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[Striek]

Congrats on joining toss gaf :3

certain mechanics are unique to races and matchups, striek. You cant seriously believe that playing random is not retarding his progress? [and yes, build orders probably are holding him back]

There are differences, but I'm not convinced they're big enough to hinder progress. Why be a mediocre race-picking diamond winning via following builds rote. You can 6 pool to grandmasters (I played a zerg yesterday who told me thats what he was doing) and thats a good build order.

In platinum theres as much wrong with your fundamentals as there is right, so work on them IMO. Macro is obviously a large issue and the biggest divergence between the races, but its also the easiest mechanics to fix. You can absolutely have great macro playing randoms with each race if you practice. You should know every hotkey and how to acquire any unit, the biggest learning curve I had with SC2 was learning how many production buildings to slam down at any different moment with each race (very important at all levels of play).

Build orders are also just boring to follow. The important part of them is the early part and I'm sure in platinum players have that down pat (the 10depot, 12rax, 13gas etc. bits). After that the important bit is just having whatever units you want/need (thus economy, production, supply) as fast as possible.

Harder mechanics are more common to all races even if the method is slightly different - game sense, keeping on top of your economy, scouting appropriately, actually knowing what your scouting means, being map aware and probably most importantly having the composure to react to surprises or deal with heavy pressure. The biggest difference between a platinum toss and a masters toss isn't mouse accuracy, its how fast they throw down that forcefield

Obviously I only speak from my own perspective. I played random until SEA got NA access (and obviously intermittently since), feel it helped a ton. Also fun.

 

[Pandaman]

Ya we could meet earlier, not sure what you guys want to do. Maybe go to a Starbucks or Tim Hortons around 230-3pm or something?

sounds good.

Donations will be small, like $1-2 is fine if everyone donates, more if you want them to invest in something fancy for the March MLG Winter Championship Barcraft, the only real cost they have to recover is $20 for PPV and prizes for whatever contests they do.

don't they rent the bar?

 

[Zzoram]

Knowing how many production buildings you should have and when to make them is a build order.

Since I'm now Protoss, what's the most standard PvP, PvT and PvZ opening you guys use?

I know the hotkeys for all the units, buildings, and most of the upgrades, so that isn't my problem. I do lack in macro though, and I tend to not make more than 1 unit before Warpgate is done so sometimes I die to rushes due to that.

My expansion timings are also really bad, I am really horrible at taking my 3rd and that has often costed me games. When is the right time to take a 3rd?

 

[Zzoram]

don't they rent the bar?

I think they only have to pay a minimum fee for the Bar if they can't get a strong enough turnout for the Bar to make money on food and drinks. That said, more donations are welcome, they'll just put it towards making future Barcrafts more awesome. In the past they've done contests with prizes with the extra money.

Back when they did the Toronto movie screen rental GSL nights, ya that was insanely expensive, several hundreds of dollars. However, that was because the movie theatre had to bring in staff for an overnight shift.

Barcraft on Sunday afternoon, that's a slow time for the Bar anyways, so this is bringing them more customers.

 

[Pandaman]

There are differences, but I'm not convinced they're big enough to hinder progress.

my terran has lost to gold league players.
and corran.

Why be a mediocre race-picking diamond winning via following builds rote. You can 6 pool to grandmasters (I played a zerg yesterday who told me thats what he was doing) and thats a good build order.

for fun? i presume he wants to pick a race so he can standardize his play a bit and get more fun out of it. you ask why be a mediocre race picker, but the alternative is being a mediocre random who loses frustrating games because he doesnt get the playtime for specific matchups and lategame scenarios.

In platinum theres as much wrong with your fundamentals as there is right, so work on them IMO. Macro is obviously a large issue and the biggest divergence between the races, but its also the easiest mechanics to fix. You can absolutely have great macro playing randoms with each race if you practice. You should know every hotkey and how to acquire any unit, the biggest learning curve I had with SC2 was learning how many production buildings to slam down at any different moment with each race (very important at all levels of play).

You say that there is so much wrong with a platinums fundamental play, but you think its fine for them to just turn around and learn every hotkey, every build, every response to every awkward situation, how to expand and when and what you need to do it? thats a lot of work, striek. why not specialize? the advantage of random doesnt exactly offset a 3fold increase in practice time with every matchup.

Build orders are also just boring to follow. The important part of them is the early part and I'm sure in platinum players have that down pat (the 10depot, 12rax, 13gas etc. bits). After that the important bit is just having whatever units you want/need (thus economy, production, supply) as fast as possible.

there's no rule saying you have to autopilot your builds if you're grinding one race or even one matchup [infact its very important not to], but its certainly important to have a reliable structure underlying your gameplay as long as you understand that the build order is a metric for comparison rather than a recipe.

ie: i played a ZvZ yesterday on cloud kingdom where we both 14/14'd but my opponent drone scouted, since it was a 2 player map i took advantage of the drone scout to build 2 extra sets of lings before taking my natural so that i could be a tad more aggressive vs my opponents lower econ, it worked out and i picked him apart with ling pressure; his explanation for why he lost? my timings are bad and my late hatch confused him, he's too used to playing people with good timings. [ie: people who autopilot 14/14 expand the exact same way no matter what]

He didn't understand how or why you would want to divert from a standard build order, but random players dont even get the chance to explore those opportunities at all. you just dont get the playtime or thought time to think 'how can i make 14/14 better for me in zvz', you rely on other people teaching or showing you builds and dont truly expand your understanding of how the two players interact within the matchup. With random you can reliably wonder 'what can i get away with 66% of the time' and that's as far as matchup depth goes game over game.

Harder mechanics are more common to all races even if the method is slightly different - game sense, keeping on top of your economy, scouting appropriately, actually knowing what your scouting means, being map aware and probably most importantly having the composure to react to surprises or deal with heavy pressure.
Obviously I only speak from my own perspective. I played random until SEA got NA access (and obviously intermittently since), feel it helped a ton. Also fun.

and in my experience any zerg mechanics i have translate horribly to the other races.

 

[Zzoram]

I just realized none of the guys going to Barcraft are on my friends list

how do i add you guys?

 

[Pandaman]

PandaGAF#436

add friend > add character id friend > enter pandagaf as username > enter 436 as character code > success!

 

[Spl1nter]

I just realized none of the guys going to Barcraft are on my friends list

how do i add you guys?

Splinter.798

join us on GAF night

 

[Striek]

Knowing how many production buildings you should have and when to make them is a build order.

Its not really though. Particularly with protoss and zerg but also terran you must be very fluid depending on what you scout. Thus your economy isn't going to be at the same point at the same time each game, thus your timings on buildings will be different and quite possibly the buildings themselves will change as your unit composition needs to. A build order is I'm going to build X at Y supply with very limited Z variations specified depending on scouting. Playing the game and going "I'm on 3 bases, hes got a ton of vikings I need another 5 gateways and to transitition to getting templar" isn't a BO. Its reactionary based on whats happening. Shit can and will happen that no build order will account for.

Since I'm now Protoss, what's the most standard PvP, PvT and PvZ opening you guys use?

PvP: I like to go 2gate, 2 gas, 3 stalkers then a sentry and a third gate, I pretend to pressure if possible and then I expand. Unless they 4gate then I just hold it off and they usually gg. Then I get a robo for obs then chrono'd immortals, the add another gate. Usually my opponent wont know what I'm doing until his obs gets to my base and the nexus is done/nearly done and its really hard for any one-base robo to break this build. If they try expanding later I go 2robo colossi. I've just started doing this, I haven't seen another toss do it this exact way, and its a really fun, cool build. Highly recommend. Sometimes I just 4gate too. Or 1gate -> DT shrine -> 4gate chargelot/archon allin after DT harass.

PvT: 1 gate expand, Robo, 5 more gates, 2-3 immortal push (or a decent 1/1/1 defence composition). 1 gate expand into 6gate templar and take a third. Occasionally I go for 1gate stargate phoenixes, which is fun but hard as hell to play. If I suspect 2rax I go 3gate expand or 2gate robo expand.

PvZ: FFE into 7gate blink stalker all-in, or FFE into stargate +1 zealot 4gate, or 2gate (10/10). Increasingly I go for some type of 3base+ play, but I still struggle in this matchup a lot and am experimenting with ways to get to the late game whilst keeping the zerg in check.


All these are very flexible obviously, and what units I warpin vary greatly game to game.

My expansion timings are also really bad, I am really horrible at taking my 3rd and that has often costed me games. When is the right time to take a 3rd?

This is one of the things I was talking about, theres no set in stone time when its right. Its right when you can take it and hold it. You'll need to experiment. Gradually you get a sense for it.

 

[Tashi]

Depends.

1-1 is just a part of a game plan. Why 1-1 and why not something else?
Is 1-1 better than the alternative? What plays to my strengths?
If you are only comfortable with 2 base vs 2 or 3 base Z or P then maybe just sit at 1-1 off 1 engi bay for a while so you can get your medivacs and ghosts out faster.

Factors like:
Can you do well late game on 3+ bases
If you plan a longer game Terran needs double upgrades vs P
If you kill or hurt P before Collosus you can get away with 1-0 shenanigans for a longer period of time, maybe spend all the gas on quick cloak ghosts and bank on hitting 2 clutch EMPs at 12 minutes to win

When you say 'Are quick upgrades good' you need to ask another 10 questions to get that into context.

For your original question the answer is yes, if you are one basing. You are sacrificing far too much to start early upgrades. 1-1 means jack shit if you don't have an expo or stim and combat shield. Upgrades tie in well with longer games.

Hazard already covered most of it but here's my take.

As a Zerg, I'll put down that expo first if I'm any good at all, especially with the maps being so large now.

If you wait for 1-1 to finish and you're doing it on 1 base (which is what it sounds like) any good Zerg will have Lings and banes to counter your infantry. Keep in mind that the scouting Overlord will come in anywhere from 8-9 mins in. You won't have your upgrades done and a Zerg would see you still on base. They stop making drones and pump their army, maybe even get lair and have bane speed at least on the way before you moved out. You'd get rolled.

If you're playing against Protoss, it would highly depend on the build used. If it's any sort of 1-base Colossus build, you'd lose and they'd probably scout you with their observer. DTs would slow down your army and you probably won't have the scans saved up to keep scanning. Archons would wreck your shit too in combination with FFs.

I have no idea how TvT would look against this, but I'd imagine that either Siege Tanks or Hellions would kill you pretty damn quick too.

The main thing to remember with 1-base plays is that they're all or nothing. If you don't attack and do significant damage, you should and probably will lose. I would say that, these days, 1 base plays aren't really worth it.

Thanks guys. And yea I was just talking about using it as a 1 base play. Making an early push with a decent amount of units. Similar to a 3 rax build where you push when stim is done.

 

[Pandaman]

Its not really though. Particularly with protoss and zerg but also terran you must be very fluid depending on what you scout. Thus your economy isn't going to be at the same point at the same time each game, thus your timings on buildings will be different and quite possibly the buildings themselves will change as your unit composition needs to. A build order is I'm going to build X at Y supply with very limited Z variations specified depending on scouting. Playing the game and going "I'm on 3 bases, hes got a ton of vikings I need another 5 gateways and to transitition to getting templar" isn't a BO. Its reactionary based on whats happening. Shit can and will happen that no build order will account for.

you still need to learn a build order first before you're capable of optimizing in realtime in accordance to what you're scouting. the whole point of learning build orders early on is to provide a solid basis of play that is very general and can react to or survive a broad variety of circumstances.

with zerg, we tell people to get evo quickly as part of a build order because in general its a good idea to have it as protection against cloak and air rushes. as players improve the functionality and exact timings of the evo can change but the point of the build order is to keep them from dying to random dt rushes while they're exploring upgrade timings and how they manage their gas.

actually, since tashi is here ill use him as an example.

do you think it'd be better for tashi to trial and error his way out of his 3rax play as he advances or for someone to teach him a hellion expand or a 1rax expo or whatever terrans do tvt and have him trial and error from those builds as a starting point? To ignore build orders feels like you're going out of your way to ignore the progress everyone else is making in a matchup.

 

[Zzoram]

How do I find my character number?

 

[Spl1nter]

How do I find my character number?

Hover over avatar in sc2

 

[OrangeYouGlad]

You can add me: Nixel.800

 

[Deadman]

Artist cant go to winter arena. Demuslim replaces after they did a small online tournament to see who got to go.

 

[Tashi]

LOL I'm watching TLO and his username is "GameOfDrones" Pretty awesome.

 

[PhoenixDark]

LOL I'm watching TLO and his username is "GameOfDrones" Pretty awesome.

zerg player? He was in my diamond league last season lol

 

[Zzoram]

Zzoram

number: 147

 

[cdyhybrid]

zerg player? He was in my diamond league last season lol

Sounds about right. Pro player in Europe, Diamond NA.

 

[Zzoram]

anyone want to play?

 

[Pandaman]

anyone want to play?

but incontrol is cannon rushing people 25minutes in!

 

[Zzoram]

but incontrol is cannon rushing people 25minutes in!

I don't know what this means

 

[scogoth]

I don't know what this means

It means you should always cannon rush at the 25 min mark.

 

[Zzoram]

Who are you all playing with? just 1v1s?

 

[Corran Horn]

but incontrol is cannon rushing people 25minutes in!

I cannoned a zergs 3rd base the other day...that failed badly
....still won though

 

[Pandaman]

I cannoned a zergs 3rd base the other day...that failed badly
....still won though

im surprised it failed.

 

[mcrae]

yeah, getting drunk is the plan for me too. i still vote we meet at some bar acrosss the street instead of a tim hortons, but whatever!

 

[Pancakes]

I cannoned a zergs 3rd base the other day...that failed badly
....still won though

I cannoned a zerg's natural after he went hatch first and I went FFE, feels good man.

 

[Pandaman]

yeah, getting drunk is the plan for me too. i still vote we meet at some bar acrosss the street instead of a tim hortons, but whatever!

the event starts at 4pm, presuming we want to sit somewhere, we should probably show up early. so you want to meet up at a bar at like 2pm before going to another bar? lush.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I cannoned a zerg's natural after he went hatch first and I went FFE, feels good man.

It sucks when I 15h thinking it's ZvT only to see a probe. Then I'm like "fuck thought it said you were terran" and he's like "LOL" two pylons of death

 

[mcrae]

the event starts at 4pm, presuming we want to sit somewhere, we should probably show up early. so you want to meet up at a bar at like 2pm before going to another bar? lush.

2pm is excessive, i'd say between 3-330 just so we know who each other are. gonna be at the cafe for 4+ hours anyways, dont wanna get bored of you guys while sitting in a tim hortons somewhere


yes im a lush

 

[OrangeYouGlad]

It sucks when I 15h thinking it's ZvT only to see a probe. Then I'm like "fuck thought it said you were terran" and he's like "LOL" two pylons of death

Try using that line against someone you know is protoss and have a counter for. I wonder how many wins you could get out of that.

 

[Zzoram]

2pm is excessive, i'd say between 3-330 just so we know who each other are. gonna be at the cafe for 4+ hours anyways, dont wanna get bored of you guys while sitting in a tim hortons somewhere


yes im a lush

Ya I think Tim Hortons is a fair pre-meet around 3ish

 

[Pandaman]

wow, TTC fares are $3? you guys are getting raped.

i cant find a timmies near victory cafe with google street view. -.-
found a second cup and a starbucks though.

 

[Corran Horn]

im surprised it failed.

Whore

 

[Pandaman]

Whore

whores charge for their work.

 

[Corran Horn]

whores charge for their work.

Pony

 

[OrangeYouGlad]

wow, TTC fares are $3? you guys are getting raped.

i cant find a timmies near victory cafe with google street view. -.-
found a second cup and a starbucks though.

Fares have gone up to $3 almost everywhere around the GTA over the last couple years. I use Presto so I end up paying 2.60. Go me!

Closest Timmies is just a bit east of Bathurst and Bloor.

 

[WedgeX]

LOL I'm watching TLO and his username is "GameOfDrones" Pretty awesome.

waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait WAIT

TLO is playing again?!

Fuck yeah!

 

[zargle]

Pony

Ponies give it away for friendship.

 

[jasonng]

I can think of a million and one ways to mess with drunk Panda. Such bullshit I can't be there.

 

[Pandaman]

I can think of a million and one ways to mess with drunk Panda. Such bullshit I can't be there.

start pming them to splinter.

 

[Mairu]

Looks like the silhouettes was just misdirection

Heart (formerly of TSL) joins complexity

 

[Mairu]

more progaming news from redditMairu!

IEM WC groups announced http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/hanover/news/185626/

Group A
viOlet
MMA
JYP
KiLLeR
Socke
Strelok
Group B
MC
elfittaja
Sound
ret
HasuObs
Nerchio
Group C
PuMa
dimaga
Fruitdealer
MaNa
Gatored
Zenio
Group D
IdrA
DongRaeGu
SuperNoVa
Kas
ReaL
Feast

DRG's gonna dominate his group, the rest look pretty good

 

[Deadman]

looking forward to idra going 0-5

 

[Pancakes]

Holy shit, Fruitdealer is still alive.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Holy shit, Fruitdealer is still alive.

If I had a time machine I'd probably go back and win that first GSL.

 

[Pandaman]

If I had a time machine I'd probably go back and win that first GSL.

you'd lose to proxy 2gate zealots that build 5 seconds faster, bunkers that build 10 seconds faster, super reapers and terrible maps.

you'd win every ZvZ though, zergs never been good.

 

[TheThunder]

Well this IEM should be really good with some ro8 code S players, and they also got only legit foreign player there as well.

 

[Corran Horn]

waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait WAIT

TLO is playing again?!

Fuck yeah!

Tlo has been playing for awhile now....