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STEAM | January 2016 - Out of cash, out of cache

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Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
It will be kind of sad if the Witness bombs because Blow didn't price it according to expectations. Even without judging it based on content or budget, $40 is a weird price psychologically. The only thing I can think of that comes out at that price these days is 3DS games. I bet if he priced it at $20 he would have sold a ton of copies and more than made up the difference in volume.

I guess we'll see. Could see it on Humble Bundle before long.

But your argument requires that when he lowers it to $20 everyone has moved on, and it's unclear why that would be the case given the strong word of mouth and critical reviews. Price stratification isn't the same thing as pricing wrong.
 
The Annual Anime Update for GTA Online just dropped, got this kawaii ride in my garage now.

wWfwS98.jpg
 

Teggy

Member
But your argument requires that when he lowers it to $20 everyone has moved on, and it's unclear why that would be the case given the strong word of mouth and critical reviews. Price stratification isn't the same thing as pricing wrong.

No, no, it's too late for that. I meant he should have priced it at $20 to start.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
It will be kind of sad if the Witness bombs because Blow didn't price it according to expectations. Even without judging it based on content or budget, $40 is a weird price psychologically. The only thing I can think of that comes out at that price these days is 3DS games. I bet if he priced it at $20 he would have sold a ton of copies and more than made up the difference in volume.

I guess we'll see. Could see it on Humble Bundle before long.
i feel like the idea is for the game to be an investment

don't buy this game cos it's cheap or on discount, buy it if you're willing to commit to what it's asking of you, both in money and in mental fortitude or whatever
 

MUnited83

For you.
Wow, people are already platinum'ing The Witness...
I'm not sure if that's as impressive as I first thought when I saw it, but still... it's only been out for like 48 hours or something now, right?

Taking a look at it, it seems to be a pretty simple list, it only requires you to reach the ending per se, and I'm fairly sure you can reach it without doing every puzzle.
 

cyba89

Member
Taking a look at it, it seems to be a pretty simple list, it only requires you to reach the ending per se, and I'm fairly sure you can reach it without doing every puzzle.

Ending + a certain secret that is really late game, but you don't have to do everything in the game.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
No, no, it's too late for that. I meant he should have priced it at $20 to start.

Imagine the entire world is just 10 people and Jonathan Blow. Jonathan Blow wants to sell his game. He also has psychic powers and he can read everyone's mind and actually knows their true inner thoughts! Wow, that's cool! After reading everyone's mind, he finds out the following things:

3 people will never buy the Witness, they wouldn't even take it for free.
3 people will pay $5
2 people will pay $20
2 people will pay $40.

These are called reservation prices. In the real world, people don't exactly know their reservation prices and reservation prices can be manipulated; for example, if you're willing to buy something for $100, you probably wouldn't turn it down for $100.05. What's your true reservation price? But in this fake world, we will pretend all people have real, concrete reservation prices and Jonathan Blow can know them.

So the total amount of money he can make on his game is 2*$40 + 2*$20 + 3*$5 = $135.

If he prices his game at $5, he will make 7*5 = $35 and every sale will happen at launch. If he prices his game at $20 to begin with, he will make $80 upfront, and $15 when he eventually drops the game, for a total of $95. If he prices his game at $40 to begin with, he will make $80 upfront, $40 when he drops it to $20, and $15 when he drops it to $5, for a total of $135. $135 is a higher number than $95. If he prices his game at $60 to begin with, he makes $0 upfront, but $135 over time as he gradually lowers the price. This is called price stratification--you get all the sales you can get for the most people are willing to pay. One note: in the real world people also value revenue stability and there's time value of money/discount factors and a variety of other mathy things going on, but let's keep it at least this simple for now.

One complication is that the price people are willing to pay changes over time. There are some people who might be willing to pay more later. Maybe one of the people who will never buy the Witness gets into gaming later, and so will be willing to buy it later. Maybe one of the cheapskates gets a gift card and now is willing to pay more. In these cases, he wants to set his price high at first because waiting actually allows him to make more than the theoretical maximum of $135. But maybe a competing developer, like Knotty Bod, releases a game called The Fitness, and because Fitness games compete with open-world 3d adventures. Say the Witness is priced at $60, but now because the Fitness is out, 1 of the $40 sales revise down the amount they're willing to pay to $15, 1 of the $20 sales goes to $5, and 1 of the $5 sales drops off entirely. Okay so now as he drops the price, he only gets $90 instead of $135. This means that he set his price too high to begin with because if he set a lower price he'd have gotten more money.

In the real world, there are lots of people, Jonathan Blow probably does not have psychic powers, and actually people themselves don't know what their reservation prices are. So yes, this example was contrived, but it was contrived to illustrate how it's possible to price "too high" but also how pricing "too high" is the right move, as well as the fear you have that it's the wrong move.

Your claim is that he's set his price too high and that he'd make a lot more money at $20. So the position here is not only that most people don't want to pay $40, but also that the people who want to pay $20 are extremely weakly attached to the game and are going to move on if it's not $20 immediately. In other words, if the game is $20 during a summer sale and put on the front page, your position is that a large portion of the target audience is going to roll their eyes and move on.

I think we can think about the kinds of factors that play into whether people move on (i.e. revise the maximum price they'd tolerate down, potentially to 0). One is what kind of attention the game gets and what kind of reputation it gets. Currently it has a 90 on metacritic, high user reviews, lots of people posting screenshots and videos, lots of people talking about it. Notwithstanding the accessibility (motion sickness and colourblindness) issues, the reception of the game seems to be quite good. If the game had very bad reception, you would expect people to revise their price down--both owners of the game ("I regret spending this much, I want to have spent less") and prospective owners ("I was going to pick it up on a $30 sale, but now I don't want to as much."). No one wants to release a bad product, but if you do release a bad product, you probably want to frontload the sales before the product's reception negatively impacts peoples' reservation prices. But this is not a bad product.

Another example of real fear is competition. Now, competition can have various levels of indirection. Like, Netflix's shows are competing with the Witness. So are McDonald's hamburgers. And let's not kid ourselves, these are real, if there was a spike in food costs people would buy fewer games. Or they'd starve, I dunno, but I suspect people need food more than games. But in a more direct way, other games compete with the Witness. The most direct competition is games that appeal to the same kind of players, that are as good or better, that are coming out in the near future. The reason for this is that games released before now are already factoring into peoples' reservation price calculations. What is coming out that's like the Witness in the near future? Not a lot. What's coming out in the near future more generally? Not a lot, to be honest, notwithstanding the assload of people who keep making "ow my wallet" threads because they pay $60 for every half-baked turd pie that pops out of a AAAAA publisher. But I basically don't think there's a lot of evidence in terms of the kinds of games coming out to make us think that people will forget about the Witness.

The two main points you've raised are the following:
1) $40 is an unusual pricepoint for games more broadly. I'm not sure why, if that's true, he wouldn't be able to drop his price as he gets data and reap the sales he wants. But I also don't think it's true. What game in the last year looks the most like the Witness? Well, we'd want an adventure puzzle game with abstract themes and tons of content produced by a team that's big for an indie but small for a traditional AAA game. It's on consoles and PC. It's digital first but potentially going to get a retail release. I think the answer would be The Talos Principle. What did the Talos Principles launch at? $40. Has launching at $40 hurt its buzz? No. It's engaged in frequent discounting, as low as $10, and slowly picked up word of mouth. I would argue that peoples' reservation prices have actually moved up since launch because they did not have prior information about how good it is. I think Portal 2, which was $50/60, is also a point of comparison.

2) You don't want to pay $40. That's fine. There are lots of games where I want to pay about $5 for them. But how can I generalize this to other people? Well, I'd probably look at the game's sales and buzz -- we have no sales for the Witness yet (SteamSpy estimates are not yet stable), but anecdotally a ton of my friends list is playing it, a ton of people are talking about it, the GAF thread is growing quite a lot, it's getting a lot of reviews. Now this doesn't mean it wouldn't be selling more at a lower price, but there doesn't seem to be evidence that he dramatically overshot the launch price curve based on the indicators we do have. But even if he did, what reason to we have to believe the peoples' attention will move on faster than the price curve catches up?

It's definitely an interesting experiment and I'm looking forward to see if it worked, but I think concluding he screwed his entire company by launching at $40 instead of $20 is totally premature based on the kinds of considerations we'd actually use to evaluate that claim.

(I'd love any developers, publishers, or economists reading to weigh in with their thoughts both on the situation in general and the relative priorities in the game industry in terms of revenue maximization by price stratification versus frontloading sales).
 
Rise of the Tomb Raider is pretty great guys.
Especially if you loved the classics and kinda disappointed with the reboot. RotTR brings back Tomb Raider's feels and identity.
 

Dsyndrome

Member
So missed the challenge and a relic in Syria, guess I'll go back after beating the game. Wish I could do that from the get go, seeing as how that stuff doesn't effect the game really. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow had the right idea.
 

Phawx

Member
Stump Quote.

My views are the same. Basically if any indie *knows* they have something big on their hands, I believe they have a greater chance of having a high price and being firm on that. I.E. no discounts for X amount of time.

However, there are a bunch of indie games that are experimental or very me-too clones and the race to the bottom stuff happens pretty quickly.

Then you have the super indie games that are pretty much tip jars. On the plus side is the people that price their games at 19 cents and have trading cards. The dev can double dip from both ends and probably make some decent scratch that way. Edit: Usually big indicators are when Steam reviews are of the "Bought game and got the money back from the trading cards" variety.
 

Messiah

Member
So missed the challenge and a relic in Syria, guess I'll go back after beating the game. Wish I could do that from the get go, seeing as how that stuff doesn't effect the game really. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow had the right idea.

Can't you do that from the expeditions menu?
 

Lain

Member
Stump's been on a roll with explanation posts (just saw the one in the Insomniac thread). Always good stuff to read.
 

Ventara

Member
Has anyone here picked up the expansion for AoM, Tale of the Dragon? I was planning to pick it up today, but I've been reading there have been some problems with it. Not sure if this is just for people who have installed mods or not (I haven't installed any).
 

mp1990

Banned
Just finished Oxenfree, and gosh that ending was SO disappointing. Soured my entire experience, which otherwise would've been fantastic :( .
 

KenOD

a kinder, gentler sort of Scrooge
Just finished Oxenfree, and gosh that ending was SO disappointing. Soured my entire experience, which otherwise would've been fantastic :( .

Enough you wish you hadn't played the game at all, or just disappointed that it stopped being a good overall experience?
 
Just finished Oxenfree, and gosh that ending was SO disappointing. Soured my entire experience, which otherwise would've been fantastic :( .
Is Oxenfree missing a second act? That's what I keep hearing about it.

For such a story-based game, that seems like a big mistake.
Man I really wanted an early release time for RotTR. Ah well.

I see my cat pudding gif has made its rounds. That makes me happy.
Keep up the good work.

2aN746W.gif
 

lashman

Steam-GAF's Official Ambassador to Gaming-GAF
Rare's Xbox One Pirate Game Sea of Thieves Gets New Gameplay Details

"I run around and start hitting him with a fish."


Rare's upcoming multiplayer adventure game Sea of Thieves is expected to release this year, and some new details for the pirate romp have been teased.

Microsoft executive Aaron Greenberg talked to IGN about his experiences with Sea of Thieves, saying despite it being an early prototype version, its main draw of meeting people and going on adventures is already set in place.

Greenberg spoke about the game's freedom and cooperative gameplay, talking about an experience he had with Microsoft corporate VP Kudo Tsunoda.

"Kudo just jumps in the water and jumps onto another ship," Greenberg said. "He goes AWOL and then you don't see him for a while and then he comes back around and starts blasting cannons at their ship."

Greenberg's experiences seem to revolve around the silly and the fun, but he also talked about how his time with Microsoft Studios Europe manager Hanno Lemke in the game was more structured.

"I get on the ship and I run around and start hitting him with a fish," explained Greenberg. "And he's like, 'What are you doing? There's water down below. We've got to raise the anchor...' So he starts putting me to work."
 

mp1990

Banned
Enough you wish you hadn't played the game at all, or just disappointed that it stopped being a good overall experience?

No, i don't regret playing at all, but... this could've been especial. They had so much going for it, the artstyle was great, it matched the unwinding OST really well, the writing was damn good and the characters were believable, and the plot built a unmatched momentum since the start, with all those Lovecraftian touches that made it even more charming and mesmerizing... but then, at some point, seemed like the writers just got lazy (i HATE using this word in this context but i had to, sorry), and borked everything they had been building on so far. They wrapped all the mysteries on a unsatisfactory explanation, and just treated the player like they couldn't think by themselves, laying all the cards in the table SO FUCKING FAST you don't even have time to fully comprehend whats happening. Ugh. And, as if it couldn't get any worse, they throw a twist in the end (spoiler alert, i'll try to be vague but avoid if you're on media blackout)
that nullify all you've been doing in the past 5 hours
. I really, REALLY wanna love this game, but with all this shitshow that was the ending I'm not sure if i can recommend it for full price with a straight face.

EDIT: Also, it suffers from the same problem as Life Is Strange, were all your choices throughout the game boils down to two different paths in the end (well, they do have some impact in some dialogue here and there, but it's so minimal and unremarkable one could easily miss those details). I don't really mind it that much as everyone else, as I care more about the journey than anything else, but in this game they made this dilemma so evident it completely breaks the immersion.
 

jshackles

Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
Married GAF: don't make the same mistake I just did. Don't tell your wife "Rise of the Tomb Raider is one of the best looking games I've ever played..."

If you need me, I'll be on the couch tonight.
Not really though.
 
Married GAF: don't make the same mistake I just did. Don't tell your wife "Rise of the Tomb Raider is one of the best looking games I've ever played..."

If you need me, I'll be on the couch tonight.
Not really though.

Unless your wife is a game, I fail to see how she could logically take offense to your statement, ser. :)
 

Dsyndrome

Member
Married GAF: don't make the same mistake I just did. Don't tell your wife "Rise of the Tomb Raider is one of the best looking games I've ever played..."

If you need me, I'll be on the couch tonight.
Not really though.

I told my wife I needed to protect her and she rolled her eyes like she always does.
 
Married GAF: don't make the same mistake I just did. Don't tell your wife "Rise of the Tomb Raider is one of the best looking games I've ever played..."

If you need me, I'll be on the couch tonight.
Not really though.

Thanks for the warning, but fortunately it's not a problem for me. :p
My wife is actually the one who is playing the game. She prefers kb/m for games so I'm basically just sitting beside here pushing the screenshot button on my xbox controller.
 

SSPssp

Member
Is this new for Humble Bundle? Don't recall seeing it before.

xSJw28A.png

Its the first time I've seen it too. Its probably because of the $40 tier which has the focus selection pack. They don't want to give you multiple copies of most of the games.

Its strange they didn't separate it out, but I guess they thought they'd make more this way.
 

Dsyndrome

Member
There have been three separate patches to The Witness in five hours. I don't know whether to applaud or yell at them to accumulate to one a day, only one was game-breaking.
 
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