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[Mr Reasonable]

Yeah, totally. They seem benign but her breakdown shows what is going through her head. She had to make a call to cover the game and thought she could take the disaproval, but now it seems like a big mistake, she's got to make a bunch of replies trying to compromise and explain herself on twitter yada yada yada she's losing sleep over it and boom.

Can't have been that bad, they streamed it for 7 more hours after the "breakdown" and then the next day too.

In my opinion, the comments I've seen are benign. Possibly the mildest disapproval of anything I've ever seen on the internet ever.

As I said above, to focus on her getting a bit upset because they didn't manage to offset the upset they knew they were creating is missing the point.

 

[Crayon]

Can't have been that bad, they streamed it the next day too.

That's exactly it. It wasn't that bad. A girl got emotional and cried for a bit. Now you are right that if there is any evidence of people being real monsters, i have not seen it. But as far as her having a bad few days that boiled over when they were live? That's understandable.

 

[mrmustard]

Can't have been that bad, they streamed it the next day too. After the breakdown, they streamed it for 7 more hours on the first day too.

I don't want to imply anything but if i was a streamer i would ask friends to bully me and my GF to cry: Attention, clicks, new subscribers.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

That's exactly it. It wasn't that bad. A girl got emotional and cried for a bit. Now you are right that if there is any evidence of people being real monsters, i have not seen it. But as far as her having a bad few days that boiled over when they were live? That's understandable.

Sure, but I think that this whole thing is being misunderstood. The tone seems to be:

"poor girl gets bullied to tears by hate mob"

When really I think it's:

"girl aligns herself with anti trans figure and gets upset when some people mildly and civilly express disappointment"

And as such, I don't really know why people are coming out in sympathy for her, unless you think that trans people aren't worthy of any consideration. If that's the case, I can see why you might only focus on her upset, but I'm not sure anyone would be brave enough to say something so despicable.

I think the other thing that might have gone unsaid is that they may be sympathetic to trans people, as evidenced by the guy claiming to be an ally on the stream, and the charity collection (does anyone know how much they raised, btw?). But after seeing the reaction they got, they realised that streaming the game was more of a symbol of anti trans sentiment than they initially thought and felt sad for the upset they were causing.

However, I think it's more likely that they got a code for a big game that they thought would be popular, would get them more views and increase their income. They knew that the game was already connected to JKR's attitude to trans people, and though they may wish no ill will to trans people, were prepared to align themselves with anti trans sentiment in order to get a couple of good days viewing figures. They continued to get pushback and cried about it after an hour of streaming.

I would say this is possibly because they realised they'd done something they felt ashamed of (if they are sincere about considering themselves allies) but they continued to stream for another 7 hours and did it again the next day, which undermines their claim. As such you might say that they felt they were doing harm but decided it wasn't important and went ahead anyway.

So, is that worth compassion? your attitude to other people's right to be treated with respect and compassion probably informs this. I think it'd be better all around if they'd not got upset, which could have happened if they had considered other people's feelings when accepting the code from the publisher or when they got pushback when announcing the stream, or before starting the stream, or during the stream. But they didn't and here we are.

 

[RafterXL]

Sure, but I think that this whole thing is being misunderstood. The tone seems to be:

"poor girl gets bullied to tears by hate mob"

When really I think it's:

"girl aligns herself with anti trans figure and gets upset when some people mildly and civilly express disappointment"

And as such, I don't really know why people are coming out in sympathy for her, unless you think that trans people aren't worthy of any consideration. If that's the case, I can see why you might only focus on her upset, but I'm not sure anyone would be brave enough to say something so despicable.

I think the other thing that might have gone unsaid is that they may be sympathetic to trans people, as evidenced by the guy claiming to be an ally on the stream, and the charity collection (does anyone know how much they raised, btw?). But after seeing the reaction they got, they realised that streaming the game was more of a symbol of anti trans sentiment than they initially thought and felt sad for the upset they were causing.

However, I think it's more likely that they got a code for a big game that they thought would be popular, would get them more views and increase their income. They knew that the game was already connected to JKR's attitude to trans people, and though they may wish no ill will to trans people, were prepared to align themselves with anti trans sentiment in order to get a couple of good days viewing figures. They continued to get pushback and cried about it after an hour of streaming.

I would say this is possibly because they realised they'd done something they felt ashamed of (if they are sincere about considering themselves allies) but they continued to stream for another 7 hours and did it again the next day, which undermines their claim. As such you might say that they felt they were doing harm but decided it wasn't important and went ahead anyway.

So, is that worth compassion? your attitude to other people's right to be treated with respect and compassion probably informs this. I think it'd be better all around if they'd not got upset, which could have happened if they had considered other people's feelings when accepting the code from the publisher or when they got pushback when announcing the stream, or before starting the stream, or during the stream. But they didn't and here we are.

Are you kidding me?

First off, unless you have a copy of their stream that you made while it was happening you'll never see the abuse they got because when you ban users the comments disappear and don'tshow up in replays. No one is talking about Twitter comments, they were talking about comments made during stream. People were so pathetic that even when GR went to Sub only mode, they started subscribing to fling shit at them.

Second, this is exactly why you don't want to be an "ally" to these people. Girlfriend Reviews ate shit defending the trans community during the TLoU2 fiaso and these clowns gladly let them do it. Now suddenly they're more useful being the bad guys so that's what they are being painted as. It doesn't matter what you've done for them, you're just a useful idiot who will be disposed of the second they decide they don't need you anymore.

It's awfully convenient that everyone is trying to dissect this when you know damn well that if the shoe was on the other foot, Twitter and the usual suspects would be condemning this. Just like the doxxing, the death threats, and all the other shit that these same people ALWAYS condemn but are now doing themselves. But not this week. No, this week all of that shit is fair game. Wonder why?

 

[Dr.Morris79]

Wait so people who want everyone to be treated with respect and all that jazz have made a site that basically doxxes Streamers who play this game so that other self righteous people can attack them and treat them with respect and all that jazz.
Or is there a part of this im missing?



How do they not see the Irony in this?

They're autistic. Ever tried to reason with someone who is autistic? Dont bother.

A heavily autistic person is akin to an actual adult toddler. Most of these people vary on the scale but it's there and it is a mental illness.

What we should be asking is what was in the food or water that caused this mass autism on a global scale. This is the real question and one I think we'd all be interested in.

 

[Satansblade]

Sure, but I think that this whole thing is being misunderstood. The tone seems to be:

"poor girl gets bullied to tears by hate mob"

When really I think it's:

"girl aligns herself with anti trans figure and gets upset when some people mildly and civilly express disappointment"

And as such, I don't really know why people are coming out in sympathy for her, unless you think that trans people aren't worthy of any consideration. If that's the case, I can see why you might only focus on her upset, but I'm not sure anyone would be brave enough to say something so despicable.

I think the other thing that might have gone unsaid is that they may be sympathetic to trans people, as evidenced by the guy claiming to be an ally on the stream, and the charity collection (does anyone know how much they raised, btw?). But after seeing the reaction they got, they realised that streaming the game was more of a symbol of anti trans sentiment than they initially thought and felt sad for the upset they were causing.

However, I think it's more likely that they got a code for a big game that they thought would be popular, would get them more views and increase their income. They knew that the game was already connected to JKR's attitude to trans people, and though they may wish no ill will to trans people, were prepared to align themselves with anti trans sentiment in order to get a couple of good days viewing figures. They continued to get pushback and cried about it after an hour of streaming.

I would say this is possibly because they realised they'd done something they felt ashamed of (if they are sincere about considering themselves allies) but they continued to stream for another 7 hours and did it again the next day, which undermines their claim. As such you might say that they felt they were doing harm but decided it wasn't important and went ahead anyway.

So, is that worth compassion? your attitude to other people's right to be treated with respect and compassion probably informs this. I think it'd be better all around if they'd not got upset, which could have happened if they had considered other people's feelings when accepting the code from the publisher or when they got pushback when announcing the stream, or before starting the stream, or during the stream. But they didn't and here we are.

When you are attacking people for playing a game, you absolutely aren't worth consideration. Trans people aren't the sacred cow they want us to pretend they are.

 

[SSfox]

 

[iorek21]

It’s funny because the woke mob is usually the group that proudly talk about LOVE and DEMOCRACY and ANTIFASCISM.

… but they always end up being the fascists.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Are you kidding me?

First off, unless you have a copy of their stream that you made while it was happening you'll never see the abuse they got because when you ban users the comments disappear and don'tshow up in replays. No one is talking about Twitter comments, they were talking about comments made during stream. People were so pathetic that even when GR went to Sub only mode, they started subscribing to fling shit at them.

Second, this is exactly why you don't want to be an "ally" to these people. Girlfriend Reviews ate shit defending the trans community during the TLoU2 fiaso and these clowns gladly let them do it. Now suddenly they're more useful being the bad guys so that's what they are being painted as. It doesn't matter what you've done for them, you're just a useful idiot who will be disposed of the second they decide they don't need you anymore.

It's awfully convenient that everyone is trying to dissect this when you know damn well that if the shoe was on the other foot, Twitter and the usual suspects would be condemning this. Just like the doxxing, the death threats, and all the other shit that these same people ALWAYS condemn but are now doing themselves. But not this week. No, this week all of that shit is fair game. Wonder why?

I'm not kidding you, no. I don't use Twitch and didn't know that the transcript would be incomplete from the stream. That wasn't clear to me, good to know!

Are you saying they got death threats and were doxxed?

 

[Mr Reasonable]

When you are attacking people for playing a game, you absolutely aren't worth consideration. Trans people aren't the sacred cow they want us to pretend they are.

All trans people were attacking them?

I'd say that trans people are the opposite of a sacred cow, tbh. They're people that experience open hostility and criticism simply for existing.

 

[FF:Enhanced_Reality]

All trans people were attacking them?

I'd say that trans people are the opposite of a sacred cow, tbh. They're people that experience open hostility and criticism simply for existing.

This conversation is golden. Really hope your guys continue your discourse.

 

[Ozriel]

Sure, but I think that this whole thing is being misunderstood. The tone seems to be:

"poor girl gets bullied to tears by hate mob"

When really I think it's:

"girl aligns herself with anti trans figure and gets upset when some people mildly and civilly express disappointment"

And as such, I don't really know why people are coming out in sympathy for her, unless you think that trans people aren't worthy of any consideration. If that's the case, I can see why you might only focus on her upset, but I'm not sure anyone would be brave enough to say something so despicable.

I think the other thing that might have gone unsaid is that they may be sympathetic to trans people, as evidenced by the guy claiming to be an ally on the stream, and the charity collection (does anyone know how much they raised, btw?). But after seeing the reaction they got, they realised that streaming the game was more of a symbol of anti trans sentiment than they initially thought and felt sad for the upset they were causing.

However, I think it's more likely that they got a code for a big game that they thought would be popular, would get them more views and increase their income. They knew that the game was already connected to JKR's attitude to trans people, and though they may wish no ill will to trans people, were prepared to align themselves with anti trans sentiment in order to get a couple of good days viewing figures. They continued to get pushback and cried about it after an hour of streaming.

I would say this is possibly because they realised they'd done something they felt ashamed of (if they are sincere about considering themselves allies) but they continued to stream for another 7 hours and did it again the next day, which undermines their claim. As such you might say that they felt they were doing harm but decided it wasn't important and went ahead anyway.

You're really claim that millions of people who are playing a well made RPG in a popular IP they grew up watching and/or reading are basically "aligning themselves to anti-trans sentiment".

I don't buy the talk about how JK profits from the sales of the game. She's already incredibly rich, with a net worth approaching a billion pounds. A few million dollars doesn't dramatically move the needle for her in terms of lifestyle, reach or whatever. People putting down $70 to play the game aren't funding her ideologies or philosophies or whatever. She's got enough cash for that.

I think it'd be better all around if they'd not got upset, which could have happened if they had considered other people's feelings when accepting the code from the publisher or when they got pushback when announcing the stream, or before starting the stream, or during the stream.

It would have been better if they didn't get abused. Victim blaming is certainly not what you should be doing in 2023

 

[gaming_again]

All trans people were attacking them?

I'd say that trans people are the opposite of a sacred cow, tbh. They're people that experience open hostility and criticism simply for existing.

Lolwut.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

You're really claim that millions of people who are playing a well made RPG in a popular IP they grew up watching and/or reading are basically "aligning themselves to anti-trans sentiment".

No I'm definitely not saying that. The problem with these conversations is that some people get very heated and jump to conclusions, which I think you have done here. It's especially easy to do here because this woman has got upset and nobody wants that.

I'm not saying that liking Harry Potter is problematic, nor am I saying that buying the game to play and enjoy is a terrible thing. My girlfriend likes Harry Potter, we've been to Hogwarts at Universal Studios, I think she's been to the play and the studio tour. I think she's a lovely person.

However, it was well known that the game was being set up to be some sort of battleground. I don't know how this came about but if it was something that was championed by Trans and people supportive of trans people, I think that was a really unwise thing to do since the game looked good for quite a while before it was released, but it's quite clear that some people took their positions on the game with gusto, both those offering to buy extra copies to stick it to people they didn't care for and the people who said that nobody should have anything to do with it.

As a result, it has become a politicised item.

It doesn't matter if you don't think a game can possibly be political or if you have access to JKR's bank statements or not.

And ultimately you inadvertently pick a side when you choose to stream this game. Some people will say that isn't what happens, but this is evidently what has happened here.

If you help to promote a product that benefits JKR you must accept that the thing that she has become very well known for is her stance on trans people, and that you are on some level saying you're ok with that.

That's what I meant by aligning themselves with anti trans sentiment.

It would have been better if they didn't get abused. Victim blaming is certainly not what you should be doing in 2023

I agree, and as I've said a couple of times, I think it's a shame that they were upset, I don't approve of people being unkind, but I think that the anti trans movement is causing more upset and misery than a few comments on their stream, which is why I think the focus of the story is off.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Lolwut.

Which part do you want to debate?

 

[Ozriel]

No I'm definitely not saying that. The problem with these conversations is that some people get very heated and jump to conclusions, which I think you have done here. It's especially easy to do here because this woman has got upset and nobody wants that.

I'm not saying that liking Harry Potter is problematic, nor am I saying that buying the game to play and enjoy is a terrible thing. My girlfriend likes Harry Potter, we've been to Hogwarts at Universal Studios, I think she's been to the play and the studio tour. I think she's a lovely person.

However, it was well known that the game was being set up to be some sort of battleground. I don't know how this came about but if it was something that was championed by Trans and people supportive of trans people, I think that was a really unwise thing to do since the game looked good for quite a while before it was released, but it's quite clear that some people took their positions on the game with gusto, both those offering to buy extra copies to stick it to people they didn't care for and the people who said that nobody should have anything to do with it.

As a result, it has become a politicised item.

It doesn't matter if you don't think a game can possibly be political or if you have access to JKR's bank statements or not.

And ultimately you inadvertently pick a side when you choose to stream this game. Some people will say that isn't what happens, but this is evidently what has happened here.

Asking someone to give up playing and enjoying a product because some other people have turned it into a battleground doesn't really make sense.

If you help to promote a product that benefits JKR you must accept that the thing that she has become very well known for is her stance on trans people, and that you are on some level saying you're ok with that.

No. the narrative from many people who are being bullied is that they're merely playing a game set in the universe she created, not endorsing her views.

I agree, and as I've said a couple of times, I think it's a shame that they were upset, I don't approve of people being unkind, but I think that the anti trans movement is causing more upset and misery than a few comments on their stream, which is why I think the focus of the story is off.

It's frustrating that you don't get it. The focus of this story is about someone who was set on by bullies. There are multiple other stories that have been written about JK. But this one doesn't include the anti-trans movement. You're still diminishing and handwaving bullying and it's strange.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Asking someone to give up playing and enjoying a product because some other people have turned it into a battleground doesn't really make sense.

I understand, but I'll try and make it clearer,

Firstly, I think playing and enjoying the game are quite different to promoting it. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear but I did say

If you help to promote a product

In my post.

No. the narrative from many people who are being bullied is that they're merely playing a game set in the universe she created, not endorsing her views.

I don't know who's doing this bullying or who the bullied are, but I assume you're talking still about the streamers in the thread.

Now, firstly, I don't think they'd have got any flack for playing the game at all, it's only because they chose to stream the game and become part of the promotion of the game.

As for being able to or not be able to separate the art from the creator, for whatever reason, regrettably, we have ended up in a position where lots of people think that promoting this game is more complex than other games. Some people think that promoting this game IS endorsing JKR's views, or that her views aren't important.

It's frustrating that you don't get it. The focus of this story is about someone who was set on by bullies. There are multiple other stories that have been written about JK. But this one doesn't include the anti-trans movement. You're still diminishing and handwaving bullying and it's strange.

Ok, what do you need me to say? I've already said that I think it would have been better if it hadn't happened (for multiple reasons) and I don't want her to be upset.

There are multiple other stories that have been written about JK. But this one doesn't include the anti-trans movement.

I don't understand what this part is about, can you explain it?

 

[RafterXL]

I'm not kidding you, no. I don't use Twitch and didn't know that the transcript would be incomplete from the stream. That wasn't clear to me, good to know!

Are you saying they got death threats and were doxxed?

I'm saying that the people that harassed them also harassed other streamers. They also disseminated a web page to track anyone who streamed the game, in order to harass and threaten. They sent death threats to multiple streamers and bullied many, many more.

Hasan, who is leftist btw, and has 2.4 million followers, was getting harassed, on both of his accounts, before he even streamed, so he decided not to:
https://livestreamfails.com/clip/150055

So you have all these streamers that didn't stream, but it wasn't because they were taking a stand, they just didn't want to deal with these lunatics.

And when that didn't work they organized "weaponized spoilers" as ResetEra put it before they hid their JK Rowling thread. They, and /gamingcirclejerk (which has 600k subs) literally threw temper tantrums and started spoiling the games ending across the web because they didn't get their way.

Beating people into submission isn't going to help their cause and actively hurts it.

All trans people were attacking them?

I'd say that trans people are the opposite of a sacred cow, tbh. They're people that experience open hostility and criticism simply for existing.

All you pulling the "not all men" defense? If your community is doing this and you, not only don't condemn, but actively run interference for it, you're as good as complicit.

This was organized and extensive. And every large trans/pro-trans journalist, Twitter account, etc. has been making excuses, lying, mocking or outright denying these things happened. When you can't even admit that people who share your ideals fucked up and did something wrong, you're part of the problem.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

All you pulling the "not all men" defense? If your community is doing this and you, not only don't condemn, but actively run interference for it, you're as good as complicit

No, I'm not, you're right though, it sounds like I was and you're right to call that out.
I was more interested to see what the opinion was, whether the guy would be prepared to say that some trans people are nice people while others might be less so.

I think your point about being as good as complicit is a good one. And very appropriate for the discussion because many would say that by supporting JKR through the purchase of this game you are complicit in her efforts to take rights from Trans people. But not everyone's saying that including some trans people.

But to answer your point directly.

I took a look on Twitter and some trans people are speaking out against the abuse the streamers received, but I think given that just 1% of the world is trans (I googled UK and US figures, that was the first thing that came up for both - possibly inaccurate) you're just not likely to see as much visible condemnation.

It's a bit of a weird situation which I suspect has played out repeatedly, you know a few years ago people constantly berated muslims for not speaking out against terrorists that were committing atrocities. And I think the idea that you can say that every community needs to step up and denounce something that's obviously unpleasant isn't really going to work out very often when the communities are so small and arguably underrepresented to boot.

This was organized and extensive. And every large trans/pro-trans journalist, Twitter account, etc. has been making excuses, lying, mocking or outright denying these things happened. When you can't even admit that people who share your ideals fucked up and did something wrong, you're part of the problem.

Which are the large trans / pro-trans journalists that you're talking about?

I'm a little bit worried that this is going to have the opposite effect of the conversation I hoped this would have, I hoped that people might think about how this isn't as black and white as it may initially seem, but I think that it could end up with more demonising of trans people, including those who've had nothing to say about HWL.

PS, sorry for not replying to your other point, I am a bit short on time.

 

[Crayon]

Sure, but I think that this whole thing is being misunderstood. The tone seems to be:

"poor girl gets bullied to tears by hate mob"

When really I think it's:

"girl aligns herself with anti trans figure and gets upset when some people mildly and civilly express disappointment"

And as such, I don't really know why people are coming out in sympathy for her, unless you think that trans people aren't worthy of any consideration. If that's the case, I can see why you might only focus on her upset, but I'm not sure anyone would be brave enough to say something so despicable.

I think the other thing that might have gone unsaid is that they may be sympathetic to trans people, as evidenced by the guy claiming to be an ally on the stream, and the charity collection (does anyone know how much they raised, btw?). But after seeing the reaction they got, they realised that streaming the game was more of a symbol of anti trans sentiment than they initially thought and felt sad for the upset they were causing.

However, I think it's more likely that they got a code for a big game that they thought would be popular, would get them more views and increase their income. They knew that the game was already connected to JKR's attitude to trans people, and though they may wish no ill will to trans people, were prepared to align themselves with anti trans sentiment in order to get a couple of good days viewing figures. They continued to get pushback and cried about it after an hour of streaming.

I would say this is possibly because they realised they'd done something they felt ashamed of (if they are sincere about considering themselves allies) but they continued to stream for another 7 hours and did it again the next day, which undermines their claim. As such you might say that they felt they were doing harm but decided it wasn't important and went ahead anyway.

So, is that worth compassion? your attitude to other people's right to be treated with respect and compassion probably informs this. I think it'd be better all around if they'd not got upset, which could have happened if they had considered other people's feelings when accepting the code from the publisher or when they got pushback when announcing the stream, or before starting the stream, or during the stream. But they didn't and here we are.

I should say off the bat that I did imagine much worse harassment when I heard of the story. You could say I jumped to conclusions. I'm not sure if I mentioned that before.

I don't think our accounts of the incident are all that different. The main difference is where you see playing the game as a lighting oneself with anti-trans. That makes all the difference. A game sale puts pennies in the woman's pocket, like every of the many products in the world plastered with Harry potter. I feel confident enough saying most of her audience just sees it as a game they are excited about, because that would represent most people. A minority of people turn it into a false dichotomy where you have to either boycott the game or you are complicit in harm. If you think the game is harming people, will agree to disagree on that.