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Street Fighter V |OTVI| The More I Know, The Worse I Play
- Thread starter Reizo Ryuu
- Start date
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Karin beats Nash's jump cross-up clean with a jab. I don't really feel motivated to keep playing this game anymore, Nash was the only character that clicked with me and his changes are really annoying, I can feel them impacting my gameplan.
dunno why DPs should be special about this; fireballs can be blocked or traded with or jumped, charge attacks can be traded with, command grabs don't grab when the opponent is in hitstun OR blockstun but somehow DPs are sacred things that should be effective 100% of the time?
if you didn't time or space correctly, they should be hit
git gud
stn
Member
Eh, mediocre players ruined some good things in SF with their whining. IMO, SF4 brought in some of the worst fundamental players I've ever seen. And some parts of the game encouraged jumping and less ground-based gameplay. As a result, shitty players get irked when they're not allowed to jump in for free. And Capcom caters to them because it doesn't want to alienate a part of the fanbase.
Good AA's are essential to promoting good ground-based fighting. The mere threat of an AA should encourage one to use pokes properly and make calculated jumps, as opposed to just jumping in repeatedly until it works. I'd even wager to say that good AA'ing is a crucial factor in elevating a player from decent to very good. And its quite difficult - as evidenced by the fact that even Ryu players were resorting to st. jab because it was much easier than doing the SRK.ElFly said:
If you're a character who solely relies on grounded pokes to setup an AA, your AA should probably be invincible. Ryu is a good example of this, he lives and dies by straight-forward poking and AA'ing. There is nothing ambiguous about his gameplay and he has zero gimmicks to rely on. USF4 Bison is an example of a character who didn't need an invincible AA because he was excellent at covering ground and controlling space in other ways.
Though I do like the fact that DP's are not an instant reversal option now. Gives more options to grapplers and characters in general, which essential in this game since its not very heavy on cross-up oki.
lucebuce12
Member
UGGGHHHH, That necalli j.mk is like my Kryptonite. I swear it crosses up and then lands on the same goddamn side. So annoying.
Time was that a deep DP was "timed right" and a sign of using it properly.
CountBlack
Member
I kinda understand DP's keeping the CC state because they're invincible after frame 3, so if someone is doing a blockstring that isn't too tight you can still let them jawns fly when you're shook.
I do agree that they should never lose to jump-ins though. Even if you do it early or deep, it should always win. At least the MP DP's.
I do agree that they should never lose to jump-ins though. Even if you do it early or deep, it should always win. At least the MP DP's.
TheSpoiler
Member
Let's talk about Ken's j.fp.
Omni is still getting hit by AA jabs. Looking at the S1 frame data (I don't know how much that has changed in S2, so forgive me), the actual hitbox is wedged inbetween a long hurtbox and one placed sorta by his elbow and rib area.
Alright, now let's bring Ryu's AA jab into the mix.
His is now currently part of his shoulder and a little bit infront of him. The rest of his body is free game.
So for Ken, you'd need to smash him in the head area and commit deeper than, say, jumping right in front of him. The risk reward for you is getting jabbed or landing a pretty damaging combo, meter or no. The risk reward for him is mashing out is knocking you out of the air or eating lots of damage. And that's if he timed it correctly.
So for the Ken player, you'd need to just space yourself deeper to hit that j.FP every single time and adjust. This is applicable to crossups as well - it's the hurtbox that people need to consider as well as the hitbox, in conjunction to the jab. What it looks like on a 2D character is almost always wrong in terms of those two things.
That's at least how it was explained to me and how I understood it. Again, whether or not this is fun for players is up to the individual person. I think we'll see less and less since you get better damage off other AA options anyway, and the trade off isn't as good as it used to be. You can still get something decent off jabs but it's not the cure all fix it was in S1 for some characters.
Edit: I think many of the complaints could be curbed if Capcom put in a framedata viewer in their game. People aren't going to understand how things operate if they can't see it, and visually speaking, how is anyone suppose to know that an elbow can beat out a heavy punch clean without looking at the hit and hurtboxes? And secondly, since Prima Guides and other places haven't put out anything on frames (besides a few people on Twitter, but I'm talking about things like an actual image instead of numbers lol), people can't see where things should hit properly. I don't blame them for getting frustrated, and it's slowing the learning of these characters.
Omni is still getting hit by AA jabs. Looking at the S1 frame data (I don't know how much that has changed in S2, so forgive me), the actual hitbox is wedged inbetween a long hurtbox and one placed sorta by his elbow and rib area.
Alright, now let's bring Ryu's AA jab into the mix.
His is now currently part of his shoulder and a little bit infront of him. The rest of his body is free game.
So for Ken, you'd need to smash him in the head area and commit deeper than, say, jumping right in front of him. The risk reward for you is getting jabbed or landing a pretty damaging combo, meter or no. The risk reward for him is mashing out is knocking you out of the air or eating lots of damage. And that's if he timed it correctly.
So for the Ken player, you'd need to just space yourself deeper to hit that j.FP every single time and adjust. This is applicable to crossups as well - it's the hurtbox that people need to consider as well as the hitbox, in conjunction to the jab. What it looks like on a 2D character is almost always wrong in terms of those two things.
That's at least how it was explained to me and how I understood it. Again, whether or not this is fun for players is up to the individual person. I think we'll see less and less since you get better damage off other AA options anyway, and the trade off isn't as good as it used to be. You can still get something decent off jabs but it's not the cure all fix it was in S1 for some characters.
Edit: I think many of the complaints could be curbed if Capcom put in a framedata viewer in their game. People aren't going to understand how things operate if they can't see it, and visually speaking, how is anyone suppose to know that an elbow can beat out a heavy punch clean without looking at the hit and hurtboxes? And secondly, since Prima Guides and other places haven't put out anything on frames (besides a few people on Twitter, but I'm talking about things like an actual image instead of numbers lol), people can't see where things should hit properly. I don't blame them for getting frustrated, and it's slowing the learning of these characters.
I know what jawn is because of Creed.
Never heard it before that, lol.
https://twitter.com/FightGamePros/status/813575560039370752
Relevant.
problem with that is that it gives it too good properties on wakeup and on the ground
DPs should not be a meterless, damaging, comboable, get-off-me, instant, invincible, unthrowable move, that also is a good AA
at best they should be like...two or three of those things
I never got why the invincible one should be MP; other than Ken (who's HP DP is for combos) it should be HP the invincible one
maybe they should lose their CC status now; maybe keep it for the invincible one
I mean...I agree. But I think the problem here is that you listed AA last. A DP should be the best AA first and foremost.
Ok and some kind of bullshit just happened with my points.
First match: It ends, I win it and suddenly we both are rookies and I go from 0 to 65 LP.
Second match: It ends, my opponent won and suddenly we're back to our previous LP, only this time the 65 I had won weren't counted, so it was as if I had lost the first match.
Third match ends: I won and get my points but still the first match hasn't been considered.
As if I needed less motivation to play SFV now...
Edit: Uploading a vid right now, should be up in 30 mins.
First match: It ends, I win it and suddenly we both are rookies and I go from 0 to 65 LP.
Second match: It ends, my opponent won and suddenly we're back to our previous LP, only this time the 65 I had won weren't counted, so it was as if I had lost the first match.
Third match ends: I won and get my points but still the first match hasn't been considered.
As if I needed less motivation to play SFV now...
Edit: Uploading a vid right now, should be up in 30 mins.
Unless you see error 80001 pop up at some point, the points counted. They're just not always updated immediately when the servers start acting wonky again. Common issue. I've had my Fight Money go -180k all the way to 0 at the end of a match because of this stuff.
Secret Character
Member
I know I probably sound like an old record saying this, but look at DPs for Super Turbo. They were exactly this. Meterless, (somewhat) instant, projectile invincible, moves that were pretty good. They weren't the end-all anti-air and they could certainly be traded with in certain instances. The next closest version of these kind of DPs was in Alpha 2, where they got a little bit of their invincible properties back.
SFIV really cranked the DP to 11 and turned them into these crazy omni-reversals that had a gigantic hitbox and could be comboed off of for huge damage. It's made a lot of '09ers think that this is the way DPs should be.
Just checked my Ranked matches log and it recorded the match as if our LP was 0 so I'm probably SOL. Logged back in and I'm still sitting at the wrong amount of LP. This is just freaking laughable.
DP's in ST had most of those properties tho. They were instant, had a lot of invincibility(they werent just projectile invincible), and had amazing hitbox. You could trade, but never from a deep DP attempt. They definitely were the end all AA.
Only thing is that the buffer to get them out was very small,(there was no buffer at all iirc, so your reversal timing had to be exact) so it was a real risk to attempt to use it as a get off me move. Doubly so because the input had to be precise, vs now where your input can be messy and still get a DP out.
good AA doesn't mean absolute AntiAir
again, other special moves don't fulfill their purpose unerringly. fireballs can be jumped, as can grabs, and grabs miss, even when the opponent is right next to the grabber, if the grabee is in hit/block stun
problem is that DPs AA cannot be blocked and thus they need to be toned down. if this was Alpha 2, DPs would be able to be blocked if you did them too early (cause A2 allowed air to air jump blocking, but not air to ground jump blocking), and thus they would keep their early invulnerability properties (cause if you hit deep, the shoryuken would still be considered grounded and thus unblockable). but alas, no air blocking in V, so the solution now is the reverse; make deep DPs not as good.
I think part of this is an historical "nerfing" of jumping. Jumping has always been a risky proposition in SF, but there's not really a reason why they should be. It's like saying that crouching should be risky. It is just another movement option, it should be viable. so to go with this, AAs cannot be omnipotent anymore. Jumping is still risky, but it is not crazy
I think the 2 series had, bar none, the best DPs. ST even nerfed them a little by making them not completely invincible (some still were)
In Alpha 2 they could be air blocked once they left the ground (IIRC?) which made deep DPing the proper way to AA. but they were still really good outside of AA
I too think that IV skewed the perceptions of what SF should be
GuileBootCamp
Member
Yeah, Guile feels pretty perfect now, and maybe the best representation of Combofiend's mission statement about maximizing what makes the characters unique. He lost some stuff, but it was mostly things that felt very un-Guile (like frame trap 50/50 Crush Counter setups) and the things that make him Guile were emphasized, like Upside Down Kick being awesome and his AA tools being improved, especially air throw.
There's no fluff in his moves etc. Everything has an identifiable purpose, and anot appropriate level of risk and reward for what the character is designed to do. I could see Boom damage being nerfed back to 50 and Knee Bazooka being nerfed to -4 or -5 on block, but hopefully he doesn't change much in future versions.
I think Capcom should look at the mentality behind how Guile was balanced, and how those changes were received, as a reference for what to do for all characters in future seasons.
Gunslinger
Member
What you guys think ?
https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/dec/27/should-street-fighter-5-receive-another-balance-patch-start-2017-pro-tour-certain-prominent-players-express-it-should/#comments
another patch or no? most seem to agree that another patch is needed.
https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/dec/27/should-street-fighter-5-receive-another-balance-patch-start-2017-pro-tour-certain-prominent-players-express-it-should/#comments
another patch or no? most seem to agree that another patch is needed.
Secret Character
Member
This is exactly the trade, though. Safe jumps were harder because of the fear of the dreaded deep reversal DP. For the user, you couldn't just throw out DPs like crazy because of how much smaller the hitbox was while grounded and how tight your inputs had to be in order for it to come out at all.
I bring up SFIV again and how it ruined DPs for everyone.
Edit: Oh, and CvS2 DPs were also really crazy good. How could I forget how insane some of those were...
TheSpoiler
Member
See, adjusting a few things wouldn't hurt. Like maybe focusing on Alex and FANG and really normalizing things. They are already on a pretty good route here, so a handful of changes for certain characters isn't going to damage the game.
As for a huge patch? I'm wary of that. Fighting games need to breathe. People calling for changes this early is a dangerous thing. It's a reactionary thing, and while sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it can lead to nerfing or buffing stupid shit on kneejerk reactions.
Edit: Like people saying a character is useless in this game is so weird to me. It's an uphill battle for certain characters now that they got hit, but this is nothing compared to the gulf that was in other games. Jojo HftF was real bad about this. Rubber Soul was legit trash.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Millia from guilty Gear makes Lauras mixups look comically poor.
lucebuce12
Member
Tbh the main reason I exclusively play SFV is because everyone else I know only plays this.
But there are so many Fighting games coming out in 2017, I see that changing very soon.
Between Injustice 2, Tekken 7 and MAHVEL, it's gonna be tough(er) for this game.
Honestly, I wish they just went back to the ST model for DP's. Really good as an AA, risky for everything else. Those that like to have their get out of jail free card when being pressured still have it, but it's a real risk and you have to actually put in work with your timing to have any sort of consistency.
...Your avy. No more FANG?
GuileBootCamp
Member
I wouldn't be against it if it was changed very conservatively. I think the bigger issue is probably that the DLC characters were coming out too late in the season, and the changes were being worked on too early, and the meta never had a chance to really solidify.
Two potential solutions would be to:
1. Make sure all of the DLC characters are released within the first half of the season, and then just release stages, costumes, new modes, and quality of life updates for the rest of the year.
or
2. Have a mid-season patch in addition to the pre-season patch.
I think any more than two balance patches a year would probably cause the competitive scene to erode a bit, though.
problem is that the current model is too conservative tho; waiting until next year CPT ends for another round of changes is crazy times too
mid season patch would be best, tho I'd still think that a S2 "errata" patch should happen before that
I think a big problem is that DLC characters normally will have to wait a full year for balance, and that can render them completely useless for a year (see: S1 DLC chars, mostly outside of Guile) but also doesn't make sense to rebalance them mid year, just as they were launched
Yeah, but Guilty Gear has a large number of defensive options, while SFV has few.
So here's the video of the LP bug I mentioned in the previous page:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LmkY8J7G4w
Look at my LP before the first match starts, and then how we both appear as rookies when the first match ends. I ended up never getting those points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LmkY8J7G4w
Look at my LP before the first match starts, and then how we both appear as rookies when the first match ends. I ended up never getting those points.
GuileBootCamp
Member
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more a mid-season patch seems like the best solution, even if it would have to exclude that season's DLC characters.
It's impossible to balance all characters....
....that being said, if some were even or top tier, the game would not be fun for a lot of people. It would not surprise me at all if they have in mind to never make Zangief or Fang top tier.
Mika was probably a mistake. We'll see how Laura goes
.
....that being said, if some were even or top tier, the game would not be fun for a lot of people. It would not surprise me at all if they have in mind to never make Zangief or Fang top tier.
Mika was probably a mistake. We'll see how Laura goes
.Ya, but SFV isn't Guilty Gear.
It's impossible to balance all characters....
....that being said, if some were even or top tier, the game would not be fun for a lot of people. It would not surprise me at all if they have in mind to never make Zangief or Fang top tier.
Mika was probably a mistake. We'll see how Laura goes
SSF4 was really well balanced, IMO. Then Arcade Mode came along and...yeah......
Smash 4 is probably the most balanced fighter out there, especially when you consider the roster size.
Ladies run the game now; Laura, Cammy and Chun. Always Chun.
lucebuce12
Member
He's still in the pocket but as it stands, not gonna use him all that much. He just isn't FUN in this version for some reason.
It's impossible to balance all characters....
....that being said, if some were even or top tier, the game would not be fun for a lot of people. It would not surprise me at all if they have in mind to never make Zangief or Fang top tier.
Mika was probably a mistake. We'll see how Laura goes
I think they will never make gief top tier cause it'd traumatize they beginner peeps
but that doesn't mean characters should have 7-3 MUs or worse. at least attempting to address the crazy bad MUs should be an objective. instead we get random nerfs to Fang and Alex
which is a huge problem cause in S1 most were useless the whole season. I think Guile was viable? and that's it
maybe the mid season patch can be something that mostly touches with nerfs/buffs the new characters. if only to balance the one or two guys that are gonna be launched in Q1 2017, who'd have to otherwise wait until late 2017 to be reasonable
I honest think that the S1 characters were intentionally weak because they didn't want to patch them mid year, and could not risk them being OP
Nemesis121
Member
Yes to a new patch, the balance of this game is pure shit...
CountBlack
Member
Some DP's were a poke in ST breh
I can still pull this off in training like 5% of the time iin s2 fwiw, so it's not totally gone.
TheSpoiler
Member
A 7-3 matchup isn't bad lol it's still largely dependent on the game. There is no fighter where the matchups are equal across the board, or even close. Some characters are just better at fighting others.
Some people want their character to have everything and be great at everything. And if you plan to play competitively, you should think about counterpicking in general in SFV if you can't make that shit work every time.
Okay are you the new KingBroly now or...
Some people want their character to have everything and be great at everything. And if you plan to play competitively, you should think about counterpicking in general in SFV if you can't make that shit work every time.
Okay are you the new KingBroly now or...
this is fine in person, but this is now a largely online game, and picking chars is not an option (because ???)
honestly I disagree counter-picking is good. that makes sense in versus games, or in KOF, but in a single char game, everyone needs to be viable. I'd rather have a bunch of 4-6s than a handful of 5-5s, a few 3-7s and even some 7-3s
that shit was ok back in the offline times, where gathering info about matchups was difficult
at least give me the chance to counterpick online
Karsticles
Member
How's that Season 2 Bison?
I would rather deal with Millia mixups because Guilty Gear makes you throw immune on oki, which means you just have to guess high or low and don't have to worry about teching.
LOL
I would rather deal with Millia mixups because Guilty Gear makes you throw immune on oki, which means you just have to guess high or low and don't have to worry about teching.
GuileBootCamp
Member
But then, if they balanced the season 1 characters too early, it might have been too reactionary and the characters could be over-buffed/nerfed before their capabilities are really understood. Guile was dismissed as being crap early in season 1, and wasn't really seen as viable until later on. Conversely, Urien was seen as viable from the get-go, but was only around for 3 months before getting some crazy buffs in season 2.
There probably isn't a solution that doesn't come with some drawbacks.
You don't approve?
This I'm getting to the point where i don't feel like playing SFV a lot recently and Capcom is not helping with their updates but i can't complain since i probably have over 150 hours of gameplay but i guess I'm ready to move to the next Fighting game once Tekken 7 is here.
Omnistalgic
Member
you obviously have no idea of what git gud implies if you've reached that conclusion. A deep DP on an airborne opponent is timing it correctly. What are you talking about?
Edit: I also don't agree with your gripe against DP's. Its the shoto basic strategy. It's why characters like Chun or Karin have superior normals. You can outpoke/combo the basic shoto formula of controlling horizontal and vertical screen position with FB * DP, sounds like you are just biased man. DP being all those things is not a huge problem. I mean, is the community really complaining about DP on wake-up and block strings in SFV? You lose half your health if your Srk is blocked, especially in the second round with a super or V-trigger stocked. lol...it's suicide to DP all the time regardless of character.
stn
Member
Why I like bad matchups: I've had tremendous difficulty in HDR and ST in the Cammy-Honda matchup. Still do, in fact. So I ended up learning Dee-Jay as a counter-pick just for Honda. I ended up liking the character so much that he's become a permanent staple in my selection pool (even in USF4). Might not have happened otherwise.
TheSpoiler
Member
Y'all talking about moving on to the next fighting game better actually do it. Not here, but other places were talking about supporting KOF hardcore and that shit is floundering compared to the mess people were spouting on my Twitter. "Oh dude I'm gonna get so good at the game oh dude."
Those people dropped that shit so hard. KOF deserves a lot more respect and play time. Hopefully 2017.
But honestly people should play more than one fighter as much as possible and venture out from the Capcom bubble. Even if its Marvel, I just want more people playing fighting games or continuing to do so, even if it's not my favorites like SFV or Gundam.
It'd help you in general from a perspective standpoint as well. Every fighter has its problems, and I feel like SFV got a lot of under-the-microscope picking because it was well over the most played fighter last year. I can tell you right now that Gundam has some real goofy shit that'd make SFV's goofy shit look tame. And that's just the way fighting games are, really.
Those people dropped that shit so hard. KOF deserves a lot more respect and play time. Hopefully 2017.
But honestly people should play more than one fighter as much as possible and venture out from the Capcom bubble. Even if its Marvel, I just want more people playing fighting games or continuing to do so, even if it's not my favorites like SFV or Gundam.
It'd help you in general from a perspective standpoint as well. Every fighter has its problems, and I feel like SFV got a lot of under-the-microscope picking because it was well over the most played fighter last year. I can tell you right now that Gundam has some real goofy shit that'd make SFV's goofy shit look tame. And that's just the way fighting games are, really.
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