-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Street Fighter V |OTVI| The More I Know, The Worse I Play
- Thread starter Reizo Ryuu
- Start date
- Status
Whelp!
killu4what
Member
I think this will be stored into people's "Excuses for when I lose" folder for the remainder of the season.
@lucebruce
I have been unsuccessful learning Birdie for a while. How do you deal with pressure?
lucebuce12
Member
Well in an ideal situation, Birdie is either keeping the opponent out with his normals or trying to get in and staying in depending on the matchup.
It's already important but considering how slow Birdie's normals are, it's even more important to KNOW your opponent. Knowing what buttons are safe, what buttons you can press and what you can't in which situation is key.
His go-to light is the st.lk since it's 4-frames, his fastest normal, is the button you press when an opponent is -1 or 0.
What I was gonna type was some standard stuff that applies to practically every characters like use your V-Reversal and know whats' safe and what isnt etc, so here's some Birdie specific stuff.
- Birdie has essentially 2 modes. Regular Birdie and V-Trigger Birdie. Both characters are actually pretty different in how you approach certain situations.
- Bullhorn is a fantastic move. Like I don't think I can do the move justice. It's SO GOOD. In regular mode, it's fantastic for getting through fireballs, punishing stuff like Akuma's Air fireballs or if you're feeling freaky, going straight through fireball based CAs. A big thing about the move though, is that his animation makes him move backwards a tad before jumping into the air. That move actually retracts his hurtbox. So if you're in a situation in the middle of a blockstring where the opponent's last normal is literally right on the very edge, you can do that move in the middle of the blockstring and have that normal whiff and punish it. It's incredibly unsafe on block unless you V-Trigger cancel it so don't abuse it.
- EX Bullhorn has a hit of armor from the 3rd frame so it's no longer a good wakeup option but it's still fantastic as a move to throw out in the middle of block strings. His f+hp accomplishes a similar effect but it's slower. Use sparingly. EX Bullhorn is also a good tool for punishing neutral jumps.
- His EX command grab is grab invincible. Not the biggest of deals but if you have a legitimate read on an opponent or if you're stuck in a throw loop, this is not a bad idea to just throw out there, especially now that the Oki opportunity is now better.
- Now, we've reached V-Trigger Birdie. In V-Trigger, his bullhorn has armor on frame 1. It's a legitimate wakeup option. His EX Bullhorn has 2 hits of armour so he can go through stuff like Guile's v-skill sonic cross, or EX fireballs. Again, use sparingly. His EX bullhead is a freaking fantastic move with armor from frame 1-20 and is -2 on block so great to throw out there. This move is actually kinda broken in a way?
Reads.
Also, it's luceBUCE 
lucebuce12
Member
killu4what
Member
Also, it's luceBUCE
Thanks Buce
Is there a way to cancel bullhorn after you have a button held down?
lucebuce12
Member
Thanks Buce
Is there a way to cancel bullhorn after you have a button held down?
You mean when you have a button held down and want to let it go without getting bullhorn? Just do a move and let go of the button while the button is going on on.
So if I was holding down st.hk and wanted to let it go, I would just press st.lp and let go of st.hk quickly before the move ends since if it didn't hit, it won't cancel into bullhorn.
EDIT: Man, coming back to Birdie after so much FANG is quite refreshing. I don't feel like I have to work for every single one of my victories. Even matchups where I'm at a disadvantage I can deal with easily and it doesn't feel like such an uphill battle.
Zombegoast
Member
There have been changes where MU has flipped. Cammy has a new V-Trigger combo and frame traps but so did everyone. Now her DP and shitty dive kicks been nerf so now she has trouble against characters like Guile and Laura who could shut down their fireballs. Ex Spiral Arrow is an option but trying to get in the right distance for a punish could end up being a DP.
It's not about alternative it's about what is to get out of pressure easier and remove escape options.
CountBlack
Member
I definitely could see another balance patch coming before the CPT. Maybe to fix a few characters but without really strong data from tournaments as to who's the strongest characters in the game, you'd have to wait until maybe half way through the circuit IMO.
I feel like this balance patch was made at the end of July instead of after Capcom Cup. Some of the changes don't really seem to make sense to myself, ofc there could be someone at the Capcom bodying everyone with Fang, just like how there probably was someone in the Capcom office destroying everyone with Deejay in the 4 days.
Nash was slowly falling down the tier list month by month and he got nerfed the hardest lol. Fang/Alex rarely won events and still got nerfed. Don't get me wrong though, those Chun/Mika/Ryu changes were definitely warranted though.
Also things they made a point to fix are still apparent. They wanted to get rid of st.LP AA -> only Alex's is really bad now lol, Necalli and Ryu still knocking cross ups out the air with a st.LP.
They wanted to get rid of throw loops, but purposely kept some in, so they didn't really want to get rid of throw loops or something, so they took out Ryu's specifically and kept others the exact same way so we can have another season of in the corner throw loops.. I don't really understand. It's either you get rid of throw loops or not instead of only nerfing certain characters loops while keeping others perfectly intact.
Overall I expected a lot more from Season 2. Really and truly it felt like a regular months update with an additional balance patch lol. Online is still extremely hit or miss. From Ultradavid's tweets about ranked to players losing their Good Player/Handshake Icon when their matches aren't sent to the server which happens extremely often. They didn't add in anything for those 2 middle tabs in players battle profiles lol. Like this could've been any other months update :/
I feel like this balance patch was made at the end of July instead of after Capcom Cup. Some of the changes don't really seem to make sense to myself, ofc there could be someone at the Capcom bodying everyone with Fang, just like how there probably was someone in the Capcom office destroying everyone with Deejay in the 4 days.
Nash was slowly falling down the tier list month by month and he got nerfed the hardest lol. Fang/Alex rarely won events and still got nerfed. Don't get me wrong though, those Chun/Mika/Ryu changes were definitely warranted though.
Also things they made a point to fix are still apparent. They wanted to get rid of st.LP AA -> only Alex's is really bad now lol, Necalli and Ryu still knocking cross ups out the air with a st.LP.
They wanted to get rid of throw loops, but purposely kept some in, so they didn't really want to get rid of throw loops or something, so they took out Ryu's specifically and kept others the exact same way so we can have another season of in the corner throw loops.. I don't really understand. It's either you get rid of throw loops or not instead of only nerfing certain characters loops while keeping others perfectly intact.
Overall I expected a lot more from Season 2. Really and truly it felt like a regular months update with an additional balance patch lol. Online is still extremely hit or miss. From Ultradavid's tweets about ranked to players losing their Good Player/Handshake Icon when their matches aren't sent to the server which happens extremely often. They didn't add in anything for those 2 middle tabs in players battle profiles lol. Like this could've been any other months update :/
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Yeah, I don't know how I feel about this yet. Since Akuma dropped, he's the only character I have been using, but at some point I will return to Urien and even Guile, so I wonder how bad the adjustment will be for me. I noticed I was missing basic combos with Guile in the split second I tried him in the lab but now I know why.
CountBlack
Member
After witnessing Capcom nerf Deejay more than Yun going into Ultra, I decided that Capcom just balances for shits and giggles instead of what makes actual sense lol
Even if extra grey life was a buff for Fang.. that still doesn't make up for his nerfs. If he stays as is (worse than S1) he'll be in the same stagnant spot
lucebuce12
Member
People are REALLY overestimating the gray health buff for FANG.
It was more of a buff to V-Reversals and a nerf to armored moves than it was a buff for FANG.
It was more of a buff to V-Reversals and a nerf to armored moves than it was a buff for FANG.
Meanwhile necalli got a whole new move
CountBlack
Member
Necalli really is the golden child right now tbh
killu4what
Member
How do I become a "Final Boss" in the next OT.?
This is something that is very important to me
ColonialHawk
Member
The Final Bosses are the platinum and diamond ranked players who post here.
Edit: I also agree that the grey life nerf was to promote increased usage of v-reversals.
sixteen-bit
Member
DFC Laura mod
https://youtu.be/BFf0Zxju1Eg
https://youtu.be/BFf0Zxju1Eg
Yeah, playing Guile feels awful now. :/
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Yeah, hearing this isn't good. Any Guile mains here want to chime in? Guilebootcamp? Is it a worthy change or just unnecessary overall? How was the adjustment? Has it caused you issues in the heat of a battle?
Secret Character
Member
After playing a lot more...
Sim vs. Boxer is probably the worst matchup in the game right now. It feels unwinnable for me, as a Sim player. At the correct distances and with the right moves, Boxer can just out poke me and use TAP to get in whenever they feel like it.
The only move that can change the tempo of the match for Sim is EX Fire, and you've obviously gotta spend meter to do it, so it isn't an option you can use all the time.
Sim vs. Boxer is probably the worst matchup in the game right now. It feels unwinnable for me, as a Sim player. At the correct distances and with the right moves, Boxer can just out poke me and use TAP to get in whenever they feel like it.
The only move that can change the tempo of the match for Sim is EX Fire, and you've obviously gotta spend meter to do it, so it isn't an option you can use all the time.
It's just something I'll need to adjust to. I'm just...not really caring right now. I expected a lot more out of season 2, so it's hard for me to get hype about relearning a character I've spent hundreds of hours playing.
I've been playing Akuma exclusively. Don't really want to mess with the old characters since I'm pretty apathetic to season 2 at the moment.
Nemesis121
Member
My friend who plays Urien has been saying Direct-Input is shit, felt like a lot of things weren't coming out when he asked, I watched his stream last night saw him miss the shoulder tackle to end the combo a few times, this will change a lot of thing when he reads this...
Not a Guile player, but with Balrog I'm not getting Dashing punches as consistently as with S1. Guess I gotta train myself to be more accurate and quick.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
I would actually like to see an analysis of their direct input implementation because I've also been dropping things that I usually don't. Could just be the new timings and everything but I'm curious.
Especially since it seems like maybe dinput is involved with xinput devices. The prompt to activate the controller or whatever comes up with the 360 pad and it seems like it shouldn't.
Then sign me up? I'm about to hit super plat...though I don't post much.
It's based on the new restricted input buffer.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
lucebuce12
Member
Just PM Reizo Ryuu (The OP) and he'll take care of it for you.
killu4what
Member
There should be some kind of fight to the death to decide this.
Plus there has got to be way more Plats than that.
Feeling apathetic towards S2 is a good way of putting it. I just can't really wrap my head around most of what they're doing at this point, and a lot of the changes are just really disheartening. Of all characters to nerf, Alex and FANG? Why? I wasn't aware of the charge move change, but that would actually explain some issues I've been having with Urien lately. The white life change makes no sense and hurts characters that already had problems with defense, and further promotes the mindless offensive style of play I had an issue with in season 1. The game also still seems reliant on setups/setplay versus having a good neutral game, and I've heard others complain about there being more 50/50 situations in the game now. Jab AAs were something they said they'd fix but were left largely intact, which is baffling because all you'd really have to do to fix this is to have the already existing priority system with normals apply to air normals. The change to invincible DPs also seems like it wasn't fully thought out, considering you can't AA cleanly with them anymore and yet they still have a CC state after a normal DP. James Chen actually mentioned an easy fix for this where DPs should just have a state where they're invulnerable to air moves and maybe throws, but I guess Capcom didn't think that far ahead.
I don't really know what I was expecting from season 2, but this wasn't really it.
Shadow_Lord
Member
I'm stuck in super gold hell (New Account) because of Akuma. But I'm determined to learn this mfer, even if i drop down to bronze. I'm learning this guy (Also trying to sub Birdie too since that guy is fun asf). I'm just waiting for Akuma to click honestly, cause that's a glorious feeling when a character clicks.
It actually is super weird, but I feel this way too. As someone that never really played much of season 1 at all,(At this point Ive played more of SFV season 2 than season 1) SFV oddly feels closer in line to SF4 in that the footsie game takes a back seat to the oki and setup game.
It's just strange because I remember their end goal with SFV was to do the opposite of this.
GuileBootCamp
Member
I haven't noticed any problems because of it. If anything, I feel like I've gotten less accidental charge moves in footsies. There were some times in season 1 where I'd get an unwanted Flash Kick when trying to do forward sobats or UDK in neutral. Hasn't happened yet in S2. Could be less input error on my part, could be the charge buffer change, but SFV is the only game I can remember getting accidental Flash Kicks in since vanilla SF2.
I'd wager it was changed because of how short the charge times are in SFV relative to other games.
I have still gotten 1 or 2 of the wierd turn around Sonic Booms when trying to jab a crossup, though.
Overall, given how many command normals Guile has, I think I prefer the tighter charges. I can't really speak for any other charges characters right now, though. FANG definitely feels worse now, but for completely unrelated reasons, and I haven't put any time into the others this season.
Omnistalgic
Member
First impression is right though...Urien, Laura, Mika, etc...lot of the 50/50 characters seem to have stronger tools now while the game still somehow feels slower. And it seems like certain weaker characters didn't'really get buffed right, where's the Gief army? lol
Just from a gameplay perspective, I'm not feeling it that much, especially the DP changes. I don't mind using meter, but a friggin deep AA DP shouldn't trade, and jabs should get beat by heavy jump-ins like 100% of the time. I don't know why Capcom nerfed jab AA instead of just removing them, they seem so out of place and silly to me.
lucebuce12
Member
I believe they changed it for 2 reasons.
One, as you mentioned, is to allow command normals to come out without having to worry about charge moves coming out instead.
Second is to remove the (probably) unintended side effect of command normals being comboable/cancellable into d+u charge moves, like Urien's f+mp into headbutt or Alex's st.mp into stun gun.
TheSpoiler
Member
On the jab AAing thing, yeah, it's not fun to get by them, but Capcom wasn't going to remove that shit out right. It just got nerfed so it wouldn't bop crossups (as much). It's not perfect, but it's not nearly as reliable as it used to be. It's pretty similar to the previous games IIRC.
And in its place, the better AA options across the board give you a better reason to not rely on jabbing when you can get better damage by putting someone in a juggle state or AAing them all day.
I think, for a lot of the changes are shit we have to see them in extensive practice and real matches. That's real dangerous for players waiting to play in CPT with money on the line, but it's no less or more than things were in previous games with their patches. Nobody "gets" it in the first few weeks, even with SFV being more basic than other SF games.
Like, for jabs, who gives a fuck if I'm still getting hit by jabs out of the air? I should change my angles, but at the same time, maybe it's just not fun to get bopped by jabs sometimes. And characters like FANG, Alex, and Nash might have some secret ass tech but how much is that going to change in the enjoyability of playing the characters when it's a bigger uphill battle for characters that don't deserve it.
So, we'll see what happens. I think once people start focusing on the individualizes of the changes things will either look better, or look worse. Right now we are too embroiled in Akuma combos and battling the Laura army. I'm real curious to see how this game shapes up in the next month or so.
Gief did get buffed though. Like, enough to be mid tier.
And like I said, for the AA jabs, that's a thing that's been in all SF games barring maybe 2 IIRC. Your hitbox needs to be over the jab box for you to win, so spacing needs to be considered, and it'd technically risker for most to keep jabbing you when you can just land a heavy combo. Again, that being enjoyable is up to the player to decide, because it'd require you to know the hitbox of your character. But I don't think you can fully remove jabs as an AA options, just make it less reliable.
And in its place, the better AA options across the board give you a better reason to not rely on jabbing when you can get better damage by putting someone in a juggle state or AAing them all day.
I think, for a lot of the changes are shit we have to see them in extensive practice and real matches. That's real dangerous for players waiting to play in CPT with money on the line, but it's no less or more than things were in previous games with their patches. Nobody "gets" it in the first few weeks, even with SFV being more basic than other SF games.
Like, for jabs, who gives a fuck if I'm still getting hit by jabs out of the air? I should change my angles, but at the same time, maybe it's just not fun to get bopped by jabs sometimes. And characters like FANG, Alex, and Nash might have some secret ass tech but how much is that going to change in the enjoyability of playing the characters when it's a bigger uphill battle for characters that don't deserve it.
So, we'll see what happens. I think once people start focusing on the individualizes of the changes things will either look better, or look worse. Right now we are too embroiled in Akuma combos and battling the Laura army. I'm real curious to see how this game shapes up in the next month or so.
Gief did get buffed though. Like, enough to be mid tier.
And like I said, for the AA jabs, that's a thing that's been in all SF games barring maybe 2 IIRC. Your hitbox needs to be over the jab box for you to win, so spacing needs to be considered, and it'd technically risker for most to keep jabbing you when you can just land a heavy combo. Again, that being enjoyable is up to the player to decide, because it'd require you to know the hitbox of your character. But I don't think you can fully remove jabs as an AA options, just make it less reliable.
Omnistalgic
Member
wow...yeah, thought it was just me and not really liking the new Ken changes all that much but also not gravitating to a new character. Yeah, something about this just feels like tweaks for the sake of tweaks. I was expecting immediate improvement, the changes thus far feel like something I just have to get used to, but aren't necessarily better.
- AA Jab completely gone, you use your AA normals or DP
- Neutral game boosted, give everyone good pokes and good safe on block normals
- Speed the game up or at least give us a Turbo 1 & Turbo 2 option for fun
- Buff clearly weaker characters like Gief, Alex, Fang
- Take out Derpy stuff like Ken's air Tatsu being so hard to punish, Mika's clap (Success!)
- Bring cooler outfits and not this silly stuff (why isn't the Gouki outfit everyone wants free?)
- Bring the SP stuff (or at least start it) for the casual audience
- Adjust ranking to better reward dedication instead of purely skills and winning streaks
Guess I was expecting too much? lol
This has always been a thing in SF, though. :/
I used to love styling on people by doing s.hp into flashkick super, or s.mk into stomps in SF3.
Most of the changes sounded like they were trying to get rid of the setplay (especially the throw and vreversal changes, extending hitboxes on some moves and adding frames to the end of them would help whiff punishes), but it's definitely still there. Not that I mind it as much as some, but I was looking forward to what I thought would be a new emphasis on neutral.
I still love the game, but I have no interest in relearning stuff ingrained into muscle memory. I'm banking on a new character or two that I love now to keep me playing this game.
Yeah, this.
TheSpoiler
Member
Capcom should have outlined what they were going to do in this update. I honestly thought they were going to add more v-stuff in general, and now it feels as if the game has reached the peak of what V was supposed to be. 2.0 is a good way of putting it, but it's not a complete revamp like some were expecting. I personally love it because I can't wait to see the variance, I love seeing actual combos come out, and the gameplay of SFV has always been my favorite. But from a general aspect, it's not big enough to, say, have things like red focus or whatever.
lucebuce12
Member
Honestly, who knows what goes through the minds of the devs.
Another thing that kinda irks me to be honest, is the fact that regular DPs are still CCable. Personally, I think only EX DPs should be CCable.
Omnistalgic
Member
As a Ken loyalist, the only character I genuinely used that gave me almost as much satisfaction was Sakura and Fei long. I'm hoping a new character gives me the spark as well, some of the changes really have me feeling like "huh?" Wasn't everyone complaining about jab AA? If I jump on you with a heavy where the animation has the character lunging forward with his fist extending downward and you beat it with a quick little jab? It just doesn't make sense animation wise or gameplay. Karin seems to have buffed neutral game though, and I think Chun is still in tact. Hmm...I dunno, it feels like Guile is perfect, that's what the character is supposed to do, supposed to be a wall, if your defense is good, he's tough to beat. I feel like Capcom nailed him, nailed Chun (just had to tweak her derpy stuff) nailed Nash, etc...and I figured the goal would be to just "nail" everyone. I thought I really wouldn't see many nerfs in S2, because no one felt unbeatable.
Agreed. I thought them being CC on block was because of their invincibility. Without that, why?
Of course, I play Guile and as such am 1. biased and 2. thought this since Guile came out, lol.
I don't even think EX ones should be CC on block because the cost is so expensive now. Regular DPs that can be beat by a damn throw definitely shouldn't be CCable.
lucebuce12
Member
I don't play a character with an invincible reversal and even I think that it's a bit too much lol.
Though you are right though that a bar of meter is still a hefty cost. I feel like they've pushed themselves into a corner with this whole situation and now DPs in general just don't feel worth it anymore as a reversal/interruption option.
Omnistalgic
Member
yeah, it does seem really steep when they've lost the "get off me" factor.
Still the AA trade thing just irks me...it doesn't happen all the time, but the first time a deep AA DP got stuff by a normal I felt like someone just robbed me lol...
It's just not right Capcom...
It just aint
You jumped, I reacted with a SRK motion, I win! No compromises...
- Status