Support NeoGAF

[Parsnip]

i think thimbleweed park is gonna disappoint a lot of people

That's my feeling as well, but I hope to be wrong.
Gilbert's track record hasn't exactly been great as of late, Deathspank and Cave come to mind at least. I can't really think of the last good game he had his hands in to be honest.

 

[Teggy]

Rain World is sitting at 68 on opencritic.com

PASS

Welcome tbh. Managed to finish Hollow Knight with my controller intact, and didn't need another must-play game like that so soon.

 

[prudislav]

Rain World is sitting at 68 on opencritic.com

PASS

wonder if at least 20% of reviewers got to the end of the game or gave up


all in all its mostly because of difficulty which is easilly tweakable by the patch, also some reviews are weird ... texts reads way too positive with 5s and 6s in the end

 

[gngf123]

I'm actually kind of put off by Rain World now.

I love the idea in theory, and I'm okay with the game wanting to destroy me, but knowing that I can get RNG'ed into completely impossible, unavoidable situations - and that this is something that even the developers admit can happen - just kills it.

 

[CecilRousso]

i think thimbleweed park is gonna disappoint a lot of people

I hope it doesn't. Jason Schreier said he was playing in the last episode of the Kotaku Splitscreen podcast, and called it "incredible".

 

[prudislav]

@gngf123
well the point of the game is that you are at the bottom of the foodchain in AI-driven environment ... so getting to insane situations is kinda part of the atmosphere aka the middlefinger to nowadays "survival" games which after short amount of time goes from survival to power-fantasy

I just hope that after these reviews they dont make it way too easy with patches :-/

 

[LurkerPrime]

I'm actually kind of put off by Rain World now.

I love the idea in theory, and I'm okay with the game wanting to destroy me, but knowing that I can get RNG'ed into completely impossible, unavoidable situations - and that this is something that even the developers admit can happen - just kills it.

Yeah I was browsing the OT and that kinda killed my interest, too. It's really bad to have a game that feels like it has unfair game mechanics by design. Like XCOM is brilliant in how it straddles that line of unfair-yet-fairness, brutalising the player while still giving them room to succeed, or even flourish. But arbitrary you-rolled-a-five-you-died-styled game mechanics, wholly arbitrary, are just awful.

Especially in what I understand is a platformer, losing minutes of progress.

On the other hand, hella cool aesthetic. I want to see slugcats prosper in spite of the reviews...

 

[Wok]

The OT for Snake Pass is up.

 

[trailmix16]

I hope it doesn't. Jason Schreier said he was playing in the last episode of the Kotaku Splitscreen podcast, and called it "incredible".

interesting, I played through the first few acts and didn't get much

there are some design decisions that don't make a lot of sense gameplay wise

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

I'm actually kind of put off by Rain World now.

I love the idea in theory, and I'm okay with the game wanting to destroy me, but knowing that I can get RNG'ed into completely impossible, unavoidable situations - and that this is something that even the developers admit can happen - just kills it.

The Gods Will Be Watching devs learned very quickly after launch how few players appreciate letting RNG and nonexistent signposting create impossible situations that wipe significant amounts of laborious progress. Depending on how much traction the negative aspects get, it will be something that the Rain World devs might have to come to terms with as well. I'm never against the idea of a game being inherently difficult, but that's not the sort of thing that should be left up to chance, instead of being governed by rules and proper design that allow the player to overcome even its hardest challenges if they've paid any attention to the depth your gameplay systems have.

A few posts in the OT have quotes from the devs, who have taken feedback from streamers and reviewers and have already begun considering what changes will need to be made for controls or increasing player awareness of certain things they can and can't do. I really only have a passive interest in it, since I'm not a fan of platformers, but I hope for the best. It's been in dev for such a long time, and I'd hate for it to flop because it does too much to antagonize players.

 

[MUnited83]

Don't treat it as a regular platform. It's a hardcore survival metroidvania, and does a great job of doing exactly that. I don't think there's much of a "getting RNG'ed into completely impossible, unavoidable situations" there at all. There might be a bullshit kill here and there, but most of the time you have lots of ways to tackle the situations that are presented to you. I hope they only patch a couple of things and don't change the game too much. It's amazing as it is, with a few flaws.

 

[Arthea]

He is damn right. The more time flows, the more I agree with this statement. 20€ is the new black.

Spoiler

I don't care about inflation.

list

now you are not including Cosmic Star Heroine to that list.
what kind of blasphemy is that? It's not the first time you omit the best game too

 

[Se7enSword]

Cleared route A of NieR Automata. Didn't realize i was already at the last stage, would've completed some quests i saved for later.

I'll tackle

Spoiler

route B

tomorrow.

 

[paperspace]

Fukin hell, dude. I was so hyped for Rain World, and have been for so long.

What should I buy instead? Hollow Knight?

 

[JaseC]

Back when titan was still a thing and steam hasn't really taken off yet, it was well known the plan for battle.net was to become what Steam became. No reason actiblizz wouldn't still have thoughts along those lines. After all, they still cling to always online for the pc version of Diablo 3. The better question would be, why not co-brand Destiny 2 as a Blizzard game and tap into that mmo market?

I understand the sentiment that Destiny is popular enough for the sequel to act as a pillar for Acti's own platform, but if Battle.net were a part of that plan, it'd still be named so. The rebranding is the clearest sign yet that Blizzard has no intention of distributing non-Blizzard games via Battle.net Blizzard (the other one being the fact that the leaked roadmap you allude to is now seven years old).

 

[MUnited83]

Fukin hell, dude. I was so hyped for Rain World, and have been for so long.

What should I buy instead? Hollow Knight?

Buy Rain World.

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

Don't treat it as a regular platform. It's a hardcore survival metroidvania, and does a great job of doing exactly that. I don't think there's much of a "getting RNG'ed into completely impossible, unavoidable situations" there at all. There might be a bullshit kill here and there, but most of the time you have lots of ways to tackle the situations that are presented to you. I hope they only patch a couple of things and don't change the game too much. It's amazing as it is, with a few flaws.

The devs have admitted as such that it is possible, and a part of the game's design, to create impossible situations. I'm sure they are very rare, but they've given examples on how specific people they watched were completely screwed from the outset, while others had better rolls and didn't experience the game at its worst. That's where my problem comes in, not just because it is touted as being a difficult game.

They are aware that this is not the best way to go about it, but I worry that not realizing this before the game started getting into the hands of others will have a lasting negative effect if the numbers go wrong for too many people.

 

[Corpekata]

If Activision wanted to move into that arena they would need to release more games. It's going to be years for another Blizzard game. Call of Duty doesn't have the draw to support anything on PC anymore.

The timing just doesn't make sense for them to push into it.

 

[Nabs]

Fukin hell, dude. I was so hyped for Rain World, and have been for so long.

What should I buy instead? Hollow Knight?

I love Hollow Knight. It's worth all the hype.

RW is still on my radar, but I'm going to wait to hear more opinions on it.

 

[GoldandBlue]

Personally gonna hold off on Rain World and grab Snake Pass this week instead. I still need to get Hollow Knight at some point.

 

[Jawmuncher]

If Activision wanted to move into that arena they would need to release more games. It's going to be years for another Blizzard game. Call of Duty doesn't have the draw to support anything on PC anymore.

The timing just doesn't make sense for them to push into it.

Agreed. They're gonna keep blizzard seperate due to the "quality" the developer carries with their own service. They'll stick to using steam for PC due to their small amount of releases and no real reason to push in that direction.

 

[LurkerPrime]

The Gods Will Be Watching devs learned very quickly after launch how few players appreciate letting RNG and nonexistent signposting create impossible situations that wipe significant amounts of laborious progress. Depending on how much traction the negative aspects get, it will be something that the Rain World devs might have to come to terms with as well. I'm never against the idea of a game being inherently difficult, but that's not the sort of thing that should be left up to chance, instead of being governed by rules and proper design that allow the player to overcome even its hardest challenges if they've paid any attention to the depth your gameplay systems have.

A few posts in the OT have quotes from the devs, who have taken feedback from streamers and reviewers and have already begun considering what changes will need to be made for controls or increasing player awareness of certain things they can and can't do. I really only have a passive interest in it, since I'm not a fan of platformers, but I hope for the best. It's been in dev for such a long time, and I'd hate for it to flop because it does too much to antagonize players.

That's the thing though: arbitrary deaths aren't difficulty or challenge, they're just random. It's masochistic fun, if it is ever fun at all--it is an abusive kind game design. "You will play this until we decide you can pass."


From the RPS WIT of Rain World, I actually get the sense it's going for a Zelda: Breath of the Wild (or perhaps, Toki Tori 2+) kind of exploration and discovery, only without the sublime design that makes those games such forces to be reckoned with. They, you see, have signposting (as in, puzzles) everywhere to uncover new mechanics--it's just up to the player to recognise them and try something. BotW in particular also has loading screen tips and NPCs that illucidate things further. Both are really good at what they do in terms of naturalistic, non-verbal teaching.

...Yes, everyone should play Toki Tori 2+, the Dark Souls of puzzle-platformers. Forego the white meatball for the yellow one.

 

[Wok]

how specific people they watched were completely screwed from the outset

The linked paragraph could almost fit another game:

"We had one streamer who opened up the game and the RNG wasn't with her and so it was extremely difficult. It was a bunch of no-win situations that she was presented with really early on. And she's just like 'screw this, I'm not playing this game, it's impossible'," Sean tells me. "And then you'll have another player who'll get into it and the algorithm will provide a pretty clear path at the beginning and so they're like 'this game is pretty cool'," he adds. "So, yes, dice rolls."

No Man's Sky, it still needs tweaking, and its creators know this. But it's a careful balance that they're looking to hit as tipping the game too far one way could compromise the second idea that sits at the heart of the game."

 

[MUnited83]

The devs have admitted as such that it is possible, and a part of the game's design, to create impossible situations. I'm sure they are very rare, but they've given examples on how specific people they watched were completely screwed from the outset, while others had better rolls and didn't experience the game at its worst. That's where my problem comes in, not just because it is touted as being a difficult game.

They are aware that this is not the best way to go about it, but I worry that not realizing this before the game started getting into the hands of others will have a lasting negative effect if the numbers go wrong for too many people.

I don't think those were as much as impossible situations, but more like some unreasonably difficult situations that are way too hard for people beggining the game. Once you're in tune with the mechanics of the game, I think "impossible" situations will be quite rare. There'a lot of leeway on what you can do and how to move around.

 

[Regginator]

We need to kill off that meme and introduce this

 

[Arthea]

you all should buy
instead, that I have someone to talk to about the game

releases in two weeks already, time flies

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

That's the thing though: arbitrary deaths aren't difficulty or challenge, they're just random. It's masochistic fun, if it is ever fun at all--it is an abusive kind game design. "You will play this until we decide you can pass."


From the RPS WIT of Rain World, I actually get the sense it's going for a Zelda: Breath of the Wild (or perhaps, Toki Tori 2+) kind of exploration and discovery, only without the sublime design that makes those games such forces to be reckoned with. They, you see, have signposting (as in, puzzles) everywhere to uncover new mechanics--it's just up to the player to recognise them and try something. BotW in particular also has loading screen tips and NPCs that illucidate things further. Both are really good at what they do in terms of naturalistic, non-verbal teaching.

...Yes, everyone should play Toki Tori 2+, the Dark Souls of puzzle-platformers. Forego the white meatball for the yellow one.

I'm always open to the idea of attempting more masochistic game design, in hopes that someone finally figures out a way that really makes it work. I can't exactly speak for Rain World's approach, but it sounds like there are good ideas that are held back by potentially poor decisions. Time will tell if players can find out how to adjust to what the devs set out to do, and if they don't, how much the devs will need to adjust to create a better experience.

The linked paragraph could almost fit another game:

I feel like this is a bit dismissive, considering that this portion highlights that the devs are aware that the game's design might not be good or healthy. If it were strictly an opinion piece, that would be different!

I don't think those were as much as impossible situations, but more like some unreasonably difficult situations that are way too hard for people beggining the game. Once you're in tune with the mechanics of the game, I think "impossible" situations will be quite rare. There'a lot of leeway on what you can do and how to move around.

I mean, this is coming from the mouths of the devs themselves. What you think isn't what they know is going on in the background, you know? By their own admission, your experience would be very different from someone who got very bad rolls. You can't speak on their behalf because, by the rules dictated by the RNG, you didn't get what they ended up with.

In any case, I don't really feel like discussing this much further. My own interest in the game is minimal, beyond hoping the game does well - as I do for almost any game. As always, I'm glad to see that some people enjoy what it offers!

 

[LurkerPrime]

The linked paragraph could almost fit another game:

Not really. Most games are, you know, designed, rather than generated. I'm even talking about roguelikes here.

Nuclear Throne, a roguelike twin-stick shooter, for example, is fair all the way up to the throne. RNG can help or hinder you, but it never completely screws you over--weapons, health, and ammo are always around when you need them (and are in fact weighted to appear more often when you're low). No matter how random the stages are, they're always reigned in enough to make the game fun rather than frustrating; you'll never, say, start beside an exploding barrel, get shot at, and die immedately.

Randomness for its own sake is just bad. It has to compliment the game itself somehow. Rain World may do this to some degree, but if it's boxing the player into arbitrarily unwinnable scenarios, then it is tuned wrong. There's no lessons to be learned or fun to be had from "press restart, level impossible."

 

[Parsnip]

Souls time.

 

[Wok]

I feel like this is a bit dismissive, considering that this portion highlights that the devs are aware that the game's design might not be good or healthy. If it were strictly an opinion piece, that would be different!

I'm not trying to dismiss anything. I'm just finding it funny that it is a paragraph which could apply to a bunch of procedural games.

Not really. Most games are, you know, designed, rather than generated. I'm even talking about roguelikes here.

Nuclear Throne, a roguelike twin-stick shooter, for example, is fair all the way up to the throne. RNG can help or hinder you, but it never completely screws you over--weapons, health, and ammo are always around when you need them (and are in fact weighted to appear more often when you're low). No matter how random the stages are, they're always reigned in enough to make the game fun rather than frustrating; you'll never, say, start beside an exploding barrel, get shot at, and die immedately.

Randomness for its own sake is just bad. It has to compliment the game itself somehow. Rain World may do this to some degree, but if it's boxing the player into arbitrarily unwinnable scenarios, then it is tuned wrong. There's no lessons to be learned or fun to be had from "press restart, level impossible."

I agree wholeheartedly. Getting procedural generation of levels right requires a lot of thought and polish.

 

[Nabs]

you all should buy
instead, that I have someone to talk to about the game

releases in two weeks already, time flies

I picked it up a long time ago. I'll be there.

 

[maty]

...Yes, everyone should play Toki Tori 2+, the Dark Souls of puzzle-platformers. Forego the white meatball for the yellow one.

I couldn't agree more, Toki Tori 2+ is amazing. I'm not sure where Dark Souls comes into the equation, but everyone should play it.

Obligatory
Sequence Breaking with Toki Tori 2 | Game Maker's Toolkit

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

I'm not trying to dismiss anything. I'm just finding it funny that it is a paragraph which could apply to a bunch of procedural games.

That was a misread on my part then, sorry!

 

[Arthea]

I picked it up a long time ago. I'll be there.

have you played any of Phantasy Star games?
Just curious

 

[Nabs]

have you played any of Phantasy Star games?
Just curious

Nope. I missed a lot of the classic RPGs growing up. I do want to get to PSIV sometime.

 

[MUnited83]

I'm always open to the idea of attempting more masochistic game design, in hopes that someone finally figures out a way that really makes it work. I can't exactly speak for Rain World's approach, but it sounds like there are good ideas that are held back by potentially poor decisions. Time will tell if players can find out how to adjust to what the devs set out to do, and if they don't, how much the devs will need to adjust to create a better experience.



I feel like this is a bit dismissive, considering that this portion highlights that the devs are aware that the game's design might not be good or healthy. If it were strictly an opinion piece, that would be different!



I mean, this is coming from the mouths of the devs themselves. What you think isn't what they know is going on in the background, you know? By their own admission, your experience would be very different from someone who got very bad rolls. You can't speak on their behalf because, by the rules dictated by the RNG, you didn't get what they ended up with.

In any case, I don't really feel like discussing this much further. My own interest in the game is minimal, beyond hoping the game does well - as I do for almost any game. As always, I'm glad to see that some people enjoy what it offers!

Well, having actually played the game, I don't think they mean literally 100% impossible. I don't believe that's a common ocurrence at all.

I agree wholeheartedly. Getting procedural generation of levels right requires a lot of thought and polish.
I'm not trying to dismiss anything. I'm just finding it funny that it is a paragraph which could apply to a bunch of procedural games.

The creature behaviour and animation is procedural, but all the rooms are designed by hand. Every single one.

 

[Lain]

The gaming side thread about it threw me for such a loop. The last thing I expected people to take issue with the game was the art, but yet.

People take issues with the art? That's weird, the art in Hollow Knight is really good and really on point to create the right kind of atmosphere.

 

[prudislav]

Getting procedural generation of levels right requires a lot of thought and polish.

from what i understood ... in Rain World levels are handmade ... whats procedural is the AI-diven ecosystem and creature behavior

 

[someguyinahat]

Nobody's touching those hidden object games up there, but I already got one...

I'll wait a bit longer before grabbing the others.

 

[Wok]

The creature behaviour and animation is procedural, but all the rooms are designed by hand. Every single one.

from what i understood ... in Rain World levels are handmade ... whats procedural is the AI-diven ecosystem and creature behavior

Ah, this is an interesting design decision.

 

[sixteen-bit]

The OT for Snake Pass is up.

nice, that header really pops

 

[gngf123]

I like the avatars of the folks in your friend list who have also played it.

The gaming side thread about it threw me for such a loop. The last thing I expected people to take issue with the game was the art, but yet.

That caught me off guard too.

Sometimes I don't understand gaming side.

 

[spindoctor]

Anyone got a quick tip on where to go and how to access the new Souls dlc?

 

[D3RANG3D]

:3

 

[dave is ok]

Anyone got a quick tip on where to go and how to access the new Souls dlc?

The last area in either the base game or the DLC

 

[fluffydelusions]

 

[Creamium]

Only have to the final boss in Jotun. Enjoyed this game, especially the bosses. The stages are interesting in that it's just traversal with some light puzzling. One real annoyance is that you're so slow, I wanted to use the speed power constantly

 

[Deleted member 59090]

...Yes, everyone should play Toki Tori 2+, the Dark Souls of puzzle-platformers. Forego the white meatball for the yellow one.

This. Toki Tori 2+ is secretly the best metroidvania.

 

[someguyinahat]

:3

This game is relevant to my interests.

 

[Granjinha]

Don't treat it as a regular platform. It's a hardcore survival metroidvania, and does a great job of doing exactly that. I don't think there's much of a "getting RNG'ed into completely impossible, unavoidable situations" there at all. There might be a bullshit kill here and there, but most of the time you have lots of ways to tackle the situations that are presented to you. I hope they only patch a couple of things and don't change the game too much. It's amazing as it is, with a few flaws.

Yeah, i'm 100% with you on this. There were some rare occasions where i thought "yeah i couldn't do anything here", but they were really scarse.

The devs have admitted as such that it is possible, and a part of the game's design, to create impossible situations. I'm sure they are very rare, but they've given examples on how specific people they watched were completely screwed from the outset, while others had better rolls and didn't experience the game at its worst. That's where my problem comes in, not just because it is touted as being a difficult game.

They are aware that this is not the best way to go about it, but I worry that not realizing this before the game started getting into the hands of others will have a lasting negative effect if the numbers go wrong for too many people.

But that's a given if the games has procedural and random elements in it (in this case, the creatures behaviour)

Spelunky also had some situations like this. Is it bad becaues of that? Of course not.