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//: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm |OT| Like Riding a Bike

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AdventureRacing

Member
Personally i think they should just undo the hellbat and widow mine nerfs. I know lots of people disagree but i liked TvT with hellbats and i liked TvZ with the mines. If no one uses tanks than do something to the tanks to make them useful.
 
C

Crimsonlink

Member
AdventureRacing said:
Personally i think they should just undo the hellbat and widow mine nerfs. I know lots of people disagree but i liked TvT with hellbats and i liked TvZ with the mines. If no one uses tanks than do something to the tanks to make them useful.
Click to expand...

That nerf was fine. It was the drop nerf that was stupid. 2 Hellbats per Medivacs is still stupid since they do no where near the damage they did before without BF.

The WM nerf could use a revert back to the way they were but I would prefer non auto firing. That would make microing mines possible. That and if the cooldown was reduced form 40 to 30. Its ridiculous that WM have such a high cool down for the little splash damage that they do which effect friendly as well as enemies. Doing 125 +35 vs shields is good vs 1 opponent but dat 40 second cooldown is too much even with 40 splash to the closest units.
 
Yoshichan

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Nice troll

No one plays terran
 
S

SamuraiX-

Member
IEM Cologne - Asian Final Qualifier

b5bB0ra.png


Stream: ESL TV
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
Crimsonlink said:
:( I would be very sad and disappointed.

GO MARU!

Edit: WTF Maru lost to Curious... KID WORK ON YOUR TvZ!
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Got knocked out by cure as well. Might have to work on his TvT too :p.

Crimsonlink said:
That nerf was fine. It was the drop nerf that was stupid. 2 Hellbats per Medivacs is still stupid since they do no where near the damage they did before without BF.
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My only problem was that they gave so little time for players to adapt. It was one of the fastest nerfs to a unit since the beta. What annoys me is we have seen way more OP things and matchups become way more stale whilst blizz did nothing but with hellbats they jumped straight to the nerfhammer.

I hadn't even thought about the medivac thing, doesn't make much sense. So 4 hellions go in a medivac but as soon as they transform it becomes 2? Seems unnecessary.

Crimsonlink said:
The WM nerf could use a revert back to the way they were but I would prefer non auto firing. That would make microing mines possible. That and if the cooldown was reduced form 40 to 30. Its ridiculous that WM have such a high cool down for the little splash damage that they do which effect friendly as well as enemies. Doing 125 +35 vs shields is good vs 1 opponent but dat 40 second cooldown is too much even with 40 splash to the closest units.
Click to expand...

TvZ was exactly 50% before the nerf and mines were super exciting to watch imo. The nerf wasn't needed. If they wanted to make the matchup more interesting they should have been buffing mech (mainly tanks) and perhaps giving zerg more tools if necessary to deal with it.

I like the idea of non auto fire but will players below say masters be able to keep up with it? Seems awfully hard to use. Surely there is a middle ground somewhere. Perhaps the ability to toggle it on and off?

Agree on the recharge. Either remove the nerf or reduce the cooldown, both are just overkill.
 
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Aaron

Member
Doesn't address any of the real problems of the matchup. Terran NEED late game units against protoss. None of their tier 3 units are viable.
 
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SamuraiX-

Member
Useless changes. Still allows Protoss to throw down double time warp and 10 seconds off PO duration is worthless.

I really wish they would make Mass Recall and/or PO cost 150 energy. It's completely retarded that Protoss can get out of jail free with a recall and then defend any kind of early counter push with a PO. Not to mention double POs on your main and natural at the same time is ridiculous.
 
S

Syf

Banned
He does specifically mention wanting to make mech better in TvP. The changes are steps in the right direction, at least (not sure about the Hydra buff though), but I agree at first glance they don't seem to address the real issues.

Looks like TLO thinks so too.

Lui4oA3.png
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Z

Zen

Banned
I like all the changes though I wish PO was a little more expensive overall to prevent just spamming recall and then defending with PO within a very small window. These feel like changes that are more to ease the issue speople are having than to address fundamental balance issues, but I suppose you can address those with a lot of small changes to timings.

Still doesn't change that over 2/3rd of the SCII population hates how Protoss is designed.

Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50
Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100
Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in
Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25


Due to Late game PvZ
A Passive Tempest ability that allows them to deal 2-3 times more damage vs. Structures
Click to expand...

EMP has been so nerfed for so long that giving ghosts 1 to start (meaning you can just get cloak sooner) seems like a good idea.

Really if Blizzard wants to make mech more viable TvP, they should just give tanks a passive bonus to shields when seiged. Sure our air versus carriers kind of sucks but making our ground more cost efficient (and able to establish positions easier, would ease to carrier deathball that can quickly spiral out of control.

EDIT: Hm, my terran bros don't seem happy. I suppose tempest has rendered Battlecruiser ghost obsolete (granted MMA was the only one who could pull it off). Still I wonder if it could work with a few ravens mixed in for PDD, given that tempest have such a slow fire rate.
 
A

Aaron

Member
If I could ask David Kim two things it would be:
How does terran win against protoss in the early game?
How does terran win against protoss in the late game?

Because if the protoss doesn't make several mistakes (we've seen lately that one major mistake isn't enough), terran can only win in the mid game, usually with a marauder rush before storm. Can't beat protoss early. They've got photon overcharge, time warp, forcefields, and recall. They barely need units. Can't win in the late game because storm and collossi murder everything, or if you're daring enough to try mech, apparently carriers will obliterate you. Making vikings against collossi is such a bad deal for terran. They're a single use unit and you need too many of them, especially when stalkers will wipe them out. The counter to templar are ghosts, but with emp so weak the protoss need to make a bad engagment for you to hit, and then it's only a drain. It doesn't murder the templar and all the units around it like storm does. While all of terran's tier 3 units are garbage in this matchup.
 
K

kasane

Member
Aaron said:
If I could ask David Kim two things it would be:
How does terran win against protoss in the early game?
How does terran win against protoss in the late game?

Because if the protoss doesn't make several mistakes (we've seen lately that one major mistake isn't enough), terran can only win in the mid game, usually with a marauder rush before storm. Can't beat protoss early. They've got photon overcharge, time warp, forcefields, and recall. They barely need units. Can't win in the late game because storm and collossi murder everything, or if you're daring enough to try mech, apparently carriers will obliterate you. Making vikings against collossi is such a bad deal for terran. They're a single use unit and you need too many of them, especially when stalkers will wipe them out. The counter to templar are ghosts, but with emp so weak the protoss need to make a bad engagment for you to hit, and then it's only a drain. It doesn't murder the templar and all the units around it like storm does.
Click to expand...

by nuking their entire base :p
 
Z

Zen

Banned
Its confirmed: All Terrans who advanced from this season's GSL Code A did not have to face a Protoss to do so. X|
 
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Syf

Banned
Wait, I read that Tempest change wrong.. they really want to double or even triple its damage vs structures? I don't get the reasoning there.
 
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unknownstranger

Member
I like the Hydralisk change but being able to mass Hydra/Roach easier while getting Corruptors for Colossi might be OP. The Tempest change is stupid with that big of buff. They could use a damage buff vs non massive but only like 5-10 and maybe a movement speed increase.

I'm for Siege Tanks getting a buff vs shields. Siege Tanks are fine right now vs Zerg but suck against every comp vs Protoss. I'm ok with a Widow Mine CD reduction but only by about 5 seconds.
 
Z

Zen

Banned
haha, wow, I read that as +2-3 damage to structures. i guess that doesn't make much sense either.They did say that the tempest change was very early in consideration.
 
K

kasane

Member
starcraft gets boring when my opponents intentionally prolong the game, they know they;re dead but they just do shenanigans and make the game drag longer. fok
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
Biskie said:
He does specifically mention wanting to make mech better in TvP. The changes are steps in the right direction, at least (not sure about the Hydra buff though), but I agree at first glance they don't seem to address the real issues.

Looks like TLO thinks so too.
Click to expand...

Completely agree with TLO and we've had this discussion on this forum many times. These sort of balance changes really do very little, all they do is tinker with a few stats to try and deal with VERY specific situations. Not only that but sometimes it's hard to figure out what the hell they were thinking when they announce these things.

Really gives you no faith in their ability to balance the game and shows they have no intention of actually addressing the problems people are having.
 
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unknownstranger

Member
The main problem with PvZ late game is Protoss has no way to save units that are Abducted, while Terran can throw down a few Point Defense Drones and usually save whatever got abducted as long as it can run. Not sure what Blizz can do to fix it.
 
K

kasane

Member
unknownstranger said:
The main problem with PvZ late game is Protoss has no way to save units that are Abducted, while Terran can throw down a few Point Defense Drones and usually save whatever got abducted as long as it can run. Not sure what Blizz can do to fix it.
Click to expand...

abducting colossus worked out real well for jaedong. /s
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
My biggest problem is that blizzard just don't seem to be responding to the huge amount of feedback they're getting. There is so much detailed feedback out there available to them and they ignore it. It's really frustrating.

Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50

What is this supposed to change? That 10 second reduction won't fix anything in TvP which is where the real issues lie. The problem is that early game TvP PO is used to allow protoss to get out of any sort of early harassment. Terran walks across the map with a 8 marines and 2 maruaders BAM PO don't even have to worry about an engagement. There is no micro involved and there is no engagement of the 2 players on both side.

It also allows protoss to play super greedy which is starting to be exploited more. In code A a lot of protoss are going double forge straight into twilight tech or quick collosus and the terran struggle to harass at all because of PO.

As far as i know in TvP it's main purpose was to help deal with speedivacs because otherwise protoss would struggle. As is it's mainly just used early game to stop any pressure whatsoever.

Also FUCK PvP, if nerfing PO is enough to break the matchup than the matchup needs fixing. If that is really why they won't nerf PO that's just bullshit to me.

Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100

The usual tiny tinkering to a units cost or build time. Can't see this having too much of an impact really. The situations they're talking about you only need 1 to get the job done and protoss will still have it. I mean i think this change will have a positive impact so i won't complain too much.

Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in

Cool. Ghosts should be used more. Still a fairly tiny change like all the ones they make but i can at least get behind the reasoning for it.

Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25

I've already said it but i kinda hate these simple changes like just reducing the price on units small amounts. I'm not quite sure what they want to get from this change. What in particular is this supposed to fix in PvZ?

I guess i'll wait and see what happens with this one.

A Passive Tempest ability that allows them to deal 2-3 times more damage vs. Structures (We’re not 100% set on the actual value yet.)

Hate hate hate this change. It just looks like it's going to be broken. I'm really against making changes like this to counter a very specific style of unit (like the spore change against mutas).

Of all the changes i dislike this one the most.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
Bo said:
How large is SC2's balance team? Wouldn't surprise me if it was a skeleton crew, they seem swamped.
Click to expand...

How big does it need to be? Most of the leg work is done by the community (balance test maps). Actually that's one of the problems they don't engage the community. Things like the lack of map variety, they have a community willing to take care of this for them (and do a much better job as well for the record) but they don't take advantage of it.

Starbow seems to be able to bring in quick bug fixes and balance changes and as far as i know there really aren't many people involved there.
 
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Sibylus

Banned
AdventureRacing said:
How big does it need to be? Most of the leg work is done by the community (balance test maps). Actually that's one of the problems they don't engage the community. Things like the lack of map variety, they have a community willing to take care of this for them (and do a much better job as well for the record) but they don't take advantage of it.

Starbow seems to be able to bring in quick bug fixes and balance changes and as far as i know there really aren't many people involved there.
Click to expand...
Well, big enough to weigh more than a handful of changes at any one time, but for all I know there are other factors constraining that.

And I'd say Starbow has the advantage of not being constrained to the corporate bureau model of doing things, they can pump out crazy shit constantly without worrying about a stock price or the next expansion or whathaveyou.
 
Yoshichan

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Only David asshole Kim
 
U

unknownstranger

Member
AdventureRacing said:
Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25

I've already said it but i kinda hate these simple changes like just reducing the price on units small amounts. I'm not quite sure what they want to get from this change. What in particular is this supposed to fix in PvZ?

I guess i'll wait and see what happens with this one.
Click to expand...

It helps against Immortal all-ins and lets you get Corruptors out quicker to deal with early Colossi. In ZvZ it makes it so half the matches don't end up don't end up being RoachvsRoach the whole time.
 
C

Crimsonlink

Member
I don't like the thought of mass Hydras with mass Mutas. But we do have tanks to deal with Hydras. Mutas are still a big problem in the match and has almost completely killed bio play unless you stop mass Mutas or kill them by luck.
 
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unknownstranger

Member
Crimsonlink said:
I don't like the thought of mass Hydras with mass Mutas. But we do have tanks to deal with Hydras. Mutas are still a big problem in the match and has almost completely killed bio play unless you stop mass Mutas or kill them by luck.
Click to expand...

If Zerg is going Muta's AND Hydralisks then he probably doesn't have the gas or the minerals for Zergling/Baneling.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
The thing that sucks is that it takes months for them to come up with any changes and when they do they're tiny changes which often aren't whats needed. Then you have to go through the testing process.

I just can't help but feel like they should get the community involved. Perhaps not with making actual changes but to come up with potential ideas to use on test maps. The current set-up means that any change happens at a gradual pace and usually they won't try anything that isn't a miniscule change.

unknownstranger said:
It helps against Immortal all-ins and lets you get Corruptors out quicker to deal with early Colossi. In ZvZ it makes it so half the matches don't end up don't end up being RoachvsRoach the whole time.
Click to expand...

Immortal all ins really aren't much of a problem anymore but i guess i'm ok with them being a bit weaker. I do wonder how strong this will make early hydra pushes.

Personally i don't care if hydras get used in ZvZ. Is roach/hydra vs roach/hydra really anymore exciting than just roach? It's barely even a change at all.

Edit: I hate changes made for mirror matchups that impact on other matchups. They should always come last, both players are on equal footing so balance there is always less important. Obviously if there are massive issues ruining a mirror matchup you should address it but things like refusing to nerf PO because it impacts PvP is just silly to me.
 
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