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[lucebuce12]

Played matches with people from my area yesterday and played some battle lounge sessions with a local Bison player. He was Super Gold, like 5900 lp or something.

And my God, he sucked. His strategy consisted of either ex headstomping, dash forward grabs or just generally gimmicky plays. Anyone who knows how to fight against Bison won't have a problem here.


Then he switched to Ryu and then just DP'd every chance he got. Got anti air'd? Dp. Knockdown? DP.

Eventually beat him in several ft2's with like 4 different characters and he just RQ.

Started thinking how the hell did he get to Super Gold? And it was easy. He plays Bison. Nobody can do shit to Bison if the connection isn't good, that dash forward can get too tough to react to if you're not expecting it.

 

[vg260]

I hope they never change survival mode. I've already put in too much work to see them make it easier now!

The only problem with survival is the way colors are locked behind it. That aspect desperately needs to be changed. It's a ludicrous design decision they need to correct.

The mode itself can be left alone otherwise. You still get the fight money reward if you want to suffer through that awful mode.

 

[Femto.]

Anyone here named Neo-kny?

Fought against a Karin and that was a fun match. Only asking because that person is part of the GAF community on PSN.

 

[Boogalogist]

Played matches with people from my area yesterday and played some battle lounge sessions with a local Bison player. He was Super Gold, like 5900 lp or something.

And my God, he sucked. His strategy consisted of either ex headstomping, dash forward grabs or just generally gimmicky plays. Anyone who knows how to fight against Bison won't have a problem here.


Then he switched to Ryu and then just DP'd every chance he got. Got anti air'd? Dp. Knockdown? DP.

Eventually beat him in several ft2's with like 4 different characters and he just RQ.

Started thinking how the hell did he get to Super Gold? And it was easy. He plays Bison. Nobody can do shit to Bison if the connection isn't good, that dash forward can get too tough to react to if you're not expecting it.

I think what you're trying to say is...."Bison needs an overhead", right?

 

[lucebuce12]

I think what you're trying to say is...."Bison needs an overhead", right?

My main point was how someone who just relies on gimmicks can get to super gold.

Poor Bison.

 

[Astrael]

My main point was how someone who just relies on gimmicks can get to super gold.

Poor Bison.

I keep watching players like that in high silver and gold ranked on streams, then think man... even I could beat them, they don't block and do the same thing over and over. Then I get online and everyone plays solid with perfect blocking, punishes and execution with crazy mixups while still in bronze league and I'm just like why meeee lol.

 

[Edgeward]

My main point was how someone who just relies on gimmicks can get to super gold.

Poor Bison.

Bison gets a buff that's online exclusive. And until ranked is fixed like how it needs to be you can feast on lower ranks and just opt out of ones you can't win still. Even better he got there first before the "fix"

 

[Gr1mLock]

Oh its cry about bison week? I though he was low tier this week?

 

[Xeteh]

Oh its cry about bison week? I though he was low tier this week?

I don't think anyone is crying about him.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Question: Do Ryu/Ken actually need invincible reversals (e.g. MP/EX Shoryuken)?

Sometimes I wonder why some obviously good characters (e.g. Chun-Li) get some of the tools they do.

 

[Shadoken]

Lol talk about insecurities , nobody is crying about him man. He just asked how a person could get to super gold with just gimmicks.

Answer is
1. You keep beating on Silvers using gimmicks.
2. You rage quit when it doesn't work

I've been rage quit on by so many plat players. It's so easy to spot. They will have a huge win streak and then directly go into their set play ( they don't bother trying to learn the opponent or anything )

 

[Gr1mLock]

Lol talk about insecurities , nobody is crying about him man. He just asked how a person could get to super gold with just gimmicks.

Answer is
1. You keep beating on Silvers using gimmicks.
2. You rage quit when it doesn't work

I've been rage quit on by so many plat players. It's so easy to spot. They will have a huge win streak and then directly go into their set play ( they don't bother trying to learn the opponent or anything )

Insecurities? lol. There are characters far more qualified to illustrate the point.

 

[lucebuce12]

Question: Do Ryu/Ken actually need invincible reversals (e.g. MP/EX Shoryuken)?

Sometimes I wonder why some obviously good characters (e.g. Chun-Li) get some of the tools they do.

An invincible reversal is still a risk in this game. One right guess at blocking it of course leads to massive damage.

If regular chip kills were still a thing in this game, then I'd agree that invincible reversals would be too good a tool.

Just like anything in this game, guessing correctly can lead to a massive advantage. Whether it's something like predicting that the Laura is going to do an EX shoulder or whether Mika is going to do an EX peach or whether Necalli is going to wake up DP or whether Alex is going to dash up powah bomb, all these situations lead to considerable damage if they don't pan out.

 

[aoinokaze]

Was that the same edgeward from here in Keiko's stream?

 

[Edgeward]

Yes. Her Cammy gives me a ton of trouble.

I actually try to stop by when she streams so I can get run a set with her but she is usually on too late.

 

[Augemitbutter]

Played matches with people from my area yesterday and played some battle lounge sessions with a local Bison player. He was Super Gold, like 5900 lp or something.

And my God, he sucked. His strategy consisted of either ex headstomping, dash forward grabs or just generally gimmicky plays. Anyone who knows how to fight against Bison won't have a problem here.


Then he switched to Ryu and then just DP'd every chance he got. Got anti air'd? Dp. Knockdown? DP.

Eventually beat him in several ft2's with like 4 different characters and he just RQ.

Started thinking how the hell did he get to Super Gold? And it was easy. He plays Bison. Nobody can do shit to Bison if the connection isn't good, that dash forward can get too tough to react to if you're not expecting it.

hah, i lost 3 games in a row to a bison that just grabbed me like that. i was so free, but i didn't care, kept rematching him. i don't think he did much else besides grabbing and i couldn't do shit. met him a day later when he picked guile and perfected him.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Question: Do Ryu/Ken actually need invincible reversals (e.g. MP/EX Shoryuken)?

Sometimes I wonder why some obviously good characters (e.g. Chun-Li) get some of the tools they do.

I think a better question is, why does Ryu need the best jumpin, the best meterless reversal, some of the best damage, 1000 health and stun, and arguably the best fireball in the game.

Ditto for Ken, only with a better jumpin game, worse fireball, and corner carries from almost anywhere on screen.

If they weren't shotos, no way would they be sitting at 1k health when Guile gets 950

 

[SolarPowered]

When you guys put it that way my mind really is blown by Ryu and Ken's health.

Question: Do Ryu/Ken actually need invincible reversals (e.g. MP/EX Shoryuken)?

Sometimes I wonder why some obviously good characters (e.g. Chun-Li) get some of the tools they do.

Capcom balancing sometimes feels like a popularity contest. I especially felt this way about MvC3.

I think a better question is, why does Ryu need the best jumpin, the best meterless reversal, some of the best damage, 1000 health and stun, and arguably the best fireball in the game.

Ditto for Ken, only with a better jumpin game, worse fireball, and corner carries from almost anywhere on screen.

If they weren't shotos, no way would they be sitting at 1k health when Guile gets 950

Just a better jump in? Ken goes from 0 to 60 on the ground in a split second with that V-skill of his.

 

[Zerojul]

If they weren't shotos, no way would they be sitting at 1k health when Guile gets 950

Guile has that super-useful loop that makes him really op though.

 

[Shito]

Stupendous just won this week's WNF with Zangief: Snake Eyez am cry? ^^

 

[Numb]

gief not lowtier confirmed

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Stupendous just won this week's WNF with Zangief: Snake Eyez am cry? ^^

stupendous hacked away the input lag

the only answer

 

[hamchan]

Time to nerf Zangief's health. If he weren't Russian no way would he be sitting on 1050 health.

 

[Omnistalgic]

I think a better question is, why does Ryu need the best jumpin, the best meterless reversal, some of the best damage, 1000 health and stun, and arguably the best fireball in the game.

Ditto for Ken, only with a better jumpin game, worse fireball, and corner carries from almost anywhere on screen.

If they weren't shotos, no way would they be sitting at 1k health when Guile gets 950

But they are Shoto. And they need to be strong since everyone knows how to play against Ryu/Ken. If they aren’t strong they will be whack, I’m telling you.

And Flux of course they need a DP...Shotos are supposed to be balanced characters especially Ryu. Even with his damage can you remember the last match where a Ryu player didn’t outplay you for the win? Used some tricky set-up to confuse you? lol...DP is big commitment in this game and you are eating a ton of damage for guessing wrong. It’s a great 50/50 unlike FADC.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

And Flux of course they need a DP...Shotos are supposed to be balanced characters especially Ryu. Even with his damage can you remember the last match where a Ryu player didn’t outplay you for the win? Used some tricky set-up to confuse you? lol...DP is big commitment in this game and you are eating a ton of damage for guessing wrong. It’s a great 50/50 unlike FADC.

Absolutely any loss, barring lag shenanigans, is the result of being outplayed. This "honest play" semantics fundamentally means nothing: if you lost, it's because the other player was better in that match.

If a DP can be hand-waved for being a big commitment, why doesn't every character have one? Bringing up P4A again, that game had universal DPs for every single character in the game, but they were also a huge risk just like any DP.

An invincible reversal is still a risk in this game. One right guess at blocking it of course leads to massive damage.

If regular chip kills were still a thing in this game, then I'd agree that invincible reversals would be too good a tool.

Just like anything in this game, guessing correctly can lead to a massive advantage. Whether it's something like predicting that the Laura is going to do an EX shoulder or whether Mika is going to do an EX peach or whether Necalli is going to wake up DP or whether Alex is going to dash up powah bomb, all these situations lead to considerable damage if they don't pan out.

I don't mean any option any character has, I'm asking why specifically Ryu and Ken have invincible meterless DPs other than "it's their legacy."

 

[lucebuce12]

Absolutely any loss, barring lag shenanigans, is the result of being outplayed. This "honest play" semantics fundamentally means nothing: if you lost, it's because the other player was better in that match.

If a DP can be hand-waved for being a big commitment, why doesn't every character have one? Bringing up P4A again, that game had universal DPs for every single character in the game, but they were also a huge risk just like any DP.



I don't mean any option any character has, I'm asking why specifically Ryu and Ken have invincible meterless DPs other than "it's their legacy."

It's not really fair to bring other fighting games as comparisons regarding this stuff. Hell, the new Killer Instinct has such depth and messes with even the core fundamentals of characters like how Glacius didn't even have a forward/back dash while everyone else had them (it got added recently but it's still the slowest dash in the game)

In regards to why Ken and Ryu have them, I don't know, it's just symbolic. Ryu and Ken have ALWAYS had the fireball, Tatsu and Shoryuken. Guile has ALWAYS had the sonic boom and Flash Kick. Chun-Li has always had that lightning legs and kikoken. It's just part of the characters at this point.

In regards to gameplay, that's just how they're choosing to design and balance the characters and their movesets. And it's not like they're the only characters that have invincible DPs.

Can you even imagine how impossible it would be to beat characters like Mika or Birdie or Alex if they had invincible meterless options that they always have at hand?

EDIT: It's just one of the things that makes characters more "unique" in their playstyle. Some have DPs, some have command grabs, some are charge characters, and then there's Necalli that's all three.

Spoiler

Stupid Necalli

 

[SolarPowered]

But they are Shoto. And they need to be strong since everyone knows how to play against Ryu/Ken. If they aren’t strong they will be whack, I’m telling you.

And Flux of course they need a DP...Shotos are supposed to be balanced characters especially Ryu. Even with his damage can you remember the last match where a Ryu player didn’t outplay you for the win? Used some tricky set-up to confuse you? lol...DP is big commitment in this game and you are eating a ton of damage for guessing wrong. It’s a great 50/50 unlike FADC.

I've been playing a lot more of 3S recently again and unlike SFV it allows multiple supers depending on the super art you choose, so you really do run a larger risk in that game. That still doesn't stop Ryu, Ken and Akuma from being strong low, mid and high level characters despite not being top tier. The DP bait is only a big damage opportunity in SFV when you've got a CA and/or V-Trigger fully stocked. If you don't then you'd better be playing hard hitting characters like Ken, Ryu or Birdie because you aren't getting the big damage without at least one mix up afterwards.

 

[killu4what]

Absolutely any loss, barring lag shenanigans, is the result of being outplayed.

Amen.

"Gimmicks" are annoying. But if they work on you then you have no right to complain. I just found out that dash in and grab is considered a gimmick. But good players they shut it down and then we have a game. If you can't stop it sorry bro your eating throws and crush counters all day. I think people are too concerned with how to "properly" play the game. As you get better it will organically teach you what flies and what doesn't.

Spoiler

None of this applies to the Irish Whip. That cheap AF lol

 

[FluxWaveZ]

It's not really fair to bring other fighting games as comparisons regarding this stuff. Hell, the new Killer Instinct has such depth and messes with even the core fundamentals of characters like how Glacius didn't even have a forward/back dash while everyone else had them (it got added recently but it's still the slowest dash in the game)

That's why it's completely complementary to the point I'm making.

In regards to why Ken and Ryu have them, I don't know, it's just symbolic. Ryu and Ken have ALWAYS had the fireball, Tatsu and Shoryuken. Guile has ALWAYS had the sonic boom and Flash Kick. Chun-Li has always had that lightning legs and kikoken. It's just part of the characters at this point.

In regards to gameplay, that's just how they're choosing to design and balance the characters and their movesets. And it's not like they're the only characters that have invincible DPs.

See, this is what I'm saying. The only answer you can come up with is: "It's because they've always had one." It's a legacy thing, and I'm trying to find fundamental reasons other than that as to why they have one.

Can you even imagine how impossible it would be to beat characters like Mika or Birdie or Alex if they had invincible meterless options that they always have at hand?

They'd be just as "impossible" as a character with the zoning tools Ryu or Ken have; what would make them more so as grapplers?

EDIT: It's just one of the things that makes characters more "unique" in their playstyle. Some have DPs, some have command grabs, some are charge characters, and then there's Necalli that's all three.

Spoiler

Stupid Necalli

To me, all of what Necalli has that you listed makes sense for him, including the fact that he has a DP. There are very clear reasons why some characters will have command grabs and why some moves are charge moves. The same needs to be applicable to a character having a DP other than superficially making them unique, because it's not like they randomly choose who to give it to.

There has to be a reason why Ryu and Ken have DPs other than legacy, but currently I'm ignoring it.

 

[lucebuce12]

That's why it's completely complementary to the point I'm making.



See, this is what I'm saying. The only answer you can come up with is: "It's because they've always had one." It's a legacy thing, and I'm trying to find fundamental reasons other than that as to why they have one.



They'd be just as "impossible" as a character with the zoning tools Ryu or Ken have; what would make them more so as grapplers?



To me, all of what Necalli has that you listed makes sense for him, including the fact that he has a DP. There are very clear reasons why some characters will have command grabs and why some moves are charge moves. The same needs to be applicable to a character having a DP other than superficially making them unique, because it's not like they randomly choose who to give it to.

There has to be a reason why Ryu and Ken have DPs other than legacy, but currently I'm ignoring it.

Do you think Ryu and Ken shouldn't have DPs then?

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Do you think Ryu and Ken shouldn't have DPs then?

I don't know, that's why I'm trying to determine its function in relation to those characters. Like, why doesn't Karin have a meterless DP while they do? If a DP is meant to be ancillary for fireball/zoning characters, why doesn't FANG have one?

 

[Grakl]

Ryu and Ken have DPs because the designers were like "yeah they should have these because it's cool" and other characters don't because the designers were like "we want to give these other characters different moves" and then they started balancing the game

 

[Shito]

Wait wait wait, I think the discussion is about having invincible DP and not straight out removing their DP altogether.
Their DP exists to cement their AA game, and goes hand in hand with their fireballs. And they have invincible frames because they need to be reliable AAs, that can't get stuffed by anything.
My main beef with those, and where I agree with Flux, is that this naturally led to them being able to use this AA option as invincible reversals on their wake-up, while it was not their main purpose, and while other characters lack them completely because they are not meant to have such great AAs to begin with.
While shotos should absolutely have great DPs for anti-airing, I'm really not convinced they need the invincible option on wake-up it leads to, even if in SFV they can get murdered for it in return.
If you take Ryu as an example of what a shoto should be, his gameplan is about zoning you out and controlling the space between you and him with his fireballs and DPs; once you get inside and close to him, or score a knockdown, you should deserve to be able to exploit it fully. I can't really understand why he is allowed this invincible option to reset the game back to the position he's best at...

 

[Sixfortyfive]

In theory, DPs are balanced out by the risk of being crush-countered on recovery.

But I feel that it doesn't really make sense for meter-dependent reversals to also have crush-counter on recovery.

 

[DR2K]

In theory, DPs are balanced out by the risk of being crush-countered on recovery.

But I feel that it doesn't really make sense for meter-dependent reversals to also have crush-counter on recovery.

These characters weren't designed to have DPs at their disposal and must use a bar to get that property to balance them out. It is still an effective tool and should still be CC.

I do think Ken and Ryu could use lower health and stun. They probably would if they were female.

 

[Zombegoast]

Nothing's wrong with DP. My biggest issue is how the netcode prevents any pressure and block string when going against people who mashes DP on block.

In theory, DPs are balanced out by the risk of being crush-countered on recovery.

But I feel that it doesn't really make sense for meter-dependent reversals to also have crush-counter on recovery.

It's stupid how Guile can get Crush Counter on recovery on regular flash kick.

 

[sixteen-bit]

stupendous hacked away the input lag

the only answer

WNF is on PC tho right? They even edit the ini files to reduce the lag.

 

[BlizzKrut]

Some people are really salty, beat a Super Silver Ryu 2-1 fair and square until the last round, both with low health, just as I take him he Ragequits, and I obviously don't get points because Capcom, same with a SS Cammy.

Learn to take your losses everyone.

 

[KhalilSyncere]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0gx85HrUlY

Man, I hate top players, I swear I can beat these guys and then I just play like booty cheeks the longer the matches go. Watching this is just cringe worthy, I made so many simple mistakes and could have took the set.

-_-

So disappointed I still can’t play with a calm spirit yet. Smh...At least I broke his streak. Gonna start inviting these guys to sets.

I played him as well. He beat me both matches, but I got a round or two on him and made him work for it. He was using Ryu.

 

[KhalilSyncere]

It's not really fair to bring other fighting games as comparisons regarding this stuff. Hell, the new Killer Instinct has such depth and messes with even the core fundamentals of characters like how Glacius didn't even have a forward/back dash while everyone else had them (it got added recently but it's still the slowest dash in the game)

In regards to why Ken and Ryu have them, I don't know, it's just symbolic. Ryu and Ken have ALWAYS had the fireball, Tatsu and Shoryuken. Guile has ALWAYS had the sonic boom and Flash Kick. Chun-Li has always had that lightning legs and kikoken. It's just part of the characters at this point.

In regards to gameplay, that's just how they're choosing to design and balance the characters and their movesets. And it's not like they're the only characters that have invincible DPs.

Can you even imagine how impossible it would be to beat characters like Mika or Birdie or Alex if they had invincible meterless options that they always have at hand?

EDIT: It's just one of the things that makes characters more "unique" in their playstyle. Some have DPs, some have command grabs, some are charge characters, and then there's Necalli that's all three.

Spoiler

Stupid Necalli

Uh...no she didn't.

 

[Skilletor]

I think crush counter in return for invincibility on a reversal is a great balance.

If everybody had a DP, then approaching and pressuring characters would be homogeneous. I wouldn't compare it to an anime game like Persona because the ebb and flow of a match is very different and, also, not everybody has a DP in Persona, either. Chie's universal move was a Counter, for example.

 

[vg260]

Some people are really salty, beat a Super Silver Ryu 2-1 fair and square until the last round, both with low health, just as I take him he Ragequits, and I obviously don't get points because Capcom, same with a SS Cammy.

Learn to take your losses everyone.

This is making for miserable online. I was playing casuals last night and got quit on right as I was taking the third match in a 1:1 set where we both had one round in the third. I mean, really?

If they quit, fine, but let me keep the FM and/or LP at least. There's no excuse for this.

 

[The Lone Dragon]

Some sort of tourney streaming on TWfighter:
https://www.twitch.tv/twfighter

Currently Alex whooping a Ken...

 

[Grifter]

How viable is Guile looking?

I switched to him for some long local session recently. While SF4 Guile initially felt like a progressively nerfed Guile (going down the line of SF2 games), SF5 Guile felt like further toned down to me, but in line with the game. His normals are slower and have less ranged use, and he's got little nagging things as he did in SF4, like combos into somersault not always connecting.

In a game with explosive damage and/or momentum, he doesn't have much of either except for corner combos with meter. He game revolves around sonic boom, but they have more recovery than ever, anti-airs are harder, and characters have more built-in ways to nullify projectiles.

Still, against some good players, exchanges have gone well for me even tho I'm surely not playing him correctly. He may work in this game with an adjusted style, as Ryu does.

 

[Shito]

I think crush counter in return for invincibility on a reversal is a great balance.

If everybody had a DP, then approaching and pressuring characters would be homogeneous. I wouldn't compare it to an anime game like Persona because the ebb and flow of a match is very different and, also, not everybody has a DP in Persona, either. Chie's universal move was a Counter, for example.

Yeah well, the idea is not as much to have a universal DP as a universal invincible reversal, that gets punished hard if it's minded.
Why does Ryu has the right to go for this option to reset the game back to his preferred position, but not other characters? Which flaws is this mechanic supposed to counter?
I'm not saying it's really important or all, mind you, just arguing for the sake of it, because I can't wrap my head around why some characters are allowed an invincible reversal and not others, when their gameplan doesn't even call for it. ^^

 

[LakeEarth]

Nobody can do shit to Bison if the connection isn't good, that dash forward can get too tough to react to if you're not expecting it.

Or in my case, you expected the dash so well that your button whiffs while they're still invulnerable.

EVERY. DAMN. TIME.

 

[CountBlack]

I just want Laura's ex elbow to have frame 1 armor fam

 

[CrackpotDesert]

LK scissors > cMP > cMP > LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP ....

All day til it works

 

[Skilletor]

Yeah well, the idea is not as much to have a universal DP as a universal invincible reversal, that gets punished hard if it's minded.
Why does Ryu has the right to go for this option to reset the game back to his preferred position, but not other characters? Which flaws is this mechanic supposed to counter?
I'm not saying it's really important or all, mind you, just arguing for the sake of it, because I can't wrap my head around why some characters are allowed an invincible reversal and not others, when their gameplan doesn't even call for it. ^^

Because it's what makes fighting them unique?

Every character gets different tools. Fireball/uppercut is an entire archetype created by Ryu. He has it because it was invented with him and it's propagated throughout pretty much every other 2D fighter ever because of this concept.

 

[mbpm1]

LK scissors > cMP > cMP > LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP >LK scissors > cMP > cMP ....

All day til it works

pressure strings with 9 frame gaps doesn't sound like a good idea tho