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Street Fighter V |OTVI| The More I Know, The Worse I Play

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Spuck-uk

Banned
Eh, I still think that Vega as a character has fewer flaws than Guile, which makes him a tad more viable overall. Guile specialists like Nuckle Du and ChrisG make him look really really good, but then again Zangief's specialists do the same thing.

Besides, I only put Guile and Vega a single space apart so you could pretty easily swap them without changing anything at all :V

Vega doesn't really do anything 'the best', he's a slightly worse Chun in most areas of his game (Throw range is stronger and back walk speed). He doesn't even have his defining godlike pokes, because claw on attacks have immense hurtboxes and horrible startup.

Guile OTOH has fantastic zoning and pokes, one of the better v-triggers for his gameplan, and can frustrate a large amount of the cast into playing his game.
 
This is the first time I'm hearing that Ken's normals have different hitstun. I've personally never noticed it and have never heard of anyone else complaining about it.

EDIT: Holy shit, I saw some stuff online and THAT's why Ken's runcancel is so darn difficult to react to in the heat of the moment. I always just thought I wasn't reacting fast enough but that shit really does come out faster than other cancels.

EDIT2: Could this be a bug? It really makes little sense for Ken of all characters to have stuff that's innately more difficult to react to, even with how offense oriented he is.
 

Marvel

could never
One of my mains is Ken, a friend who I was playing mentioned it but I didn't get it at the time.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
Tbh I'd be 100% happy with Mika getting major damage nerfs so long as they keep her general gameplan the same. I really enjoy conditioning opponents and playing off of their fear, and I'd like that to be preserved above all.

Pretty sure the only characters who will be getting major nerfs are Ryu, Chun and Necalli though. Most of the other top tiers are fairly balanced imo; big nerfs would tip the scales too far towards the other end of the spectrum.

Mika doesn't need nerfs.

Ryu, Chun definitely need nerfs.

Ken probably needs nerfs

Laura, Gief, FANG, Juri, Ibuki definitely need buffs.

Vega claw-on normals need buffs
 
Mark my words, here and now everyone.

If F.A.N.G's poison gets buffed then FANG is gonna be a legitimately tough character to deal with.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
I've heard other people mention this, but could someone explain why Chun should be nerf'ed?

People keep saying she's overpowered and she at the top of most people tier list, but as a person who main's her, I don't see it. She is not an easy character to get good with. (My 36% win rate can attest to this lol).

Could someone educate me on this subject?

Best pokes in the game. st.HP on it's own is absurdly good

Amazing safe mixup between air legs/low/throw.

Flawless anti-air that puts the opponent into mixup.

Can combo from lights into mediums.

3 frame jab.

Great Fireball.


She basically has every tool you could want except a meterless reversal, and does almost every aspect of the game as well or better than the rest of the cast, with the exception of her damage output.
 

myco666

Member
Made a Karin player so frustrated that he/she just started holding foward at the end of round 2 and didn't want a runback. Hold that salt.

I have been working on my Birdie and I feel like some pieces are starting to come together. Still struggling with Bullhorn but I've started to use EX command grab after succesful cr.mp AA and it worked well. Also got that disgusting light Dolphin dive after blocked st.mp trick pretty well in my muscle memory. Still a long way to go.
 
I still don't understand the Ken hate. Maybe because it's Nash best MU. All Ken players online only go for one thing and never try to do combos.
 
Mika doesn't need nerfs.

Ryu, Chun definitely need nerfs.

Ken probably needs nerfs

Laura, Gief, FANG, Juri, Ibuki definitely need buffs.

Vega claw-on normals need buffs

I disagree that Mika doesn't need nerfs, although in her case, her strength comes from how she completely upends the gameplay style they've gone with for SFV, so she's probably the most complicated character to balance and that can be approached in different ways.

Flatout, I think the only across the board nerf no matter what that she needs is the hitbox on the clap. That shit does not need to be what it is. It's too big of a reward (corner carry from anywhere on screen with one bar of EX, with the things SHE can do in the corner? Get out of here Capcom) for how braindead it is to throw out in footsies. You can probably make it come out slower instead of a hitbox change if you want, so you can still use it smartly to whiff punish instead of just mashing it right outside of opponent normal range without thinking.

Now, in general what makes her so strong is that she has the absolute craziest resets in the game outside of Urien Aegis shenanigans (but hell, he needs fucking V Trigger to do that, Mika gets it for free, on top of getting even more options with Nadeshiko) and since the game inherently rewards such aggressive playstyles; her numerous options in the corner, high damage, high stun, 3 frame jab, +1 on block crush counter, and not the worst reversal option in the game make her far too strong.

I get the conceit of her character is to drive you into the corner and make you guess to high hell, but my argument is that it is far too easy for her to get you there, and once she does, she has so many options, that she is allowed to make too many safe guesses that high risk gambles aren't necessary, which should be the complete opposite of how her character should be played compared to how quickly she can end a match.
 
^^ lolol


Only talking about when I win..

If I lose and it wasnt laggy then I'm mashing that play again button ��
You are the literally Ken Army’s champion ‘-) Well done...We need a special slot in the OT just for you.

Pros complain a lot about things they don't like the same way average players do. The ones who do well look at Ken, and other character's, and see what they have that they can exploit to win.
His offense is punishable, but it usually requires either game knowledge or good reactions.if a player has difficulty punishing Ken's run stuff it may be because they aren't reacting quickly enough. I've had to grind out punishes for super slow stuff like Urien's ex headbutt and Balrog's overhead v-skill in the past. But, nerfing his run offense would make him pretty bad. Most things are already -3 and a lot of the common Ken run things are highly negative and can be punished with most characters medium or heavy buttons.
Seriously, there is legit derp and then there’s just making everyone mediocre. I encourage people to pick up Ken for just a half an hour, he would be complete garbage if he didn’t have something unique about his normals. Only thing on plus he has is c.mp st.lp c.lp. Online is much more difficulty to punish stuff in general as well, (Karin’s sweep, Nash’s scythes, Chun’s sweep, or even her EX birdkick at times) Air tatsu and damage can perhaps be toned down, who knows, but meh, I’ve just never heard anyone complaining about Ken’s hit stop before. A lot of the characters have unsafe stuff that’s not extremely punishable. You guys should look at run cancel after Ken was first revealed. I think Max demoed him! Run was RIDIcOULOUS! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRtmo4SY58s
I still don't understand the Ken hate. Maybe because it's Nash best MU. All Ken players online only go for one thing and never try to do combos.
Ken vs. Nash is kinda even I think, but it requires Ken to stay very grounded and block booms and overall play more defensively and stalk Nash. I don’t think most Ken’s like playing like this so you are probably capitalizing. Wanna do some sets?
 

Baleoce

Member
I play stick normally, but I'm concious some times of being too loud, especially as I hang out on discord chat with friends who don't play SFV. So, I bought a hori pad a few months back and actually I've been really enjoying using it. Laura on pad is especially fun. I sometimes struggle when playing as Ryu with reaction DPs if my left hand is tense. No problems at all in training mode. It's just sometimes during a close match, I convince myself I've done the motion, but in reality it's stayed practically still and I just end up with a crouching mp and eat a free jump in xD
 
Mika's clap and Ken's air tatsu need adjusted. The risk/reward on the clap is off imo. Should have Chuns vtrigger not last so long as well.
 
This is the first time I'm hearing that Ken's normals have different hitstun. I've personally never noticed it and have never heard of anyone else complaining about it.

EDIT: Holy shit, I saw some stuff online and THAT's why Ken's runcancel is so darn difficult to react to in the heat of the moment. I always just thought I wasn't reacting fast enough but that shit really does come out faster than other cancels.

EDIT2: Could this be a bug? It really makes little sense for Ken of all characters to have stuff that's innately more difficult to react to, even with how offense oriented he is.
This is something that needs to be nerfed, even if most players aren’t skillful enough to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRaWrA-ruPE

Ken’s hit stop stuff is a design choice. lol...His run and game style would be completely useless fellas, I’m telling you. You just mentioned that you never noticed it and have been beating Kens more regularly since playing Big Bird so much.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
It is super weird, though. Hitstop gives a game a certain feel across characters and different moves. Having it be different for one character only is odd.
 
This is something that needs to be nerfed, even if most players aren’t skillful enough to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRaWrA-ruPE

Ken’s hit stop stuff is a design choice. lol...His run and game style would be completely useless fellas, I’m telling you. You just mentioned that you never noticed it and have been beating Kens more regularly since playing Big Bird so much.
Ever since the game's release, Kens normals just seemed a bit off to me, like they were faster then everyone and I just shrugged it off. This explains it.

Not saying that this is what makes the character so strong or that this is broken, its just.... Weird.

And tbh, of all the characters Id expect this from it'd be Cammy.
 

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
I still don't understand the Ken hate. Maybe because it's Nash best MU. All Ken players online only go for one thing and never try to do combos.
Everything you say just makes me think you're living in a parallel dimension. You're telling me gold ranked Kens don't do combos? Do you have a bizarre definition of combo we should know about?
 
Everything you say just makes me think you're living in a parallel dimension. You're telling me gold ranked Kens don't do combos? Do you have a bizarre definition of combo we should know about?

I think it's more that people who don't really understand the game try to contribute to balance discussions using their personal experience and anecdotes as evidence instead of looking at how characters interact within the confines of the game's mechanics. You hear a lot of people say "How is X char bad/good? Whenever I *personal anecdote* it's totally fine to me!"

There's always a degree of subjective opinion when it comes to discussing character/mechanics balance in a fighting game, hence why tiers change over time (people proclaiming Guile top-tier thanks to Du is evidence of this) as more people figure things out about characters/mechanics but I find that some people just try to use their subjectivity as the entire base for their argument instead of looking at their personal experience in the context of what's going on in the game objectively.
 
It is super weird, though. Hitstop gives a game a certain feel across characters and different moves. Having it be different for one character only is odd.

Ever since the game's release, Kens normals just seemed a bit off to me, like they were faster then everyone and I just shrugged it off. This explains it.

Not saying that this is what makes the character so strong or that this is broken, its just.... Weird.

And tbh, of all the characters Id expect this from it'd be Cammy.
Nah, Cammy is just plus on block for I dunno, everything lol...Check her frame data.

I just think Capcom didn’t know exactly how to balance Run and Ken was about to take Chun’s place as the best in the game with how instantly you could run and stop the animation. In beta, he also had a 3-frame jab, and could st.hp run cancel into jab pretty easily, it was pretty crazy, a lot of fun, but much too strong. https://youtu.be/YUxXMxXdsyQ?t=1m57s

Adjusting his hit stop was likely the only way to balance him a bit without his run being a gimmick. Ken went through a phase as well in the tourney scene. At first he was crazy strong, then people figured out run and start jabbing it, and then he was strong again with the best shimmy and corner pressure.
 
I would like to make a wishlist of nerfs and buffs but they'd all be biased as hell lol. Everyone thinks the character they main isn't as dumb as they actually are.

One big change I'd like to see universal though is make regular DP's not invincible except for EX's. The strength of having a DP in this game is a really big deal tbh. I think that's the way they started to go with the DLC characters with Guile/Juri's DP's only having invul on the ex version. I don't understand why the most oppressive characters in the game can dish out all the pain they want and can choose to not deal with it in return at any given point lol
 

petran79

Banned
I think it's more that people who don't really understand the game try to contribute to balance discussions using their personal experience and anecdotes as evidence instead of looking at how characters interact within the confines of the game's mechanics. You hear a lot of people say "How is X char bad/good? Whenever I *personal anecdote* it's totally fine to me!"

There's always a degree of subjective opinion when it comes to discussing character/mechanics balance in a fighting game, hence why tiers change over time (people proclaiming Guile top-tier thanks to Du is evidence of this) as more people figure things out about characters/mechanics but I find that some people just try to use their subjectivity as the entire base for their argument instead of looking at their personal experience in the context of what's going on in the game objectively.

Tier lists differ even from country to country, USA and Japan most notably. For KOF add also Asia and Latin America. Even players from same country make different lists.
There can be never be a universally accepted tier list.
The fact tgat SFV did not get a Japanese arcade release was also a huge factor
 
I would like to make a wishlist of nerfs and buffs but they'd all be biased as hell lol. Everyone thinks the character they main isn't as dumb as they actually are.

One big change I'd like to see universal though is make regular DP's not invincible except for EX's. The strength of having a DP in this game is a really big deal tbh. I think that's the way they started to go with the DLC characters with Guile/Juri's DP's only having invul on the ex version. I don't understand why the most oppressive characters in the game can dish out all the pain they want and can choose to not deal with it in return at any given point lol
You are a victim of your own reasoning.

You likely feel this way because you play Laura lol...Well lemme tell you, if I didn’t have a reliable way to get her the freak off me, that match would be a lot more lopsided and overall just annoying because she has a throw you literally cannot block or tech just “know when it’s coming”. All of us are biased, that’s why Capcom did well in taking this long to balance anything because you need lots and lots of data.
 

Raitaro

Member
I would love to give this awesome looking new stage a try but using phone tethering to update the game to 1.10 might be challenging if it's 800+mb in size.

I tried yesterday evening but it failed on me twice, forcing me to restart the game after my nemesis - error 22004 - showed up again, so I might be out of luck or in need of lots and lots of patience. Sucks I still can't solve the issue that Capcom's servers aren't liking my router for some reason when it comes to in-game updates...I'm sure the fault lies at their end still (as no other game has this problem)...
 
You are a victim of your own reasoning.

You likely feel this way because you play Laura lol...Well lemme tell you, if I didn’t have a reliable way to get her the freak off me, that match would be a lot more lopsided and overall just annoying because she has a throw you literally cannot block or tech just “know when it’s coming”. All of us are biased, that’s why Capcom did well in taking this long to balance anything because you need lots and lots of data.

If I mained Chun/Ryu/Ken/Necalli yea I'd probably be totally fine with the balance too lol
 

SephLuis

Member
She basically has every tool you could want except a meterless reversal, and does almost every aspect of the game as well or better than the rest of the cast, with the exception of her damage output.

Since her damage output isn't high, we need those tools to get good damage. And don't forget she has low life, so one mistake and our work can be quickly undone.

I really hope Capcom doesn't change Chun too much. They only need to buffs the characters who are too weak (Juri).
 
If I mained Chun/Ryu/Ken/Necalli yea I'd probably be totally fine with the balance too lol
lol...true, but it isn’t that bad.

Lot of Laura players 20K 25+K (Not that that’s a good gauge for anything, but you can win a lot with her)

You can really wreck the whole cast with her. She needs slight buffs only in my experience to bring her up to the top tier level.

Hopefully the game can end up like VF5:Evo next year.
 
Since her damage output isn't high, we need those tools to get good damage. And don't forget she has low life, so one mistake and our work can be quickly undone.

I really hope Capcom doesn't change Chun too much. They only need to buffs the characters who are too weak (Juri).

I don't think they should really change any character TOO much. Chun doesn't need more than a height limit on air legs and losing st. lk anti air to be brought down to earth without losing too much of how she plays.
 
lol...true, but it isn’t that bad.

Lot of Laura players 20K 25+K (Not that that’s a good gauge for anything, but you can win a lot with her)

You can really wreck the whole cast with her. She needs slight buffs only in my experience to bring her up to the top tier level.

Hopefully the game can end up like VF5:Evo next year.

What I'm trying to get at is; when Ken gets in, he can maul most of the cast. When he gets you into the corner (shit when any character gets you into the corner) it's probably over, so what makes a lot of his tools so strong is the corner carry he gets from them. Characters with a reversal you automatically have to respect and second guess yourself.. characters without you don't. Necalli and Ken can maul characters just as hard as Laura can (Necalli I just don't understand what they were thinking when designing.. AE Yun? idk) but on the defensive they don't have to respect jack shit lol.

I say either make DP's only invincible on EX or give characters with armour attacks starting at frame 1. I'd be happier with the former because armour attacks can still be grabbed anyway.
 
What I'm trying to get at is; when Ken gets in, he can maul most of the cast. When he gets you into the corner (shit when any character gets you into the corner) it's probably over, so what makes a lot of his tools so strong is the corner carry he gets from them. Characters with a reversal you automatically have to respect and second guess yourself.. characters without you don't. Necalli and Ken can maul characters just as hard as Laura can (Necalli I just don't understand what they were thinking when designing.. AE Yun? idk) but on the defensive they don't have to respect jack shit lol.

I say either make DP's only invincible on EX or give characters with armour attacks starting at frame 1. I'd be happier with the former because armour attacks can still be grabbed anyway.
Well you can’t have DP and a command grab lol...

But yeah, Laura is a bit too free on wake-up. I think her EX shoulder rush just needs to be invincible on start up. You can get meaty or thrown out of it atm...

Same for Rog.
 
How long is it? Hoping I can check out the stage tonight but they usually fuck over EU :(
Starts at 9 am pdt and ends at 4. So lasts for 7 hours.

It literally starts at 9 pm and ends at 4 am for me.

In other words, server goes down 2 hours from and now opens 9 hours from now.
 

Bizazedo

Member
I say either make DP's only invincible on EX or give characters with armour attacks starting at frame 1. I'd be happier with the former because armour attacks can still be grabbed anyway.

As a Bison player, I support this change.

Please, give me something.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
Since her damage output isn't high, we need those tools to get good damage. And don't forget she has low life, so one mistake and our work can be quickly undone.

I really hope Capcom doesn't change Chun too much. They only need to buffs the characters who are too weak (Juri).

She's concensus by everyone the strongest charactger in the game, she's going to get nerfs.

Her damage isn't even bad, just average, and her health is 950, which is less than 10% below Zangief and Birdie.
 
As a Bison player, I support this change.

Please, give me something.

literally all of bison's ex attacks in 4 had some sort of invincibility. in 5 he has absolutely nothing lmao

Chun players thinking chun is fine lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
stop it
 
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