to really think about timings, compositions, and scouting.
Click to expand...

Thank you. That is good to know. :)
 
K

Ketch

Member
Woorloog said:
Anyway, there was something that caught my attention:
He said PvP (and ZvZ) is much more complex than TvT, something about expanding at right time... Any simple explanation/advice?
Click to expand...

I think a simple explanation is that terran can build a command center in the safety of their main and then fly it an expansion. Simple advice would be to not even worry about it until you get a two base economy down. I'm not good by any measure, but at my level I'm winning more then I'm loosing, and I don't take a 3rd base until after my army is attacking the enemies base, and most of the time I've already won by that point. When I loose, it happens way before then, because either they did an "all in" attack that I didn't see coming or I failed to macro well and my attacking army is not what it should be.

Woorloog said:
Also, need some sort guide for timings, when to build what. Just in general, especially for the first 10 minutes or so.
Click to expand...

I depends on what race you're going to play, and if you look them up on like team liquid.net or something you'll likely get something that is crazy specific, which is probably not the best approach when you're first starting out.

I know you're not wanting to learn from a video with commentary, but if you're trying to learn terran or zerg, I think those Filter SC videos are the best way to do. Also, he does include his build orders, which he calls "bench marks" in the show comments and also overlayed in text over the videos.

For example in the comments of his third terran video:
Quick Reference Benchmarks:
50 Scv's @ 10 minutes
3:45 Natural Started
6:50 Factory Started - Take Third Gas
7:55 Starport Started - Reactor Started on Fact (or techlab for tanks/naked starport vacs)
10 Minute Push Out With 100 Food of Units
Click to expand...
 
W

Woorloog

Banned
Ketch said:
I think a simple explanation is that terran can build a command center in the safety of their main and then fly it an expansion. Simple advice would be to not even worry about it until you get a two base economy down. I'm not good by any measure, but at my level I'm winning more then I'm loosing, and I don't take a 3rd base until after my army is attacking the enemies base, and most of the time I've already won by that point. When I loose, it happens way before then, because either they did an "all in" attack that I didn't see coming or I failed to macro well and my attacking army is not what it should be.
Click to expand...
I see.
*mental note: watch out for all-ins, scout*
Ketch said:
I depends on what race you're going to play, and if you look them up on like team liquid.net or something you'll likely get something that is crazy specific, which is probably not the best approach when you're first starting out.
Click to expand...
Protoss probably. TL has nice wiki but it is a tad specific. Need something more basic, more general. Like FilterSC's bencmarks.

Ketch said:
I know you're not wanting to learn from a video with commentary, but if you're trying to learn terran or zerg, I think those Filter SC videos are the best way to do. Also, he does include his build orders, which he calls "bench marks" in the show comments and also overlayed in text over the videos.

For example in the comments of his third terran video:
Click to expand...
As i said, Protoss probably.
Watching the vids is going to be rather worthless for me though, it is not about "wanting" but that i'm not auditory learner, and he doesn't explain what's going on right now in the vid (at least no in the first vid), which makes it terribly confusing for trying to learn from what he says and what i see...
Giving context to one's actions is fine, talking about something that is kinda irrelevant to what is happening is not ok, IMO (like FilterSC talking about APM in the basics vid, i really don't need the concept to understand the game, or to learn more. As i learn, i get faster, whether i know about APM or not, this i know from experience, and this applies to all games. Besides, staring rigidly at APM as a measure of skill (which it is not) is a trap one should avoid).

His "benchmarks" are useful for sure though, and i reckon i can use them roughly for Protoss as well. Well, sort of anyway...
 
V

V_Arnold

Member
Deadman said:
The things i can remember are:

Known hackers allowed to play and progress through tournament, only being disqualified after they had got deep and knocked out many other people.

Chinese players being told they were registered when they actually weren't. Then when one managed to get an account in to the tournament he was disqualified for playing on someone else's account. He was the 2012 chinese wcs champion.

Event being cast from replays with many results being known/leaked, trying to crack down hard on anyone who revealed results - even though their own bracket website was responsible for a large number of these "leaks". Stringing the event along over many days so that old games are shown when their results have been known for a long time.

Poor seeding that led to players who are obviously very strong playing each other quite early and knocking each other down/out, while weaker players were seeded higher and therefore got further.

People still mad that demuslim wasnt invited in to tournament. Him being the only foreigner to get to the final match before qualification kind of proves he is the best of them.

The brackets they published had an error which they eventually corrected but they did not make any announcement about the change or tell the players involved what had happened, they just changed it on their website.

There are probably some more that i forget.
Click to expand...

Thanks. This sounds like failure on an epic scale.
 
W

Wunder

Member
J2d said:
Ouch.. I wonder if Idra can actually beat anyone in the EG house except for Incontrol and Lzgamer.
Click to expand...

LzGamer isn't on EG anymore.

The whole Idra thing is so sad, and makes me feel worse for Demuslim and the awkward situation he's been put in.
 
W

Woorloog

Banned
I often see name "Idra" when people talk about Starcraft eSports scenes... usually in some seemingly negative context. Is he some really bad mannered (in)famous player or what?
EDIT liquidpedia explained this satisfactorily. Very well written wiki, and comprehensive.
 
M

mbmonk

Member
Woorloog said:
Also, need some sort guide for timings, when to build what. Just in general, especially for the first 10 minutes or so.
Click to expand...

I found that using a build order that is thoroughly documented is especially helpful for new players, like myself.

FFE would definitely fit that category for Protoss in the PvZ matchup.
Liquidpedia = http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Forge_Fast_Expansion_(vs._Zerg)
PvZ Guide (*Massive work but AMAZING* ) = http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628


I learned an old WoL build first (3 Gate Sentry Expand) because it was so well documented. There was even a link at the bottom of the Liquipedia page to 2 hour video of a coaching session from InControl on this build. Plus it was simpler than trying to figure out the proper wall in for each map that the FFE requires.


Regardless, here is a thread that has some amazing resources for newer players.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255

I would suggest you read "How To Improve Efficiently at 1v1 by Cecil Sunkure" as well as any other resource that catches you eye.
 
K

Ketch

Member
Watching Spanishiwa's stream right now... never watched a pro players stream before... Watching from his POV is way different then casted games... he's really good.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
Deadman said:
ahahaha demuslim manages to get a game vs idra on ladder and idra says "youre a piece of shit" and instantly leaves.
Click to expand...

He also got up to 10K viewers today, if anything he is overtaking Idra in popularity which is well deserved. Hope he continues to perform well because he really deserves it.

Edit: Kinda crazy to compare stream viewers from individual players like Stephano, grubby and demuslim to the numbers some tournaments are getting. Kinda shows the importance of having the popular foreigners in the tournament.
 
S

sixghost

Member
Have you guys noticed a huge reduction in the number of Protoss on the ladder? I've played 1 protoss in the last week or so. It's like 75% Terrans now.
 
C

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you
Guys renting houses suck when the owner tries to sell it and has people look at house for a few hours here and there :( cant play games or anything really.
 
M

Mumei

Member
Mairu said:
Jaedong - EG - JAEDONG!
Click to expand...

Damn straight.

Ketch said:
Cool to see you getting into the game. Have you picked a race yet?

As far as scouting goes I've learned a few key things of what to look for: Are they building buildings in their base? If yes then they can't afford proxy buildings if no then OMG scout like a mofo! Are they building the thing the thing that counters my build? I always go roach so I need to know if they're going air. And finally when are they expanding? It's important know that if they ARE expanding then they probably can't afford an all in and vice versa: If they aren't expanding then they CAN afford an all in, be careful.

Most importantly don't let what you scout change your plan unless you absolutely have to.
Click to expand...

I haven't picked a race, but I played Zerg in this game. I didn't really have a plan (I know, I know); I just sort of went three hatch before pool, trundled off to see what he was doing, set up lings to see when he pushed out, defended his attack (poorly; any human could have totally destroyed me because I was hilariously unprepared due to my greed and only won due to lol computer AI decision making), and then went on the attack. My tiny attack force was easily rebuffed but by that time I was too far ahead in macro for it to matter, I think.

I had fun, though.
 
S

sixghost

Member
Mumei said:
I haven't picked a race, but I played Zerg in this game. I didn't really have a plan (I know, I know); I just sort of went three hatch before pool, trundled off to see what he was doing, set up lings to see when he pushed out, defended his attack (poorly; any human could have totally destroyed me because I was hilariously unprepared due to my greed and only won due to lol computer AI decision making), and then went on the attack. My tiny attack force was easily rebuffed but by that time I was too far ahead in macro for it to matter, I think.

I had fun, though.
Click to expand...
You already have the hunger for drones. Definitely a zerg.
 
C

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you
Ketch said:
bah, sure you can... just be like "sup, this house is really good for playing starcraft in"
Click to expand...

Eh this window in my room looks out towards the street so whenever Im on PC people can see me unless the blinds are covered. I prefer my sc2 gaming in private!
 
K

Ketch

Member
Mumei said:
I haven't picked a race, but I played Zerg in this game. I didn't really have a plan (I know, I know); I just sort of went three hatch before pool, trundled off to see what he was doing, set up lings to see when he pushed out, defended his attack (poorly; any human could have totally destroyed me because I was hilariously unprepared due to my greed and only won due to lol computer AI decision making), and then went on the attack. My tiny attack force was easily rebuffed but by that time I was too far ahead in macro for it to matter, I think.

I had fun, though.
Click to expand...

I always feel like my best games are when I focus on drones, barely hold off his harass or attack, and then proceed to crush them with my superior macro. So satisfying to spit out 20 units at once when you know they're frantically trying to build marines 3 or 4 at a time.
 
C

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you
Scott Smith ‏@SirScoots 58m
Commercial music while allowed to be played at the moment will be banned from TwitchTV streams shortly - @TobiWanDOTA My rock and roll! :(
Retweeted
Click to expand...

Oh noes...death to the kpop.


Aylinato said:
*cringe*
Click to expand...

OyymLS2.gif
 
F

Felix Lighter

Member
Who listens to twitter feeds to get free music? What a dumb move. I've actually seen a lot of people in chats ask about the music in the stream because they want to check it out. Music industry always forward thinking.
 
C

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you
Wunder said:
I'm confused, so stuff like spotify or pandora won't be allowed while streaming? Or like, you'd have to mute it?
Click to expand...

I think they will be going after partnered people mostly since they are making money off the streams. I think Pandora has something you can pay extra to use as a business for licenses but who does that lol.

Id honestly wouldnt be surprise if twitch doesnt really do much, i seem to recall them threatening about music on streams before.
 
K

Ketch

Member
Artosis said something funny - when you're playing against someone who goes random, just defend and wait for them to leave the game.
 
S

Striek

Member
I've been expecting a crackdown on illegal music streaming via Twitch for ages.

Music selection is a large part of making the best streams...best.
 
M

Mairu

Member
Striek said:
I've been expecting a crackdown on illegal music streaming via Twitch for ages.

Music selection is a large part of making the best streams...best.
Click to expand...

Meh

Can just use my own spotify instead of listening to theirs

edit: Scarlett taking an extended break is gonna be depressing if no one else pops up to champion Non-Koreans everywhere. Goodbye only NA player that is actually competitive against Koreans :[
 
K

Ketch

Member
sixghost said:
Artosis just knocked a GM terran out of grandmaster

"if you lose to artosis you get kicked out of GM"

lol
Click to expand...

that's funny.

Watching pro streams for the first time today, artosis' was the best by far. I watched some zergs, spanishiwa was fun to watch, LZ gamer was whining the whole time, and Jaedong was playing Kpop.

I wish artosis played zerg... =(


Also, I went back and played the infestor mission of the campaign on hard and totally crushed it.... I remember having to restart multiple times my first play through. I'm definetly getting better at this game, I might go back and try to beat it all on brutal.
 
S

sixghost

Member
Ketch said:
that's funny.

Watching pro streams for the first time today, artosis' was the best by far. I watched some zergs, spanishiwa was fun to watch, LZ gamer was whining the whole time, and Jaedong was playing Kpop.

I wish artosis played zerg... =(


Also, I went back and played the infestor mission of the campaign on hard and totally crushed it.... I remember having to restart multiple times my first play through. I'm definetly getting better at this game
Click to expand...

You should watch eg.suppy and blade55555 if you want to watch some zerg players that explain what they are doing like Artosis does.

blade's youtube channel is awesome too
https://www.youtube.com/user/blade55555
 
C

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you
Striek said:
I've been expecting a crackdown on illegal music streaming via Twitch for ages.

Music selection is a large part of making the best streams...best.
Click to expand...

eh if someone is listening to music (any type) Im more likely to turn the stream off. That and webcams of dudes faces -.-
 
S

SamuraiX-

Member
EscapingJail said:
He moved to cali to live with his GF

Also go buy hots.
Click to expand...

werd

Probably not gonna get a chance to play again until summer... trying to graduate and senioritis is coming down on me with all its wrath and fury. :O

I wonder when that $20 price drop will hit. Hopefully don't have to wait until Black Friday...
 
K

Ketch

Member
Don't think this has been posted yet:

Dear StarCraft Fans:

I want to personally apologize to you on behalf of all of us at MLG for the mistakes we made with the WCS America Qualifier this weekend.

As many of you know, we have been working on a fast timeline with Blizzard and all of our partners to make the WCS a success and bring you as much competitive StarCraft content as possible. Unfortunately we made some errors that rippled throughout the weekend.

First, the demand to enter the WCS Qualifier was much higher than we had anticipated which resulted in many excellent players not getting a chance to enter. We featured a 512-player, double elimination, best of three bracket to maximize individual players opportunity for success, however that impacted the scale of the tournament. Additionally, we experienced strains on both our online product and administrative staffing that should have been avoided. Finally, we admittedly made a poor decision to try to hold back some results of the tournament in order to make spoiler-free viewing a possibility. We will not do that again for any online qualifier.

We have immediately opened the final bracket to the public which can be found here.

We have also created a feedback email address specifically for WCS America. Going forward, please email your feedback, suggestions and complaints to WCSAMfeedback@mlg.tv. Our staff and I will monitor every email and aim to incorporate constructive feedback into our future plans.

Again, I want to apologize personally and on behalf of everyone at MLG, to the StarCraft community, the players and to Blizzard for failing to uphold the level of tournament execution we pride ourselves on.

I assure you that we are making every effort to rectify this for all future WCS America operations.



Sincerely,

Sundance DiGiovanni
CEO
Major League Gaming
Click to expand...
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
Mairu said:
edit: Scarlett taking an extended break is gonna be depressing if no one else pops up to champion Non-Koreans everywhere. Goodbye only NA player that is actually competitive against Koreans :[
Click to expand...

Damn, the NA scene just got a whole lot worse.

Felix Lighter said:
Who listens to twitter feeds to get free music? What a dumb move. I've actually seen a lot of people in chats ask about the music in the stream because they want to check it out. Music industry always forward thinking.
Click to expand...

I shouldn't say this but it's kinda a god send to me. Every streamer pretty much has horrible taste in music and plays it way to loud over the game sounds/music.

Ketch said:
Don't think this has been posted yet:
Click to expand...

I may actually care when the problems i have are actually rectified.
 
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