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[AdventureRacing]

Some decent changes. It's still far from perfect but it's better than what we had this year. I think the region locking is a bit silly. Most of those Koreans are too good to be knocked out of EU or NA and will pretty much be there as long as they want. Kind of dampens the effect a region lock is supposed to have.

Here's hoping to a good year next year.

Edit: It seems like the total prize money has stayed about the same. There is more just for the GSL (a good thing) and more money being filtered into WCS AM and EU instead of the global finals makes it more accessible to foreigners. The main thing for me though is the fixed schedule. Lets hope this lets more non WCS tournaments get involved in the scene. The loss of successful tournaments like iron squid has really hurt the scene overall imo.

 

[Yoshichan]

http://imgur.com/a/NcjJC#TWhk2Lx

Nice balance, BLIZZ!

 

[SamuraiX-]

OMG just got WAY more hyped for IEM Singapore!

BOMBER!!!

Mvp and DRG are back too!

Squirtle! Dream! EffOrt! :O :O :O

 

[Zen]

http://imgur.com/a/NcjJC#TWhk2Lx

Nice balance, BLIZZ!

Not to mention how completely messed up regional ladders are now due to rampant smurfing. It's brutal playing on NA or EU late.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Here's a good TeamLiquid article about why the WCS 2014 partial region lock doesn't actually mean shit.

 

[Yoshichan]

Not too mention how completely messed up regional ladders are now due to rampant smurfing. It's brutal playing on NA or EU late.

Yeah, and that decay bullshit.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Not to mention how completely messed up regional ladders are now due to rampant smurfing. It's brutal playing on NA or EU late.

Yeah, and that decay bullshit.

What has caused smurfing to increase? I certainly haven't notice that. Ladder decay on the other hand is bullshit and has screwed up the ladder. Everyone is playing way below the league they should be in and it causes you to be facing people either way above or below what you should be. It also takes way too long to get your MMR back to where it should be, if you go on a 30-0 run or better maybe the game should consider jumping your MMR up a bit.

It's weird because blizzard can't decide how they want the ladder. They add things like not being able to see your losses (rectified now) and not being able to be demoted to encourage casuals. Then they add things like ladder decay which punishes you for being inactive at all and causes frustration because you're always playing outside of your level.

Here's a good TeamLiquid article about why the WCS 2014 partial region lock doesn't actually mean shit.

It's pretty basic really and it's nothing we all didn't realise as soon as it was announced. Even so it will slowly weed out some of the Koreans. It doesn't fix the problem which kinda sucks but at least it's a step forward.

 

[unknownstranger]

OMG just got WAY more hyped for IEM Singapore!

BOMBER!!!

Mvp and DRG are back too!

Squirtle! Dream! EffOrt! :O :O :O

Group C ultimate group of death.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Crimsonlink getting a Tweet response from Nathanias. bawse

Also:

How you gonna make a collection of the best players in the world sit on the floor like that? C'mon, Red Bull.

 

[unknownstranger]

I feel bad not knowing who half of them are. I recognize Scarlett, Bomber, MC, I think Soulkey on the left and I think Flash in front of MC.

 

[SamuraiX-]

I feel bad not knowing who half of them are. I recognize Scarlett, Bomber, MC, I think Soulkey on the left and I think Flash in front of MC.

Sitting across from Bomber is PartinG (who looks more like aLive in this picture lol) and to Bomber's right are HyuN (took out the red dye in his hair for some reason) and sOs (2013 WCS Global champion). They're all competing in Red Bull Battlegrounds this weekend.

 

[unknownstranger]

Sitting across from Bomber is PartinG (who looks more like aLive in this picture lol) and to Bomber's right are HyuN (took out the red dye in his hair for some reason) and sOs (2013 WCS Global champion). They're all competing in Red Bull Battlegrounds this weekend.

I swear PartinG looks like Soulkey (or Leenock, I get my Zerg confused X_X). Didn't think that was Flash but he looks a little similar.

 

[Boken]

Crimsonlink getting a Tweet response from Nathanias. bawse

Also:

How you gonna make a collection of the best players in the world sit on the floor like that? C'mon, Red Bull.

#esports

but still look like a bunch of kids

 

[Crimsonlink]

Crimsonlink getting a Tweet response from Nathanias. bawse

Also:

How you gonna make a collection of the best players in the world sit on the floor like that? C'mon, Red Bull.

Yeah it was nice getting a reply. He replied to me again a few times as well.

Here are the VODS for CJ vs EG

Nathanias did some nice casting. Loved his Skyhigh vs JYP cast.

Here is a link to set up for Redbull with Polt winning Season 2 NA but Bomber winning Season 2 Finals lol.
I miss Husky

Speaking of Husky, check out his latest Bronze League Heroes. He is almost at 50!

BTW guys don't miss GSTL finals tonight in about 4 hours. AxiomAcer vs Azubu. Some crazy match ups too with Ryung vs Symbol to start us off.

 

[Zen]

MC needs to spend some of the 400k on diet courses, he's starting to get unhealthy.

What has caused smurfing to increase? I certainly haven't notice that. Ladder decay on the other hand is bullshit and has screwed up the ladder. Everyone is playing way below the league they should be in and it causes you to be facing people either way above or below what you should be. It also takes way too long to get your MMR back to where it should be, if you go on a 30-0 run or better maybe the game should consider jumping your MMR up a bit.

We might just be attributing the same symptoms to different things. I can tell you that as a high diamond that's in and out of masters so much I might as well be fucking the place, I routinely encounter plats and even golds that are in no way shape or form of that level.

Most of them aren't shy to tell you that they're actually High EU masters if you ask them, and I've had more than a few show me there Masters Korean account after a game. It probably also helps them that MMR decay is in and they don't play on their smurfs all that often, I can only imagine the experience that proper golds and plats have against them.

As for why smurfing has been increasing? I'd say that the combination of MMR decay and Smurfing is creating an unbalanced laddering experience which leads to more people Smurfing out of frustration and just wanting some easy wins. NA at least is infested with smurfs, especially later at night.

It's weird because blizzard can't decide how they want the ladder. They add things like not being able to see your losses (rectified now) and not being able to be demoted to encourage casuals. Then they add things like ladder decay which punishes you for being inactive at all and causes frustration because you're always playing outside of your level.

I guess the theory is that the more casual players will be inactive more frequently so they'll have a better time when they log on and get a few wins. It does seem like getting your MMR back up is too hard, or the rate of decay is too harsh.

 

[Corran Horn]

starting?

 

[SamuraiX-]

Red Bull did an AMA with the eight participants at Battlegrounds.

And it turned up some amazing results:

You can make one change in the game right now what would it be. Would like an answer from at least one of each race.

"Delete Oracle." - Bomber
"Delete Void Ray." - Scarlett
"I would give protoss lift (like terran). Only production buildings though." - MC
"I want to be able to chrono boost units, like the Immortal to shoot and move faster." - Parting
"I would delete the mothership core." - HyuN
"I would delete the corruptor and add scourge!" - Snute
"I would add shield battery. I want to recover Immortal shield." - sOs
"I would delete protoss." - Golden

For anyone, Do you have any advice for the aspiring pro gamer?

"Please don't try it at home." - MC
"It's important not to get stressed." - sOs
"You should never give up, and always work hard." - Parting
"Welcome to hell." - Hyun
"Choose protoss!" - Golden
"Yes, play protoss." - Bomber

everyone: what do u think is the reason that sc2 didnt have a bonjwa yet?

"Because of the patches and DK (David Kim) is Bonjwa" - Bomber

It makes me feel like some of these guys would fit right in on GAF. lol

 

[BlazeBreak]

http://imgur.com/a/NcjJC#TWhk2Lx

Nice balance, BLIZZ!

Those numbers on their own seem like they might be skewed - especially since it's a different point range for each different example. The Global stats do paint a picture though, since there's definitely that lean towards Protoss players. But following the link back to the original source; win ratios are even (across everything, and not just Grandmaster). And I think that's the most important thing.

I won't discount that maybe some things need to be done, also taking into account...

Not to mention how completely messed up regional ladders are now due to rampant smurfing. It's brutal playing on NA or EU late.

That. I first started playing SC2 a few months ago. And generally I always found ladder matches to be super even. I was amazed by how consistently competitive games were compared to FPS games and fighters and whatever else I normally play online. But in recent weeks, for some reason it just feels like that's all gone.

 

[Corran Horn]

Zerg imba. Terran too

 

[Zen]

Those numbers on their own seem like they might be skewed - especially since it's a different point range for each different example. The Global stats do paint a picture though, since there's definitely that lean towards Protoss players. But following the link back to the original source; win ratios are even (across everything, and not just Grandmaster). And I think that's the most important thing.

Doesn't the system actively try and promote 50/50 win rates? Or am I over tired?

That. I first started playing SC2 a few months ago. And generally I always found ladder matches to be super even. I was amazed by how consistently competitive games were compared to FPS games and fighters and whatever else I normally play online. But in recent weeks, for some reason it just feels like that's all gone.

There (at least for me) was always a period of unevenness after a ladder reset, but it not only seems to have been getting longer and longer over time, it's degree of unevenness is getting worse. This season especially has gone completely off the rails. I imagine that at some point in mid-high masters and above this issue is almost completely invisible, but ladder probably feels like a complete crap shoot elsewhere.

 

[BlazeBreak]

Doesn't the system actively try and promote 50/50 win rates? Or am I over tired?

They do actively try and promote 50/50 wins. It's effectively the standard to determine if matchmaking is competitive. The majority of players should have win rates of about 50%.

There (at least for me) was always a period of unevenness after a ladder reset, but it not only seems to have been getting longer and longer over time, it's degree of unevenness is getting worse. This season especially has gone completely off the rails. I imagine that at some point in mid-high masters and above this issue is almost completely invisible, but ladder probably feels like a complete crap shoot elsewhere.

I found it started before the recent reset, even. Me and my friend were 2v2 Silver. We typically found every game we played to be within a competitive realm. Even in games that we lost pretty handedly, we could consider how the game went and/or take a look at the replay and whatever else and find an explanation - that we took a really bad engagement or we had shitty scouting or bad map control. Sometimes our opponents were ranked in Gold and we could basically feel good about the loss because we played well against them and, if we had done a thing or two differently, we may have been able to win.

But there came a point where that just got thrown out the window, and suddenly we were constantly being thrown up against opponents who would just steamroll us with armies around the 10 minute mark that were just simply far beyond our skill level to be able to produce so quickly. It became a trend. Some of the games were clearly instances of smurfing because opponents were playing on fresh accounts with racist/offensive names. But it felt like matchmaking had broken down because we were constantly getting matches where it felt like we had no chance of winning.


EDIT:

I should probably clarify that, in the case of Starcraft, the concept of 50% win rates means two different things.

1. Matchmaking Effectiveness: This is the notion that most players' win ratios should be about 50% in ladder. This means that games are always competitive and you're matched with players of your same relative skill level.

2. Game Balance: This is the notion that all three races are balanced. Win rates for PvT, PvZ, and TvZ should all be as close to 50% as possible.

The data that got posted earlier suggests that a larger percentage of top players play Protoss. The implication that one can make from that is "so many of the best players play Protoss, so they must be OP". However, if you go to the source of the data and look at the actual win rates, you see that each race is arguably balanced, in that Protoss players don't actually win more games.

This Chart is what Blizzard put up in the Blizzcon recap post. They consider the races to be balanced.

 

[Zen]

Yeah that was pre HotS wasn't it? I'd like to see an update. When you look at global and regional rankings, the higher up you go the more toss representation there is/ I think it points to a few things; one, Toss is probably the best race in a Bo1 due to the insane early game timings and also that toss probably yields most effectiveness in the ladder format once you reach a certain skill level.

Though with tosses starting to dominate group play and Bo3's lately, who knows. I think that because toss is so BO and mind game oriented in a tournament setting, their refinement lagged behind the other races. Maybe they're catching up in that area now.

I love this game.

It makes me feel like some of these guys would fit right in on GAF. lol

You can't win PD! Even pros hate toss! XD

 

[SamuraiX-]

Battle Grounds NYC starts in less than 6 hours!

OT: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=721274

 

[SamuraiX-]

If you guys want some matches to pass the downtime of Battle Grounds, the Dailymotion Cup Group D is looking pretty sexy.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xz0qur

 

[-COOLIO-]

pvt is such luck, ok you see the double gas now is it going to be oracles? a void ray push? dts? blink stalkers?

i dunno, scout every part of the map for intel. ok i luckly spotted a twilight council, is it dts or blink though? bleh.

 

[Crimsonlink]

pvt is such luck, ok you see the double gas now is it going to be oracles? a void ray push? dts? blink stalkers?

i dunno, scout every part of the map for intel. ok i luckly spotted a twilight council, is it dts or blink though? bleh.

The only counter I found for that crap is to send 3 marines to the main of the toss and try to get a read on how many Stalkers they have. If they have less than 3 then its gonna be Oracles or VR.

 

[-COOLIO-]

The only counter I found for that crap is to send 3 marines to the main of the toss and try to get a read on how many Stalkers they have. If they have less than 3 then its gonna be Oracles or VR.

that's a good idea actually, thanks!

(i'll use a reaper though)

 

[Crimsonlink]

that's a good idea actually, thanks!

(i'll use a reaper though)

The problem is that the reaper dies a bit too fast to MSC and Stalkers. With 3 Marines you have about 140 health to go through and can scout all around the base. Just don't attack anything. Another problem is that if you send the 3 Marines then Oracles can roll you but thats why 2 rax is kinda standard.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Hmm Scarlett considering going part time next year. Naniwa quickly becoming the last bastion of defense for foreign fans.

 

[Zen]

Scarlett never seems to have reached her potential, it always feels like we barely see her at all despite the fact that she's easily as good as many of the better Koreans. Has her team mismanaged her or something?

The problem is that the reaper dies a bit too fast to MSC and Stalkers. With 3 Marines you have about 140 health to go through and can scout all around the base. Just don't attack anything. Another problem is that if you send the 3 Marines then Oracles can roll you but thats why 2 rax is kinda standard.

Can you elaborate? You mean 2 rax expand?! Or just 2 rax before teching.

 

[Crimsonlink]

Scarlett never seems to have reached her potential, it always feels like we barely see her at all despite the fact that she's easily as good as many of the better Koreans. Has her team mismanaged her or something?




Can you elaborate? You mean 2 rax expand?! Or just 2 rax before teching.

Ok here is how it works on those big maps such as Frost. You make a 1 rax reaper and then the build diverges from there. BTW you need to send an SCV right after your first rax is finished and as the Reaper is building to scout the correct way on the big maps.

1.SCV scouts for a early expo around 2:30-3mins. See expo, harass with Reaper while making a Reactor and a CC with a delayed bunker in the front. Make sure to keep the Reaper alive for a late scout into the main to see the tech route or throw down a scan if you lose the reaper. Play your standard TvP with drops and see if you can't kill him before 3 bases. Watch out for Blink play or the 2 base Colossus allin

2. SCV/Reaper scouts for a expo, sees no expo. Now here it all depends on the gas you scout. If you see more than 100 gas mined in each one, skip the expo and build 2 rax. Start churning out marines first while making sure to have 2 tech labs for stim and CS.
Check and MAKE SURE about the 3rd pylon. Don't get it confused with the 4th pylon. If its not in base, look at gas and if they have a MSC. 1 Stalker and a MSC, probably proxy oracle with both gases taken. Check Chrono energy and whats its being used on. On the Cyber core means 4 gate, Blink all in or 3 gate robo push. On Nexus means economy unless its for the MSC. If you don't see energy or a ton of it, then its going all to a proxy/saving for a big push.

More than 2 stalker usually means blink allin. But be careful as it might be Void Ray Stalker allin. It depends on you scouting the SG really or seeing the unit about 3 minute before they hit your base to give time to build the proper units.

Its kinda luck based sadly.

Of course you can go CC first on big maps and get away with it but you need to put down 2 rax ASAP after your first one finishes and scout early with SCV to check for a Zealot/Stalker/MSC push.

If you are confident that it is Oracles, then make the Ebay and a Turret or make bunker in mineral line.

If you want to tech then make a factory and get the WM.

 

[Yoshichan]

I guess it's that time again!

 

[fanboi]

I guess it's that time again!

Same as your mother just said.

 

[kasane]

I always want to cc first but its bad in the lower leagues

 

[-COOLIO-]

Hmm Scarlett considering going part time next year. Naniwa quickly becoming the last bastion of defense for foreign fans.

starcraft needs more money, hence it needs more fans, hence it needs to go f2p and add lan. do it blizz!

 

[Corran Horn]

Hence blizzard won't do it

 

[AdventureRacing]

Anyone watching avilos stream? This TvT is just amazing. He might be a douche but his stream is pretty fun.

starcraft needs more money, hence it needs more fans, hence it needs to go f2p and add lan. do it blizz!

I think blizzard have made it clear that from this point on they aren't going to be making big changes like that to the game. They're pretty much going to be tinkering around with small things and that's it.

There are enough quality players that SC2 will continue to be a lot of fun to watch for a few years to come and it's popularity seems to have stopped dropping. Still it would have been nice to see them trying to make some bigger moves to push it forward.

 

[danielcw]

starcraft needs more money, hence it needs more fans, hence it needs to go f2p and add lan. do it blizz!

How much money could Blizzard lose by going f2p?
How much money would they gain?

And which one woul be more?

 

[Boken]

theyd definitely gain more money by going f2p

multiplayer games have high player engagement rates and thus keep people coming back and spending on your microtransactions

 

[Aaron]

If they went free to play and had pay for cosmetic unit skins and badges, while selling the campaigns separately, I think they would make more money than they are right now, and expand their userbase, but it won't have that big of an impact on the pro scene. There's already plenty of players trying to break in, but too few tournaments and spots.

 

[Boken]

what if you have too few tournbaments cos theyre not that popular?

 

[AdventureRacing]

I can't see them making less. F2P for MP games like this seems to work quite well. They could sell the singleplayer campaign separately as well. I know myself and my group of friends would all spend a lot more on the game if it went that route.

It seems blizzard is now starting to move more towards this model with both hearthstone and heroes of the storm so hopefully it happens at some point.

If they went free to play and had pay for cosmetic unit skins and badges, while selling the campaigns separately, I think they would make more money than they are right now, and expand their userbase, but it won't have that big of an impact on the pro scene. There's already plenty of players trying to break in, but too few tournaments and spots.

Having more people playing the game is always good for the pro scene. It's not as if the foreign scene is chock full of talent there is plenty of room for more quality players.

That plus more people playing the game in general = more people watching.

what if you have too few tournbaments cos theyre not that popular?

Actually considering the popularity of SC2 compared to LoL and DOTA2 it's actually kind of amazing how many SC2 tournaments there are. There is definitely room for more though and having more people playing/watching would help encourage that.

 

[Aaron]

what if you have too few tournbaments cos theyre not that popular?

While that could be a cause, in this case it was the WCS system that screwed over a number of tournaments, and probably the reason MLG dropped SC2. They were getting good numbers before then, and this scheduling conflict with the Redbull series could have been avoided if the people behind WCS weren't bad at stuff.

 

[AdventureRacing]

While that could be a cause, in this case it was the WCS system that screwed over a number of tournaments, and probably the reason MLG dropped SC2. They were getting good numbers before then, and this scheduling conflict with the Redbull series could have been avoided if the people behind WCS weren't bad at stuff.

It seems like they're trying to fix that problem for next year. WCS covering less overall time with a fixed schedule known ahead of time. Hopefully there are more tournaments next year outside of WCS.

 

[SamuraiX-]

PartinG interviewed with TeamLiquid after his championship win at Battle Grounds

You showed a lot of confidence throughout the tournament. But on the inside, were you feeling the pressure of having been in a slump and not having won a tournament in nearly a very long time?

I've lived thinking that I have to take responsibility for the things I say. So, when I showed so much confidence here at Red Bull Battle Grounds, I was truly confident that I could win it. The moment the groups were drawn, I thought it was a win for sure. I felt that I would be hugely disappointed in myself if I couldn't win the championship. So I taunted the other players a lot, saying that I would win for sure.

Well, you always taunt other players.

Yes that's true, but it was more so this tournament. I had no pressure.

When you were in a slump, your weak/strong match-ups seemed pretty clear. You were good at PvT and PvP, but not so good at PvZ. Do you think you had some bracket luck this tournament?

If it was my old self, if the old PartinG won this way, then it would have been said that I won because I was lucky. But I have come back a changed player. Maybe there was some luck, but even if I met a Zerg I would have won. To prove that, I'll beat Soulkey at the upcoming WCG. If I show people that, then they'll have to say I would have won Red Bull even if I had met a Zerg.

Yeah, you weren't really able to prove your PvT or PvZ against top Korean players in this tournament. Do you think you could beat them?

I think that I'm in the top three of Koreans right now, of all races combined. I'm not afraid of anyone I face, and no matter where we meet I will beat them.

You weren't able to use your famous Soul Train this tournament. Do you regret that? You even tweeted that you would use it for sure!

In a corner of my heart, I'm really sad about it. I wanted to do a Soul Train ceremony with the Thomas the Tank Engine, but there were no Zergs to perform it against.

When Scarlett was winning 2 - 0 against sOs, I thought "oh, could she really make it to the finals?" I had only been thinking of PvP builds up to then, but suddenly I changed my map strategizing to think about PvZ. Honestly, I was planning to Soul Train three times in a row. I wanted to show the fans that I could still use the Soul Train in a changed way, so I'm sorry to my fans that I wasn't able to show that to them at Red Bull. Next year, in 2014, there will be opportunities. So then, I will show my Soul Train to countless Zergs.

MC basically threatened you so you weren't able to perform a ceremony against him. If you had faced a different player, what would you have done?

I felt that my life was being threatened, so I couldn't perform a ceremony. If I had won, I wanted to throw some cookies on the ground, because you know, MC likes to eat. So I wanted to step on them and crush them while he was looking. It's a bit iffy to say he 'stopped' me from doing it, but in any case it's unfortunate I couldn't perform it, it would have been fun.

You came to a foreign tournament for the first time in a while. With Proleague starting in December, you'll have less opportunities to compete in them again. Isn't that kind of disappointing?

I made a promise to myself. When I first joined KeSPA, I said I would win championships in both individual and team tournaments. But I haven't been able to keep that promise yet. I will win the Proleague for my team, with my strength. I'll need the strength of my teammates as well, but I want to help as the main force. Also, I really want to win the GSL, the individual tournament.

Don't you feel like you might be a little overconfident ahead of WCG? Last year, you almost lost to a certain Canadian player...

The group stage changed to be a best of three this year. So, I don't think anyone's going to get lucky this year. As long as I don't play with one hand, I'm not going to lose. Honestly, I'm only thinking about Soulkey. Of course there's Sora, but honestly I think Sora is easy too. I've lost to Soulkey a lot so I can't call him easy. If I can beat him, then I can prove that 'PartinG is back.'

Your thoughts going into 2014?

This year, I devalued my name a lot because of my PvZ. I want to tell myself that I'm sorry. And I want to ask myself "why couldn't you do any better?" In 2014, I'll show you a PartinG that has fixed all his PvZ problems. I'll win Korean tournaments, not just international tournaments, so I hope my fans keep cheering for me.

Any last comments?

A big thanks to my team SK Telecom T1, and to my mother. I have a noona (older sister) in New York that I'm very close with, she heard that I was coming to New York and showed me around the city yesterday. I think I was able to win because of that...

Uh, not because you practiced hard?

Honestly, I didn't practice for this tournament. My noona helped me with my mental state, even since I was in Korea. I won't be able to see her anymore, but I'm very thankful to her. Love you! I'll only win from now, so don't worry about me.

This guy is awesome. Hope he's really back. Looking forward to seeing him destroy everyone at WCG.

 

[Crimsonlink]

Can someone link me to the VODs of the finals of Redbull? I missed Parting vs sOs.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Can someone link me to the VODs of the finals of Redbull? I missed Parting vs sOs.

http://www.twitch.tv/redbullesports/b/482634868?t=4h28m

The fact that Oracles move 1.5 times as fast as Banshees is so beyond nonsensical. Quite possibly the dumbest buff Blizzard has ever done.

 

[Syf]

If I had won, I wanted to throw some cookies on the ground, because you know, MC likes to eat.

lol!

 

[Corran Horn]

http://www.twitch.tv/redbullesports/b/482634868?t=4h28m

The fact that Oracles move 1.5 times as fast as Banshees is so beyond nonsensical. Quite possibly the dumbest buff Blizzard has ever done.

Yep. They need to move faster.

 

[Yoshichan]

When is 2.1 out?