-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT4| Everyone Else Would Beat Catspajamas
- Thread starter Corran Horn
- Start date
TheThunder
Member
I would be fine if they offered a single free stream with shit quality that only viewed important games with non the bells, whistles and other crap... you know, like GSL.
I guess they wanted to take a gamble and see if it works with this. Personally I hope it fails hard so that 2013 won't come where every single event organizer is charging $20-$50 just to watch.
I guess they wanted to take a gamble and see if it works with this. Personally I hope it fails hard so that 2013 won't come where every single event organizer is charging $20-$50 just to watch.
Man up.
The 32 players are being flown to new york and will be playing live. There wont be a crowd there but i assume we will see more than just 2 talking heads. Its not like 2011s full mlg events though.
So, outside of actually complaining about it, does anyone have an alternate business plan that MLG can use?
How are they supposed to come up with funding for a tournament where they fly the best players from all over the world to one location to fight it out? Look at the player list I posted. The Koreans listed there are all Code S or Code S material at the very least.
Of course I would like to have free HD streams or free content in general but I can understand that they would need to charge for it. They're trying to create a self-sustaining business model here. Maybe this isn't the optimal one and if it fails hopefully they'll keep experimenting and come up with something else.
The immediate response of getting out your e-pitchforks and demanding stuff for free is pretty silly though.
How are they supposed to come up with funding for a tournament where they fly the best players from all over the world to one location to fight it out? Look at the player list I posted. The Koreans listed there are all Code S or Code S material at the very least.
Of course I would like to have free HD streams or free content in general but I can understand that they would need to charge for it. They're trying to create a self-sustaining business model here. Maybe this isn't the optimal one and if it fails hopefully they'll keep experimenting and come up with something else.
The immediate response of getting out your e-pitchforks and demanding stuff for free is pretty silly though.
studio games, no audience.
the financial success of mlg or esports is not my concern, all that matters as a consumer is that better stuff is free, there;s no shortage of free content and i dont need mlg to see these players [or even to pay mlg to see these games], if i paid for the arena, it would be more charity than business model.
I mean I can understand charging $20 for some SC2 only MLG kind of thing but if it's really just all online I can't justify that kind of thing. Which makes me look like a jackass in my previous statement but oh well.
So, basically, it'll be like the early rounds of every GSL.
TheThunder
Member
As they said in the press release, they're doing exactly that for all of their regular events, but this a special tournament. You'll still be able to get the VODs a week later if you don't want to pay anything, so I don't really see the problem.
You're basically asking them to eat the costs for hosting tens of thousands of people to watch a free stream without them getting anything from then while having to foot a travel bill that's in excess of $100K. Yes, their sponsors help them out with this but, as a business, they have to make money. I don't think $20 for an event like this is excessive in the least.
I'm assuming that, like any reasonable business, they've taken a good, hard look at the numbers and the free/premium stream model doesn't work for this event. I just think that people automatically categorizing this as a money grab or a waste of money are being a bit shortsighted.
Wow MLG, damn. Thats hilariously expensive, hope it falls flat on its face. I'd at least like to see them provide forecasts to justify the charge, this is how much we'll spend, this is how much sponsorship we've acquired, this is how many subscriptions we expect to sell. Won't ever happen, but unless it did I will just default to this is a push to bring excessive profitability to "e-sports".
And happy birthday Keikaku
And happy birthday Keikaku
PhoenixDark
Banned
So today I have
-lost to a bronze player 4 gate
-lost to a gold zerg 2 base muta
-almost lost to a one base Colosus rush on Arid Plateau
-lost to a bronze player 4 gate
-lost to a gold zerg 2 base muta
-almost lost to a one base Colosus rush on Arid Plateau
I might be going to a Barcraft to catch the finals, but I'm not paying $20 for what is essentially the group stage of MLG Winter.
MLG Winter Arena has prizes but it's really just for seeding into MLG Winter next month.
GSL's model seems the best, free low quality stream and paid HQ stream.
MLG Winter Arena has prizes but it's really just for seeding into MLG Winter next month.
GSL's model seems the best, free low quality stream and paid HQ stream.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Sounds like MLG didn't have as good a 2011 as advertised. Somewhere IPL's folks are laughing
Trickster
Member
replays of the protoss games please
That was pretty obvious already, if your company had a good year the CEO doesn't tweet 'lean and mean in 2012' while cutting loads of staff.
TheThunder
Member
But every single event has thousands in costs and yet they still offer free/premium combo, I know flaying all those players is expensive but this is a smaller event done in a studio with no audience or renting a giant convention center, so I think in the end it equals itself out if not be cheaper to run the NYC event tbh. Also when does it stop being for "special" events only and start being for every single event MLG run ?
I'll be honest not watching this event will not be a big deal for me (even though I would've if they still offered a free stream), it's essentially half great players half shit players that I wouldn't waste my free time watching them let alone paying to watch them, but I'm more concerned that this PPV model becomes the standard for every single event MLG run or otherwise, and that's why I hope it fails so the likes of IPL, Dreamhack... etc don't follow suit.
The Lamonster
Member
PhoenixDark
Banned
Their attendance and stream numbers were certainly impressive but at the end of the day no one in esports is making a profit. MLG relies on venture capitol, their business model isn't growing. And unlike IPL, they don't have a major company officially backing them with bags of money.
While bringing in scores of Korean players increases viewership and makes tournaments "matter," it also takes even more money out of the pot. I can certainly understand MLG trying to make money with this particular event as they're flying a shit ton of Korean and European players here, providing hotels for them (as well as staff), and of course the prize money (which some nerds still have the gall to proclaim as "too little"). That is unsustainable and it's hard to see MLG sticking around unless the scene really explodes - perhaps with LoL or DOTA2, or if they can manage to get the fighting game community on board.
A better alternative would have been perhaps a $15 fee for a high quality stream plus some type of extra content, like IPL3 did. With a free, SQ stream available.
In a few years I really think the Western esports scene bubble will burst hard. Eventually we'll see the scene get big in Korea as BW players switch. Will their teams be willing to send multiple players to the US to participate in tournaments? I think we're looking at a future of dota games dominating the Western scene, Koreans beginning to focus more on Korea, and a lot of foreigner players switching to easier games
Why do you assume this? Have you seen figures?
I still think they've made the mistake of making the prize money too big, I mean they're giving away $10k to the winner, pretty sure you could make it something like $5 or $7 and these people would still come.
Also without a free stream they'll miss out on people watching a game and then wanting to upgrade.
Also without a free stream they'll miss out on people watching a game and then wanting to upgrade.
Ya I suspect the foreign SC2 scene will implode eventually. It's just too expensive and there aren't enough viewers and fans for advertising to bring in much money.
If say, 1million+ AMERICANS watched MLG, it could make money with advertisements. As it stands, they get like 150,000 people around the globe, and you don't get money from ads for people in countries that either don't speak English natively or don't sell the products being advertised.
There are probably only 80,000 Americans who watch SC2 at all, and not all of them tune in to every event. That's just not enough to support the SC2 scene once companies decide that they're done losing money.
In Korea, they had like 1million people watching the OSL finals, so ya advertisers there are quite happy to pay for those kinds of numbers since their population is only 59million, that's a huge percentage, the equivalent of middling TV show ratings on a major US network.
It would be a shame. I hope it finds some way to become sustainable and keep growing. I also hope the Korean scene keeps growing. I'll be a very sad pony the day there are no more big SC2 tournaments to watch.
If say, 1million+ AMERICANS watched MLG, it could make money with advertisements. As it stands, they get like 150,000 people around the globe, and you don't get money from ads for people in countries that either don't speak English natively or don't sell the products being advertised.
There are probably only 80,000 Americans who watch SC2 at all, and not all of them tune in to every event. That's just not enough to support the SC2 scene once companies decide that they're done losing money.
In Korea, they had like 1million people watching the OSL finals, so ya advertisers there are quite happy to pay for those kinds of numbers since their population is only 59million, that's a huge percentage, the equivalent of middling TV show ratings on a major US network.
It would be a shame. I hope it finds some way to become sustainable and keep growing. I also hope the Korean scene keeps growing. I'll be a very sad pony the day there are no more big SC2 tournaments to watch.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I think it's more than safe to assume considering MLG is financed through venture capitol.
Interesting Tweet from Sundance: https://twitter.com/#!/MLGSundance/status/169198898836021248
MLG is financed through venture capital they got $2.5m a few months back, and $10m back in 2009.
MLG is financed through venture capital they got $2.5m a few months back, and $10m back in 2009.
PhoenixDark
Banned
The ridiculous backlage has convinced me to definitely buy this. $20 is nothing compared to what is being risked to put all this together
Sundance is a smart dude, I think he'll be moving to bigger/safer things soon
Sundance is a smart dude, I think he'll be moving to bigger/safer things soon
Yes but more money on the line pulls the viewers. More hype.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
Shrug I wont buy. Besides gsl I wont spend money for single events. Sad.
$20 to watch some of the best players in the world play is more than fine with me. Yes, there are some terrible players too, but nothing like the awful players at your average MLG.
Consider the number of hours of content you're getting then consider that PPV for something like UFC fights is $50. I enjoy watching competitive SC2 at least as much as I enjoy watching UFC or boxing or other PPV events, so $20 is dirt cheap.
If you don't want to spend $20, fine, but it is very, very cheap for the content IMO.
Consider the number of hours of content you're getting then consider that PPV for something like UFC fights is $50. I enjoy watching competitive SC2 at least as much as I enjoy watching UFC or boxing or other PPV events, so $20 is dirt cheap.
If you don't want to spend $20, fine, but it is very, very cheap for the content IMO.
cool, so when mlg becomes super successful, we'll see a cut of that right?
ohhhh, wait no. sundance isn't making those choices solely out of the goodness of his heart.
I haven't paid to watch SC2 for a very long time now and I'm not gonna start now.
It's been a very doom and gloom day in this thread and on TL. Blizzard needs to release HotS already to give this scene a boost, because I can already feel it start to die.
Also have they announced the casters for MLG Winter Arena? For most people, no Tastosis = no buy.
It's been a very doom and gloom day in this thread and on TL. Blizzard needs to release HotS already to give this scene a boost, because I can already feel it start to die.
Also have they announced the casters for MLG Winter Arena? For most people, no Tastosis = no buy.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
I hate the comparison to ppv events. Boxing ufc tend to be group of people watching together as a event. Alot of times pooling money together. Sc2 I'm watching alone on my PC talking to gaffers online.
It's the model they're using. I'm assuming that, because they're a business that needs to show profit at some point, they're using it because the current free/premium solution they've used for the main MLG events doesn't work for this one.
I would love to have free HD streams growing from the figurative trees but it's not going to happen at every event and if people want e-sports in general or SC2 in particular to keep growing, it can't happen. Companies need to have people paying at some point and I think $20 is a perfectly reasonable price point.
I mean just take a look at hamchan's post (you're not the only one, you just happened to post at a fortuitous time):
Is there anyone else who thinks that, maybe, those 2 feelings are related? If the "scene" is to survive, we can't expect to be able to watch good players play in tournaments with good prize money for nothing. There is no business that will look at that and go "Yes! I'll do amazing things for free with absolutely no financial return in the long or short term!"
Maybe $20 isn't ideal for some people but it's definitely not as outrageous as it's made out to be.
totalbiscuit seems to have no problem funding his own events. tl doesn't either. or dreamhack, or gom.tv. If american lan events cannot survive without ppv, then american lan events can die for all i care. We dont need mlg to get starcraft content and mlg's failings are not universal to the scene.
How many events with MLG's prize pool does TL hold?
How many events with MLG's prize pool does DreamHack hold?
TB giving away $1000 of his own money has absolutely nothing to do with an organization like MLG having to fly people around the world to their events.
If you're referencing GOMTV, you're either forgetting the minor shitstorm that also erupted on GAF when their new pricing for this year was revealed or being disingenuous about it. Which is it?
I honestly can't tell who's being serious right now. All this over $20. Twenty goddamn dollars! You'd think people were being dragged into dark alleys and robbed of all their moneys.
What if it was $30? $40? $50? $100?
How much would you declare unreasonable and why would you be right.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I really don't like this argument. As a businessman Sundance as put far more money into this than any of us. It's not only his passion and job, it's an investment in something we all can appreciate. If MLG is successful we get some amazing stuff and benefit. That's...how business tends to work
I would like to see smaller LAN events like TB's stuff, but I also like the big tournaments and hope they continue. But I definitely feel like they aren't long term.
Anything above $30 would be unreasonable for me personally, simply because I'm paying that much for a GSL Premium Season ticket right now.
My main issue is that people are proudly saying that they won't pay for this event, have never paid for an event and that they'd rather watch a free event while at the same time bemoaning the cost of this event. At that point, it's pretty farcical. If you won't pay, have never paid and would rather watch free events what exactly are you complaining about?
You can't say that you support esports while at the same time saying that you don't pay for events. People are pissed because they don't have free access to this content as if that should be expected. Perhaps I'm missing something, but how can you expect a tournament to pay players, please sponsors and provide a good viewing experience all for nothing?
I was certainly surprised when GOM boosted it's price for a season from $10 with ads to $25 with ads, but it's worth it for me to watch that tourney as it's got the best players in the world. Taking that into account, I ponied up the cash. This is another tourney with some of those same players playing head-to-head. It's definitely worth $20 to me and, assuming I have the money, I'll be putting it down.
The no-frills Light with ads season ticket is only $15 and has the VODs and HQ stream.
$25 is Premium with ads season ticket, and includes Korean VODs and mobile stream/VODs but most people don't care about those things.
TheThunder
Member
You're overblowing the level of reaction here, unless you're talking about tl, and in that case why do you subject yourself to that level of torture ?
StopMakingSense
Member
And the season is like double the games.
Either way, don't understand (more like don't really care) about the huge uproar. If people feel the need to they'll buy, if not, whatevs.
I think it's quite the scam that MLG Gold members don't get to watch it, considering that people bought it just for HQ Starcraft 2 streams.
More important than more games, GSL has better games because players have time to really prepare for each match instead of playing ladder style endurance runs after flying in the night before.