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[f0rk]

Possible balance changes for test map

Because Spore Crawlers being great against Mutalisks isn't making enough of a dent apparently, they have to be amazing!

 

[Striek]

Boosting speed of oracle is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If you want it to get more use make it less of a gimmick unit. Nerf the shit out of its DPS, increase its health. Its already fast enough to escape anything except mutas and phoenixes.

 

[Aylinato]

Boosting speed of oracle is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If you want it to get more use make it less of a gimmick unit. Nerf the shit out of its DPS, increase its health. Its already fast enough to escape anything except mutas and phoenixes.

Spore-eh but I see why

Oracle-no need for faster its almost cheese

Burrow-roaches b cool

 

[Woorloog]

Wait, how is Oracle used at the moment? Just fly in the enemy base, kill workes, retreat?
What's the point of the unit anyway, other than economy raider. Its abilities seem kinda weak otherwise, temporary detection or temporary enemy unit vision (well, naturally good to know when enemy is on the move but...)

 

[Aylinato]

Wait, how is Oracle used at the moment? Just fly in the enemy base, kill workes, retreat?
What's the point of the unit anyway, other than economy raider. Its abilities seem kinda weak otherwise, temporary detection or temporary enemy unit vision (well, naturally good to know when enemy is on the move but...)

Yes but oracle dies very fast so the know where ye enemy army is not a good trade

 

[Yoshichan]

They need to take back the extra powerful medivac upgrade!

 

[Woorloog]

Yes but oracle dies very fast so the know where ye enemy army is not a good trade

Ah. So, Blizzard thinks speed buff would make "reveal-and-run" better.
Health buff would probably make the unit more potent in direct combat, which is why you suggest lower DPS along with that, right?

Is it just me or is it silly the Oracle seemingly overlaps with the Observer, while being seemingly (i'm not really qualified to have an opinion here...) somewhat worse at observing?

They need to take back the extra powerful medivac upgrade!

Why was the boost added? Never heard that Medivacs needed more speed. Was it to make quick drops easier?
EDIT or is this something where no one knows what Blizzard is thinking?

 

[Wunder]

Is it just me or is it silly the Oracle seemingly overlaps with the Observer, while being somewhat worse at observing?

The Oracle provides many roles, it's a weird mix between a phoenix and an observer. The need for envision stems from the fact that if you open stargate and your opponent just *happens* to get a cloaked unit out, you are almost instantly dead. It is required so that Stargate tech is viable in any meaningful situation. It isn't necessarily 'worse' at observing, because it is quite a bit faster than an observer, and the revelation ability doesn't require the oracle to actually be there, which means that unlike an observer, you have 100% chance to see the units/buildings you hit for that allotted amount of time. Contrast that to an observer, whereby in a high level game, the Terran (most likely) can find the shimmer of the observer and scan and kill it, thus losing you that unit and the vision it provides.

IWhy was the boost added? Never heard that Medivacs needed more speed. Was it to make quick drops easier?
EDIT or is this something where no one knows what Blizzard is thinking?

The Medivac boost was meant to provide the ability to drop in the late game with more success. Drops were still quite effective against Zerg in the late game in Wings of Liberty, but against Protoss and Terran, one can either have enough gateways free to warp in zealots with charge straight away, or have blink ready to snipe the medivac. Against Terran, he might have enough spare minerals to make a large turret line and while with enough turrets you can still stop drops, the boost increases the survivability of a medivac considerably.

 

[Woorloog]

The Oracle provides many roles, it's a weird mix between a phoenix and an observer. The need for envision stems from the fact that if you open stargate and your opponent just *happens* to get a cloaked unit out, you are almost instantly dead. It is required so that Stargate tech is viable in any meaningful situation. It isn't necessarily 'worse' at observing, because it is quite a bit faster than an observer, and the revelation ability doesn't require the oracle to actually be there, which means that unlike an observer, you have 100% chance to see the units/buildings you hit for that allotted amount of time. Contrast that to an observer, whereby in a high level game, the Terran (most likely) can find the shimmer of the observer and scan and kill it, thus losing you that unit and the vision it provides.

Ah, so dual purpose: Give Stargate tech path access to without having to tech robot as well, and give options for scouting for Protoss in general, with different weaknesses and strengths. And just plain more options.

The Medivac boost was meant to provide the ability to drop in the late game with more success. Drops were still quite effective against Zerg in the late game in Wings of Liberty, but against Protoss and Terran, one can either have enough gateways free to warp in zealots with charge straight away, or have blink ready to snipe the medivac. Against Terran, he might have enough spare minerals to make a large turret line and while with enough turrets you can still stop drops, the boost increases the survivability of a medivac considerably.

I see. But, naturally, the thing has unintended consequences...

 

[sixghost]

I don't think Blizzard should be making such specific balance changes, like adding a damage boost against mutas for spores. Instead they should address the bigger problem zerg has right now, which is terrible anti air units. Something should be done to the corrupter or infestor.

 

[Ketch]

I don't think Blizzard should be making such specific balance changes, like adding a damage boost against mutas for spores. Instead they should address the bigger problem zerg has right now, which is terrible anti air units. Something should be done to the corrupter or infestor.

I agree with this, such odd choices for them. The spore buff makes it seem like they want to change as little as possible, but if that's their mindset the oracle change makes no sense.

There has got to be a better solution to the ZvZ metagame, but I'd much rather them make slow small changes then big drastic ones.

 

[mackaveli]

I agree with this, such odd choices for them. The spore buff makes it seem like they want to change as little as possible, but if that's their mindset the oracle change makes no sense.

There has got to be a better solution to the ZvZ metagame, but I'd much rather them make slow small changes then big drastic ones.

Bring back scourge?

 

[f0rk]

Spore Crawlers are already really good against Mutalisks, it won't be anything to stop muta/ling have the best map control in ZvZ. Unless you want people to spore up their 3rds before they put the hatch down?

You can't expect them to create a new unit though. Especially when it would need a Spire anyway

 

[Mairu]

Don't forget to follow the conversation for WCS EU/AM in the official thread! I'm really excited, at work but probably should be able to catch some of it (starts in ~35 minutes)

 

[Striek]

I see. But, naturally, the thing has unintended consequences...

Chiefly the nexus cannon making PvT sterile as fuck in the early game.

Terrans aggressive options to punish greed amount to widow mine drops and...widow mine drops.

But the cannon is very necessary in the mid-late game for protoss to defend against medivacs.

I don't think Blizzard should be making such specific balance changes, like adding a damage boost against mutas for spores. Instead they should address the bigger problem zerg has right now, which is terrible anti air units. Something should be done to the corrupter or infestor.

Its hard to balance tbh. Traditional, poorly controlled AA has always been bad against maxed terran/toss, except chain fungal was easy and devestating against everything with 3/3 ITs mixed in. We're only beginning to see infestors mixed with swarm hosts might be effective against air/templar protoss armies...without too many tempests.

Tempests are dumb units in that properly controlled they have no counter, either direct or via micro/positioning, that doesn't involve potentially blasting through the entire protoss army to get to them.

 

[Woorloog]

Fuck, its been nearly 6 years since SC2 announcement, and that means i can't find the first gameplay vid from Youtube, in single part and high definition.
Well, except this one result titled "Protoss gameplay" but it has too many compression artifacts...
Maybe Blizzard's site has it still as downloadble file... EDIT nope? FFS... my old PC might have the file still BUT the motherboard or HDD is busted in way that causes the computer to shut down before it can even start Windows properly.

EDIT Ah, great, i think i found the file from Fileplanet.
EDIT well, crap, the quality of the downloaded file is even worse than the youtube vid...

 

[Ketch]

Spore Crawlers are already really good against Mutalisks, it won't be anything to stop muta/ling have the best map control in ZvZ. Unless you want people to spore up their 3rds before they put the hatch down?

You can't expect them to create a new unit though. Especially when it would need a Spire anyway

It's a hard thing to fix, What changes would you make?


What if hydralisks weren't light units? or if banelings were a spawning pool upgrade instead of a separate building? Do you think they could force a change in the early game to allow for more options in the mid game? Or do you think the change has to involve the mutalisk in order for it to make a difference?

 

[Woorloog]

Oh, man, how things have changed from the original gameplay video.
Battlecruisers fired a single laser just like in OG SC.
Photon Cannons were telescoping.
Immortal guns looked good (now they look too gun-like).
Mothership Black Hole and Planetcracker were so awesome.
Nydus Worm was somewhat smaller back then.

 

[thepotatoman]

I just wish the corrupter had some sort of role outside of the response to the rarely created battlecruisers. Maybe make those cheaper (and broodlords more expensive as a result)? Or additional armor maybe?

 

[Woorloog]

I just wish the corrupter had some sort of role outside of the response to the rarely created battlecruisers. Maybe make those cheaper (and broodlords more expensive as a result)? Or additional armor maybe?

I wish the unit still had this cool infestation ability.
It was awesome when Zerg were supposed to have more infestation abilities...

 

[Son1x]

Conn.Si Arena Season 2 Group A is live, streamed by yours truly http://www.twitch.tv/connsi

info: http://www.conn.si/lexiconn/index.php?title=Conn.Si_Arena_Season_2

 

[Ketch]

I just wish the corrupter had some sort of role outside of the response to the rarely created battlecruisers. Maybe make those cheaper (and broodlords more expensive as a result)? Or additional armor maybe?

corruptors are good against other stuff: phoenix, colossus, vikings, void rays, broodlords

 

[Treemonkeys]

Can anyone comment on what hardware is required to maintain 50-60fps in 1v1 200 vs 200 situations while running high to ultra graphics? I'm really tired of playing on low and still having it drop to 30 fps sometimes, my rig is an old q6600 with 4gb ram and a 1gb gtx 560.

Thinking about getting an Alienware x51, I'd like to be able to play on ultra without breaking the bank if possible.

 

[EscapingJail]

Can anyone comment on what hardware is required to maintain 50-60fps in 1v1 200 vs 200 situations while running high to ultra graphics? I'm really tired of playing on low and still having it drop to 30 fps sometimes, my rig is an old q6600 with 4gb ram and a 1gb gtx 560.

Thinking about getting an Alienware x51, I'd like to be able to play on ultra without breaking the bank if possible.

StarCraft is heavily CPU dependent. I average 100fps in those situations with an. i7-2600k OC'ed to 4.4Ghz and a 560ti.

 

[EscapingJail]

whoops somehow managed to double post.

 

[Treemonkeys]

So the i7-3770 should be okay then? Not sure how it would compare without overclocking, but at least you're well past my target fps.

 

[EscapingJail]

So the i7-3770 should be okay then? Not sure how it would compare without overclocking, but at least you're well past my target fps.

Yep you should be fine.

 

[suko_32]

I saw one of those cannon rush replays from EscapingJail's WCS qualifier games and noticed how it only took 1 pylon each to block off each side on the bottom left spawn. However this only applies to the MLG version of Daybreak map. So weird.

 

[EscapingJail]

I saw one of those cannon rush replays from EscapingJail's WCS qualifier games and noticed how it only took 1 pylon each to block off each side on the bottom left spawn. However this only applies to the MLG version of Daybreak map. So weird.

The ladder version is exactly the same. you just have to put the pylons perfectly otherwise there will be a gap.

 

[suko_32]

The ladder version is exactly the same. you just have to put the pylons perfectly otherwise there will be a gap.

That's weird, I'll have to take a look at it again later. Thanks.

Edit: Got back from work, and obviously you're right. I see what I was doing wrong now.

 

[Woorloog]

Well well. Fuck.
First game vs human in ages (placement match number 1), fucked it up completly.
I was anxious, my hands are shaking badly still, fucked up my macro completly (partly due to my hands shaking, partly because i panicked), economy to total halt by my mistakes, not because my enemy got zerglings in my base, indeed i did more damage by halting my probes than what the zerglings did (which amounted to some shield damage). Forgot wall-in... Forgot scouting, not that it would've done much good without wall-in...

I gave up because i knew i couldn't play in such state. I could have recouped something i guess, if i were thinking calmly.

Why am i anxious? Because i fucking prepared too much. I should have just started vs humans and then started thinking more.
Now i need to calm down... which is something i've never been good at.
EDIT fuck adrenaline. Fuck anxiety.

 

[EscapingJail]

Well well. Fuck.
First game vs human in ages (placement match number 1), fucked it up completly.
I was anxious, my hands are shaking badly still, fucked up my macro completly (partly due to my hands shaking, partly because i panicked), economy to total halt by my mistakes, not because my enemy got zerglings in my base. Forgot wall-in... Forgot scouting, not that it would've done much good without wall-in...

Why am i anxious? Because i fucking prepared too much. I should have just started vs humans and then started thinking more.
Now i need to calm down... which is something i've never been good at.

Bro, seriously it's just one game. Think of it this way, you learn way more from a loss than a win. It's much easier to see and understand your faults when you're losing. Best thing to do in my opinion right now for you it to just grind out a set number of games and dont think about the win or the loss.

Make your goal "I'm going to play 5 ladder games straight today." You'll progress much faster doing it that way than beating yourself up over the loss.

 

[Woorloog]

Bro, seriously it's just one game. Think of it this way, you learn way more from a loss than a win. It's much easier to see and understand your faults when you're losing. Best thing to do in my opinion right now for you it to just grind out a set number of games and dont think about the win or the loss.

Make your goal "I'm going to play 5 ladder games straight today." You'll progress much faster doing it that way than beating yourself up over the loss.

I'm not worrying about the loss, it just a game (in both senses). I'm fucking worrying about me being fucking anxious. Heart racing, hands shaking. Can barely write.
And i can't make a breathing exercise to work to calm down (deep breaths, hold breath thing).

Duh, maybe i'll just start another match, hope concentrating on that is possible and calms me...

 

[Mumei]

I'm not worrying about the loss, it just a game (in both senses). I'm fucking worrying about me being fucking anxious. Heart racing, hands shaking. Can barely write.
And i can't make a breathing exercise to work to calm down (deep breaths, hold breath thing).

Duh, maybe i'll just start another match, hope concentrating on that is possible and calms me...

I have the same issue. I'm not nearly as bad as I was, like, ten years ago but I still do get flustered really easily. I even get flustered playing the computer, where the stakes are even lower. I get the shaky hands and misclicks (you can actually see it in the 2v2 we played; I spent about 15 seconds trying unsuccessfully to place a Pylon where I want it to go) and the "Wait, what's this "plan" you speak of?"

Fun times. Playing more does help, though.

 

[Woorloog]

Second game, this one went better. Started calm.
PvP. My enemy wasn't particularly good, he didn't expand until later than me, as he teched straight to Void Rays... which i countered by making Stalkers, and more Stalkers (panicked a bit, didn't think of teching more). What he did? No idea, probably microed his Voids. Forgot to check statistics after match, is there any way to re-open that window? EDIT found it, match history.
He harassed my base (i had some 8 Warpgates) but weakened his Void force, and then i attacked. Didn't take long for him to GG.
And now my hands are shaking again.

EDIT i see, i had twice his APM (120vs65) (EDIT2 well, doesn't tell much in this game actually, i spammed more commands likely?). Hmm, reckon i'll watch the replay, see what he did (wrong).

 

[suko_32]

You are gaining more confidence as each game goes by no? Good luck!

Edit: You're right, what I meant was is the anxiety is slowly shedding away with each game?

 

[Woorloog]

You are gaining more confidence as each game goes by no? Good luck!

Confidence has very little to do with this, i know what i can do (edit duh, not thinking clearly. I'm confident in my abilities but i'm not blind to my flaws). If i didn't get this frigging anxiety... very new thing in me, never used to get this before...

And now my chest hurts as well. Ouch.

 

[thepotatoman]

corruptors are good against other stuff: phoenix, colossus, vikings, void rays, broodlords

They suck against void rays which is the biggest argument against them of all. Mutas or Vipers work about as good if not better against all of those things.

I actually love when people go phoenix against my muta. It's so much easier to juke my mutas into fighting range where they are better than pheonix, than it is for them to stay exactly out of range.

 

[V_Arnold]

A few corruptor + lots of mutas is how I deal with P's who mass phoenixes.

 

[thepotatoman]

A few corruptor + lots of mutas is how I deal with P's who mass phoenixes.

At the cost of nerfing the overall speed of your muta force.

 

[Treemonkeys]

At the cost of nerfing the overall speed of your muta force.

Yeah but expecting to out-juke phoenixes is only going to work against bad players.

 

[Corran Horn]

Another new artosis show called Meta about to start
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Artosis

So basically State of the Game? without JP lol

 

[zargle]

Another new artosis show called Meta about to start
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Artosis

So basically State of the Game? without JP lol

Over/Under 2.5 episodes - place your wagers now

 

[Vaporak]

Blizzard shouldn't listen to the ZvZ whiners, Ling/Bling/Muta vs Ling/Bling/Muta is an infinitely better matchup than the old roach/infestor wars; both in terms of differentiating skilled players and in terms of viewer interest.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Blizzard shouldn't listen to the ZvZ whiners, Ling/Bling/Muta vs Ling/Bling/Muta is an infinitely better matchup than the old roach/infestor wars; both in terms of differentiating skilled players and in terms of viewer interest.

overall though, zerg is still boring to watch if it plays out the same way every time.

 

[Ketch]

Another new artosis show called Meta about to start
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Artosis

So basically State of the Game? without JP lol

Watching it now, I'm okay with more state of the game.... did he say anything about what the show is supposed to be?

 

[Ecto311]

Another new artosis show called Meta about to start
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Artosis

So basically State of the Game? without JP lol

sounds good to me I don't like JP anyway

 

[Crimsonlink]

Had a good ladder day for the most part. I'm embarrassed to say that I let a Zerg get away with Droning and spreading creep that he rolled over me. But it was a nice learning experience.

Also Ultras, Vipers and lings are ridiculously good, you play Zerg that should be your composition. Swarm Hosts suck so bad against Terran. Had the 2 Zergs that went SH die to me quite easily.

 

[Ketch]

Had a good ladder day for the most part. I'm embarrassed to say that I let a Zerg get away with Droning and spreading creep that he rolled over me. But it was a nice learning experience.

Also Ultras, Vipers and lings are ridiculously good, you play Zerg that should be your composition. Swarm Hosts suck so bad against Terran. Had the 2 Zergs that went SH die to me quite easily.

I love me some ultras (contemplating upgrading to CE to get the skin), but I've literally never used a viper outside of that one campaign evo mission where they're introduced... them and infestors, feel like they'd be too micro oriented for me.

 

[Crimsonlink]

I love me some ultras (contemplating upgrading to CE to get the skin), but I've literally never used a viper outside of that one campaign evo mission where they're introduced... them and infestors, feel like they'd be too micro oriented for me.

Blinding cloud with Ultras is like Psi Storm, if the Terran stays in the cloud then they die.