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[derExperte]

In what world does wasd allow for more precise character movement?

Zero delay. I can change between directions immediately because I have fingers on all keys while with an analog stick I have to move the stick first from left to right for example which takes time and doesn't give me 100% accuracy. Of course it requires practice but the advantage is huge.

 

[Chance Hale]

Zero delay. I can change between directions immediately because I have fingers on all keys while with an analog stick I have to move the stick first from left to right for example which takes time and doesn't give me 100% accuracy. Of course it requires practice but the advantage is huge.

Moving a stick takes as much time as pressing a button(ie none)

 

[Salsa]

Most games have true analog movement and the ones that don't wouldn't benefit from being able to go perfectly straight/sideways/diagonal.

... ? where else would you "go" with the games that don't have true analog movement?

Moving a stick takes as much time as pressing a button(ie none)

no

 

[KenOD]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/spchless.gif[/][/QUOTE]

If I'm going to play a fighting game that I'm not doing because I love it (King of Fighters) or in a tournament for (Virtua Fighter in my youth), why wouldn't I do what gets me the most enjoyment out of it? "but it plays better if you do it this way" means little if it's not as fun to me, especially for a game I'll only play for about 30 minutes at most in a week back when I did play it.

Actually now that I think about it, I should have played FEZ with a DDR mat for everything other than precise movement when it came to platforming.

 

[Chance Hale]

... ? where else would you "go" with the games that don't have true analog movement?

Figured you were talking about games with deadzone issues which wouldn't be build around accurate movements anyway.

And yes. Should be clear that I'm not talking about FPS games where the ability to use the mouse to throw yourself in directions is a huge difference. Talking about third person games.

 

[derExperte]

Moving a stick takes as much time as pressing a button(ie none)

Wrong. As I said, I can change between running forward and backward with absolutely no delay, I press s while not even having stopped pressing w. Compared to that you have to move an analog stick all the way from front position to the back. Try to do that multiple times in 5 seconds and you'll see which method is more effective and gives you more control.

 

[Salsa]

If I'm going to play a fighting game that I'm not doing because I love it (King of Fighters) or in a tournament for (Virtua Fighter in my youth), why wouldn't I do what gets me the most enjoyment out of it? "but it plays better if you do it this way" means little if it's not as fun to me, especially for a game I'll only play for about 30 minutes at most in a week back when I did play it.

playing fighting games with a DDR mat sounds like an exercise in frustration rather than enjoyment

I mean I can probably launch FTL and instead of controlling it just roll around on the floor and I could technically be having fun for a while, but that's not how i'd prefer to "play it"

 

[Chance Hale]

Wrong. As I said, I can change between running forward and backward with absolutely no delay, I press s while not even having stopped pressing w. Compared to that you have to move and analog stick all the way from front position to the back. Try to do that multiple times in 5 seconds and you'll see which method is more effective and gives you more control.

I can assure you that flicking a stick up and down isn't very hard.

 

[Salsa]

Figured you were talking about games with deadzone issues which wouldn't be build around accurate movements anyway.

And yes. Should be clear that I'm not talking about FPS games where the ability to use the mouse to throw yourself in directions is a huge difference. Talking about third person games.

im talking about games with digital 8-way movement. Then what you can achieve is exactly the same wether you're using a gamepad or a keyboard. It's all 8 inputs.

the only difference then is preference, and the fact that you have a faster reaction time with a keyboard

derExperte is right that a keyboard is faster. Those miliseconds of moving the stick can perfectly not be bothersome to you but it's not what everyone prefers. There's absolutely a difference between pressing a button and moving a stick.

 

[Turfster]

I can assure you that flicking a stick up and down isn't very hard.

It is if you do it long enough!

But seriously, KBM>controller for everything! =p

 

[Salsa]

people saying moving a stick is the exact same as pressing a button are probably fine with platformers that use "up" for jump *shudders*

 

[Chance Hale]

im talking about games with digital 8-way movement. Then what you can achieve is exactly the same wether you're using a gamepad or a keyboard. It's all 8 inputs.

the only difference then is preference, and the fact that you have a faster reaction time with a keyboard

In a game like Uncharted or Galaxy 2 you can make a perfect circle with the character using the stick in one movement. It just feels infinitely more natural than pressing two buttons to move diagonally and flicking between them to move about. Works perfectly well on wasd mind you. It's the mouse that makes pc games control better, not wasd.

people saying moving a stick is the exact same as pressing a button are probably fine with platformers that use "up" for jump *shudders*

Nope, it's terrible.

It is if you do it long enough!

But seriously, KBM>controller for everything! =p

I still agree outside of action games, the mouse makes a massive difference in nearly any game with an aim mechanic. Just think wasd for movement compared to an analog stick is clunky.

 

[impact]

But seriously, KBM>controller for everything! =p

Except action games

Dark Souls, DMC, Ninja Gaiden require pad for godlike play.


oh and platformers.

 

[derExperte]

I can assure you that flicking a stick up and down isn't very hard.

Not hard but slow. I play a bunch of PC games with my 360 gamepad and on consoles/handhelds when it makes sense. But wasd is so much faster and more precise for movement in fast action games that it's not even funny.

 

[Salsa]

In a game like Uncharted or Galaxy 2 you can make a perfect circle with the character using the stick in one movement. It just feels infinitely more natural than pressing two buttons to move diagonally and flicking between them to move about. Works perfectly well on wasd mind you. It's the mouse that makes pc games control better, not wasd.

then those games have analog control. Escapes the point im making. You can't make a perfect circle in Mario 64 for example.

ideally yes, in those cases I agree that a gamepad can be better suited for those subtle movements except for the fact that you barely benefit from doing that in some games hence why some people still prefer to sacrifice that in order to make those inputs faster.

another good case would be games where you can manage walking speed. that's ussually recreated in kb with holding down or toggling another key but in some console games you still have like 3 or 4 different movement speeds depending on how you're pushing the stick

 

[Atraveller]

Stop bringing up Dark Souls as an example! It's a barebone port, of course it played beter with a controller.

 

[Pudge]

Let's see what's going on in the Steam thread today...

Oh! Keyboard and Mouse vs Controller Debate!

 

[The Grim Heaper]

Let's see what's going on in the Steam thread today...

Oh! Keyboard and Mouse vs Controller Debate!

get back in here and tell us what's better so we can praise or kick you to the curb

 

[rookiejet]

It really depends on who you're making games for. I'm not a huge fan of author theory in the sense that I think once a game is released, it's not anyone's anymore; its meaning becomes multiple, one for each player, every interpretation as valid as the original intent.
So the question that you're faced with when making a game is: do you want those interpretations to be as close as possible to something you're trying to convey? Or do you only care about your own take on this creation of yours, and only create it for yourself in the first place - while knowing that it'll be appropriated by many when made public?

I happen to tend towards the latter.

As a player, I tend to prefer kitsch games, and not art games (atleast not often in their purest expression). Kitsch games, I find, are more sympathetic; I feel that both the game and I are conceding to meet in the middle, so to speak, to understand each other. But as you said, it is subjective (and also not intended by me as a generalization of art or kitsch games), there'll likely be others who would put in more effort to understand a game that I deem unsympathetic. (I am, perhaps arbitrarily, differentiating understanding from appreciation, because as I said I think games usually have an additional barrier to reaching audience understanding. Appreciation, or lack thereof, lies beyond this barrier.)

 

[Salsa]

I like Arcade Sticks a lot.

 

[Chance Hale]

then those games have analog control. You can't make a perfect circle in Mario 64 for example.

ideally yes, in those cases I agree that a gamepad can be better suited for those subtle movements except for the fact that you barely benefit from doing that in most games hence why some people still prefer to sacrifice that in order to make those inputs faster.

I was talking about analog control, which many games have(although I don't think the newest mario does) When I'm controlling a character I really like having that freedom of movement and pointing the character in any direction is great. Not to mention having multiple speeds on stick. Ie how hard you push determines whether you walk, jog, run, etc. That is something wasd can never replicate and just makes analog movement feel natural. As I said before pushing two buttons to move diagonally works but it's never felt right to me even though it's perfectly suitable. Mouse aiming is such a huge difference though that as you said it's often worth sacrificing the stick movement.

 

[DukeBobby]

I use a controller for most games.

Then again, I tend to only play single player games, where fast reactions times aren't really necessary.

 

[RavenValor95]

Except action games

Dark Souls, DMC, Ninja Gaiden require pad for godlike play.


oh and platformers.

I'd say it depends on the action game for example in MGR Keyboard and mouse is better, or at least it was for me.
I played through MGR:R on a gamepad and a keyboard, but during the final fight on harder difficulties where you have to make precise cuts to rocks being thrown at you, on a gamepad I found that really difficult since you use the right analog stick to position it and then let go of the stick to slice it(or press X/Y) but on Keyboard, you can line it up with a mouse and then press LMB/RMB and I found that allowed for a lot more precision with my cutting making for a MUCH easier time with the final boss(seriously, it took me like 30m to beat him on a gamepad, and about 4m on a keyboard and mouse)

Although, I aint a god, so I guess I can't really comment on godlike play, haha.

 

[KenOD]

playing fighting games with a DDR mat sounds like an exercise in frustration rather than enjoyment

I mean I can probably launch FTL and instead of controlling it just roll around on the floor and I could technically be having fun for a while, but that's not how i'd prefer to "play it"

On normal with how A.I. fights in Street Fighter 2? Not at all. Aye I can't do special moves beyond the hold Back and press forward plus punch types (Vega for example), but still entirely doable and no frustration my end at all for the silly play I did with Street Fighter. Got me active, I could still win, and even with a friend using a DDR mat of their own it's a good recopie for hilarity if they don't get frustrated either.

As for how one prefers to play it, well that was rather my point. How one prefers to play a game is the best way to play a game for a person in my opinion when we are talking purely about an enjoyment aspect. If someone gets the most out of a gamepad instead of WSAD and mouse, if that's their prefer way, and they are having fun, it's not "wrong" to use a gamepad at all. Aye you can move faster with a mouse and keyboard all things being equal, but if someone is slower on a keyboard and mouse or can't hold that finger position for too long or it just feels more natural to hold a gamepad, well that loses some of it's effectiveness. If playing with something is less fun, like say you and a DDR mat because it would be frustrating, then it's not wrong to not do it.

I've just gone through this too many times in fighting games with those who look down upon anyone not using a joystick and six buttons, as though if you don't do it "the right way", then you shouldn't play at all and don't know what you are doing and that's just a train of thought I can't subscribe to when games, at their core, are fun toys to play with.

I do look forward to the future where we have mentally controlled input devices though. "You mean you have to use your hands? that's like a baby's toy"

 

[BinaryPork2737]

I'm not really picky either way most of the time, but I could never play 4X games like Civ or rts games like Age of Empires with anything but KBM, racing games like F-Zero GX without a controller, and fighting games without a stick, even though I'm garbage at them.

 

[Dog Problems]

I do look forward to the future where we have mentally controlled input devices though. "You mean you have to use your hands? that's like a baby's toy"

We've got some that are partially controlled with a hand. Baby steps!

 

[Salsa]

On normal with how A.I. fights in Street Fighter 2? Not at all. Aye I can't do special moves beyond the hold Back and press forward plus punch types (Vega for example), but still entirely doable and no frustration my end at all for the silly play I did with Street Fighter. Got me active, I could still win, and even with a friend using a DDR mat of their own it's a good recopie for hilarity if they don't get frustrated either.

As for how one prefers to play it, well that was rather my point. How one prefers to play a game is the best way to play a game for a person in my opinion when we are talking purely about an enjoyment aspect. If someone gets the most out of a gamepad instead of WSAD and mouse, if that's their prefer way, and they are having fun, it's not "wrong" to use a gamepad at all. Aye you can move faster with a mouse and keyboard all things being equal, but if someone is slower on a keyboard and mouse or can't hold that finger position for too long or it just feels more natural to hold a gamepad, well that loses some of it's effectiveness. If playing with something is less fun, like say you and a DDR mat because it would be frustrating, then it's not wrong to not do it.

I've just gone through this too many times in fighting games with those who look down upon anyone not using a joystick and six buttons, as though if you don't do it "the right way", then you shouldn't play at all and don't know what you are doing and that's just a train of thought I can't subscribe to when games, at their core, are fun toys to play with.

I do look forward to the future where we have mentally controlled input devices though. "You mean you have to use your hands? that's like a baby's toy"

eh I don't really look down on it and I get your point, it's just think it feels weird to say playin a fighting game with a DDR mat is the best way to play it .. but going by the way in which you use that phrase then sure

either way, fighting games:

1) arcade stick
2) keyboard
3) a potato
4) gamepad

 

[Levyne]

I use M+KB for FPS or interface heavy rpgs/mmos. Controllers for action games or action-rpgs.

 

[BigAT]

Any mod recommendations for someone playing through Fallout: New Vegas for the first time?

 

[Stallion Free]

Any mod recommendations for someone playing through Fallout: New Vegas for the first time?

I was very content with my vanilla experience, especially for a first run.

 

[Tecl0n]

Any mod recommendations for someone playing through Fallout: New Vegas for the first time?

Only MMUE (bug fixes) and stutter removal.

 

[Salsa]

Any mod recommendations for someone playing through Fallout: New Vegas for the first time?

vanilla is fine, but you should play hardcore and wild wasteland

 

[Chance Hale]

Any mod recommendations for someone playing through Fallout: New Vegas for the first time?

I really like NMC's texture mod pack but otherwise vanilla for a first playthrough is probably the best option. After that there are mods that open up the cities as originally intended and restore content which I love.

 

[mannerbot]

I've just gone through this too many times in fighting games with those who look down upon anyone not using a joystick and six buttons, as though if you don't do it "the right way", then you shouldn't play at all and don't know what you are doing and that's just a train of thought I can't subscribe to when games, at their core, are fun toys to play with.

I thought that you were kidding at first, but I don't see how you could be offended by people saying that you aren't playing the right way and that you don't know what you're doing. These are basically factual statements. It's like a banging random keys on a piano instead of learning how to properly play. You can have fun doing that and it certainly saves you a lot of time if you play the piano like that rather than taking lessons etc., but the fact is that by doing so you're treating it as a child's toy and not everybody sees it that way. I'd argue that devoting time into actually learning how to play the piano (or fighting games) would lead to a greater appreciation and ultimately more enjoyment, but if you're not willing to put the time in, then at least you're having fun messing around? But the fact remains that you don't know what you're doing, lol.

 

[KenOD]

eh I don't really look down on it and I get your point, it's just think it feels weird to say playin a fighting game with a DDR mat is the best way to play it .. but going by the way in which you use that phrase then sure

either way, fighting games:

1) arcade stick
2) keyboard
3) a potato
4) gamepad

My apologises if I made it sound I thought you were looking down on it, just trying to say at this point it's a bit of a trigger phrase for me when someone says "you are doing it wrong".

For me Street Fighter 2 is the only game I would say the DDR Mat is best for me, because I treat it as just that, a joke, a gag, a spot of fun and nothing more. As I mentioned earlier, with Virtua Fighter and King of Fighters I don't use it because for that it's best for me to play with something that obviously has finer control like an arcade stick (or to me) a gamepad. I can't physically do it on a keyboard because an old injury sometimes causes my pinky to lock up if I hold it in certain positions and for a fighting game, it would happen with a keyboard.

I never got a proper handle on a potato, always too hot.

I thought that you were kidding at first, but I don't see how you could be offended by people saying that you aren't playing the right way and that you don't know what you're doing. These are basically factual statements. It's like a banging random keys on a piano instead of learning how to properly play. You can have fun doing that and it certainly saves you a lot of time if you play the piano like that rather than taking lessons etc., but the fact is that by doing so you're treating it as a child's toy and not everybody sees it that way. I'd argue that devoting time into actually learning how to play the piano (or fighting games) would lead to a greater appreciation and ultimately more enjoyment, but if you're not willing to put the time in, then at least you're having fun messing around? But the fact remains that you don't know what you're doing, lol.

I'm not offended by people saying they believe something is technically better, scientifically better, or mathematically better. I was referring to the mindset some how where because they believe something to be better then someone is less as a person because they don't play it using the control "they prefer", much in the "master race PC player" kind of way. I've seen people who can play just fine with a gamepad in fighting games and beat people using an arcade stick, even though on a basic level the arcade stick offers more on a technical level, and if that's how they want to play a game, I just can't subscribe to the thought "it's doing it wrong".

Aye I believe in learning a game if one wants to get better at a game, I just said I used a arcade stick for fighting games like Virtua Fighter which I took place in tournaments with and won, so I obviously was doing so with skill I learned and improved on as was my goal. In fact, getting good at a game and improving in skill is how I get the most enjoyment out of games, be it fighting games I don't take as silly distractions to titles such as Spelunky and Dark Souls 2 or Tetris.
However games, at their core, are something to be enjoyed. To me that is a toy, but that doesn't mean you can't get more out of it and get more enjoyment out of it if that indeed the goal. Just like one could play with a football and just have fun with it, or they can master it and become a player in FIFA. Nothing wrong with being a toy, nothing wrong with seeing it as more than just a toy, because "toy" is not an offensive or demeaning word to me and no one is "doing it wrong" whichever way the view a football. Unless you play for Manchester United, that's doing it wrong, oh so very wrong... go Rangers.

 

[Salsa]

god damn I want a new fallout

fucking elder scrolls bullshit fuckity fuck

 

[legacyzero]

god damn I want a new fallout

fucking elder scrolls bullshit fuckity fuck

Yeah, My life needs a new Fallout game.

 

[Servizio]

god damn I want a new fallout

fucking elder scrolls bullshit fuckity fuck

Somewhere, the finger on a cursed monkey paw crooks ominously.

 

[phantomspiker]

god damn I want a new fallout

fucking elder scrolls bullshit fuckity fuck

That's exactly how I feel.

Now if we can just get Bethesda to hand over the reigns to Obsidian permanently.

 

[Chance Hale]

E3 is only 2 months away.

Skyrim was the first game in the series for almost 7 years so I'm glad we finally got it

 

[toddhunter]

I thought that you were kidding at first, but I don't see how you could be offended by people saying that you aren't playing the right way and that you don't know what you're doing. These are basically factual statements.

Depending on the fighting game, a gamepad can be advantageous for things like movement especially (for the same arguments as a keyboard vs analog stick). Hence why the "hit box" is a thing.

 

[Salsa]

each time I feel good knowing a new Fallout is probably what's next for Bethesda I remember that Obsidian is not gonna have anything to do with it and I get sad again

 

[Atraveller]

Somewhere, the finger on a cursed monkey paw crooks ominously.

Then someone in Zenimax said, "We need a Fallout online".

 

[mannerbot]

Depending on the fighting game, a gamepad can be advantageous for things like movement especially (for the same arguments as a keyboard vs analog stick).

Hm, I don't know if I'd agree with that in games that require digital movement. It's certainly true for things like hitboxes though, and yeah there's Vangief analog stick stuff so maybe you're right. I wasn't really talking about the merits of different input devices though, I'm talking about playing on a DDR mat and limiting your fighting game experience to messing around with friends every once in a while. Not that that can't be fun, but how can you possibly get mad when people say that you're not playing properly?

edit: and then you edited to mention hitboxes

 

[phantomspiker]

Then someone in Zenimax said, "We need a Fallout online".

 

[toddhunter]

Then someone in Zenimax said, "We need a Fallout online".

Or better yet, they saw the continued sales of Kingdoms of Amalur and decide we need a Fallout online, offline.

Just to bring us all full circle and break the combo.

 

[KenOD]

Hm, I don't know if I'd agree with that in games that require digital movement. It's certainly true for things like hitboxes though, and yeah there's Vangief analog stick stuff so maybe you're right. I wasn't really talking about the merits of different input devices though, I'm talking about playing on a DDR mat and limiting your fighting game experience to messing around with friends every once in a while. Not that that can't be fun, but how can you possibly get mad when people say that you're not playing properly?

edit: and then you edited to mention hitboxes

I edited the post above, but I only brought up the DDR mat in regards to one game and just me me having fun. A title, which for the record, I don't care much about. I don't get mad if anyone says they don't want to play it that way, hell I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that wouldn't have fun with it.

I wouldn't play Marvel vs Capcom 3 for example with a gamepad or a keyboard and mouse or anything else other, just an arcade stick because that was a game I wanted to get good at and get the most enjoyment out of it. A friend of mine however couldn't use an arcade stick, couldn't afford it, and still wanted to play so he used a gamepad. I got tired and offended by people that told my friend he shouldn't play the game at all if he wasn't going to use an arcade stick because "that's doing it wrong".

My point to all of this, and I admit I may have made it confusing to spot, was that it's not wrong to have fun with a game and play it how they prefer it. I rather have someone enjoy a game than not at all. Be it a controller or slower frame rate or on Origin instead of Steam or what have you.

 

[Chance Hale]

Then someone in Zenimax said, "We need a Fallout online".

Luckily that person then called the Zenimax Online team.

 

[Atraveller]

Or better yet, they saw the continued sales of Kingdoms of Amalur and decide we need a Fallout online, offline.

Just to bring us all full circle and break the combo.

Multiplayer mod yo

 

[jshackles]

I just saw that a lot of GMOD servers got hacked.

Stay safe out there guys.